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Knucksie
04-28-2005, 11:33 AM
No, the sky isn't falling, but a couple of thoughts/questions come to mind...

1) The sox defense is really struggling as a whole. Way too many errors. Only a matter of time before this catches up with them.

2) The offense is anemic. Nothing going on in the middle of the line up with the guys that are supposed to be producers. Very disappointing start for Dye (obviously), but I am especially disappointed in Konerko and Rowand. I'm really hoping that this is not a return of the 2003 Konerko.

3) The pitching staff has done more than hold up their end of the deal. They are keeping them "in" this thing. However, I am concerned that the staff may be getting too much pressure put on them by the lack of offense and poor defense od late.

4) Big question in my mind is the attitude. I like the chemistry and all. The guys seem to play hard, etc. BUT I remember back to last year and Hunter's play at the plate. Ozzie has made a big deal about Lee not retaliating with the DP at second. Fast forward... We just came out of a series where our 2nd baseman was taken out (Iguchi) and our hitters were PLUNKED six times, resulting in two ejections (Ozzie and Crede), yet we don't retaliate? Ok, its a 1-1 game and you want to try to salvage a win, but did anyone feel that they were going to win it after the top of the ninth yesterday? With Dye at short, Widger a 3rd and no bench left? Durazo should have been planted on his ass by Marte. Its one of those moves that may have lost them the game but might have inspired a team for the season.

CHISOXFAN13
04-28-2005, 11:36 AM
No, the sky isn't falling, but a couple of thoughts/questions come to mind...

1) The sox defense is really struggling as a whole. Way too many errors. Only a matter of time before this catches up with them.

2) The offense is anemic. Nothing going on in the middle of the line up with the guys that are supposed to be producers. Very disappointing start for Dye (obviously), but I am especially disappointed in Konerko and Rowand. I'm really hoping that this is not a return of the 2003 Konerko.

3) The pitching staff has done more than hold up their end of the deal. They are keeping them "in" this thing. However, I am concerned that the staff may be getting too much pressure put on them by the lack of offense and poor defense od late.

4) Big question in my mind is the attitude. I like the chemistry and all. The guys seem to play hard, etc. BUT I remember back to last year and Hunter's play at the plate. Ozzie has made a big deal about Lee not retaliating with the DP at second. Fast forward... We just came out of a series where our 2nd baseman was taken out (Iguchi) and our hitters were PLUNKED six times, resulting in two ejections (Ozzie and Crede), yet we don't retaliate? Ok, its a 1-1 game and you want to try to salvage a win, but did anyone feel that they were going to win it after the top of the ninth yesterday? With Dye at short, Widger a 3rd and no bench left? Durazo should have been planted on his ass by Marte. Its one of those moves that may have lost them the game but might have inspired a team for the season.

The Sox were warned prior to the start of yesterday's game. Not much you can do.

soxrme
04-28-2005, 12:48 PM
It is Carlos Lee's fault.

infohawk
04-28-2005, 12:51 PM
1) The sox defense is really struggling as a whole. Way too many errors. Only a matter of time before this catches up with them.

2) The offense is anemic. Nothing going on in the middle of the line up with the guys that are supposed to be producers. Very disappointing start for Dye (obviously), but I am especially disappointed in Konerko and Rowand. I'm really hoping that this is not a return of the 2003 Konerko.


Actually, the defense has generally been very good. Baseball Prospectus had the Sox rated number one with respect to defensive efficiency. Dye has made a couple of really bad plays, but I think the defense is vastly improved over last season. Uribe is a vacuum at short, and the team is turning a lot of double plays.

I don't disagree about Dye. He is really looking bad. Hopefully he rebounds. After all, Crede was looking really bad and I think he is now hitting over .300. I have noticed that the batting averages of certain players have been creeping up toward respectability. I think the team's offense is headed in the right direction. I'm not surprised we scuffled yesterday since we didn't have the line-up intact and a few guys were playing out of position. That has to be a distraction to those players because it takes them out of their comfort zone.

LVSoxFan
04-28-2005, 01:11 PM
It's only April, guys. Give 'em another month before you start calling for Dye's head.

voodoochile
04-28-2005, 01:15 PM
The Sox were warned prior to the start of yesterday's game. Not much you can do.

Now this has been bothering me. You cannot only warn one team. It's against the rules of baseball. You have to warn both teams. Yet two Sox batters got hit yesterday (even if the second one was disallowed) and nothing was done.

WhiteSoxFan84
04-28-2005, 01:25 PM
I just want to say my part very quickly;

1) Tuesday night, WE lost that game. No matter how many calls the umps blew. Buehrle was horrible. Dye, who should be stellar on defense to make up for his non-existing offense, made a very rare error. Harris, although out of position, makes a huge error that pretty much put the game away.

2) Wednesday afternoon, yet again, we can point the fingers at the dumb umps and blame them for the loss, but the fact that we only managed 1 run against Kirk fricking Saarloos is a joke. The guy never had a 1-2-3 inning yet all we scored was one run? Amazing outting by Garcia goes to waste. Whether Crede did step into that pitch or not (I don't think he did), we still would've needed the guy after him to get a hit or a walk.

3) This team is beat up folks. Let's admit that. I think seeing Widger at 3B and Crede at SS and then Dye at SS, says A LOT. Everyone now knows what shape the team is in. This off day was much needed. Eight game road trip is over. Now we start a 6 game homestand in which we should be at least 4-2.

4) We're still 16-6. It's amazing how spoiled we've been this month. We experience a 2 game losing streak for the first time this year and a lot of Sox fans are starting to panic. Keep in mind that if the Sox win tomorrow night or Saturday night, they will tie the franchise record for wins in April. If they win both nights, we break the record.

I still think this will be a magical season.

gosox41
04-28-2005, 01:27 PM
I just want to say my part very quickly;

1) Tuesday night, WE lost that game. No matter how many calls the umps blew. Buehrle was horrible. Dye, who should be stellar on defense to make up for his non-existing offense, made a very rare error. Harris, although out of position, makes a huge error that pretty much put the game away.

2) Wednesday afternoon, yet again, we can point the fingers at the dumb umps and blame them for the loss, but the fact that we only managed 1 run against Kirk fricking Saarloos is a joke. The guy never had a 1-2-3 inning yet all we scored was one run? Amazing outting by Garcia goes to waste. Whether Crede did step into that pitch or not (I don't think he did), we still would've needed the guy after him to get a hit or a walk.

.


I agree 100% with your 2 points. Umpires are human and will make mistakes. But this team had 9 innings to put up more then 1 fricking run yesterday and did nothing. The blame lies with them. Without this being an official stat, I bet that a team that scores 1 run in a game will lose about 99% of the time.


Bob

OEO Magglio
04-28-2005, 01:34 PM
Now this has been bothering me. You cannot only warn one team. It's against the rules of baseball. You have to warn both teams. Yet two Sox batters got hit yesterday (even if the second one was disallowed) and nothing was done.
Voodoo, explain to me how this works, the sox got beaned 4 times in the first 2 games, yet they were warned?? That's an absolute joke if you ask me.

WhiteSoxFan84
04-28-2005, 01:43 PM
Voodoo, explain to me how this works, the sox got beaned 4 times in the first 2 games, yet they were warned?? That's an absolute joke if you ask me.

Explain this to me, why the hell did we not throw at their players?

I just saw the Crede HBP for the first time and I must say, Crede leaned into that one. He made no effort whatsoever to get out of the way of that one.

But like I said earlier, it's the teams fault for putting themselves in a must score situation by only scoring 1 run the previous 8 innings.

A sign of a great team is accepting failure and responsibility. I don't want this team turning into the 2004 sCrUBS and fighting with umpires every other game and blaming their losses on umpires. Whether the umpires do cost us games or not, we need to find ways around any obstacle. That's what championship teams do.

JC456
04-28-2005, 01:54 PM
Crede took one for the team. "Take one for the team" This saying has been in baseball forever. The ump making the call was wrong. There are plenty of hit by pitches where the batter doesn't try and get out of the way.

Not that I want to cry about this, but the Sox, since I can remember, almost never get the call. The play at the plate in game 2, ump out of position misses the play. In fact on that play, the throw had the runner beat. Normally, if the throw has the runner beat it's an automatic out. Not for the Sox.

What about all of the home runs called foul in the previous two years? Close plays at first, never go to the Sox on either side of it.

this team continues to have to overcome bad calls, and I would quess it would wear on them.

thepaulbowski
04-28-2005, 01:58 PM
Crede took one for the team. "Take one for the team" This saying has been in baseball forever. The ump making the call was wrong. There are plenty of hit by pitches where the batter doesn't try and get out of the way.

Not that I want to cry about this, but the Sox, since I can remember, almost never get the call. The play at the plate in game 2, ump out of position misses the play. In fact on that play, the throw had the runner beat. Normally, if the throw has the runner beat it's an automatic out. Not for the Sox.

What about all of the home runs called foul in the previous two years? Close plays at first, never go to the Sox on either side of it.

this team continues to have to overcome bad calls, and I would quess it would wear on them.

The call on Crede was correct. It just seems odd that "this" crew is the only crew I have seen enforce this rule in years.

C-Dawg
04-28-2005, 01:59 PM
2) Wednesday afternoon, yet again, we can point the fingers at the dumb umps and blame them for the loss, but the fact that we only managed 1 run against Kirk fricking Saarloos is a joke. The guy never had a 1-2-3 inning yet all we scored was one run? Amazing outting by Garcia goes to waste.

I agree; we had a LOT of baserunners throughout the game with nothing to show for it.

Fake Chet Lemon
04-28-2005, 02:01 PM
Big question in my mind is the attitude. I like the chemistry and all. The guys seem to play hard, etc. BUT I remember back to last year and Hunter's play at the plate. Ozzie has made a big deal about Lee not retaliating with the DP at second. Fast forward... We just came out of a series where our 2nd baseman was taken out (Iguchi) and our hitters were PLUNKED six times, resulting in two ejections (Ozzie and Crede), yet we don't retaliate? Ok, its a 1-1 game and you want to try to salvage a win, but did anyone feel that they were going to win it after the top of the ninth yesterday? With Dye at short, Widger a 3rd and no bench left? Durazo should have been planted on his ass by Marte. Its one of those moves that may have lost them the game but might have inspired a team for the season.

I'd like to overall see a little more Killer Instinct attitude in these types of situations as well, but I don't think it's worth getting a pitcher and Ozzie suspended here. Sending a message to Oakland doesn't do us much. Sending a message to a divisional foe is worth the suspension risk. You can't let a team you play 19 times each and every year get a mental edge on you.

soxtalker
04-28-2005, 02:12 PM
....
4) We're still 16-6. It's amazing how spoiled we've been this month. We experience a 2 game losing streak for the first time this year and a lot of Sox fans are starting to panic. Keep in mind that if the Sox win tomorrow night or Saturday night, they will tie the franchise record for wins in April. If they win both nights, we break the record.

...

Well, I'll take an opposite view. During the winning streak, I often had the feeling that they were not playing as well as the record indicated. They should have lost some of those games. The hitting was poor, and they had some very timely double plays to get them out of jams. One interpretation, of course, is that it was great play on our part. Another interpretation is that we were a bit lucky, and things will even out. That's what I think happened in the past two games.

Look, I'm happy that they have a great record. And the season has been lots of fun so far. But they do not have a perfect team. It took a couple of injuries to expose major flaws. Fortunately, it doesn't appear to have affected our pitchers, or we'd really be hurting.

I wouldn't call this "panic". It's just that it is hard to get many people to talk about problems when you're on a winning streak. Now that we've lost a couple of games, those problems tend to be more evident.

ja1022
04-28-2005, 02:56 PM
BUT I remember back to last year and Hunter's play at the plate.

Fast forward... We just came out of a series where our 2nd baseman was taken out (Iguchi) and our hitters were PLUNKED six times, resulting in two ejections (Ozzie and Crede), yet we don't retaliate?

I agree. In fact, I expected, and thought Buerhle should have put someone on their ass after Harden hit Everett on Tuesday. Harden's hitting Everett was clearly intentional and should have been answered. I don't believe in the idea about waiting to retaliate some other time. To me that's a bunch of bull****.

Last year's Hunter/Burke thing took away their swagger. On the other hand, five years ago, that melee with Detroit had alot to do with bringing that 2000 team together and giving them a swagger. If somebody needs their ass kicked, I'd like to see this team do it.

Ol' No. 2
04-28-2005, 06:10 PM
The call on Crede was correct. It just seems odd that "this" crew is the only crew I have seen enforce this rule in years.It is correct according to the rule book, but then the strike zone is also supposed to extend to the bottom of the armpits, too. If an umpire suddenly called a batter out on a high strike in a critical situation, would that be correct? The fact that no one ever enforces it until Wendelstadt decided to choose this particular moment is exactly why it's incorrect.

ondafarm
04-28-2005, 06:16 PM
Now this has been bothering me. You cannot only warn one team. It's against the rules of baseball. You have to warn both teams. Yet two Sox batters got hit yesterday (even if the second one was disallowed) and nothing was done.

I think the hitting of Carl Everett should have resulted in an immediate ejection. That was clearly intentional.

ondafarm
04-28-2005, 06:23 PM
The call on Crede was correct. It just seems odd that "this" crew is the only crew I have seen enforce this rule in years.

If I was KW I'd call a meeting with Selig and Wendelstat and ask W to explain why he made the call. When he cites the rule and says it was the 'correct' one then I'd pull a tape from my pocket and show the 50 some times when Wendelstat was an umpire and a batter was hit. Since he's never(?) made that call before I'd turn to Selig and say "this guy needs to be fired immediately for blowing all 50 of these calls."

Enforce the rule all the time or never. Enforce it selectively and you're a chump.

If Selig does nothing I hand the tape to the national media and repeat the dog and pony.

Ol' No. 2
04-28-2005, 06:35 PM
If I was KW I'd call a meeting with Selig and Wendelstat and ask W to explain why he made the call. When he cites the rule and says it was the 'correct' one then I'd pull a tape from my pocket and show the 50 some times when Wendelstat was an umpire and a batter was hit. Since he's never(?) made that call before I'd turn to Selig and say "this guy needs to be fired immediately for blowing all 50 of these calls."

Enforce the rule all the time or never. Enforce it selectively and you're a chump.

If Selig does nothing I hand the tape to the national media and repeat the dog and pony.This is best handled behind the scenes. Going public only makes it harder for the league to do something, since they will appear to be bending to a team's public campaign. I'd have to assume Kenny will send a tape to the league along with a complaint. The only reason The Pimple has a job is because of his father. But with enough complaints, even his father can't protect him.

mealfred13
04-28-2005, 08:11 PM
The call on Crede was correct. It just seems odd that "this" crew is the only crew I have seen enforce this rule in years.

I'm gonna go against the norm here and say the call was blown.

Crede maintains he was trying to turn away from the pitch, and if you look at the side-angle of the play, you'll see he's telling the truth.

Now, that said, I want you all to hold you arms up like you're holding a bat, with your left elbow out in front of you. Then, turn your left shoulder away from the "pitcher" and watch what happens to your elbow... This is the same thing that can be seen on the side-angle replay.

From the front angle, it looks like you're just dropping your elbow, but from the side, you see the shoulder come down and back, and the elbow down and back as well.

Sure, Crede might have purposely turned his shoulder away, knowing his elbow would be more exposed, but he did try to protect himself by turning his shoulder away from the ball.

Bottom line, the call is still bogus.

Uncle_Patrick
04-28-2005, 08:16 PM
I think the hitting of Carl Everett should have resulted in an immediate ejection. That was clearly intentional.

Was Oakland even warned after that? Of all the hit by pitches, that's the one I believe was on purpose. Harden was losing it and looking very pissed.

whitesoxwilkes
04-28-2005, 08:24 PM
Last year's Hunter/Burke thing took away their swagger. On the other hand, five years ago, that melee with Detroit had alot to do with bringing that 2000 team together and giving them a swagger. If somebody needs their ass kicked, I'd like to see this team do it.

Hmmmm... we play Detroit this weekend.

Don't get me wrong, I generally dislike violence in baseball, but I wouldn't mind seeing a little tete-a-tete on the field to really spark these guys.

kojak
04-28-2005, 08:51 PM
Living 30 minutes east of Oakland with in-laws who are A's fans, these 2 losses were bitter pills. We could have and should have swept this series.

But...

we came into our Bermuda Triangle and it became a Twilight Zone, if I may mix my metaphors. Bizarre happenings. But we were in every game and did not really get outplayed. I definitely do not believe that this series showed the A's still have our number; only that it took some weird plays, bad calls and general odd funkiness to steal this series from us.

It is 2 losses and we could easily start a 10-game winning streak tomorrow.

We go home and Life goes on...

However-- we made a big mistake not knocking down one of their guys. Ozzie needs to show some cajones, cause right now he is not walking the talk....

ja1022
04-28-2005, 09:04 PM
Living 30 minutes east of Oakland with in-laws who are A's fans, these 2 losses were bitter pills. We could have and should have swept this series.

But...

we came into our Bermuda Triangle and it became a Twilight Zone, if I may mix my metaphors. Bizarre happenings. But we were in every game and did not really get outplayed. I definitely do not believe that this series showed the A's still have our number; only that it took some weird plays, bad calls and general odd funkiness to steal this series from us.

It is 2 losses and we could easily start a 10-game winning streak tomorrow.

We go home and Life goes on...

However-- we made a big mistake not knocking down one of their guys. Ozzie needs to show some cajones, cause right now he is not walking the talk....

Agreed on all points with one minor clarification. Ozzie shouldn't have to "order" a knock down pitch. Likewise, I don't think that he'd ever tell a pitcher not to do it. That's why I was really surprised that Buehrle didn't take care of business the other night after Harden hit Everett. I figured Buerhle as the type of competitor and teammate to back his guys up.

Even if all six HBPs in the series were unintentional, that's too many and somebody has to go down because of it.

batmanZoSo
04-28-2005, 09:19 PM
Even if all six HBPs in the series were unintentional, that's too many and somebody has to go down because of it.

I agree. You hit that many of our guys, you better look out. It doesn't matter if they're intentional or otherwise. Just give them something really high and really tight. You don't have to put a runner on, but let them know you don't like it.