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DickAllen72
04-30-2005, 12:11 AM
Hitting no problem, but rates pain while running a '10'

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050429&content_id=1032618&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

On Thursday afternoon, under the watchful eye of Dr. Lowell Scott Weil, Thomas underwent shockwave therapy on the problematic area.

The treatment used a much smaller machine than what was employed on Magglio Ordonez's knee in Austria during an experimental procedure this past offseason. Thomas described the accredited medical work as the use of a gun-like device right on the sore spot, sending intense shock waves to stimulate the area and temporarily knock out the pain.

balke
04-30-2005, 12:24 AM
Shoot, now frank has a hernia?

The Racehorse
04-30-2005, 12:27 AM
Hitting no problem, but rates pain while running a '10'


On Thursday afternoon, under the watchful eye of Dr. Lowell Scott Weil, Thomas underwent shockwave therapy on the problematic area.

The treatment used a much smaller machine than what was employed on Magglio Ordonez's knee in Austria during an experimental procedure this past offseason. Thomas described the accredited medical work as the use of a gun-like device right on the sore spot, sending intense shock waves to stimulate the area and temporarily knock out the pain.


A similar treatment that Maggs used in Austria? Does this mean Frank will come down with a hernia after he comes off the DL? :(:

DickAllen72
04-30-2005, 12:28 AM
Here's more:

The shockwave treatment isn't supposed to be used more than once every 10 days, but Thomas said Friday that they were working on a plan to use it on him every five days or once per week. Even with this latest venture, Thomas still refuses to set a timetable for his return.

He knows that it's impossible to pinpoint a return until he can run, and the constant pain already has pushed Thomas back one month longer than he initially thought would be needed. There doesn't seem to be a worry on Thomas' part that this pain could keep him on the sideline through the All-Star break or possibly even longer, even though it's a contract year of sorts for the prolific slugger, with the White Sox holding a $3.5 million buyout after the 2005 season.

Knockoutinthepar
04-30-2005, 12:28 AM
What exactly is this shockwave stuff.

SOX ADDICT '73
04-30-2005, 12:31 AM
I really hope this doesn't turn into a Magglio-esque "Diagnosis du Jour." Remember when Frank thought he'd be ready for Opening Day?

I'm just crabby because one of those "450-foot drives" would have helped quite a bit tonight. After one of those, he can crawl around the bases on his hands and knees if he wants.

Hell, even a sac fly in the ninth...he could have just stood there and high-fived Ozuna as he crossed the plate. Get well soon, Big Frank.

kevingrt
04-30-2005, 10:53 AM
This is a very interesting situation for Frank. I mean we all know he is dying to get back on the field. But when your foot is killing you how do you get back on to the field? And the scary part of this is that it doesn't seem to get better from day to day. I did read they were doing some therapy for it, but if this therapy doesn't work then what's next? Do we just hope Frank hits HR's all the time. I think this is a very scary situation, but I am hoping for the best and praying he can be with us for the second half of the season at somewhere around 90%.

harwar
04-30-2005, 11:19 AM
What exactly is this shockwave stuff.

I don't know about the theapy side,but the vortex ring gun is a shockwave weapon that can generate a high powered shockwave that propagates at supersonic speeds.They can carry a payload of kinetic or chemical agents over a distance of 20 meters.
Lets hope the Big Hurt is getting something a little more benign ;)

Mickster
04-30-2005, 11:23 AM
I don't know about the theapy side,but the vortex ring gun is a shockwave weapon that can generate a high powered shockwave that propagates at supersonic speeds.They can carry a payload of kinetic or chemical agents over a distance of 20 meters.
Lets hope the Big Hurt is getting something a little more benign ;)

Wow!

http://www.discoverengineering.org/cool_things/cd/images/Geek.gif

RKMeibalane
04-30-2005, 11:28 AM
This is a very interesting situation for Frank. I mean we all know he is dying to get back on the field. But when your foot is killing you how do you get back on to the field? And the scary part of this is that it doesn't seem to get better from day to day. I did read they were doing some therapy for it, but if this therapy doesn't work then what's next? Do we just hope Frank hits HR's all the time. I think this is a very scary situation, but I am hoping for the best and praying he can be with us for the second half of the season at somewhere around 90%.

If Frank were playing right now, he would basically be hitting home runs and singles, nothing else. That's the main reason why he's not with the club. It doesn't do Frank or the Sox any good for him to be out there until the pain subsides. I don't think the Sox medical staff should wait around until he's completely free of pain, because I don't think that's going to happen this season. It will probably take Frank a long time to regain full strength in the ankle.

I'm not a doctor (yet :cool:), but it's been my experience that ankle and foot injuries can take several months, perhaps even more than a year to fully heal. A friend of mine fractured his ankle and tore ligaments in the joint playing soccer, and he had to deal with pain and swelling for almost ten months after the injury occurred. Frank had surgery to repair the stress fracture last October. It may take that long, or longer, for him to be completely healthy again. The fact that he weighs 260-270 pounds doesn't help matters.

I'll wait for Beckett to shoot down my argument, but I can't help getting the feeling that Frank may just have to "grin and bear it" as far as the pain is concerned. The nice about him being a DH is that he doesn't have to move as much as most players, which should spare him some of the pain once he's playing again.

RKMeibalane
04-30-2005, 11:31 AM
I really hope this doesn't turn into a Magglio-esque "Diagnosis du Jour." Remember when Frank thought he'd be ready for Opening Day?

I'm just crabby because one of those "450-foot drives" would have helped quite a bit tonight. After one of those, he can crawl around the bases on his hands and knees if he wants.

Hell, even a sac fly in the ninth...he could have just stood there and high-fived Ozuna as he crossed the plate. Get well soon, Big Frank.

I don't think this is going to be like the Maggs disaster. I think the Sox know what the problem is with Frank. It's just a matter of getting him ready to play again. Right now, he can't run at full speed because of the ankle tendonitis. As I said in my previous post, I don't know if he can realistically expect the ankle to be completely free of pain this season. The Sox medical staff may have to compromise, allowing Frank to play even if he's not 100%.

I doubt that Guillen or Williams will be happy about that, but even at 50%, Frank would do wonders to help the Sox offense. Right now, the guys look dead out there.

Get well soon, Big Frank!

balke
04-30-2005, 11:35 AM
If Frank were playing right now, he would basically be hitting home runs and singles, nothing else.

Any homerun, or clutch single would be winning games for us right now :(:.


I would love to see Konerko bumped back to #5 where he belongs. I guess we can't do it very often, but when Frank comes back, we should probably stick Everett in the field.

Pods
Iguchi
Everett
Frank
Konerko
A-row
AJ
Crede
Uribe/Harris/Ozuna


That would be perfect. The true end to our worries comes when A-Row Dye and Paulie wake the FREAK up! I feel dirty for being such a Rowand supporter last season. I think I used the All-Star term.... ick. Where did he go in the offseason?

RKMeibalane
04-30-2005, 11:38 AM
Any homerun, or clutch single would be winning games for us right now :(:.


I would love to see Konerko bumped back to #5 where he belongs. I guess we can't do it very often, but when Frank comes back, we should probably stick Everett in the field.

Pods
Iguchi
Everett
Frank
Konerko
A-row
AJ
Crede
Uribe/Harris/Ozuna


That would be perfect. The true end to our worries comes when A-Row Dye and Paulie wake the FREAK up! I feel dirty for being such a Rowand supporter last season. I think I used the All-Star term.... ick. Where did he go in the offseason?

I'd rather have Frank in the three-slot because he can get on base ahead of Everett. Dye has been a total disaster thus far. I'm hoping he can get on one of his hot streaks the A's fans have talked about, but until then, this looks like the Sox team we're going to see.

PAPChiSox729
04-30-2005, 12:38 PM
That would be perfect. The true end to our worries comes when A-Row Dye and Paulie wake the FREAK up! I feel dirty for being such a Rowand supporter last season. I think I used the All-Star term.... ick. Where did he go in the offseason?

Aaron will be back to his All-Star form soon enough. I'm not worried. They just need to get healthy!

GregoryEtc
04-30-2005, 02:55 PM
What exactly is this shockwave stuff.

Apparently Frank Thomas' doctors are Decepticons...
http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/transformersg1v1n1sw.jpghttp://www.kevinfreitas.net/img/20000502-01.gif

whitesoxwilkes
04-30-2005, 03:04 PM
What exactly is this shockwave stuff.+

I've had a fairly similar procedure done to break up scar tissue in my heel from years of running. The doc just uses a wand-like (or in Frank's case gun-like) device hooked up to a special ultrasound machine, which emits super high-frequency waves from it. Completely painless and tends to work really well.

beckett21
04-30-2005, 04:03 PM
+

I've had a fairly similar procedure done to break up scar tissue in my heel from years of running. The doc just uses a wand-like (or in Frank's case gun-like) device hooked up to a special ultrasound machine, which emits super high-frequency waves from it. Completely painless and tends to work really well.

It's a little different than that Wilkes, if you had what I think you had. However, shockwave therapy can be used for plantar fasciitis, so it is possible that is what you had.

What you seem to describe is a therapeutic ultrasound, which is very common in podiatry practice and used often in physical therapy. This type of treatment is usually done two to three times weekly for a period of 4 to 6 weeks for maximum effect. No anesthetic is needed, since the treatment is completely painless. A small unit is used and a massage wand is passed over the treatment area, which sounds exactly like what you describe. We do have a small unit in our office.

ESWT, or Extracorporeal Shockwave Therapy, is a bit different. This is approximately a 20 minute procedure which is performed under a local anesthetic. The shockwave therapy is based on the same technology used to break up kidney stones (lithotripsy). The shockwaves help to break up scar tissue and enhance blood flow to the area which is treated. This type of treatment is painful, which is why an anesthetic is used.

Personally I perform ESWT on people with chronic plantar fasciitis. My results have been excellent, probably 75-80% success. However, the healing time varies from patient to patient. What the shockwaves do is actually stimulate the body's own healing mechanisms, so it is not an instant cure. They basically help to break up scar tissue, which is avascular, and create a *new* fresh injury, which stimulates the body to increase blood flow to the area to enhance healing. Full healing time varies anywhere from 1 month to 6 months for complete resolution of symptoms. Again, it varies from patient to patient. Some cases are tougher than others.

Lowell Scott Weil, Sr. is currently at the forefront of research regarding ESWT and its various uses. From the description, it sounds like Frank was treated with the Ossatron, which to my understanding takes sometimes up to 7-8 treatments. I use a different machine (Dornier Epos), which is usually only one treatment. I have no personal hands on experience with the Ossatron, only anecdotal evidence. Both machines overall have similar efficacy as I understand it. Feel free to do a Google search on ESWT, Ossatron, etc. for more info--I'm sure there is plenty out there.

The area which is being treated for Frank would be the Posterior Tibial tendon I assume. It is the tendon which helps to support the arch and inserts into the navicular bone, which is where Frank had his stress fracture repaired. I can't really predict how well this is going to work because currently this procedure is not FDA approved for use in that area, to my knowledge. Before people start freaking out about this, understand that it is still in the investigational stages here in the US, and it is commonly done abroad (i.e. Europe). The reason it is not mainstream in the US yet is because long-term studies regarding its efficacy are not complete; it is NOT a safety issue. However, if administered improperly, shockwave therapy can have a negative effect. I have strictly used it in treatment of plantar fasciitis, though my associates have also used it for Achilles Tendonitis with positive results.

As I mentioned, Weil is pretty much the go-to guy for this stuff. He is leading the research in this area, and is working on long-term studies on it. If anyone is qualified to perform this procedure, it is him.

As far as RKM's comments, I pretty much agree. I would expect this to nag Frank all season, to some degree. Foot and ankle injuries do take quite awhile to heal. However, there is a limit to how much pain is acceptable. Hopefully the shockwave treatment is going to help accelerate the healing process a bit.

Still too early to panic, folks. This is not unusual by any means. All that we can do is wait and see what happens. The body needs time to heal itself.

The Racehorse
04-30-2005, 04:15 PM
beckett21, thanks for the break down. :cool:
*sigh* My guts are telling me to be pessimistic. :(:

beckett21
04-30-2005, 04:30 PM
Points of clarification:

I just re-read the article and thought I should probably add a couple things:

(I probably should have read it more carefully before responding, I just got a little excited. :redface:)

1) Sounds like the tendon itself was not treated, just scar tissue surrounding the tendon/bone. Going from the article.

2) I am not familiar with a so-called *gun-like* unit; the machines I am familiar with are pretty cumbersome. However, if it is truly *shockwave* therapy, it should work in the same fashion. I do know that Weil has done/is doing research involving the Ossatron units, but I don't know if they have a newer or small unit available. There are also a couple other machines which I am not familiar with, so it could be one of those.

3) *shockwave* therapy is different from *ultrasound* therapy. I will offer this disclaimer just in case the wrong terminology is being used. But since they said it can only be done every 10 days, this leads me to believe it is indeed shockwave therapy.

One thing that has always irked me about this whole situation is that they always refer to the *ankle* when the navicular is techically part of the *foot*. IT IS HIS FOOT MEDIA PEOPLE!! (pet peeve, sorry.) Hence my *media terminology disclaimer*. :redneck

So, as always, take my posts with an appropriate grain of salt. I am not involved with his treatment, so I can only go by what the media feeds us. Unless I am actually in the room, I cannot tell you with 100% certainty what exactly they did. I assume no responsibility for inaccuracies. Just doing my best with what I have to work with. :redneck

All that said, I am familiar with shockwave therapy as I have described it. Totally safe procedure, and it can give immediate relief--however this immediate relief is usually transient (temporary). The shockwave treatment itself causes an anesthetic/analgesic effect which usually lasts for 24-48 hours on average, and the pain usually returns to its previous level once this effect wears off. Totally normal response to the treatment. It does sound to me like this is exactly what he had.

Hopefully they can decrease his pain level from 10/10 to somewhere around 4/10 or 5/10. This would be reasonable, and while not ideal it would be more acceptable for him to play with IMO.

beckett21
04-30-2005, 04:32 PM
beckett21, thanks for the break down. :cool:
*sigh* My guts are telling me to be pessimistic. :(:

Nah, don't be pessimistic.

Just be realistic. I still expect him back at some point, though I could be wrong. Just don't expect him to be 100%, and don't expect him back before June.

Like I said, all we can do is wait and see.

Lip Man 1
04-30-2005, 10:22 PM
Well whatever they did seems to be working. Story on the Tribune web site tonight quoting Thomas that he ran the bases hard and felt much better. Is going to try to run hard again Sunday. If he can do it, real progress has been made.

Thomas improving

After testing his mending left ankle by running bases, Frank Thomas said, "that's more progress than I've had in a couple weeks. I really felt I was getting on it. I was getting to the bases pretty quickly.

"If I run like that with no pain, I'll be fine, I can play now. But I don't think I can sustain that over a period of time. I'm concerned about that right now."

Thomas' big problem is that the ankle stiffens up on him quickly.

"My job is just to go at it," he said. "I'm going to figure out if it's going to get better or not. I'll see if I can do it again [Sunday]. That's what we're trying to work on, back-to-back days instead of every other day or a few days later.

"If I can get somewhere by the end of this month or the middle of this month, I'll be happy."

Lip

beckett21
04-30-2005, 10:30 PM
Well whatever they did seems to be working. Story on the Tribune web site tonight quoting Thomas that he ran the bases hard and felt much better. Is going to try to run hard again Sunday. If he can do it, real progress has been made.

Thomas improving

After testing his mending left ankle by running bases, Frank Thomas said, "that's more progress than I've had in a couple weeks. I really felt I was getting on it. I was getting to the bases pretty quickly.

"If I run like that with no pain, I'll be fine, I can play now. But I don't think I can sustain that over a period of time. I'm concerned about that right now."

Thomas' big problem is that the ankle stiffens up on him quickly.

"My job is just to go at it," he said. "I'm going to figure out if it's going to get better or not. I'll see if I can do it again [Sunday]. That's what we're trying to work on, back-to-back days instead of every other day or a few days later.

"If I can get somewhere by the end of this month or the middle of this month, I'll be happy."

Lip

Great to see.

The nice thing about shockwave therapy is the recovery time. There is essentially no down time. While it is usually recommended that patients take it easy for awhile right after the procedure, they are generally able to resume activities as tolerated almost immediately.

Just keep your fingers and toes crossed. :smile:

whitesoxwilkes
04-30-2005, 10:33 PM
It was ultrasound that I had.

I stand corrected.

:bandance:

beckett21
04-30-2005, 10:53 PM
It was ultrasound that I had.

I stand corrected.

:bandance:

I wasn't trying to be a wise guy. :redneck

MRKARNO
04-30-2005, 11:10 PM
Wow it sounds like this could be the turning point :D:

Let's hope he goes out there tomorrow and feels good again. If so, then he might have just made a season-affecting turnaround that could have him back much sooner than the all-star break as one Chicago newspaper reported (you can guess which).

Again, beckett, thanks for your medical insight. It's always well-appreciated!

Fake Chet Lemon
04-30-2005, 11:20 PM
I'd still like to know how Frank came to the decision to delay his surgery last year. He could have had it a month or two earlier and he didn't. He'd probably be playing right now. I'm not Monday morning QB'ing, I had the same thought when it all went down. Now that he is in a potential walk year, he has to be careful for his own sake.

kevingrt
04-30-2005, 11:30 PM
Very promising article just posted on WhiteSox.com about Frank and his running:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050430&content_id=1034036&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

RKMeibalane
05-01-2005, 07:06 AM
I'd still like to know how Frank came to the decision to delay his surgery last year. He could have had it a month or two earlier and he didn't. He'd probably be playing right now. I'm not Monday morning QB'ing, I had the same thought when it all went down. Now that he is in a potential walk year, he has to be careful for his own sake.

The Sox medical staff decided to wait. It is standard procedure to allow an injury like the one that Frank had to heal on its own over time. The surgery was performed because the fracture wasn't healing fast enough. And, just for clarification, Frank did talk to other physicians, and was told the same thing.

voodoochile
05-01-2005, 10:03 AM
One thing that has always irked me about this whole situation is that they always refer to the *ankle* when the navicular is techically part of the *foot*. IT IS HIS FOOT MEDIA PEOPLE!! (pet peeve, sorry.) Hence my *media terminology disclaimer*. :redneck

Wouldn't that tend to tie in with everything else in the story?

He says the pain in his foot is a "10". As someone who has had occasional problems with something similar to plantar fasciitis, I can testify that it hurts something horrible. You don't even want to stand up when you get a flareup. It feels like someone is driving a knife into the fleshy part of your heel.

You say this treatment is more used for that kind of injury and not the ankle.

Hope the big man feels better soon. We really need his bat.

Ol' No. 2
05-01-2005, 10:04 AM
Points of clarification:

I just re-read the article and thought I should probably add a couple things:

(I probably should have read it more carefully before responding, I just got a little excited. :redface:)

1) Sounds like the tendon itself was not treated, just scar tissue surrounding the tendon/bone. Going from the article.

2) I am not familiar with a so-called *gun-like* unit; the machines I am familiar with are pretty cumbersome. However, if it is truly *shockwave* therapy, it should work in the same fashion. I do know that Weil has done/is doing research involving the Ossatron units, but I don't know if they have a newer or small unit available. There are also a couple other machines which I am not familiar with, so it could be one of those.

3) *shockwave* therapy is different from *ultrasound* therapy. I will offer this disclaimer just in case the wrong terminology is being used. But since they said it can only be done every 10 days, this leads me to believe it is indeed shockwave therapy.

One thing that has always irked me about this whole situation is that they always refer to the *ankle* when the navicular is techically part of the *foot*. IT IS HIS FOOT MEDIA PEOPLE!! (pet peeve, sorry.) Hence my *media terminology disclaimer*. :redneck

So, as always, take my posts with an appropriate grain of salt. I am not involved with his treatment, so I can only go by what the media feeds us. Unless I am actually in the room, I cannot tell you with 100% certainty what exactly they did. I assume no responsibility for inaccuracies. Just doing my best with what I have to work with. :redneck

All that said, I am familiar with shockwave therapy as I have described it. Totally safe procedure, and it can give immediate relief--however this immediate relief is usually transient (temporary). The shockwave treatment itself causes an anesthetic/analgesic effect which usually lasts for 24-48 hours on average, and the pain usually returns to its previous level once this effect wears off. Totally normal response to the treatment. It does sound to me like this is exactly what he had.

Hopefully they can decrease his pain level from 10/10 to somewhere around 4/10 or 5/10. This would be reasonable, and while not ideal it would be more acceptable for him to play with IMO.Is this the same treatment Ordonez had to go to Vienna to get on his knee? If so, why Vienna?

Mickster
05-01-2005, 11:46 AM
Is this the same treatment Ordonez had to go to Vienna to get on his knee? If so, why Vienna?

If this is the case, my guess it that Maggs went to Vienna because all published reports in the states at the time had Maggs suffering from a miniscus tear. Having procedures like this for such a "simple" injury and surgery would have raised eyebrows.

Lip Man 1
05-01-2005, 12:32 PM
There was another story on this in the Sunday Southtown, the writer, Nathanial Wilson (?) wrote something which did cause me to do a double take. The story said Thomas is now looking at a late JULY return.

I guess it goes to show that nobody can pin down a date for Frank's return.

Lip

balke
05-01-2005, 12:45 PM
That would pretty much be post all-star break, which is what we should all be prepared for. HOpefully we can just keep winning without him. Heck, he can sit out til October if we can stay up on the Twinks all season. Let this team learn how to hit without him, like they did much of the second half last season.

beckett21
05-01-2005, 02:13 PM
Wouldn't that tend to tie in with everything else in the story?

He says the pain in his foot is a "10". As someone who has had occasional problems with something similar to plantar fasciitis, I can testify that it hurts something horrible. You don't even want to stand up when you get a flareup. It feels like someone is driving a knife into the fleshy part of your heel.

You say this treatment is more used for that kind of injury and not the ankle.

Hope the big man feels better soon. We really need his bat.

The navicular is in the rearfoot, or hindfoot--it is close to the ankle, but technically part of the foot. There are 26 bones in the human foot, the navicular being one of them. A matter of semantics I guess, something that would probably only bother someone like me. :redneck

The reason it bothers me is that Frank previously had surgery on his ankle several years ago to have bone spurs removed, and people may think this is the same injury. It is not.

Tendonitis can start in the foot and radiate up the ankle, since the primary tendons in the foot originate from the muscles above the ankle and insert into the foot. It just sounds to me that the problem is surrounding the surgical site, which would be the foot technically. The pain in that area is capable of radiating to the ankle if it follows the course of the tendon. But the scar tissue would be in the foot since that is where the surgery was performed.

Make sense, or am I babbling? :?:

Sounds like they are treating *scar tissue* and not the tendon specifically. Again, I'm not there so I can't say exactly what they are doing. It would not surprise me if he was suffering tendonitis of the posterior tibial tendon, which attaches to the navicular, but they are hesitating to call it tendonitis and calling it scar tissue so I would go by what they are saying at this point. I don't want to be propogating misinformation--this is purely my interpretation of the little information available.

To answer ON2's comments, Magglio had treatment performed on the bone, whereas Frank is having treatment performed on the soft tissues. Apparently there is a doctor in Vienna who specializes in ESWT treatment on the type of bone injury Magglio suffered, and has extensive experience with that particular treatment. It has been done abroad since the late 1990's, whereas it is not a treatment which has gained acceptance yet here stateside for bone injuries. Soft tissue treatment with ESWT is common in the US, and like I said before Lowell Weil Sr. is at the forefront of research in this area in regards to foot pathology.

Hope some of that made some sense.....:smile:

Ol' No. 2
05-01-2005, 09:50 PM
The navicular is in the rearfoot, or hindfoot--it is close to the ankle, but technically part of the foot. There are 26 bones in the human foot, the navicular being one of them. A matter of semantics I guess, something that would probably only bother someone like me. :redneck

The reason it bothers me is that Frank previously had surgery on his ankle several years ago to have bone spurs removed, and people may think this is the same injury. It is not.

Tendonitis can start in the foot and radiate up the ankle, since the primary tendons in the foot originate from the muscles above the ankle and insert into the foot. It just sounds to me that the problem is surrounding the surgical site, which would be the foot technically. The pain in that area is capable of radiating to the ankle if it follows the course of the tendon. But the scar tissue would be in the foot since that is where the surgery was performed.

Make sense, or am I babbling? :?:

Sounds like they are treating *scar tissue* and not the tendon specifically. Again, I'm not there so I can't say exactly what they are doing. It would not surprise me if he was suffering tendonitis of the posterior tibial tendon, which attaches to the navicular, but they are hesitating to call it tendonitis and calling it scar tissue so I would go by what they are saying at this point. I don't want to be propogating misinformation--this is purely my interpretation of the little information available.

To answer ON2's comments, Magglio had treatment performed on the bone, whereas Frank is having treatment performed on the soft tissues. Apparently there is a doctor in Vienna who specializes in ESWT treatment on the type of bone injury Magglio suffered, and has extensive experience with that particular treatment. It has been done abroad since the late 1990's, whereas it is not a treatment which has gained acceptance yet here stateside for bone injuries. Soft tissue treatment with ESWT is common in the US, and like I said before Lowell Weil Sr. is at the forefront of research in this area in regards to foot pathology.

Hope some of that made some sense.....:smile:Thanks Beckett. You're the tops.:smile:

voodoochile
05-01-2005, 10:30 PM
The navicular is in the rearfoot, or hindfoot--it is close to the ankle, but technically part of the foot. There are 26 bones in the human foot, the navicular being one of them. A matter of semantics I guess, something that would probably only bother someone like me. :redneck

The reason it bothers me is that Frank previously had surgery on his ankle several years ago to have bone spurs removed, and people may think this is the same injury. It is not.

Tendonitis can start in the foot and radiate up the ankle, since the primary tendons in the foot originate from the muscles above the ankle and insert into the foot. It just sounds to me that the problem is surrounding the surgical site, which would be the foot technically. The pain in that area is capable of radiating to the ankle if it follows the course of the tendon. But the scar tissue would be in the foot since that is where the surgery was performed.

Make sense, or am I babbling? :?:

Sounds like they are treating *scar tissue* and not the tendon specifically. Again, I'm not there so I can't say exactly what they are doing. It would not surprise me if he was suffering tendonitis of the posterior tibial tendon, which attaches to the navicular, but they are hesitating to call it tendonitis and calling it scar tissue so I would go by what they are saying at this point. I don't want to be propogating misinformation--this is purely my interpretation of the little information available.

To answer ON2's comments, Magglio had treatment performed on the bone, whereas Frank is having treatment performed on the soft tissues. Apparently there is a doctor in Vienna who specializes in ESWT treatment on the type of bone injury Magglio suffered, and has extensive experience with that particular treatment. It has been done abroad since the late 1990's, whereas it is not a treatment which has gained acceptance yet here stateside for bone injuries. Soft tissue treatment with ESWT is common in the US, and like I said before Lowell Weil Sr. is at the forefront of research in this area in regards to foot pathology.

Hope some of that made some sense.....:smile:

Yes, actually, it did.

I have a follow up question. Would preforming this type of treatment on a bone be reason to suspect that Magglio does indeed have a much more severe injury than he is letting on? I believe the term that was used to describe what was happening to his knee included a Latin term meaning the bone is dying - similar what happened to Bo Jackson's hip, IIRC.

Would there be another reason to "create a new injury that hopefully will heal" (to paraphrase your description of what this treatment does) be considered a pretty extreme thing to do to a leg bone (or any bone)? Or am I simply judging this through layman's eyes that insist bones aren't like tendons and muscles?

I understand what you are talking about in terms of what the treatment does to Frank's foot. Anyone who has ever had a decent sized cut and been forced to remove the scab several times to eventually heal the wound can identify with the process at least superficially - heal, injure, heal, injure, heal.

Do bones really work that same way or is this some desperate last gasp attempt to save an otherwise dying knee? If so, what are the odds it actually worked?

Lip Man 1
05-02-2005, 11:42 AM
Just in case you missed this. Monday's Chicago Tribune. Thomas ran again Sunday. It's looking good gang!

Thomas optimistic

Frank Thomas ran lightly for the second straight day and said he "felt more encouraged than ever" that his left ankle may allow him to go out on rehab assignment soon. "I had really pounded it [Saturday] and I expected it to really be sore, but it wasn't," Thomas said.

Lip

voodoochile
05-02-2005, 11:44 AM
Just in case you missed this. Monday's Chicago Tribune. Thomas ran again Sunday. It's looking good gang!

Thomas optimistic

Frank Thomas ran lightly for the second straight day and said he "felt more encouraged than ever" that his left ankle may allow him to go out on rehab assignment soon. "I had really pounded it [Saturday] and I expected it to really be sore, but it wasn't," Thomas said.

Lip

AWESOME FREAKING NEWS, LIP! WOOHOO!

That might mean early June he could be playing for the team, or even earlier if his bat comes around sooner.

ND_Sox_Fan
05-02-2005, 11:50 AM
AWESOME FREAKING NEWS, LIP! WOOHOO!

That might mean early June he could be playing for the team, or even earlier if his bat comes around sooner.

This is teriffic!!! I tend to think that if we can take the comments about his BP as the truth - his bat isn't going to take too long to come around. He could step in and hit .250 and lead this team in BA. (That should only be half teal).

whitesoxwilkes
05-02-2005, 01:45 PM
AWESOME FREAKING NEWS, LIP! WOOHOO!

That might mean early June he could be playing for the team, or even earlier if his bat comes around sooner.

"Lip" and "Awesome News" in the same sentence.

I think a pig just flew past my window!

:bandance:

daveeym
05-02-2005, 02:30 PM
I'll keep my fingers crossed on Frank and Hope all the latest good news keeps on coming but I'm sorry, the "I want Frank out there even at 50%" crew is f'n nuts.

RKMeibalane
05-02-2005, 02:55 PM
I'll keep my fingers crossed on Frank and Hope all the latest good news keeps on coming but I'm sorry, the "I want Frank out there even at 50%" crew is f'n nuts.

Normally, I would agree with you, but I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get Jermine Dye out of the lineup. Even healthy, he's been bad.

MRKARNO
05-02-2005, 03:10 PM
AWESOME FREAKING NEWS, LIP! WOOHOO!

That might mean early June he could be playing for the team, or even earlier if his bat comes around sooner.

This sounds really encouraging, but personally I'm going to stop guestimating about when he's going to return because everytime I do, it seems like they change the date of return. He said he might make it for opening day and then the next day KW and Herm were vehemently refuting that, stating he might be out until mid-June. Then, just as it sounds like he's getting ready for a June return, they state that he's out until the All Star break. Now it sounds like he's going to be back in early to mid June. I guess the one constant has been early to mid June, so one would hope that the this date represents the truth, but it's really hard to pin down with all of these predicted return dates.

But if Frank is back by mid-June and he's posting a .400+ OBP and hitting a homer every week or so and two doubles, then I can say with confidence that the White Sox are likely the best team in baseball for the long term :D:

1951Campbell
05-02-2005, 03:13 PM
+

I've had a fairly similar procedure done to break up scar tissue in my heel from years of running. The doc just uses a wand-like (or in Frank's case gun-like) device hooked up to a special ultrasound machine, which emits super high-frequency waves from it. Completely painless and tends to work really well.

So, basically it's, um, a vibrator? :?:

RKMeibalane
05-02-2005, 03:16 PM
But if Frank is back by mid-June and he's posting a .400+ OBP and hitting a homer every week or so and two doubles, then I can say with confidence that the White Sox are likely the best team in baseball for the long term :D:

A lot will depend on how much time Frank spends in Charlotte. It looks like he'll be there for about two weeks once he is activated. A June 13 return to the Sox seems like a good target date, as the Sox will be starting a ten-game homestand that evening. I agree, however, that we should wait and see what happens here. Frank may be back much sooner than everyone expects, or he may be out much longer than everyone expects. I just want to see this team continue to play well so that when he does return, he won't have to carry the team.

hawkjt
05-02-2005, 04:56 PM
Bruce Levine said on MJH today that he talked to Frank on Friday and he said it could be late july. Then I read the positive note on frank in the trib today and I have to wonder who to believe. Maybe Levine did not get down to talk to frank yesterday. Who knows. I am taking the positive vein and taking Franks word over Levine.

RKMeibalane
05-02-2005, 05:05 PM
Bruce Levine said on MJH today that he talked to Frank on Friday and he said it could be late july. Then I read the positive note on frank in the trib today and I have to wonder who to believe. Maybe Levine did not get down to talk to frank yesterday. Who knows. I am taking the positive vein and taking Franks word over Levine.

There was a brief period in which Frank was concerned that he may be out for longer than expected, but that was at the end of last week. That's probably what LeVineline was referring to.

MRKARNO
05-02-2005, 05:07 PM
Bruce Levine said on MJH today that he talked to Frank on Friday and he said it could be late july. Then I read the positive note on frank in the trib today and I have to wonder who to believe. Maybe Levine did not get down to talk to frank yesterday. Who knows. I am taking the positive vein and taking Franks word over Levine.

A lot's changed since Friday, so Levine's info is probably out of date.

RKMeibalane
05-02-2005, 05:11 PM
A lot's changed since Friday, so Levine's info is probably out of date.

The Chicago media out of date. Who'd a thunk it?

beckett21
05-02-2005, 08:51 PM
Yes, actually, it did.

I have a follow up question. Would preforming this type of treatment on a bone be reason to suspect that Magglio does indeed have a much more severe injury than he is letting on? I believe the term that was used to describe what was happening to his knee included a Latin term meaning the bone is dying - similar what happened to Bo Jackson's hip, IIRC.

Would there be another reason to "create a new injury that hopefully will heal" (to paraphrase your description of what this treatment does) be considered a pretty extreme thing to do to a leg bone (or any bone)? Or am I simply judging this through layman's eyes that insist bones aren't like tendons and muscles?

Do bones really work that same way or is this some desperate last gasp attempt to save an otherwise dying knee? If so, what are the odds it actually worked?

The main reason he had it done in Vienna in the first place is that I don't know if anyone has a clear answer to your question.

The difference between Magglio's injury and Bo's is that Magglio is dealing with a focal area of degeneration/osteonecrosis, whereas Bo suffered Avascular necrosis of the head of the femur--in essence, the entire head of the femur (ball portion of hip joint) lost its blood supply and *died,* for lack of a better term. When he broke the hip, the blood supply to the head of the femur was disrupted. Nothing could be done to save it, so the entire portion of the bone nourished by that blood supply was lost.

As far as Magglio goes, his injury sets him up for osteoarthritis of the knee joint. Still very painful of course, but much different than what Bo had. Maggs is only dealing with a focal area, not the whole bone. Not to say that ultimately he may not end up needing a total knee replacement, but not anytime soon. But degenerative arthritis (DJD/osteoarthritis) is progressive--it's the wear and tear type of arthritis.

The idea in the shockwave treatment in Maggs case, I presume, is that it would preclude/prevent the need to drill holes in Maggs' bone to stimulate the healing process; shockwave is totally noninvasive in that sense. Traditional treatments would have been much more invasive, have a much longer recovery period, and still provide no guarantees.

Whether or not ESWT actually improves blood flow to bone in the same way it does to soft tissues, I honestly have no idea. Whether or not it would work for Magglio, again I have no idea. I don't really see any down side to it though. Apparently they have been doing it in Europe for at least 5-6 years as I understand it, possibly longer. They are still collecting data I presume.

Rest assured that if it does indeed prove to work, we will see it being done here in the US as well. But for now the jury is out.

voodoochile
05-02-2005, 08:58 PM
The main reason he had it done in Vienna in the first place is that I don't know if anyone has a clear answer to your question.

The difference between Magglio's injury and Bo's is that Magglio is dealing with a focal area of degeneration/osteonecrosis, whereas Bo suffered Avascular necrosis of the head of the femur--in essence, the entire head of the femur (ball portion of hip joint) lost its blood supply and *died,* for lack of a better term. When he broke the hip, the blood supply to the head of the femur was disrupted. Nothing could be done to save it, so the entire portion of the bone nourished by that blood supply was lost.

As far as Magglio goes, his injury sets him up for osteoarthritis of the knee joint. Still very painful of course, but much different than what Bo had. Maggs is only dealing with a focal area, not the whole bone. Not to say that ultimately he may not end up needing a total knee replacement, but not anytime soon. But degenerative arthritis (DJD/osteoarthritis) is progressive--it's the wear and tear type of arthritis.

The idea in the shockwave treatment in Maggs case, I presume, is that it would preclude/prevent the need to drill holes in Maggs' bone to stimulate the healing process; shockwave is totally noninvasive in that sense. Traditional treatments would have been much more invasive, have a much longer recovery period, and still provide no guarantees.

Whether or not ESWT actually improves blood flow to bone in the same way it does to soft tissues, I honestly have no idea. Whether or not it would work for Magglio, again I have no idea. I don't really see any down side to it though. Apparently they have been doing it in Europe for at least 5-6 years as I understand it, possibly longer. They are still collecting data I presume.

Rest assured that if it does indeed prove to work, we will see it being done here in the US as well. But for now the jury is out.

Thanks Doc... Once again a great answer.

beckett21
05-02-2005, 09:01 PM
Thanks Doc... Once again a great answer.

As you can tell, I enjoy responding. A little too much, I think. :D:

voodoochile
05-02-2005, 09:03 PM
As you can tell, I enjoy responding. A little too much, I think. :D:

Hey, it's people like you who make WSI such an informative site. We appreciate it you wordy bastard... keep it up...:D:

beckett21
05-02-2005, 09:07 PM
Hey, it's people like you who make WSI such an informative site. We appreciate it you wordy bastard... keep it up...:D:

:redneck

SOX ADDICT '73
05-02-2005, 10:00 PM
The main reason he had it done in Vienna in the first place is that I don't know if anyone has a clear answer to your question.

The difference between Magglio's injury and Bo's is that Magglio is dealing with a focal area of degeneration/osteonecrosis, whereas Bo suffered Avascular necrosis of the head of the femur--in essence, the entire head of the femur (ball portion of hip joint) lost its blood supply and *died,* for lack of a better term. When he broke the hip, the blood supply to the head of the femur was disrupted. Nothing could be done to save it, so the entire portion of the bone nourished by that blood supply was lost.

As far as Magglio goes, his injury sets him up for osteoarthritis of the knee joint. Still very painful of course, but much different than what Bo had. Maggs is only dealing with a focal area, not the whole bone. Not to say that ultimately he may not end up needing a total knee replacement, but not anytime soon. But degenerative arthritis (DJD/osteoarthritis) is progressive--it's the wear and tear type of arthritis.

The idea in the shockwave treatment in Maggs case, I presume, is that it would preclude/prevent the need to drill holes in Maggs' bone to stimulate the healing process; shockwave is totally noninvasive in that sense. Traditional treatments would have been much more invasive, have a much longer recovery period, and still provide no guarantees.

Whether or not ESWT actually improves blood flow to bone in the same way it does to soft tissues, I honestly have no idea. Whether or not it would work for Magglio, again I have no idea. I don't really see any down side to it though. Apparently they have been doing it in Europe for at least 5-6 years as I understand it, possibly longer. They are still collecting data I presume.

Rest assured that if it does indeed prove to work, we will see it being done here in the US as well. But for now the jury is out.
There cannot be another sports message board like this one. ANYWHERE.

MRKARNO
05-02-2005, 10:04 PM
As you can tell, I enjoy responding. A little too much, I think. :D:

We enjoy reading the responses! Keep it up!:D::D::D: