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View Full Version : Crazy idea: Trade for Todd Helton


mdep524
04-30-2005, 03:27 PM
OK, this is not some knee-jerk reaction to Paulie's recent slump. It's just a topic of conversion for us baseball junkies. Todd Helton, one of the game's elite hitters, may want out of Colorado. Under what situations should/would the Sox pursue him?

As has been pointed out in other threads, Paulie is a one-dimensional player. When he is slumping, which happens frequently and for long periods of time, he cannot help the team in ANY way. Is it wise to make him the highest paid position player on a team built around speed and defense?

There have been rumblings that Helton is sick of losing in Colorado, and would welcome a trade elsewhere. His large contract has become an albatross for the stuck-in-neutral Rockies. From the immortal Steve Phillips' plan to turn around the Rockies in this week's ESPN The Magazine:

1. Trade Todd Helton for whatever you can get.
Gaining financial flexibility is more important than even getting good prospects in return. The Rockies still owe Helton $100M over the next six years. If they were willing to eat $6M a year, someone would take on the rest. At $36M, that's a good deal for Colorado. Cut your losses and move on.
Yes, we all know Phillips is an idiot. But suppose the Rockies are thinking this way. Getting Helton for 6 years at $64M is not that bad- certainly comparable to what we would be paying Konerko for lesser production over the same time period.

Just for the sake of discussion. Any thoughts?

SomebodyToldMe
04-30-2005, 03:42 PM
Helton is actually my favorite player that's in the NL. He hit everything, not just in Coors. Him on the Sox would make me drool soooo much.

gf2020
04-30-2005, 03:46 PM
:cough: What's the score? :cough:

TheOldRoman
04-30-2005, 03:51 PM
The same exact thing popped into my head last night. I love Paulie, but he is the streakiest hitter on the team other than Uribe. Helton would be welcome on any team.

TheOldRoman
04-30-2005, 03:55 PM
Also, as you posted, obviously the salary is a huge deal. However, think of it this way...
If we trade Konerko plus a good prospect or two to Colorado for Helton, they would be able to trade Paulie to another contender for even more prospects. KW could certainly make it happen. However, I still think it never will happen, no matter how much we could use gold glove defense and a left handed power stick who puts up a monster average at 1B. Oh well.

Paulie needs to get his head out of his arse so we stop bitching about him. Obviously he is trying, but right now he isnt doing good.

gf2020
04-30-2005, 04:05 PM
:cough: What's the score? :cough:

There we go...

Anyway, I think this is an awful idea. Take Helton out of Colorado and he will immediately struggle.

Again, it's the first month of the season. Paulie will snap out of it.

TheOldRoman
04-30-2005, 04:06 PM
Helton is actually my favorite player that's in the NL. He hit everything, not just in Coors. Him on the Sox would make me drool soooo much.

Umm, he doesnt hit AS GOOD on the road, but he still hits great. His career average is .376 at Coors Field, and .299 on the road. His overall career average is .337. This, and his gold glove defense would be a huge upgrade over Konerko and his .239 average on the road last year.

TheOldRoman
04-30-2005, 04:13 PM
There we go...

Anyway, I think this is an awful idea. Take Helton out of Colorado and he will immediately struggle.

Again, it's the first month of the season. Paulie will snap out of it.

Helton's career road average (.299) is higher than Konerko's career home average (.293). There wouldnt be much of a drop off coming from Coors to the Cell, but the road numbers would only go up due to the transition from the NL to AL.

mdep524
04-30-2005, 05:28 PM
There we go...

Anyway, I think this is an awful idea. Take Helton out of Colorado and he will immediately struggle.

Again, it's the first month of the season. Paulie will snap out of it. What a horribly uninformed statement. Helton is an excellent hitter, even on the road. Last year he hit .326 on the road, they year before he hit .324. Plus, he is a very patient hitter willing to take a walk.

Just because a good hitter *happens* to play in Coors does not mean he will automatically struggle in a different park. Would you say Frank Thomas would immediately struggle if you took him out of the Cell?

SABRSox
04-30-2005, 10:07 PM
This will never happen.

SoxxoS
04-30-2005, 10:22 PM
Id like to strangle him for what he is doing to my fantasy team right now, though.:angry:

Banix12
04-30-2005, 10:34 PM
I love Todd Helton, he's a magnificent player. However there is only one, maybe two guys in our system who the Rockies would want. Brandon McCarthy and probably Brian Anderson. If Kenny can get him for a Paul Konerko (since he wouldn't have a spot anymore on the sox and his salary would be off the Rockies books after the season, cost cutting being what they want), Joe Borchard and a couple other minor leaguers then sure, but the Rockies of the Luxury or time here and a lot of teams are likely gonna be after Helton this season. I don't see the sox being willing to shell out the players for him.

Konerko is already a fine player, and can likely be signed for less than Helton's yearly salary after this season.

If Jermaine Dye and/or Aaron Rowand continue to struggle this season, that is what you trade for at the deadline, some extra outfield help but I don't think they are gonna be that bad for too much longer

gf2020
04-30-2005, 10:44 PM
What a horribly uninformed statement. Helton is an excellent hitter, even on the road. Last year he hit .326 on the road, they year before he hit .324. Plus, he is a very patient hitter willing to take a walk.

Just because a good hitter *happens* to play in Coors does not mean he will automatically struggle in a different park. Would you say Frank Thomas would immediately struggle if you took him out of the Cell?

If only there were a recent point of comparison where an offensive stud got traded from Colorado to a contender mid-season...

Oh yeah...

Larry Walker

38 games with Colorado .324 Batting Average/ .464 On-Base Percentage

44 games with St. Louis .280 Batting Average/ .393 On-Base Percentage

If you're wondering, I consider a 44 point drop in batting average and a 71 point drop in OBP as struggling.

You may disagree with me, but characterizing my opinion as horribly uninformed is unnecessary hyperbole.

mdep524
04-30-2005, 10:57 PM
If only there were a recent point of comparison where an offensive stud got traded from Colorado to a contender mid-season...

Oh yeah...

Larry Walker

38 games with Colorado .324 Batting Average/ .464 On-Base Percentage

44 games with St. Louis .280 Batting Average/ .393 On-Base Percentage

If you're wondering, I consider a 44 point drop in batting average and a 71 point drop in OBP as struggling.

You may disagree with me, but characterizing my opinion as horribly uninformed is unnecessary hyperbole. So just because one player struggled another entirely different player will necessarily struggle as well? :rolleyes:

TheOldRoman
04-30-2005, 10:58 PM
If only there were a recent point of comparison where an offensive stud got traded from Colorado to a contender mid-season...

Oh yeah...

Larry Walker

38 games with Colorado .324 Batting Average/ .464 On-Base Percentage

44 games with St. Louis .280 Batting Average/ .393 On-Base Percentage

If you're wondering, I consider a 44 point drop in batting average and a 71 point drop in OBP as struggling.

You may disagree with me, but characterizing my opinion as horribly uninformed is unnecessary hyperbole.

Walker is not Todd Helton. Look at the road numbers. Helton's road numbers are great, while his home numbers are unbelievable. in USCF, his home numbers would remain roughly the same. His road numbers, however, would rise, if anything, with going from the NL to the AL. Walker's road numbers were not nearly as good as Helton's. Before you made your earlier statement, you didnt look at Helton's splits. I think you are just trying to defend your previous post, because you cant argue with a .299 career road average in the National League.

Lip Man 1
04-30-2005, 11:46 PM
This deal will never happen simply because Helton DOES NOT want out of Colorado and because of his salary.

Only if Helton asks for a deal will the Rockies try to trade him. Try being the operative word..he's making $12.6 million this season and AVERAGES 17 million from 2006 through 2011. Good luck trying to deal that to anyone other then the Yankees.

Plus (I'm not exactly sure about this) but I think his agent is Scott Boras.

Lip

mdep524
04-30-2005, 11:52 PM
This deal will never happen simply because Helton DOES NOT want out of Colorado and because of his salary.

Only if Helton asks for a deal will the Rockies try to trade him. Try being the operative word..he's making $12.6 million this season and AVERAGES 17 million from 2006 through 2011. Good luck trying to deal that to anyone other then the Yankees.

Plus (I'm not exactly sure about this) but I think his agent is Scott Boras.

Lip Helton does not "want" out of Colorado the same way ARod did not "want" out of Texas. Besides, Helton demanding a trade is not the only way he would be dealt. For their part the Rockies may like the idea of trading him to redistribute salary (worked well for Texas).

Banix12
05-01-2005, 12:18 AM
If only there were a recent point of comparison where an offensive stud got traded from Colorado to a contender mid-season...

Oh yeah...

Larry Walker

38 games with Colorado .324 Batting Average/ .464 On-Base Percentage

44 games with St. Louis .280 Batting Average/ .393 On-Base Percentage

If you're wondering, I consider a 44 point drop in batting average and a 71 point drop in OBP as struggling.

You may disagree with me, but characterizing my opinion as horribly uninformed is unnecessary hyperbole.


There is also the matter that Larry Walker is at the end of his career while Helton is in his prime, which might factor into things as well. Walker was a great hitter before he went into Colorado. Certainly there will be some drop but I don't think it would be enough to turn him into a bad major leaguer. He'd just drop from looking Godlike as a hitter down to being a great player.

MisterB
05-01-2005, 01:23 AM
Walker is not Todd Helton. Look at the road numbers. Helton's road numbers are great, while his home numbers are unbelievable. in USCF, his home numbers would remain roughly the same. His road numbers, however, would rise, if anything, with going from the NL to the AL. Walker's road numbers were not nearly as good as Helton's. Before you made your earlier statement, you didnt look at Helton's splits. I think you are just trying to defend your previous post, because you cant argue with a .299 career road average in the National League.

As much as was made of the Cell's HR friendliness last year, it is NOT the same as Coors Field. Coors not only boosts HR numbers (by a greater degree than the Cell), but adds, on average, about 25-30 points to your batting average (over the last 3 years Helton hit 60 points higher at Coors). How do you arrive at the conclusion his road numbers would get better in the AL?

Plus - Helton's 3 year road splits cut down to a full 162 game season:
.310/.422/.517, 44 doubles, 22 homers, 84 rbi.

His power numbers may be a little higher due to the Cell, but Colorado would have to pay a lot of that $17M/year for the next 6 years to make it worth my while.

SoxBoy14
05-01-2005, 12:16 PM
Many years ago, the deal Ron Schueler almost pulled off was Frank Thomas for Todd Helton and Darryl Kile [RIP]. At the time it sounded like lunacy.

Lip Man 1
05-01-2005, 01:53 PM
MDEP:

Sure....and the Sox are going to 'take on' that seventeen million dollar salary as well.

Not as long as Uncle Jerry owns the team that's for sure.

Lip

TheOldRoman
05-01-2005, 02:01 PM
As much as was made of the Cell's HR friendliness last year, it is NOT the same as Coors Field. Coors not only boosts HR numbers (by a greater degree than the Cell), but adds, on average, about 25-30 points to your batting average (over the last 3 years Helton hit 60 points higher at Coors). How do you arrive at the conclusion his road numbers would get better in the AL?

Plus - Helton's 3 year road splits cut down to a full 162 game season:
.310/.422/.517, 44 doubles, 22 homers, 84 rbi.

His power numbers may be a little higher due to the Cell, but Colorado would have to pay a lot of that $17M/year for the next 6 years to make it worth my while.
Well, I believe his road average would go up because there is a generally a jump in average (or ERA) for a player going from the NL to AL. This is because of the DH and a smaller strike zone.

I agree with you on Coors field boosting more than HR numbers. Because of the balls flying out, the fences were set back very far when the park was originally built. If Im not mistaken, Coors has the biggest outfield in the majors. More ground to cover = more hits.

As for having a hitter with ONLY a .310 average on the road, I woudlnt mind that at all. His homers and RBIs are down, but compare that to what Paulie gave us on the road last year.
Konerko's 3 year road splits cut down to a 162 game season:
.263/.323/.440 with 24 doubles, 24 homers, and 88 RBI
and most of those numbers came before last year when he hit .239 with 12 homers on the road.

TheOldRoman
05-01-2005, 02:04 PM
MDEP:

Sure....and the Sox are going to 'take on' that seventeen million dollar salary as well.

Not as long as Uncle Jerry owns the team that's for sure.

Lip

If the Rockies want to trade Helton, they know they have to pick up a large portion of his salary. If KW tried, he would be able to get Colorado to pick up maybe $5-6 mil a year. That would involve throwing in Konerko, who the Rockies would deal to a contender, and some good prospects. If $5 mil a year is taken off his salary, the Sox would be paying him roughly want Konerko will make this offseson. It COULD happen, it just isnt likely.

mdep524
05-01-2005, 02:08 PM
If the Rockies want to trade Helton, they know they have to pick up a large portion of his salary. If KW tried, he would be able to get Colorado to pick up maybe $5-6 mil a year. That would involve throwing in Konerko, who the Rockies would deal to a contender, and some good prospects. If $5 mil a year is taken off his salary, the Sox would be paying him roughly want Konerko will make this offseson. It COULD happen, it just isnt likely. Exactly right. And Lip knows this too, he just wanted the opportunity to take a shot at Sox' ownership. :redneck

SOXSINCE'70
05-01-2005, 02:09 PM
If there were a way,i'd trade for Alex Cintron of the
D-Backs.With the injuries to Uribe and Ozuna,we could use
him in the lineup.But being in the thick of the NL
Waste(I mean West) race,my fear is Joe Gargiola jr
would ask for Brandon Mccarthy. :(:

balke
05-01-2005, 02:10 PM
I have a feeling we won't need any trades by the All-Star Break this year, and we'll all be content.

TheOldRoman
05-01-2005, 02:57 PM
I have a feeling we won't need any trades by the All-Star Break this year, and we'll all be content.
EVERY team could better itself with trades. KW will pull the trigger on at least one trade this July. KW may not be the perfect GM, but THANK GOD we have him instead of Schueler. Ron Schueler just didn't try. Who did he pick up at the break when we were in contention in 93? 2000? 97.. oops! He would sit on his hands as other teams got better. KW may not be the best GM, he may not be the most wily or the most competant, but he works day and night to make this team better. That is not something you can say about Schueler.
As for what positions KW will address in July, that will likely make itself pretty obvious over the next few months. Either way, he likely wouldn't deal Konerko. Even if the Sox traded Paulie for Helton, the Chicago scum media would STILL act like the Sox dumped payroll.

Tribune Headline:
FIRST PLACE SOX GIVE UP ON SEASON, DUMP KONERKO
White Sox trade Konerko because they wouldn't sign him in the offseason.
WHITE SOX - STILL CHEAP, STILL STUPID p.98
SOX PICK UP HELTON, NOT LIKELY TO HELP p.97

Well, it would be a dual headline...

CUBS TRADE FOR GREG NORTON,WORLD SERIES INEVITABLE!
Cubs punch their ticket to the fall classic by picking up potential gold glover.
DUSTY: "NORTON'S WHITE, BUT HE'S ALRIGHT" p.92
KILEY: CUBS NOW MOST COMPLETE TEAM IN BASEBALL p.94

And who could forget the loveable windsock?
:moron
"In my article, I discuss how cheap Reinsdorf is. The Sox refused to pay market value for their all-star 1B Konerko. They knew he was going to sign elsewhere for a team that has a chance of contending, so they traded him for nothing. When will Reinsdorf ever learn? He should have resigned Konerko, cut Frank Thomas, and blew up the Ballmall."

Lip Man 1
05-01-2005, 11:55 PM
Roman:

Helton's deal is for the next six years after this season through 2011. Even if somehow the Sox could get the Rockies to eat 5-6 million every season over the course of the deal (as you said something not likely to happen...) the Sox would never take on a deal that long.

Right or wrong that's not how they operate.

Lip

santo=dorf
05-02-2005, 12:09 AM
While we're asking "What's the Score," can someone (Lip?) confirm for me that there was talks back in 97 or so of the Sox trading Thomas for Helton? :?:

Lip Man 1
05-02-2005, 01:03 PM
Dorf:

Honestly I never heard of that one before. Sorry.

Lip

mdep524
05-02-2005, 03:15 PM
Dorf:

Honestly I never heard of that one before. Sorry.

Lip I definitely remember hearing about it at the time, though I can't produce any hard evidence. Thomas for Helton, those were the main guys involved, around the time in the late '90s when Frank began to slip in this town. It was talked about but I don't know how close to a deal Schu ever came. Probably not very close.