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View Full Version : Dennis Byrne: Reinsdorf may be the best owner in Chicago's history


mweflen
05-02-2005, 12:18 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-0505020168may02,1,1620008.story

My mental state, of course, will be questioned by some of the newcomers to the press box. At least, they're newcomers to me. Because some haven't been around long enough to remember the hope that stirred in the hearts of Sox fans when he and Eddie Einhorn brought in Carlton Fisk soon after buying the club in 1981. Nor do they remember the empty seats during basketball games at the old International Amphitheater or the Coliseum. (Hell, they don't even remember those places.) Or when the White Sox became the first Chicago team to draw two consecutive seasons of more than 2 million fans.

Jurr
05-02-2005, 12:27 PM
weird. now i have seen everything.:supernana:

mweflen
05-02-2005, 12:30 PM
I believe ON2 referred to it as "Bizarro World." Sox atop ESPN standings (and even mentioned in about 4 articles on the front page), Chicago media lauding Reinsdorf...

Baby Fisk
05-02-2005, 12:35 PM
Someone should warn LipMan before he sees this and has a heart attack.

ma_deuce
05-02-2005, 12:36 PM
They won't forgive him closing Comiskey Park and building the "ball mall" (which is better than the old park and Wrigley combined).



The guy makes a lot of strong points. Still, I need a championship pennant before I forgive what happened in 1994.

wdelaney72
05-02-2005, 12:37 PM
:bong:


Considering the lack of championships across ALL Chicago teams, the bar is not set all that high.

When the White Sox win a WS title, I'll take his comment seriously.

TommyJohn
05-02-2005, 12:38 PM
Someone should warn LipMan before he sees this and has a heart attack.

You posted that before I had a chance.

voodoochile
05-02-2005, 12:41 PM
:bong:


Considering the lack of championships across ALL Chicago teams, the bar is not set all that high.

When the White Sox win a WS title, I'll take his comment seriously.

Well when you factor in the 6 the Bulls won, the case becomes stronger. Yes, got luck with MJ. Yes, he allowed the dynasty to end at least one year early. Yes, he also did whatever was necessary to keep MJ for the 6 that they did win, including paying him over $30M/year for the last 3 years of his career.

I do agree that the bar isn't set that high there have been some serious duds in the history of team ownership in the city's history.

mweflen
05-02-2005, 12:44 PM
Hmm... I may be part of the under-30 set, so perhaps as Dennis Byrne says, my opinion isn't to be weighed as heavily. But I just can't see my way to unabashedly loving Reinsdorf. I agree he isn't the demon we sometimes make him out to be...

Bulls: He lucked into Michael Jordan. That has to be said with regards to the Bulls. No Jordan, no 6 titles, no billions of $$$. It wasn't Reinsdorf's genius or benevolence that brought six titles here. It was luck, Jordan, a few supporting cast members, and not getting in the way too much. And any objective view of the Bulls has to take into account their break-up. After a two year retirement, Jordan went on to average 20-plus for the Wizards. What might have happened in 99 and 2000 had the team been kept together?

Sox: Every positive thing Reinsdorf has done is balanced by something incredibly negative. Buying the team and putting a competitive squad on the field in the 80s? Balanced by the Florida Sox debacle. Building Comiskey II? Balanced by turning it the wrong direction, cramming in too many luxury suites (70% empty, btw), and inflating prices to horrendous degrees (6th highest in majors). The good early 90s years? Balanced by pushing for a lockout and playing a big role in cancelling the 94 season. The White Flag trade. Now we seem to be back on an upswing, and the question that comes to me naturally is: What will Reinsdorf do to screw it up this time?

Appreciating Reinsdorf is like being a Star Wars fan and having to watch Episode 1 over and over. Except in this case, Nothing as cool as the original trilogy has ever happened, and Jar Jars pop up everywhere (Krause, Einhorn, Gallas).

Lip Man 1
05-02-2005, 12:50 PM
Give credit where credit is due. Uncle Jerry was the owner during six Bulls championships, three Sox divisional championships and 14 winnning seasons since the start of 1981.

Now to be fair you also have to look at the other side of the ledger board.

Uncle Jerry had nothing to do with drafting Michael Jordan...he was already in Chicago when he took control of the Bulls. He was part of (some say the architect) of collusion in the mid 80's which caused him to stop spending money after the 1983 season, he extorted a new stadium without spending one cent of his millions by threatening to move the team to Florida, he was the biggest nut cutter for management during the 1994 labor impasse and he authored the White Flag trade, drastically hurting his attendance for years. Also he claimed that 'Chicago has always been a Cubs-town,' which is a blatent lie and he knows it having lived in Chicago since 1957.

You'll have to judge for yourself although the point about Chicago not having any owners worth a damn in the first place is a valid one. I mean the McCaskey family? the Wirtz family? Bill Veeck?

Please.

Lip

BainesHOF
05-02-2005, 01:09 PM
Under Reinsdorf, the Sox have not won a home playoff game in 24 YEARS.

Under Reinsdorf, the Bulls chased away the best player in the history of the game, one of the most successful coaches in NBA history, saw their dynasty end a championship or two prematurely, and became a professional joke for years.

pudge
05-02-2005, 01:15 PM
saw their dynasty end a championship or two prematurely.

Man that is the biggest misconception that has become legend... both Jordan and Jackson wanted the ride to end. If they had wanted back, JR would have made it happen.

owensmouth
05-02-2005, 01:15 PM
The Reinsdorf ownership has lasted 25 years. If existance is success, then he's a winner.

Ol' No. 2
05-02-2005, 01:18 PM
Who the hell is Dennis Byrne?

gosox41
05-02-2005, 01:18 PM
Man that is the biggest misconception that has become legend... both Jordan and Jackson wanted the ride to end. If they had wanted back, JR would have made it happen.

No kidding. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy.



Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
05-02-2005, 01:23 PM
Who the hell is Dennis Byrne?

Why everyone knows Dennis Byrne is a Chicago area writer and consultant. What more do you need to know.

:tongue:

Dennis Byrne, a Chicago-area writer and consultant

Ol' No. 2
05-02-2005, 01:26 PM
Why everyone knows Dennis Byrne is a Chicago area writer and consultant. What more do you need to know.

:tongue:


Is this the same Dennis Byrne who has been writing op-ed pieces for the Trib? What makes him any kind of an expert on sports ownership? What a ridiculous article.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-02-2005, 01:29 PM
If this isn't the ultimate "World's Tallest Midget" contest, I don't know what is.

"Best Chicago Sports Owner?"
:roflmao:

For Pudge who thinks Reinsdorf is blameless for busting up the 6-peat Bulls, Jackson already announced he wouldn't come back and work with Jerry Krause before the 1997-98 season began. This was the time when Krause was telling anyone who would listen "organ-eye-zations win championships."
:roflmao: :roflmao:

Reinsdorf sided with his GM and both Jackson and Jordan walked... as Reinsdorf had to know they would... and the Bulls dynasty ended reigning champions, their sixth one, without even attempting a seventh.


Reinsdorf is plenty culpable for that.

Baby Fisk
05-02-2005, 01:40 PM
Reinsdorf sided with his GM and both Jackson and Jordan walked... as Reinsdorf had to know they would... and the Bulls dynasty ended reigning champions, their sixth one, without even attempting a seventh.


Reinsdorf is plenty culpable for that.

Am I missing something here? If the Sox won six championships in my lifetime, I'd find it hard to complain about not having a seventh. Or does each successive championship breed a kind of ne'er-be-satisfied attitude like that of Yankee fans? :?:

SpringfldFan
05-02-2005, 01:43 PM
Reinsdorf was lucky in getting Jordan? I remember that draft. Sam Perkins was also available at the time and was thought by many to be the one who should have been taken. It is not as if MJ was the only apple on a barren tree. Also, why haven't I read anything in this thread about Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Hodges Armstrong, Paxson, Kukoc and Cartwright?

SFF

flo-B-flo
05-02-2005, 01:46 PM
How's riensey's health? Usually when someone is sick and the end near certain "media" members will begin revising their stories.

Flight #24
05-02-2005, 01:49 PM
Reinsdorf sided with his GM and both Jackson and Jordan walked... as Reinsdorf had to know they would... and the Bulls dynasty ended reigning champions, their sixth one, without even attempting a seventh.


Reinsdorf is plenty culpable for that.

Of course, prior to all of that Reinsdorf & Krause tried to sign Jackson to a long-term deal, and he declined because he didn't want to coach into any potential rebuilding (whenever that happened to be). It was Jackson who wanted more power in the org and made a play for Krause's job. When JR sided with the guy who built a pretty strong set of teams around MJ and basically said "Phil, you're a coach, you coach here as long as you want", Jax said "buh-bye".

Interestingly, Jackson resurfaced in LA and within a few years Jerry West "retired" under a similar situation. Only to suddenly find himself "rejuvenated" a year or so later and take the job in Memphis of all places.

But yeah, it's JR's fault Phil left. He should have just shoed Krause in the nuts for building 6 titles around MJ because Jackson said so.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-02-2005, 01:50 PM
...why haven't I read anything in this thread about Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Hodges Armstrong, Paxson, Kukoc and Cartwright?


That's easy to answer. Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Hodges, Armstrong, Paxson, Kukoc and Cartwright win ZERO CHAMPIONSHIPS without Michael Jordan. The whole team was built around him and it still took six seasons for the Bulls to finally reach paydirt.

Anyone over age 30 is old enough to know there were serious concerns that the Bulls were such a dysfunctional franchise Michael Jordan's talent would go completely to waste playing in Chicago, not unlike another great player of that time Walter Payton. It was like this starting in 1985 and continued at least through 1989.

Knockoutinthepar
05-02-2005, 01:50 PM
I believe ON2 referred to it as "Bizarro World." Sox atop ESPN standings (and even mentioned in about 4 articles on the front page), Chicago media lauding Reinsdorf...

BIZARRO!
http://dailytitan.fullerton.edu/issues/fall_03/11_20/images/bizarro.jpg

Flight #24
05-02-2005, 01:53 PM
That's easy to answer. Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Hodges, Armstrong, Paxson, Kukoc and Cartwright win ZERO CHAMPIONSHIPS without Michael Jordan. The whole team was built around him and it still took six seasons for the Bulls to finally reach paydirt.

Anyone over age 30 is old enough to know there were serious concerns that the Bulls were such a disfunctional franchise, Michael Jordan's talent would go completely to waste playing in Chicago. It was like this starting in 1985 and continued at least through 1989.

The converse is also true. Jordan wins nothing by himself. And Krause didn't just build title teams, he built teams that should rank among the best teams ever. Krause/JR obviously needed Jordan, but MJ equally needed them (or the guys they put around him).

Baby Fisk
05-02-2005, 01:54 PM
BIZARRO!


Well bizarro done. :rolling:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-02-2005, 01:54 PM
Of course, prior to all of that Reinsdorf & Krause tried to sign Jackson to a long-term deal, and he declined because he didn't want to coach into any potential rebuilding (whenever that happened to be). It was Jackson who wanted more power in the org and made a play for Krause's job. When JR sided with the guy who built a pretty strong set of teams around MJ and basically said "Phil, you're a coach, you coach here as long as you want", Jax said "buh-bye".

Interestingly, Jackson resurfaced in LA and within a few years Jerry West "retired" under a similar situation. Only to suddenly find himself "rejuvenated" a year or so later and take the job in Memphis of all places.

But yeah, it's JR's fault Phil left. He should have just shoed Krause in the nuts for building 6 titles around MJ because Jackson said so.

Here's my short answer to all of this.

"Organ-eye-zations win championships."

Seven years later and we're still debating the nonsense of this statement?
:o:

If Jackson doesn't want to be part of rebuilding -- and Jordan says he walks if Jackson walks -- the choice is easy. Krause is kicked upstairs or otherwise shown the door. It's a no brainer.

"Michael Jordan wins championships." Seven never happened and Reinsdorf takes the hit for siding with Krause.

owensmouth
05-02-2005, 01:55 PM
Ultimately, I don't give a rat's behind about how the Bulls do. He gets judged by the success of the Chicago White Sox. He's done no better, and no worse, than the others.

So far the most successful have been Halas and the Old Roman. Nobody who has purchased a franchise in Chicago since 1925 has accomplished a damn thing of value.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-02-2005, 01:57 PM
The converse is also true. Jordan wins nothing by himself. And Krause didn't just build title teams, he built teams that should rank among the best teams ever. Krause/JR obviously needed Jordan, but MJ equally needed them (or the guys they put around him).

You can't make a steak dinner from hot dogs and ground beef.
:cool:

Jordan was the key. I'm speechless this hasn't become even more obvious in the wake of Krause's organ-eye-zational skills, 1998 to the present.

32nd&Wallace
05-02-2005, 01:57 PM
Here's my short answer to all of this.

"Organ-eye-zations win championships."

Seven years later and we're still debating the nonsense of this statement?
:o:

If Jackson doesn't want to be part of rebuilding -- and Jordan says he walks if Jackson walks -- the choice is easy. Krause is kicked upstairs or otherwise shown the door. It's a no brainer.

"Michael Jordan wins championships." Seven never happened and Reinsdorf takes the hit for siding with Krause.

Why is that nonsense? Would you feel comfortable with Micheal Jordan making personnel decisions?
What made you think because MJ is the greatest player in the game that he is also the greatest GM in the game.
Organziations DO win championships. No Jerry Krause - no Scottie Pippen, no Dennis Rodman, no Phil Jackson, no Horace Grant.

Flight #24
05-02-2005, 02:00 PM
Here's my short answer to all of this.

"Organ-eye-zations win championships."

Seven years later and we're still debating the nonsense of this statement?
:o:

If Jackson doesn't want to be part of rebuilding -- and Jordan says he walks if Jackson walks -- the choice is easy. Krause is kicked upstairs or otherwise shown the door. It's a no brainer.

"Michael Jordan wins championships." Seven never happened and Reinsdorf takes the hit for siding with Krause.

Except that wasn't Krause's quote, it's the out-of-context, sound bite version. What he actually said was (paraphrasing), "Players along don't win championships, organizations win championships". Crediting everyone. But the local mediots take it and twist it into "organizations win championships".

And as for "Jordan wins championships", it's interesting that that was never true until the right pieces were around him - either pre-1991 or post-1998. He needed the RIGHT guys around him, which is what Krause was good at finding.

Uncle_Patrick
05-02-2005, 02:03 PM
You'll have to judge for yourself although the point about Chicago not having any owners worth a damn in the first place is a valid one. I mean the McCaskey family? the Wirtz family? Bill Veeck?

Please.

Lip

This was my thought. I'm not a JR lover or hater, but when his competion in the "Best Owner in Chicago" is Bill Wirtz or the McCaskey's, he's gonna come out looking pretty good.

SpringfldFan
05-02-2005, 02:04 PM
That's easy to answer. Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Hodges, Armstrong, Paxson, Kukoc and Cartwright win ZERO CHAMPIONSHIPS without Michael Jordan. The whole team was built around him and it still took six seasons for the Bulls to finally reach paydirt.

Anyone over age 30 is old enough to know there were serious concerns that the Bulls were such a disfunctional franchise, Michael Jordan's talent would go completely to waste playing in Chicago. It was like this starting in 1985 and continued at least through 1989.

As has been just said, Michael couldn't have done it alone. Pippen himself was hailed as on of the 50 greatest back in the 90's (I don't know if I agree with that but you cannot deny his contribution). And yes, I am over 30. From the year they got MJ the team did progressively better in the postseason until they finally overcame Detroit to begin their dynasty. In fact, I am just old enough to recall what that franchise was like in the Gilmore years before the Reinsdorf/MJ era. Talk about a wasteland of a franchise!

Only in Chicago can an owner be deemed a failure for only winning six championships. I cannot believe we even have to have this argument.

SFF

32nd&Wallace
05-02-2005, 02:05 PM
One of the few things that irritates me on the site is all the JR bashing. WHY DONT ALL OF YOU TAKE A GOOD, LONG HARD LOOK AT WHERE THE BULLS AND SOX WERE BEFORE JR AND TELL ME WHAT YOU PREFER.....

Remember when JR and Eddie came in 1981 they were sort of Dan Snyder types. They were young and wanted to spent a lot of money. However, they also are businessman and have a responsibiltiy to their investors. Would you prefer him dumping money on marquee players like the Mets and/or Rangers?

Do you all long for the good ol days with Veeck and Allyn? Or when you would go to a Bulls game on any given night and buy courtside seats to watch Artis Gilmore?

You all start to sound like Cub fans when you go off on JR. Sox fans have no idea how good they have it with JR.

When you sell your million dollar real estate company to American Express and buy your two sports teams then feel free to critcize JR and his business judgment.

Frater Perdurabo
05-02-2005, 02:09 PM
You can't make a steak dinner from hot dogs and ground beef.
:cool:

The problem is that the surf and turf the owners of the Chicago sports teams feed to us fans is really just canned tuna fish with beef gravy. Consequently, the vertically challenged Reinsdorf (with a special thanks to his even more vertically challenged Bulls GM, Krause) wins the tallest midget contest.

Johnny Mostil
05-02-2005, 02:30 PM
Under Reinsdorf, the Sox have not won a home playoff game in 24 YEARS.

Which means they've won as many under Reinsdorf as they did in the 21 years before he bought the team--and only one less than they did in the 61 years before he bought the team.

Though I would agree with the tallest midget analogies . . .

Hitmen77
05-02-2005, 02:39 PM
Reinsdorf was lucky in getting Jordan? I remember that draft. Sam Perkins was also available at the time and was thought by many to be the one who should have been taken.
SFF

MJ was already on the Bulls before Reinsdorf bought the team. Does Reinsdorf get retroactive credit for the previous ownership drafting him?:?:

elrod
05-02-2005, 02:43 PM
Who the hell is Dennis Byrne?

An idiot.

Fake Chet Lemon
05-02-2005, 02:44 PM
What an HONOR to be declared better than Dollar Bill Wirtz! Count me as another "tallest midget" voter. Obviously he wasn't including the Wolves. Don Levin runs a tight ship. He actually expects to win championships.

munchman33
05-02-2005, 02:47 PM
Sorry guys, you know me. As president of ****, I have to do this.


:threadrules:

EDIT: Since when did the acronym for friends of uncle jerry become banned?

Hitmen77
05-02-2005, 02:48 PM
"...Or when the White Sox became the first Chicago team to draw two consecutive seasons of more than 2 million fans."

...and 22 years later, the Sox are desparately trying to get even ONE consectutive season of more than 2 million fans. Yeah, what a great owner! I love how he's helped build up our fan base.

Fenway
05-02-2005, 02:51 PM
Coming from a city that has had a horrific history with owners it shows how underperforming Chicago has been in its sports history.

Until Bob Kraft saved the franchise, the Patriots were the laughing stock of the NFL. Billy Sullivan and his sons did the impossible, took a $ 25,000 investment to form the AFL team and turned it into a $ 70 million dollar debt. Of course this happened because Chuck Sullivan thought he could outsmart Don King in the promotion of the Michael Jackson Victory Tour. Bad Move.

Then the Sullivans sold it to Victor Kiam who was even more clueless than Sullivan

The Red Sox? Tom Yawkey never won a World Series because he was a bigot. The Red Sox had Willie Mays SIGNED and the scout was ordered to pay Mays off and tear up the contract. They could have had Jackie Robinson too but....
The Bruins THE BRUINS had a black player before the Red Sox did.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:fWftxIsLsXcJ:nhl.com/photos/o/oree011701.JPG (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://nhl.com/photos/o/oree011701.JPG&imgrefurl=http://nhl.com/blackhistory/oreebio.html&h=170&w=170&sz=19&tbnid=fWftxIsLsXcJ:&tbnh=94&tbnw=94&hl=en&start=10&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwillie%2Bo%2Bree%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26 sa%3DN)

The Celtics? Had perhaps the best owner in their early years who risked everything to keep the team and the NBA from going under in Walter Brown and now is totally forgotten by David Stern and company. But Brown died suddenly and the Celtics have had many owners over the past 4 decades. In fact the Celtics franchise today is in legalspeek the old Buffalo Braves franchise and the orginal Celtics are the Clippers as owners traded franchises back in 1978.

The Bruins? Owned by one of the richest owners in all sports would be the worst in the NHL except for the guy at 1801 W Madison. White Sox fans make him rich every time they buy a dog or beer at The Cell, Jeremy Jacobs

Reinsdorf is not a great owner, but he is far from the worst.

voodoochile
05-02-2005, 02:58 PM
Why is that nonsense? Would you feel comfortable with Micheal Jordan making personnel decisions?
What made you think because MJ is the greatest player in the game that he is also the greatest GM in the game.
Organziations DO win championships. No Jerry Krause - no Scottie Pippen, no Dennis Rodman, no Phil Jackson, no Horace Grant.

Right and every single one of those players is lucky to have played with MJ. SP isn't half the player he becomes unless he follows MJ.

The point is that in 1999 with a 50 game schedule coming, JR could have told JK to take a back seat for a year - given him a paid vacation to go fishing with Tim Floyd or something and handed the reins of the team to Phil. Not MJ, Phil.

Most people believe that team could have come back and won a 7th pretty easily especially with a short schedule that would have left the aging veteran team fresher come playoff time.

voodoochile
05-02-2005, 03:00 PM
Reinsdorf is not a great owner, but he is far from the worst.

:dollarbill:
"Why are you looking at me?"

Flight #24
05-02-2005, 03:09 PM
Right and every single one of those players is lucky to have played with MJ. SP isn't half the player he becomes unless he follows MJ.

The point is that in 1999 with a 50 game schedule coming, JR could have told JK to take a back seat for a year - given him a paid vacation to go fishing with Tim Floyd or something and handed the reins of the team to Phil. Not MJ, Phil.

Most people believe that team could have come back and won a 7th pretty easily especially with a short schedule that would have left the aging veteran team fresher come playoff time.

1 - jackson has been quoted as saying that he thought MJ was retiring regardless

2 - whether that team would have won or not is questionable. They were getting fairly old, and had really struggled that last title. Yes, the short season would have helped them, but no guarantee on the title, unlike prior years

3 - In any case, that was the year in which MJ severed a tendon on the index finger of his shooting hand. He wouldn't have been able to play, and even if he gutted back onto the court, I highly doubt he'd have been effective offensively.

mdep524
05-02-2005, 03:19 PM
1 - jackson has been quoted as saying that he thought MJ was retiring regardless

2 - whether that team would have won or not is questionable. They were getting fairly old, and had really struggled that last title. Yes, the short season would have helped them, but no guarantee on the title, unlike prior years

3 - In any case, that was the year in which MJ severed a tendon on the index finger of his shooting hand. He wouldn't have been able to play, and even if he gutted back onto the court, I highly doubt he'd have been effective offensively. Three great points, which nobody ever talks about. Especially number 3.

wdelaney72
05-02-2005, 03:31 PM
Three great points, which nobody ever talks about. Especially number 3.

JR and Krause destroying the dynasty is the biggest Chicago sports myth I know of. Phil Jackson destroyed the dynasty. Not JR. Not Krause. If you do even a tiny amount of reading into this, it becomes blatantly obvious.

voodoochile
05-02-2005, 04:00 PM
JR and Krause destroying the dynasty is the biggest Chicago sports myth I know of. Phil Jackson destroyed the dynasty. Not JR. Not Krause. If you do even a tiny amount of reading into this, it becomes blatantly obvious.

Only because JR decided to back Krause and not Phil.

He had a choice in the matter, dump Krause keep the other guys.

I admit I forgot about the tendon thing. It certainly would have factored into the equation and not for the betterment of the Bulls.

But well before that happened, JR decided Crumbs was his guy and the ensuing 6 years are the result.

mweflen
05-02-2005, 04:03 PM
:hijacked: I guess I asked for it by mentioning the Bulls....

What are y'all's thoughts about JR and the Sox? :smile:

Ol' No. 2
05-02-2005, 04:05 PM
Only because JR decided to back Krause and not Phil.

He had a choice in the matter, dump Krause keep the other guys.

I admit I forgot about the tendon thing. It certainly would have factored into the equation and not for the betterment of the Bulls.

But well before that happened, JR decided Crumbs was his guy and the ensuing 6 years are the result.One of Reinsdorf's most familiar traits is his loyalty to the people working for him. Sometimes to a fault. This is an example. Without Krause it's very likely that the team would have stayed together at least another year and maybe more.

Still, it's kind of hard to rip a guy for loyalty...especially these days when employers typically show NO loyalty to their employees at all.

tebman
05-02-2005, 04:24 PM
One of Reinsdorf's most familiar traits is his loyalty to the people working for him. Sometimes to a fault. This is an example. Without Krause it's very likely that the team would have stayed together at least another year and maybe more.

Still, it's kind of hard to rip a guy for loyalty...especially these days when employers typically show NO loyalty to their employees at all.
That's very true. That's why JR kept Rob Gallas around so long, and why he was quoted as saying that Ron Schuler could have the Sox GM job for as long as he wanted. His devotion to his staff is truly admirable.

Having said that, I still carry this smoldering resentment over his very real threat to move the Sox to Tampa in 1988 unless he got a tax-funded new ballpark. His first choice was to move the Sox to Addison, where they would then have become like the Angels: "The Chicago White Sox of Addison, Brought to You by U. S. Cellular."

He's first and foremost a real-estate salesman. That's how he made his fortune and that's how he thinks. I still worry that one day the Sox will vanish to Portland or someplace the way the Colts left Baltimore in the middle of the night. I know, I know, it's irrational, but we were THISCLOSE to losing the Sox in 1988 when we thought it would never happen.

Back to my medication...:wink:

Johnny Mostil
05-02-2005, 04:33 PM
Having said that, I still carry this smoldering resentment over his very real threat to move the Sox to Tampa in 1988 unless he got a tax-funded new ballpark. His first choice was to move the Sox to Addison, where they would then have become like the Angels: "The Chicago White Sox of Addison, Brought to You by U. S. Cellular."



Given what I thought were Byrne's other views of the world, I was very surprised to see him so easily forgive Reinsdorf for that. Maybe I've misread the man (or, actually as of late, not read him at all) . . .

Gym Shoe
05-02-2005, 05:16 PM
When you consider the Bulls championships, yes, Byrne can easily make this point. But when you start talking about the White Sox (which I read into of course), and that JR might be the best of all time in Sox history, what kind of accomplishment are you praising? The White Sox have had arguably the worst owners of all time. Not believing the conspiracy theory known as "8 men out" (which a lot of people take for fact, not fiction), Charles Comiskey was the last good one ("good" meaning he won).

As you all know, though, who cares about what he does with the Bulls --- it's all about the Sox. If you win a championship, I believe you have a 10 year grace period. Sheesh, even the Bears won in 1985-86 ... and the Bulls won 6. F the Bulls! The focus should be on the White Sox. A friend of mine said if the devil approached him and said that for the next 25 years we would finish in last place, but this year we'll win the championship, he'd ask "Where do I sign?"

The point is this: Best in Chicago doesn't mean jack and lip can tell you that is evidenced by the huge payrolls the Sox have had over the years.

White Sox Randy
05-02-2005, 05:51 PM
I've said the same thing for many years to people. He's not saying that Reinsdorf is a tremendous owner. It's just that his reputation in Chicago is so bad, but if one gives it any thought.....he's better than anyone else we've had with the Sox or any other team - especially when you factor in his 6 Bull's championships.

DaleJRFan
05-02-2005, 05:51 PM
What are y'all's thoughts about JR and the Sox?

After seeing with my own eyes the absolute baseball palace that US Cellular field has become... and having absolutely the best time I've ever had at a baseball game this past saturday for Motown night / Fireworks... I have to say JR, or whomever pays for & plans these things... freakin' rules.

And that's all I have to say. Well, not really.

The Sox (whomever that could be specifically, JR, KW, doesn't matter) put together an exciting team to watch, in a fabulous ballpark with great food and other attractions. Do we see this on the North side? No way Jose. We see bad teams, the corporation that owns the team scalping its own tickets, falling concrete, parking and traffic nightmares, even more bad teams and "we'll get em next year".

Outside of not spending enough to compete with the Twins for the past 4 years, I think JR has done a great job providing for the fans. I can afford tickets, so I can't complain about prices... Are the Sox expensive compared to other teams??

mweflen
05-02-2005, 05:56 PM
Are the Sox expensive compared to other teams??

Yup. http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm?page=fci_mlb2005.cfm

Prices increased by 14% overall from last season, making us the 6th most expensive team in the majors to go see on a regular basis.

It might be justifiable if we also had the 6th highest payroll and the 6th best record in the majors. But I'd be begging the "Dead horse" graphic to say so. :D:

Johnny Mostil
05-02-2005, 05:59 PM
It might be justifiable if we also had the 6th highest payroll and the 6th best record in the majors. But I'd be begging the "Dead horse" graphic to say so. :D:

Nah . . . only because "we" have the best record in the majors right now . . .

Ol' No. 2
05-02-2005, 06:01 PM
Yup. http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm?page=fci_mlb2005.cfm

Prices increased by 14% overall from last season, making us the 6th most expensive team in the majors to go see on a regular basis.

It might be justifiable if we also had the 6th highest payroll and the 6th best record in the majors. But I'd be begging the "Dead horse" graphic to say so. :D:Would it make you feel better if the Sox DID have the 6th best record in the majors? All it would take is a small losing streak.

mweflen
05-02-2005, 06:04 PM
Would it make you feel better if the Sox DID have the 6th best record in the majors? All it would take is a small losing streak.

I wasn't clear. It might be justified if we had the 6th best record in the majors last season. :tongue:

Ol' No. 2
05-02-2005, 06:09 PM
I wasn't clear. It might be justified if we had the 6th best record in the majors last season. :tongue:Well, you were talking about THIS year's prices.:tongue::tongue:

mweflen
05-02-2005, 06:11 PM
Well, you were talking about THIS year's prices.:tongue::tongue:

Aha, but the price increases were announced before this season started! :tongue::tongue::tongue:

Ol' No. 2
05-02-2005, 06:16 PM
Aha, but the price increases were announced before this season started! :tongue::tongue::tongue:And they pay for THIS year's payroll, not last year's.:tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue:

mweflen
05-02-2005, 06:19 PM
And they pay for THIS year's payroll, not last year's.

AHA, but.... REINSDORF SUCKS! :tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue:

If we finish with a record in the top 6 in MLB (and of course I fondly hope for this), then I'll gladly eat crow and sing JR's praises. Well, I'll eat crow, anyway.:redneck

We've gone through several 10-15% price increases in a row for the past few years, and we're only now seeing the payroll increases to match.

thezeker
05-02-2005, 06:25 PM
AHA, but.... REINSDORF SUCKS! :tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue:

If we finish with a record in the top 6 in MLB (and of course I fondly hope for this), then I'll gladly eat crow and sing JR's praises. Well, I'll eat crow, anyway.:redneck

We've gone through several 10-15% price increases in a row for the past few years, and we're only now seeing the payroll increases to match.

When the White Sox draw over 2.4 million fans payroll will increase DRAMATICALLY!!!

THAT'S A FACT JACK!!!!!!!:cool: :cool:

mweflen
05-02-2005, 06:26 PM
When the White Sox draw over 2.4 million fans payroll will increase DRAMATICALLY!!!

THAT'S A FACT JACK!!!!!!!:cool: :cool:

Why 2.4? What do you know that we don't? JR, is that you?

thezeker
05-02-2005, 06:29 PM
Why 2.4? What do you know that we don't? JR, is that you?

Look at J.R's history. When the revenue comes into the ballpark he spends it.

We were among the highest spending teams when we were drawing well in the early 90's.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-02-2005, 08:17 PM
Only because JR decided to back Krause and not Phil.

He had a choice in the matter, dump Krause keep the other guys.

I admit I forgot about the tendon thing. It certainly would have factored into the equation and not for the betterment of the Bulls.

But well before that happened, JR decided Crumbs was his guy and the ensuing 6 years are the result.

The truth can be hurtful, especially for the likes of the Joe Mock-like thinkers who simply refuse to admit to the facts.

Jordan hurt his thumb AFTER Reinsdorf sided with Krause and watched Jackson and Jordan leave. Reinsdorf CHOSE not to pursue a seventh championship because he thought Krause was more valuable than his star ballplayer and coach.

And thus began the organ-eye-zation's new championship quest with Crumbs and Pink Floyd firmly in control "because we wouldn't wind up like the former champion Celtics who waited too long to retool and became laughingstock doormats."

Nope. The Bulls skipped their shot at becoming 7-time champions and became laughingstock doormats one if not several years early.
:roflmao:

The Wimperoo
05-02-2005, 08:23 PM
They should have been going for 9 if MJeff wasn't such a selfish douche, and decided he should quit on his teammates.

OKCidiot
05-02-2005, 08:24 PM
And they pay for THIS year's payroll, not last year's.:tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue:

Aren't they still paying Julio Cruz???

MUsoxfan
05-02-2005, 08:26 PM
They should have been going for 9 if MJeff wasn't such a selfish douche, and decided he should quit on his teammates.

Yeah, how dare he? There's no excuse for only 6 championships for this team in the 90's.

Ol' No. 2
05-02-2005, 09:10 PM
AHA, but.... REINSDORF SUCKS! :tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue:

If we finish with a record in the top 6 in MLB (and of course I fondly hope for this), then I'll gladly eat crow and sing JR's praises. Well, I'll eat crow, anyway.:redneck

We've gone through several 10-15% price increases in a row for the past few years, and we're only now seeing the payroll increases to match.How so? The team payroll for 2000 was $31M. This year's is about $72M.

owensmouth
05-02-2005, 09:42 PM
Okay, so who's better off?


Sox fans with 25 years of the Reinsdorf mob?

Cub fans with 24 years of the Tribune?

voodoochile
05-02-2005, 09:43 PM
They should have been going for 9 if MJeff wasn't such a selfish douche, and decided he should quit on his teammates.

i think what you really mean is...

:whiner::whiner::whiner: MJ QUIT ON ME! I DON'T GET TO WAVE MY TEAMS SUPERIORITY IN EVERYONE ELSE'S FACE! THAT SELFISH DOUCHE! HOW DARE HE HAVE HIS FATHER MURDERED! I DESERVE MORE CHAMPIONSHIPS! I...I...I...:whiner::whiner::whiner:

BainesHOF
05-03-2005, 02:56 AM
Man that is the biggest misconception that has become legend... both Jordan and Jackson wanted the ride to end. If they had wanted back, JR would have made it happen.

Why the heck do you think Jordan and Jackson didn't want to come back?!

I've never seen an owner so intent on allowing a dynasty to fall apart. Reinsdorf has always sucked the joy out of sports.

hose
05-03-2005, 07:20 AM
Someone should warn LipMan before he sees this and has a heart attack.

Looks like Lip's heart made it through this thread since he posted.

A dentist might be in order from grinding his teeth :redneck

ode to veeck
05-03-2005, 09:07 AM
The thing I really hold against JR is his Sox ownership is the lost of market share and mind set in one of the largest markets in the country, especially when you consider the relative position of Chicago in the local midwest, the Sox have missed great opportunities for fan base growth, and have actually declined relative to other MLB franchises under JR's now lengthy reign. He's abdicated (as spoken by his own mouth) Chicago to the Scrubs.

In particular, JR/EE's mind blowing TV deals and miscalculations magnified the media blunders trend starting by the Allyn's moving to unheard/unseen UHF. On top of that JR's personal style with the public and insulting PR moves, and then in the 90s, JR's role in the strike, mowed down fan loyalties like a two-stroke Lawn Boy.

As far as the Bulls go, MJ would not have won without the supporting cast, & even the early titles were not entirely attributable to Krause, as key acquisitions such as Horace Grant were pushed by Phil over Krause's objections as the first title squad was assembled, & it was Phil's architecting of the offense and key roles (the 3 point shooting guard, etc) that made the Bulls unique (make up unlike any other teams of their era).

In the end, Voodoo's right, an exhausted Jackson (then MJ by domino) would probably have stayed if JR would have been willing to loosen Krause's reins. Jordan was the best player of the last couple of generations, but would not have won titles without Phil's architecting scheme or Scotty's support.

Tallest midget contest? I'd call it the battle for Public Enemy #1.

Hangar18
05-03-2005, 09:35 AM
Dennis Byrne had me at "Jerry Rein$dorf best owner" .

gosox41
05-03-2005, 09:39 AM
AHA, but.... REINSDORF SUCKS! :tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue::tongue:

If we finish with a record in the top 6 in MLB (and of course I fondly hope for this), then I'll gladly eat crow and sing JR's praises. Well, I'll eat crow, anyway.:redneck

We've gone through several 10-15% price increases in a row for the past few years, and we're only now seeing the payroll increases to match.


Payroll has been going up by a similar persentage the last couple of years.


Bob

Hitmen77
05-03-2005, 10:08 AM
The thing I really hold against JR is his Sox ownership is the lost of market share and mind set in one of the largest markets in the country, especially when you consider the relative position of Chicago in the local midwest, the Sox have missed great opportunities for fan base growth, and have actually declined relative to other MLB franchises under JR's now lengthy reign. He's abdicated (as spoken by his own mouth) Chicago to the Scrubs.

In particular, JR/EE's mind blowing TV deals and miscalculations magnified the media blunders trend starting by the Allyn's moving to unheard/unseen UHF. On top of that JR's personal style with the public and insulting PR moves, and then in the 90s, JR's role in the strike, mowed down fan loyalties like a two- stroke Lawn Boy.

I agree 100%. Seems like alot of people here fail to understand how crippling these blunders has been to our franchise. Thanks to years of JR driving fans away (some of them driven away forever), we're left with a small fan base which means it's difficult for the Sox to draw well which means that the Sox payroll is limited which makes it that much harder to compete.

Yes, the Sox were in bad shape before JR took over, but at least we had a decent fan base. Cub fans were still in the majority when JR bought the Sox, but it was nothing like today's rampant Cub-mania and Cubs dominance. Remember, it was the Sox who gave the Cubs their 2 biggest draws Harry Caray and, later Sammy Sosa. JR also gets credit for having Comiskey II built as a generic modern stadium that further cemented the ridiculous notion that Wrigley is a shrine (gag!).

To JR's credit, I think the Sox have turned things around in the last few years and are actually starting to make good PR moves. I think the stadium renovations look great and are very encouraging. The Sox actually have a legitimate marketing chief. And, since the disasterous white flag trade, the Sox have at least attempted (not always successful) to make smart player moves. But, the damage has been done. It will take years for the Sox to rebuild their fan base - and it's possible that they may never be able to do it.

mweflen
05-03-2005, 10:13 AM
Payroll has been going up by a similar persentage the last couple of years.


Bob


BUZZZZZ, wrong. Payrol went up THIS YEAR, after staying static for several years prior. I guess JR had to sock away some money to pay for 2005's exorbitant payroll increase.

Flight #24
05-03-2005, 10:35 AM
As far as the Bulls go, MJ would not have won without the supporting cast, & even the early titles were not entirely attributable to Krause, as key acquisitions such as Horace Grant were pushed by Phil over Krause's objections as the first title squad was assembled, & it was Phil's architecting of the offense and key roles (the 3 point shooting guard, etc) that made the Bulls unique (make up unlike any other teams of their era).

In the end, Voodoo's right, an exhausted Jackson (then MJ by domino) would probably have stayed if JR would have been willing to loosen Krause's reins. Jordan was the best player of the last couple of generations, but would not have won titles without Phil's architecting scheme or Scotty's support.



Huh? You contend that the 1987 drafting of Grant was "pushed through" by PJ, who didn't become head coach until 1990? I'm not even sure if he was an assistant in 1987, but even so if you really think a new assistant was running things in the draft room, well - I have a bridge to sell you. Krause made ALL the acquisitions. And as for the offense - it wasn't Phil's either, it was Tex Winter's (another guy targeted and brought in by Krause, NOT by Phil).

In the end, it came down to loyalty. JR had to choose between the guy who'd assembled most of the championship team from coaches to trainers to players, the same guy who'd commit to sticking around the organization through rebuilding, and the combo of Phil - who was 100% NOT going to stick around past MJ and who'd been fairly disloyal in politicking for more power in the org. And MJ wouldn't even guarantee that he'd come back if Phil did. And still - the offer was made to keep things together for another year and insert a buffer between Phil & Krause.

But no - they were supposed to hand over the power to Phil, a guy who wouldn't stay without it, but also wouldn't stay more than a year because he didn't want be part of rebuilding.

Flight #24
05-03-2005, 10:42 AM
BUZZZZZ, wrong. Payrol went up THIS YEAR, after staying static for several years prior. I guess JR had to sock away some money to pay for 2005's exorbitant payroll increase.

From USA Today

Sox Payroll on opening day:
2005: $75.178MM (13th in MLB) -->15% increase
2004: $65.212MM (15th) -->28% increase
2003: $51.010MM (22d)

voodoochile
05-03-2005, 10:43 AM
Huh? You contend that the 1987 drafting of Grant was "pushed through" by PJ, who didn't become head coach until 1990? I'm not even sure if he was an assistant in 1987, but even so if you really think a new assistant was running things in the draft room, well - I have a bridge to sell you. Krause made ALL the acquisitions. And as for the offense - it wasn't Phil's either, it was Tex Winter's (another guy targeted and brought in by Krause, NOT by Phil).

In the end, it came down to loyalty. JR had to choose between the guy who'd assembled most of the championship team from coaches to trainers to players, the same guy who'd commit to sticking around the organization through rebuilding, and the combo of Phil - who was 100% NOT going to stick around past MJ and who'd been fairly disloyal in politicking for more power in the org. And MJ wouldn't even guarantee that he'd come back if Phil did. And still - the offer was made to keep things together for another year and insert a buffer between Phil & Krause.

But no - they were supposed to hand over the power to Phil, a guy who wouldn't stay without it, but also wouldn't stay more than a year because he didn't want be part of rebuilding.

Ah good old Tex and his triangle offense. What a great and amazing concept it it. 3 guys set up in a triangle and then they give the ball to MJ who scores while the 5th guy gets the **** out of MJ's way. Tex was a genius, but the real genius was Phil for implementing the "get the **** out of MJ's way"... er... triangle offense...

Flight #24
05-03-2005, 10:47 AM
Ah good old Tex and his triangle offense. What a great and amazing concept it it. 3 guys set up in a triangle and then they give the ball to MJ who scores while the 5th guy gets the **** out of MJ's way. Tex was a genius, but the real genius was Phil for implementing the "get the **** out of MJ's way"... er... triangle offense...

Which differed from the Doug Collins "get the **** out of MJ's way" offense exactly how?:D:

voodoochile
05-03-2005, 10:49 AM
Which differed from the Doug Collins "get the **** out of MJ's way" offense exactly how?:D:

You didn't have Doug on the sideline yelling "get the **** out of MJ's way, you idiots!" which made it much less stressful on the team. Zen is a beautiful thing...

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2005, 11:01 AM
....
In the end, it came down to loyalty.

Here's a simple question for you to answer.

How many Michael Jordans are there?
:o:

Sorry. Krause doesn't command that kind of loyalty. You can replace Krause, or even (GASP!) push him upstairs while waiting for the championship dynasty to finally end.

It's a no-brainer sort of answer. An owner focused on winning, not loyalty, doesn't have any trouble solving what to do about his Jordan/Jackson/Krause "problem."

It's no problem at all.

Lip Man 1
05-03-2005, 11:51 AM
Hitmen and Ode To Veeck:

Your comments are spot on.

In regards to some fans here at WSI not understanding how much the PR disasters like SportsVision, Fisk, the 94 labor impasse and the 97 WFT hurt the team, that's because a number of them are younger and simply don't understand, because they weren't around.

PHG has my long story on Jerry Reinsdorf from the people who know him best. Perhaps that will shed some light on his 'history' to those simply to young to realize the implications of his decisions. George will begin to showcase it here on the site when he feels the time is right. I would encourage those fans, whether they agree or disagree with Jerry, to read it, if for no other reason then to get a better idea of Sox history over the past 25 years.

Lip

Maximo
05-03-2005, 12:02 PM
My initial reaction to the article is that even in $ 2,000 Claiming races, some horse has to win.

SoxSpeed22
05-03-2005, 12:09 PM
Hmm... I may be part of the under-30 set, so perhaps as Dennis Byrne says, my opinion isn't to be weighed as heavily. But I just can't see my way to unabashedly loving Reinsdorf. I agree he isn't the demon we sometimes make him out to be...

Bulls: He lucked into Michael Jordan. That has to be said with regards to the Bulls. No Jordan, no 6 titles, no billions of $$$. It wasn't Reinsdorf's genius or benevolence that brought six titles here. It was luck, Jordan, a few supporting cast members, and not getting in the way too much. And any objective view of the Bulls has to take into account their break-up. After a two year retirement, Jordan went on to average 20-plus for the Wizards. What might have happened in 99 and 2000 had the team been kept together?

Sox: Every positive thing Reinsdorf has done is balanced by something incredibly negative. Buying the team and putting a competitive squad on the field in the 80s? Balanced by the Florida Sox debacle. Building Comiskey II? Balanced by turning it the wrong direction, cramming in too many luxury suites (70% empty, btw), and inflating prices to horrendous degrees (6th highest in majors). The good early 90s years? Balanced by pushing for a lockout and playing a big role in cancelling the 94 season. The White Flag trade. Now we seem to be back on an upswing, and the question that comes to me naturally is: What will Reinsdorf do to screw it up this time?

Appreciating Reinsdorf is like being a Star Wars fan and having to watch Episode 1 over and over. Except in this case, Nothing as cool as the original trilogy has ever happened, and Jar Jars pop up everywhere (Krause, Einhorn, Gallas).Reinsdorf is now the best owner in Chicago by default! Both of his teams have had the most success. The Tribune keeps doing what they do with their revenues. The McCaskys are burning down the house that Papa Bear Halas built and DollarBill...I don't even need to go there. Hooray JR for not destroying what he runs!:bandance:

LVSoxFan
05-03-2005, 12:20 PM
I agree with the post where everything JR's done has been offset by something he's done that was incredibly stupid.

It's hard to like JR--even if you respect him--because he ain't exactly a people person. He's not like the Anaheim (sorry, LOS ANGELES) owner, where he came in, lowered prices, fixed the stadium and mingles with the fans. No, JR has always been the bean-counter man behind the curtain. Yeah, the Bulls got it done but look at the way that all ended, unnecessarily bitter.

To his credit, yes: the Sox and Bulls this year have been a welcome suprise. But none of that erases the fact that you come off as an anti-social jerk. Sorry, but that's the perception.

In JR's defense, in Chicago he is without a doubt the best owner. But we're in the city of worst owners ever: McCasky's are definitely #2 only behind the worst Chicago owner (and quite possibly one of the worst in sports history) ever: Bill Wirtz. What a tool. Hope you liked driving the NHL into extinction and soiling its oldest franchise, you jagoff!

mweflen
05-03-2005, 12:23 PM
The Angels example is a great one. Talk about revitalizing a franchise. Whaddaya know - they create big budget sections of the park (entire LD OF is $9 for adults with a $5 kids discount every day) and increase payroll to bring in top flight talent (Colon, Guerrerro) and whaddayaknow - people show up!

Ding ding ding, when will the light bulb go on with Reinsdork and crew?

Lip Man 1
05-03-2005, 12:24 PM
Sox Speed:

Just for the sake of discussion....

You say Reinsdorf hasn't destroyed his teams.

Have you seen the Bulls the past seven years?

With the exception of 1985 did you watch the Sox at all from 1984 through 1989? (Brought about because suddenly Reinsdorf decided to stop spending money and turned his attentions to extorting a new stadium with tax payer money)

How about 1995 through 1999? (With the exception of 1996.) When ownership decided to try to extract revenge on the MLBPA as well as 'tank' a season that made the Sox a national laughingstock and decimated their attendence.

Uncle Jerry has done some good things for the franchise...unfortunately his desire for revenge and vindictiveness have outweighed those good things as was posted earlier look at the market share of the Sox in 1981...now compare that to 2005.

"My word means everything to me and I have never, ever given a guy a second chance to get even with me."–Jerry Reinsdorf to Melissa Issacson. From the book ‘Transition Game’ by Melissa Issacson. Pg.79. Published 1994.

Ol' No. 2
05-03-2005, 01:17 PM
The Angels example is a great one. Talk about revitalizing a franchise. Whaddaya know - they create big budget sections of the park (entire LD OF is $9 for adults with a $5 kids discount every day) and increase payroll to bring in top flight talent (Colon, Guerrerro) and whaddayaknow - people show up!

Ding ding ding, when will the light bulb go on with Reinsdork and crew?Do you think that winning a WS in 2002 had just a teensy bit to do with the increased attendance?

mweflen
05-03-2005, 01:28 PM
Do you think that winning a WS in 2002 had just a teensy bit to do with the increased attendance?

Angels average attendance per game:

2001 - 24,702 (75-87)
2002 - 28,463 (99-63, WC, Won WS)
2003 - 37,791 (77-85)
2004 - 41,675 (92-70, ALDS)
2005 - 40,601 (15-11, leading division)

There was a bump to be sure after 2002, but that increased by 4,000 in 2004, the first year of their new pricing structure.

Flight #24
05-03-2005, 01:39 PM
Angels average attendance per game:

2001 - 24,702 (75-87)
2002 - 28,463 (99-63, WC, Won WS)
2003 - 37,791 (77-85)
2004 - 41,675 (92-70, ALDS)
2005 - 40,601 (15-11, leading division)

There was a bump to be sure after 2002, but that increased by 4,000 in 2004, the first year of their new pricing structure.

So Moreno and his "increased budget" actually followed the attendance increase, not preceded it.........what a concept!

mweflen
05-03-2005, 02:19 PM
So Moreno and his "increased budget" actually followed the attendance increase, not preceded it.........what a concept!

You're right - instead we should follow every attendance increase with a selloff of players and an increase in prices. It's worked so well for us in the past....

Ol' No. 2
05-03-2005, 02:37 PM
You're right - instead we should follow every attendance increase with a selloff of players and an increase in prices. It's worked so well for us in the past....When would that have been? I must have missed it.

Flight #24
05-03-2005, 02:44 PM
When would that have been? I must have missed it.

Just because it hasn't happened, why should that prevent anyone from acting like it did?

mweflen
05-03-2005, 03:25 PM
Just because it hasn't happened, why should that prevent anyone from acting like it did?

Damn straight! :D:

Please see: White Flag Trade. Please See: selloff of early 90's rotation.

Sheesh, it's like JR is lurking here. Next thing you're going to say is there was no deferred money in Maggs' contract offer.

Flight #24
05-03-2005, 03:39 PM
Damn straight! :D:

Please see: White Flag Trade. Please See: selloff of early 90's rotation.

Sheesh, it's like JR is lurking here. Next thing you're going to say is there was no deferred money in Maggs' contract offer.

historical payroll for Sox:

1993: 35.6
1994: 38.4
1995: 39.6
1996: 41.9
1997: 54.4

So that "selloff" of the 1990s rotation didn't involve a decrease in payroll (except in Hangar-esque terms!), they just didn't go out and resign guys to significantly increased deals. Remember - after '94, they actually went out and signed a couple of bigname guys in Navarro & Belle. Horrible decisions, but not JR's fault, look to Schueler/Himes for that blame.

As for the WFT, I don't believe attendance was improved over the prior year at the time. That's not to say that was a good move, but it's not the situation you allege it to be.

As as for Maggs deal - there were both deferred and non-deferred contracts, and the deferred one supposedly had a smaller % deferred than in the Mets deal for Beltran! Believe it or not.

But as I said, please don't let facts get in the way of a good rant!:cool:

Lip Man 1
05-03-2005, 03:51 PM
Flight:

One small point Himes had nothing to do with the signing of Belle and Navarro. He was gone by September 1990.

And in Belle's defense he was an ass but the numbers he put up more then justified his salary, that's more then can be said for Navarro.

'Roger Clemens is over the hill' -Ron Schueler.

LOL
Lip

Flight #24
05-03-2005, 03:57 PM
Flight:

One small point Himes had nothing to do with the signing of Belle and Navarro. He was gone by September 1990.

And in Belle's defense he was an ass but the numbers he put up more then justified his salary, that's more then can be said for Navarro.

'Roger Clemens is over the hill' -Ron Schueler.

LOL
Lip

LOL is right, or more to the point as a fan back then - :whiner: :whiner::angry: :angry: . But regardless, it's only JR's fault to the extent that he employed Schu. he certainly wasn't being cheap or cutting payroll in signing Fat-boy Jaime.

mweflen
05-03-2005, 04:33 PM
:tomatoaward

Flight,

The numbers can be interpreted many ways. It's not clear cut. I think the only thing clear-cut is the general impression (deserved or otherwise) that Reindorf is an ass and a tightwad.

Personally, I think the guy is frankly a little loony - not business-wise, because he obviously is doing well for himself, but in terms of personality. He holds weird grudges but also weird loyalties.

There's no arguing that his stewardship of the Sox has been less than successful. Two total playoff appearances just does not cut it. But then, I guess no one has really been consistently successful at the Sox' helm besides Charles Comiskey, who had the benefit of being a founder of the league and of no free agency to help him build teams.

My original point stands - nothing makes a fan base happier than reasonably priced seats (which we have precious few of) and spendy management (of which we have none).

Ol' No. 2
05-03-2005, 04:35 PM
...nothing makes a fan base happier than reasonably priced seats (which we have precious few of) and spendy management (of which we have none).I can think of one thing...

mweflen
05-03-2005, 04:37 PM
I can think of one thing...

Winning works, too. But it's usually preceded by one or both of the aforementioned. :tongue:

Ol' No. 2
05-03-2005, 04:39 PM
Winning works, too. But it's usually preceded by one or both of the aforementioned. :tongue:Not necessarily, but I'm NOT going to get into that again.

mweflen
05-03-2005, 04:41 PM
Not necessarily, but I'm NOT going to get into that again.

I did say "usually."

Come on, you don't want to beat the proverbial dead horse? Where's that graphic! :D:

Daver
05-03-2005, 04:43 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gif

mweflen
05-03-2005, 04:43 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gif

Schwing!:bandance:

Dan H
05-03-2005, 04:52 PM
I think Reinsdorf has done many good things as owner, and you can't take those 6 NBA championships away from him no matter who drafted Michael Jordan. You can even say he is one of the best Chicago sports owners. But then compare that to the Wirtz family who chased Bobby Hull out of town, and helped destroy the NHL, the Wrigleys who turned the Cubs into a laughing stock, the Tribune Company who scalps their own tickets, the Halas Family who has run the Bears into the ground, Bill Veeck, good intentions but no money and questionable judgement, and the Allyns who knew nothing about marketing and less about baseball. Then again it took the Bulls seven years to return to the playoffs, and the Sox are still looking for their first World Series since 1959. Additionally, the team's fan base has eroded. Everything is relative.

gosox41
05-03-2005, 04:53 PM
BUZZZZZ, wrong. Payrol went up THIS YEAR, after staying static for several years prior. I guess JR had to sock away some money to pay for 2005's exorbitant payroll increase.


BUZZZZZ. Wrong. Look at the 2003 payroll at the end of the season. Then look at 2004.


Bob

mweflen
05-03-2005, 05:13 PM
BUZZZZZ. Wrong. Look at the 2003 payroll at the end of the season. Then look at 2004.


Bob

Do you have a link to the numbers? I will bet a dollar that the increase for 2005 is much larger than any increases for the period 2001-2004.

mweflen
05-03-2005, 05:24 PM
Here's the link:http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/teamresults.aspx?team=4

The Sox payroll declined every year 2001 through 2003, and the largest increases were in 2004 and 2005. It's only in 2005 that we finally have a respectable payroll, and our median salary is mugch higher, as well. Thank goodness - no more two superstars and a bunch of scrubs.

What happened to prices in 2001-2003? Up each year.

Major Payroll Decreases: 1998, 1999, 2002.

Major Price reductions: zilch.

'Nuff said.

LVSoxFan
05-03-2005, 05:28 PM
Look I think the Angels' guy is the blueprint for a modern baseball owner.

What do you know? If you make it affordable, more people come. And when more people come, they spend more money! More money on high-profit merchandise/food/drink! Somebody shoot me, I'm Einstein!

Anyway, I think some of the pricing at the Cell is absurd, especially for the UD. I also think it's absurd that if you try and use the Pepsi night (UD only) or Fight Club (1/2 price Mondays) discount via TM, by the time they get done with the service fees you're almost spending the same.

But Jerry--and here's the key point--has never been a "fan" owner, he's a bottom line guy. And having said that, if the Sox were to do it this year, lord knows what this man would raise prices to next year.

It's sort of lose/lose.

TaylorStSox
05-03-2005, 05:35 PM
A) The assumption that the Bulls would have won any more championships is farfetched. Everyone that left that team went on to do very little. Their time had ended.

B) Lip acts like JR stole his lunch money everyday for a few years. Is there really more to story that we don't know?

PaleHoseGeorge
05-03-2005, 05:45 PM
A) The assumption that the Bulls would have won any more championships is farfetched.

Yes! Yes! Yes! The Spurs and Knicks were DYNASTIES in the making! Jordan's Bulls never pounded those guys like a bongo drum!

Oh, wait...

:roflmao:

mweflen
05-03-2005, 05:46 PM
But Jerry--and here's the key point--has never been a "fan" owner, he's a bottom line guy. And having said that, if the Sox were to do it this year, lord knows what this man would raise prices to next year.

:KW
"Look, Boss, we won the World Series. Isn't that great?"

:reinsy
"Sure is. Been my dream for as long as I can remember. Gosh, I get misty just thinking about it. Say, who won it last year?"

:KW
"Why, it was the Red Sox, I believe."

:reinsy
"This is outrageous! We are only charging 68% (http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm?page=fci_mlb2005.cfm) what they are, yet we're delivering 100% of the result! We need to make our average ticket $44 immediately! I won't have people stealing quality baseball from my pockets! Get me the Mayor of Las Vegas on the phone!"

White Sox Josh
05-03-2005, 11:43 PM
:reinsy
Take that Moronotti

crector
05-04-2005, 09:13 AM
Look I think the Angels' guy is the blueprint for a modern baseball owner.

What do you know? If you make it affordable, more people come. And when more people come, they spend more money! More money on high-profit merchandise/food/drink! Somebody shoot me, I'm Einstein!

Anyway, I think some of the pricing at the Cell is absurd, especially for the UD. I also think it's absurd that if you try and use the Pepsi night (UD only) or Fight Club (1/2 price Mondays) discount via TM, by the time they get done with the service fees you're almost spending the same.

But Jerry--and here's the key point--has never been a "fan" owner, he's a bottom line guy. And having said that, if the Sox were to do it this year, lord knows what this man would raise prices to next year.

It's sort of lose/lose.

Interesting. First, you yell and scream because the Sox don't spend enough money to suit you, then you yell and scream because they raise the prices so they can spend the kind of money that you demand that they spend.

mweflen
05-04-2005, 12:33 PM
more JR lovin'

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-reins04.html

funny how one paper will follow another paper the next day with similar articles...