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downstairs
04-28-2005, 11:47 AM
Come on. Enough about the umps, people.

Winning teams don't complain about ump conspiricies. Teams who feel they're "not supposed to be there" do.

We had two three run leads which we lost in one game. The other, we carried a flacid 1-1 tie into the 9th. You're going to lose a lot of those games.

Do umps blow calls? Yes. Are umps 100% consistent? No. Had the umps not been an issue this week, what would the Sox record be? 16-6.

VivaOzzie
04-28-2005, 11:51 AM
Come on. Enough about the umps, people.

Winning teams don't complain about ump conspiricies. Teams who feel they're "not supposed to be there" do.

We had two three run leads which we lost in one game. The other, we carried a flacid 1-1 tie into the 9th. You're going to lose a lot of those games.

Do umps blow calls? Yes. Are umps 100% consistent? No. Had the umps not been an issue this week, what would the Sox record be? 16-6.

This may be true. However, had the umps not been an issue, the games wouldve been a hell of a lot more enjoyable to watch.

Thats my problem.

OEO Magglio
04-28-2005, 11:54 AM
. Had the umps not been an issue this week, what would the Sox record be? 16-6.
Probably 17 and 5.

batmanZoSo
04-28-2005, 11:56 AM
Enough about "enough about the umps." They screwed us, period. We're not out of line if we point that out. And we're not players, either. It doesn't matter if we dwell on it for a day or two, as long as they don't.

SSN721
04-28-2005, 11:58 AM
Enough about "enough about the umps." They screwed us, period. We're not out of line if we point that out. And we're not players, either. It doesn't matter if we dwell on it for a day or two, as long as they don't.

agreed.

munchman33
04-28-2005, 12:00 PM
Do umps blow calls? Yes. Are umps 100% consistent? No. Had the umps not been an issue this week, what would the Sox record be? 16-6.

It'd be a lot harder to convince people we'd be 16-6 with cleanly umped games rather than 18-4.

Did you even watch the games?

LVSoxFan
04-28-2005, 12:07 PM
I'm on the fence here. The umps sucked, no doubt, and they cost us at least the 2nd Oakland game.

However, I'm loathe to start supporting the idea of blaming losses on the umps' bad calls.

Like they say in fighting: if you leave it to the judges, you put the outcome in somebody else's hands. Going into the 9th tied 1-to-1 ain't exactly dominating.

And while we kept climbing into the lead on Tuesday, we sure gift wrapped that win for Oakland, umps or not.

I'd prefer we forget about umps in 2005. Kind of Cub-like behavior to me. Not that the umps don't suck, but it's part of the game. If they're that bad Ozzie and KW can always take it up with the league.

SOXSINCE'70
04-28-2005, 12:08 PM
I pin 60 % of the blame for this loss on the anemic Sox offense.
The other 40% goes to those "drillrods" (actually i'd like to
use stronger language,but I can't on this board) Froemming
and Wendelstadt.I'd hate to think the 2005 season should
be subtitled,to borrow from Beckett 21,"The Umpires Strike Back".:angry:

misty60481
04-28-2005, 12:08 PM
We are starting to sounds like last years Cubs--quit already

downstairs
04-28-2005, 12:15 PM
Its analagous to the NBA. Everyone seems to love to blame the refs when a final-second call turns things the other way. But you're not going to be in that final-second situation if you hit just a few more shots, played a little bit better defense. People seem to forget there are 47 other minutes!

Same with these games- especially the 2nd game.

If one call *can possibly* turn the game, then you put yourself in that situation.

Scoring only one run over nine innings puts you in a situation where special circumstances- which ALWAYS happen, against and for ANY team- change the course of the entire game.

Next time, knock some more runners in... make it 4-1... and then it doesn't matter.

LVSoxFan
04-28-2005, 12:17 PM
Its analagous to the NBA. Everyone seems to love to blame the refs when a final-second call turns things the other way. But you're not going to be in that final-second situation if you hit just a few more shots, played a little bit better defense. People seem to forget there are 47 other minutes!

Same with these games- especially the 2nd game.

If one call *can possibly* turn the game, then you put yourself in that situation.

Scoring only one run over nine innings puts you in a situation where special circumstances- which ALWAYS happen, against and for ANY team- change the course of the entire game.

Next time, knock some more runners in... make it 4-1... and then it doesn't matter.

And there you have it!

:gulp:

OEO Magglio
04-28-2005, 12:31 PM
Its analagous to the NBA. Everyone seems to love to blame the refs when a final-second call turns things the other way. But you're not going to be in that final-second situation if you hit just a few more shots, played a little bit better defense. People seem to forget there are 47 other minutes!

Same with these games- especially the 2nd game.

If one call *can possibly* turn the game, then you put yourself in that situation.

Scoring only one run over nine innings puts you in a situation where special circumstances- which ALWAYS happen, against and for ANY team- change the course of the entire game.

Next time, knock some more runners in... make it 4-1... and then it doesn't matter.
You know what you're exactly right, this team CAN NOT win 1 run games, I mean we've stunk at doing so all year, instead we just have to blow every team out to make sure the umps don't have to do their job correctly.

gosox41
04-28-2005, 12:32 PM
Enough about "enough about the umps." They screwed us, period. We're not out of line if we point that out. And we're not players, either. It doesn't matter if we dwell on it for a day or two, as long as they don't.

You may be right, but it does make Sox fans seem whiny. Reminds me of Cub fans. How would that world have been different if Bartman caught that ball? Their still talking about it and we as Sox fans rightfully make fun of them and their lame attempts at excuse making.

The umpiring crew was lousy, but it goes both ways and will work out to our advantage at some point. Until then maybe some better defense (Dye), better hitting (Dye, and everyone else) and we wouldn't have to waste our time discussing the umps.


Bob

SOX ADDICT '73
04-28-2005, 12:45 PM
Granted, neither team played well enough to deserve a win on Wednesday (though the umps saw fit to award it to Oakland anyway), but we should have won on Tuesday, if not for two bad calls. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. IMO, the final score of that game was: Sox offense 6 runs, Oakland defense 1 (total of 7) - Oakland offense 4, Sox defense 2, UMPS 3 (total of 9). All things being equal, the Sox should have won 6-4, or even given the miscues, 7-6.

When blown calls cost you a game, you can chalk it up to human error...but something still must be done.

When it's the personal vendetta of an umpire that costs you a game, that is inexcusable...and something REALLY must be done.

Isn't there some governing entity whose job it is to hold these guys accountable?

Having said all that, it would be nice if we could get past this. Obviously I'm not saying that complaining about the umps is irrational, I'm just saying it's pointless. If we complain loud enough, is MLB going to review these games and award the Sox an additional win or two? Of course not. Are they even going to look for umpiring inconsistency and issue a reprimand to Wendelstedt and/or Froemming? Doubtful. Will this prevent these two clowns from ever officiating at another Sox game? Don't kid yourself.

jdm2662
04-28-2005, 12:56 PM
As much as we got bad calls, we need to forget about it and move on. The White Sox hit into how many DPs yesterday? How many errors did they make on Tuesday? How many runners did they leave on base? We don't want to be turned into whinning and excuse making Cub fans. Both games they could've won easily despite the bad calls, and they didn't. Good teams recover from this mess and start a new streak. Let's do just that.
________
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Brian26
04-28-2005, 01:13 PM
Had the umps not been an issue this week, what would the Sox record be? 16-6.

Actually, we'd be 18-4.

Brian26
04-28-2005, 01:14 PM
Enough about "enough about the umps." They screwed us, period. We're not out of line if we point that out. And we're not players, either. It doesn't matter if we dwell on it for a day or two, as long as they don't.

I've never paid attention to who the umpires were...but you can bet we should all be watching now.

Uncle_Patrick
04-28-2005, 01:21 PM
We are starting to sounds like last years Cubs--quit already

This is the fear that I have. Yes, the umps did suck. They probably cost us the April 26 game. The Sox blew a number of chances yesterday, the umps just made it harder to swallow. But I remember how the Cubs got sidetracked with a number of petty arguments with officials and broadcasters last year. I hope the Sox move on from this issue quickly. I'd prefer they use this incident to say to themselves "No one is going to keep us down" and play great baseball as opposed to moaning about every questionable call the umps make. I don't want the White Sox to be seen as crybabies the way people saw the 2004 Cubs.

Iwritecode
04-28-2005, 01:33 PM
Next time, knock some more runners in... make it 4-1... and then it doesn't matter.

They were handcuffed from the begining of the series. They didn't have much of a chance to make it 4-1 when every single close play is called against them.

A team should not be required to play perfect baseball because they know they aren't going to get any close calls.

Even Hawk mentioned before the series started that this was not a good umpiring crew for the Sox to have...

Foulke29
04-28-2005, 01:59 PM
We are starting to sounds like last years Cubs--quit already

A ridiculous statement - last year's cub fans complained about balls and strikes - walks vs. strikeouts.

It's a lot different when a ball that is thrown at a player and hits him is not called a HBP. If Crede makes it to first base, that loads them up and forces the manager into a tough decision on whether he should go to the bullpen - not to mention the pitcher has to make his pitches closer to the plate...

The call was ridiculous and cost them an opportunity!

Further, Phantom Balks makes a real difference.

Rocklive99
04-28-2005, 01:59 PM
To me, it has nothing to do with wins and losses, I hate how umps get off the hook because "good teams can overcome umpires", it's an excuse for the umpire. Just as Dye will hear it for sucking it up, the umpire should hear it for sucking at his job. We're talking about 6 of our players hit, us getting calls before the game warning us and Ozzie, blown call at home with the umpire out of position, questionable balk, Pods being called out when he was safe on a DP, the whole HBP debacle, and Crede being thrown out for a usual thrown bat in frustation. I'm young, but easily the worst crew I've ever seen.

Foulke29
04-28-2005, 02:01 PM
I hope the Sox move on from this issue quickly.

I hope that Ozzie decides to plunk a few Oakland batters next time we see them - after all - 7 HBP against us in 3 games is nothing short of intentional...

We need to protect our batters.

Uncle_Patrick
04-28-2005, 02:04 PM
I hope that Ozzie decides to plunk a few Oakland batters next time we see them - after all - 7 HBP against us in 3 games is nothing short of intentional...

We need to protect our batters.

Hey, I'm all for that, too. I have no problem responding when a team hits one of our players.

downstairs
04-28-2005, 02:09 PM
I hope that Ozzie decides to plunk a few Oakland batters next time we see them - after all - 7 HBP against us in 3 games is nothing short of intentional...

We need to protect our batters.


Personally, I hope we retaliate by scoring more runs than them.

But to each their own, Mr. Zambrano...

batmanZoSo
04-28-2005, 02:14 PM
You may be right, but it does make Sox fans seem whiny. Reminds me of Cub fans. How would that world have been different if Bartman caught that ball? Their still talking about it and we as Sox fans rightfully make fun of them and their lame attempts at excuse making.

The umpiring crew was lousy, but it goes both ways and will work out to our advantage at some point. Until then maybe some better defense (Dye), better hitting (Dye, and everyone else) and we wouldn't have to waste our time discussing the umps.


Bob

Don't go there. Bartman was an accident, the guy was a die hard cub fan. We're talking about professionals who go through rigorous training to get where they are (or in Hunter Palazzo's case, good genes). You and others will obviously never get the point. It doesn't matter how we played, we were wronged.

Spare me the cliche of everything evening out. This debacle will never even out, nor should it. I wouldn't wish this upon any team.

NonetheLoaiza
04-28-2005, 02:16 PM
I don't care that we lost because of the umps per se, but what I have a problem with is that that whole crew seems to have a vendetta against Ozzie and the White Sox. There are going to be games where umpires DO affect the outcome of the game, and yes it sucks. But it is the unprofessionalism of Hunter Wendelstedt and Bruce Froemming that I take issue with above all else.

BarbG
04-28-2005, 02:32 PM
How many of us can make 5-10 mistakes (minimum) at our jobs every day and never be disciplined or admonished in any way - but have all kinds of excuses made for our poor performance?

Why shouldn't umpires be held to the very minimum of standards that the rest of us are?

BarbG
04-28-2005, 02:34 PM
I'm young, but easily the worst crew I've ever seen.

I'm old(er), but easily - hands down, no question - the worst crew I've ever seen.

Epark84
04-28-2005, 02:39 PM
Come on. Enough about the umps, people.

Winning teams don't complain about ump conspiricies. Teams who feel they're "not supposed to be there" do.

We had two three run leads which we lost in one game. The other, we carried a flacid 1-1 tie into the 9th. You're going to lose a lot of those games.

Do umps blow calls? Yes. Are umps 100% consistent? No. Had the umps not been an issue this week, what would the Sox record be? 16-6.

agree 100%. The umps were not the sole reason the sox didnt sweep or take 2/3. No they didnt help, but whining about umping is cub-like. Sox played like **** tuesday and blew countless opportunities wednesday.

fquaye149
04-28-2005, 02:55 PM
agree 100%. The umps were not the sole reason the sox didnt sweep or take 2/3. No they didnt help, but whining about umping is cub-like. Sox played like **** tuesday and blew countless opportunities wednesday.

Oh, blow it out.

Do we win if we score more runs, despite the umps? Yes.

Do umps occasionally make bad calls? Yes.

But the fact is: while we did not play well enough to overcome the umps, we played well enough to have won if the umps didn't blow 8 or 9 calls.

We're not talking about balls and strikes here, we're talking about arguable calls. The balk, the warning issue, the HBP, the ejections. They were bull ****, horse ****, and every other sort of ****. Period.

Yes, the Sox should be saying to THEMSELVES we could have still won if we played better, but the fact is, as fans WE shouldn't have to take it. We pay the same amount of money to watch as the Oakland fans if we go to a game. We matter as much as they do. Therefore, even though an ump doesn't bear the ultimate responsibility for losing the two games, It is complete and utter crap to say that we should be playing with a handicap.

And pulling out the cubs trump card? POOR. Put a little thought into your posts instead of just making illogical a->c assumptions.

Cubs fans complain about everything
Sox fans are complaining about this game
THEREFORE
Sox fans are acting like cub fans.

I'll give you one:

Cubs fans make trollish posts when they come on the board and say the White Sox deserve to lose.
EPark84 says we deserved to have lost this game.
THEREFORE
EPark84 is a Cub fan

Yeah, I guess stupid logic can work both ways.

MUScholar21
04-28-2005, 03:04 PM
I think this whole thing needs to be put on hold, at least until the next Hunter & Co. show up. The game is over, and right now all we are doing is spinning our wheels. All of us need to be concerned about our banged-up infield, or bragging about our rotation, or doing something other than this. Besides, all this ump discussion is just getting me p***ed off again. And I still have 3 more hours of work to try to get through, without wanting to punch someone.

downstairs
04-28-2005, 04:27 PM
And pulling out the cubs trump card? POOR. Put a little thought into your posts instead of just making illogical a->c assumptions.

Cubs fans complain about everything
Sox fans are complaining about this game
THEREFORE
Sox fans are acting like cub fans.


In all honesty, while there is plenty of bad logic used in sports arguments, I think you're off. The logic is solid:

Cubs fans complain about umps when they lose
Sox fans are complaining about umps when they lost
THEREFORE
Sox fans are acting like cub fans.

BarbG
04-28-2005, 04:39 PM
There were two blown calls in the 4/18 game against the Twins.
We won anyway.
I complained about the poor umpiring - when we won.

Sorry, you're paid to do a job, you should DO THAT JOB to the best of your ability. I just thought I was old-fashioned in some regards.

I didn't know for 35+ years I've actually been a Cubs fan.

As if Sox fans get any respect anyway.

Umpires, players, you and me - should do our jobs and do them the best that we can.

VivaOzzie
04-28-2005, 05:23 PM
There were two blown calls in the 4/18 game against the Twins.
We won anyway.
I complained about the poor umpiring - when we won.

Sorry, you're paid to do a job, you should DO THAT JOB to the best of your ability. I just thought I was old-fashioned in some regards.

I didn't know for 35+ years I've actually been a Cubs fan.

As if Sox fans get any respect anyway.

Umpires, players, you and me - should do our jobs and do them the best that we can.

Amen! :bandance:

fquaye149
04-28-2005, 06:15 PM
In all honesty, while there is plenty of bad logic used in sports arguments, I think you're off. The logic is solid:

Cubs fans complain about umps when they lose
Sox fans are complaining about umps when they lost
THEREFORE
Sox fans are acting like cub fans.


If you're going to ignore the circumstances behind cubs fans whining about umpires and sox fans complaining about umpires, then you're right. the logic stands.

but then again so does my proposition. in case you missed it -

Cubs fans say the sox deserve to lose their games
X poster on WSI says the sox deserved to lose vs. oakland
THEREFORE
X poster is acting like a cub fan