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View Full Version : White Sox Defense-Baseball Tonight's Thoughts


Chisox003
04-26-2005, 10:48 PM
Alright guys, I know that we are all sick of the Baseball Tonight/ESPN B.S.

But I "accidently" turned on Baseball Tonight a few minutes ago, and they were actually talking about our Sox, and our defense...

Now I didnt catch the entire segment, but what I got from it was basically that Reynolds, Kruk, and Boston Gammons are "worried" about our defense...

Pretty much what was said between Reynolds and Kruk was that the defense isnt really that good, but it is improved over last year and years past...
Gammons added about how old our pitchers are (:rolleyes: ) and said KW and Ozzie want to see Mccarthy up in the bigs in case Contreras or El Duque falter...He added that he doesnt like our corner outfielders, and the middle of our lineup, and thinks it will hurt us "come summer" playing in a hitters ballpark

What does everybody think of this defense this year? Thus far, Im pretty happy...Up the middle, Uribe and Gooch look great turning two...Crede is solid at 3rd, we know what Rowand can do in CF, and I always thought Dye was a pretty good outfielder with a good arm...That leaves Podsednik in LF, who isnt exactly bad, and Konerko and Pierzynski behind the plate...

Should this defense be given more credit?

SoxxoS
04-26-2005, 10:58 PM
Because they don't know who Iguchi is. Uribe was a bust in Colorado...and if you aren't good at a very young age...ESPN doesn't know who you are. See them having a banana in their pants over Rich Harden. Highly touted who is good at a young age. The opposite of Harden is Crede, who was also highly touted but has not played to near his ceiling thusfar.

Podsednik was too old as a rookie even though he had a good rookie year...but last year put him on all the "experts" **** list.

Rowand broke out last year...and going into last season, the scouting report was that he doesn't play good defense. This was well documented on WSI. He proved everyone wrong, but they don't really care. They care about the scouting report.

El Duque was a good story with the Yanks..but he isn't big news anymore. And Contreras just didn't pitch well as a Yankee, so they are going to keep that stigma on him for who knows long.

Those are the reasons why those players don't get respect, in a nutshell.

fquaye149
04-26-2005, 11:02 PM
Alright guys, I know that we are all sick of the Baseball Tonight/ESPN B.S.

But I "accidently" turned on Baseball Tonight a few minutes ago, and they were actually talking about our Sox, and our defense...

Now I didnt catch the entire segment, but what I got from it was basically that Reynolds, Kruk, and Boston Gammons are "worried" about our defense...

Pretty much what was said between Reynolds and Kruk was that the defense isnt really that good, but it is improved over last year and years past...
Gammons added about how old our pitchers are (:rolleyes: ) and said KW and Ozzie want to see Mccarthy up in the bigs in case Contreras or El Duque falter...He added that he doesnt like our corner outfielders, and the middle of our lineup, and thinks it will hurt us "come summer" playing in a hitters ballpark

What does everybody think of this defense this year? Thus far, Im pretty happy...Up the middle, Uribe and Gooch look great turning two...Crede is solid at 3rd, we know what Rowand can do in CF, and I always thought Dye was a pretty good outfielder with a good arm...That leaves Podsednik in LF, who isnt exactly bad, and Konerko and Pierzynski behind the plate...

Should this defense be given more credit?

Not having seen Bbtn, I have to go by what you're saying. I think Daver would agree with them about our defense. However, Our pitchers are nowhere near old. I bet if you added all their ages up, they wouldn't even scrape Gammons tally of years. Contreras is in his early 30's, Duque is pushing 40 but the rest are mid 20's. Old? Sure.

And the middle of the lineup as hurting us in a hitter's park? Let's see. Rowand had 30, Dye had 20, Konerko had 40 and who knows how many HR Frank is capable of hitting while healthy.

As far as the defense goes, I think it's all right. Nothing really worth discussing. No real deficiencies (though Daver might argue AJ...and he's probably right), but some strengths (Up the middle, especially Uribe). Which is nice.

RavenswoodFan
04-27-2005, 12:59 AM
Well with all the errors being committed tonight it's hard to say our defense isn't a little suspect as of late. With the way Dye has played we just might lose this one.....

Tragg
04-27-2005, 01:01 AM
Well with all the errors being committed tonight it's hard to say our defense isn't a little suspect as of late. With the way Dye has played we just might lose this one.....

It would help if we'd play our first string defense.

What the $%*$# is Willie Harris playing late inning short stop for? Uribe get hurt?

SoxxoS
04-27-2005, 01:04 AM
Since we lost we might LEAD on baseball tonight.

Douchebag Reynolds will start by saying "I told you this wouldn't last.

SoxFan48
04-27-2005, 01:09 AM
Recent defensive play has been less than impressive...Willie Harris in particuar.

Question: Why did Ozzie send MB out for the seventh after six innings of batting practice?

Tragg
04-27-2005, 01:14 AM
Recent defensive play has been less than impressive...Willie Harris in particuar.

Question: Why did Ozzie send MB out for the seventh after six innings of batting practice?

With a rested bullpen; and with a manager who has used the hell out of the bullpen. Why is Willie Harris in the game? Sad.

SOX ADDICT '73
04-27-2005, 01:16 AM
It would help if we'd play our first string defense.

What the $%*$# is Willie Harris playing late inning short stop for? Uribe get hurt?
Oakland systematically removed our first string defense over the last two games with the HBP and the "inside-pitch-causing-groin-pull" maneuver. Great strategy!

fquaye149
04-27-2005, 05:24 AM
With a rested bullpen; and with a manager who has used the hell out of the bullpen. Why is Willie Harris in the game? Sad.

Wow. I'd love to drive with Tragg in the car. Hope I never get stuck in a traffic jam.

Fredsox
04-27-2005, 07:40 AM
First of all, I'm personally touched by their concern. The fact that they're worried will, I am certain, help the White Sox through this difficult period in their lives, having lost 5 games so far this season.

Secondly, I think our defense is better than average. We will have our crappy games (see last night for example), but our defense has won quite a few games for us as well.

Thirdly, BBTN can go pound salt up where the moon doesn't shine.

Jurr
04-27-2005, 09:14 AM
Oakland systematically removed our first string defense over the last two games with the HBP and the "inside-pitch-causing-groin-pull" maneuver. Great strategy!
There needs to be some retaliation going on. A great April bench clearing brawl would really get things going even better for the Sox. See 2000 for an example. The guys have to stand up for themselves, and so far we've just been taking all of these HBP's. It is getting ridiculous.

tstrike2000
04-27-2005, 10:01 AM
Now I didnt catch the entire segment, but what I got from it was basically that Reynolds, Kruk, and Boston Gammons are "worried" about our defense...

Pretty much what was said between Reynolds and Kruk was that the defense isnt really that good, but it is improved over last year and years past...
Gammons added about how old our pitchers are (:rolleyes: ) and said KW and Ozzie want to see McCarthy up in the bigs in case Contreras or El Duque falter...He added that he doesnt like our corner outfielders, and the middle of our lineup, and thinks it will hurt us "come summer" playing in a hitters ballpark


The defense and the pitching have been rehashed so many times...I think the horse can't be beaten anymore because it's just a pile of bones. And some people listen to these people's opinions about us why????

dcb33
04-27-2005, 10:10 AM
There needs to be some retaliation going on. A great April bench clearing brawl would really get things going even better for the Sox. See 2000 for an example. The guys have to stand up for themselves, and so far we've just been taking all of these HBP's. It is getting ridiculous.

Absolutely. I have a feeling Oakland is trying to avenge us for knocking out Eric Chavez last year, and we need to fire back and defend ourselves before Oakland thinks they can throw at us at will without suffering any consequences.

LVSoxFan
04-27-2005, 10:30 AM
In response to above, Willie was playing SS because Ozuna got hit on the wrist by a pitch.

I don't mind our defense at all, particularly the infield. Crede, Uribe, Iguchi, Konerko? Come on! That's the best I've seen in years. Yes, the error thing the past few games is weird, but perhaps that's a sign of road fatigue?

I've seen nothing but good plays from Pods and Aaron in CF. Dye sure made some bad choices last night, but I'm not going to hang a guy only 21 games in. A.J. has made some great stops as a catcher, and turned the game around with his flick to Marte on that wild pitch in K.C.

This is simply more poke-holes-in-the-stepchild mentality, IMO, from the clowns at ESPN. If we're not marquee names like the BoSox or Yankees, or reliable winnners like Minnesota, or sentimental favorites like the Cubs, we must be a fluke, right? So expect to hear this talk all season.

balke
04-27-2005, 10:37 AM
not only is the above true, but Crede was barely moving on ground balls to the left side, probably because he has a bruised foot. Willie was playing too deep last night, had to have extra range, and made a little league error.

He should just never be at SS. I'd rather see Iguchi move over. There might have to be a move made for Fields if Crede can't play the field right now.

Flight #24
04-27-2005, 10:47 AM
Alright guys, I know that we are all sick of the Baseball Tonight/ESPN B.S.

But I "accidently" turned on Baseball Tonight a few minutes ago, and they were actually talking about our Sox, and our defense...

Now I didnt catch the entire segment, but what I got from it was basically that Reynolds, Kruk, and Boston Gammons are "worried" about our defense...

Pretty much what was said between Reynolds and Kruk was that the defense isnt really that good, but it is improved over last year and years past...
Gammons added about how old our pitchers are (:rolleyes: ) and said KW and Ozzie want to see Mccarthy up in the bigs in case Contreras or El Duque falter...He added that he doesnt like our corner outfielders, and the middle of our lineup, and thinks it will hurt us "come summer" playing in a hitters ballpark

What does everybody think of this defense this year? Thus far, Im pretty happy...Up the middle, Uribe and Gooch look great turning two...Crede is solid at 3rd, we know what Rowand can do in CF, and I always thought Dye was a pretty good outfielder with a good arm...That leaves Podsednik in LF, who isnt exactly bad, and Konerko and Pierzynski behind the plate...

Should this defense be given more credit?

How funny is this coming a day after BP puts out an article that we're #1 in "defensive efficiency"? Even if you're not a BP fan, I'd expect "baseball experts" to at least be aware of what they're saying. But I guess it's too much to ask such "experts" to do more than scan a roster and go off of their gut memory.

At least we should be pleased that they didn't say "Jose Valentin's D at short is going to end up costing them"

infohawk
04-27-2005, 10:52 AM
Because they don't know who Iguchi is. Uribe was a bust in Colorado...and if you aren't good at a very young age...ESPN doesn't know who you are. See them having a banana in their pants over Rich Harden. Highly touted who is good at a young age.

I remember how Gammons used to rave on and on about Michael Cuddyer and Michael Restovich with the Twins. He also liked Texiera with the Rangers and now he really likes Nick Swisher and Bobby Crosby. Not that some of these guys aren't good players, but Gammons does seem to get the most excited about younger players. He's written some positive things about Corwin Malone as well. Nothing wrong with that, but thats what we should come to expect. One positive thing I will say about Gammons is that he was one of the first analysts to recognize that the 2000 Sox were for real.

A major problem with baseball analysts is that they have a "what have you done for me lately" kind of attitude. They look at a team's potential future performance through the prism of what they did the previous year. This is why there are always surprise teams. By definition, a surprise team is one that is suceeding where in previous years it failed.

The Twins will always be the favorite until they lose out on the division. The White Sox will be seen as a fluke until they win the division. If the Sox win the division, they will most likely be seen as the favorites the following year regardless of what other teams do to improve themselves. In the eyes of many analysts, a team is a pretender until they win something.

Many of these guys also like to make their "chic" picks. The Cubs, 2004 Royals and 2005 Indians. A pick is "chic" if it comes along with a storyline. The Cubs storyline is obvious, decades of futulity and pain. The 2004 Royals because of the underdog out-of-nowhere factor. The Indians because of the Shapiro-led massive rebuilding effort where a perennial playoff team beginning to show it's age was dismantled to acquire a boatload of young, talented players.

The problem the Sox have nationally is they haven't won anything and they are not a "chic" pick for want of a good storyline. They are the perennial second-place team. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. Its not the case that analysts don't like them. The problem is they are just ignored.

balke
04-27-2005, 10:55 AM
I seriously don't care about anything ESPN says. Our Defense is sick. Great utility players, and an underrated SS and second baseman. Podsednik hasn't been a gold glove out there, but he's made some tough plays. I doubt they were talking about DYe when they were talking Defense, and he's been the worst outfielder.

Probably the worst at D for us has been AJ with all his passed balls, but he more than makes up for it with the way he calls a game.

Jaffar
04-27-2005, 11:41 AM
I don't know if anybody touched on this but Mcafee (sp?) has a couple extra feet of infield dirt and that really throws off infielders on where they stand, how they approach grounders etc. Hopefully it is just playing in Oakland that will be the problem.

ode to veeck
04-27-2005, 12:17 PM
who cares about the tabloid BB tonight on ESPN. Last night's 1st threee innings should have been enough to illustrate their cluelessness (DP each inning by the Sox to help a struggling Burly-Mon)

That said, given our team's Ozzie Ball strategy, I would like to see a lot more discipline by outfielders on hitting the cutoff and keeping runners to 1st and 2nd on hits. This can be a huge difference over the long haul on a defensive club. Last night Dye and Byrnsey allowed runners to advance by throwing to the wrong base/missing the cutoff, while Aaron made a great play later in the game hoilding the advancing runner to 2nd on a single. Ozzie, get on the stick here and get your outfield as disciplined as the infield!

chidonez
04-27-2005, 01:37 PM
The point may have already been made, but I don't question any of our player's ability to play decent defense. That said, it worries me that we have so many position switchers. I just don't see how Willie Harris, for instance, but it's not just him, is going to play his best if he's always switching from 2nd to short, or even center.

hawkjt
04-27-2005, 02:02 PM
Dye has been horrible all year defensively. His defense has been worse than his offense and he is hitting like .170. that says it all. Constantly overthrowing cutoff man, misplaying a grounder into a triple and then last nites drop which is inexplicable. He is not focusing evidently. He is clearly a step down from Maggs in all areas so far.

That drop last nite reminded me of D'Angelo's gaffe a couple of years ago. Only in Oakland do we lose that game last nite. And of course we get to go back there in July. Why the hell do we play 6 road games in oakland back to back years?

go out and wash this nightmare out of our systems by winning today. Go Sox!!

Goose
04-27-2005, 05:58 PM
Dye is becoming a liability on O and D! Oz needs to start playing someone else...Timo? Thoughts?

Daver
04-27-2005, 06:26 PM
AJ's overall job at his position can be summed up in one word.


Brutal.

balke
04-27-2005, 06:55 PM
AJ's overall job at his position can be summed up in one word.


Brutal.

I hate the passed balls, but in the end pitchers pitch for him. 1 run through 7 innings of beauty for FG today.

Daver
04-27-2005, 07:27 PM
I hate the passed balls, but in the end pitchers pitch for him. 1 run through 7 innings of beauty for FG today.

Passed balls, and the inabality to hang onto the ball with a play at the plate, greatly eclipse his ability to let Cooper call half the pitches from the dugout.

SoxxoS
04-27-2005, 07:29 PM
Passed balls, and the inabality to hang onto the ball with a play at the plate, greatly eclipse his ability to let Cooper call half the pitches from the dugout.

Unfortunately, although a catchers main job in the AL is defense and to call a good game, this team needs his stick.

mealfred13
04-27-2005, 08:38 PM
Passed balls, and the inabality to hang onto the ball with a play at the plate, greatly eclipse his ability to let Cooper call half the pitches from the dugout.

Is that really the case? I was under the impression he was just calling games himself.
(and to clarify, I'm not being sarcastic)

Daver
04-27-2005, 08:53 PM
Is that really the case? I was under the impression he was just calling games himself.
(and to clarify, I'm not being sarcastic)

He spends way too much time looking into the dugout with no one on base to be calling the pitches himself.


As far as calling a game, I doubt he would even know where to start when it came to positioning outfielders.

JUribe1989
04-27-2005, 09:00 PM
Please Please Please can we never have a baseball tonight thread again! I am so sick of Baseball Tonight.

balke
04-27-2005, 09:01 PM
Obviously noone knows how to position Dye on the bench.