PDA

View Full Version : Would you make this trade if you were KW...Dotel?


SoxxoS
04-21-2005, 01:40 AM
Runaway rumors go in what's the score, so I saved the mods some time-

Gio Gonzalez and Mike Spidale (or another mid-level prospect) for Octavio Dotel.

Huston Street has been spectacular, and Beane loves him. Dotel has been rumored to have fallen out of favor over there. We have closer problem or at least a possible closer problem. Closer by committee is not going to work in a possible game 7 of the playoffs. I want someone I can trust and have confidence in. Does anyone really trust Shingo (even if he improves, which may not happen)

I think Dotel would be a welcome addition and can lead us deep in the playoffs.

Thoughts?

TDog
04-21-2005, 01:56 AM
...
I think Dotel would be a welcome addition and can lead us deep in the playoffs.

Thoughts?

I think it would be a mistake to anoint one pitcher as closer and instill in him the ego that requires the manager to commit to winning or losing with him at the end of a close game. If you want to do that, you would need a better pitcher than Dotel to be successful.

There's a reason he's not pitching for Houston anymore.

Kogs35
04-21-2005, 07:38 AM
dotel is a head case, i wouldnt want him.

FedEx227
04-21-2005, 08:44 AM
don't mess with the chemistry...its working, keep it that way.

mdep524
04-21-2005, 09:18 AM
Runaway rumors go in what's the score, so I saved the mods some time-

Gio Gonzalez and Mike Spidale (or another mid-level prospect) for Octavio Dotel.

Huston Street has been spectacular, and Beane loves him. Dotel has been rumored to have fallen out of favor over there. We have closer problem or at least a possible closer problem. Closer by committee is not going to work in a possible game 7 of the playoffs. I want someone I can trust and have confidence in. Does anyone really trust Shingo (even if he improves, which may not happen)

I think Dotel would be a welcome addition and can lead us deep in the playoffs.

Thoughts? Hmmm, Spidale and Gio seems a little steep for a closer who has fallen out of favor, IMO. Though you're right, Spidale seems like Beane's sort of guy.

I'm not a huge Dotel fan anyway, so probably wouldn't do that trade. For a reduced price I'd think about it but would likely pass. The one closer I would have my eye on is Billy Wagner.

The Phillies play is a wildly difficult division, where even a good team could be buried in 4th or 5th place by midseason. If they fall out of the race I could see them mulling deals for Wagner, who I believe is a FA after the season. I've always liked Wagner- now there is a dependable arm in the 'pen! Just something to keep an eye on...

Tekijawa
04-21-2005, 09:25 AM
Gio will be a STUD, I wouldn't make the trade!

Fungo
04-21-2005, 10:07 AM
In a word....NO

SOXintheBURGH
04-21-2005, 10:17 AM
Hmmm, Spidale and Gio seems a little steep for a closer who has fallen out of favor, IMO. Though you're right, Spidale seems like Beane's sort of guy.

I'm not a huge Dotel fan anyway, so probably wouldn't do that trade. For a reduced price I'd think about it but would likely pass. The one closer I would have my eye on is Billy Wagner.

The Phillies play is a wildly difficult division, where even a good team could be buried in 4th or 5th place by midseason. If they fall out of the race I could see them mulling deals for Wagner, who I believe is a FA after the season. I've always liked Wagner- now there is a dependable arm in the 'pen! Just something to keep an eye on...

<National Media> The Cubs will address their closer situation by getting Billy Wagner when it comes time for their playoff push. </National Media>

LauraJ14
04-21-2005, 10:24 AM
Runaway rumors go in what's the score, so I saved the mods some time-

Gio Gonzalez and Mike Spidale (or another mid-level prospect) for Octavio Dotel.

Huston Street has been spectacular, and Beane loves him. Dotel has been rumored to have fallen out of favor over there. We have closer problem or at least a possible closer problem. Closer by committee is not going to work in a possible game 7 of the playoffs. I want someone I can trust and have confidence in. Does anyone really trust Shingo (even if he improves, which may not happen)

I think Dotel would be a welcome addition and can lead us deep in the playoffs.

Thoughts?


What's wrong with Hermanson as a closer? Why do we need to trade to get Dotel? Don't like this trade idea at all. Let Beane unload salary on some other team.

balke
04-21-2005, 10:32 AM
I don't know who these guys are.... but if that's what would push Shingo or Cotts out, and they continue to struggle I might not mind. Dotel would take a backseat to Marte or DH though I'd hope. Dotel isn't as good as he used to be.

HomeFish
04-21-2005, 11:02 AM
Before he was a terrible closer, Octavio Dotel was a lights-out setup man. Dustin, Shingo, or Damaso could always use a guy like him in the 8th inning.

hawkjt
04-21-2005, 04:04 PM
Houston Street was not so spectacular last nite. He gave up 3 runs in the 8th last nite. I am sure he will be good. But not yet.

wsoxfan
04-21-2005, 04:40 PM
Dotel sucks...

DaleJRFan
04-21-2005, 04:46 PM
Cotts for Dotel, sure. Not Gio or Spidale, though.

SOXSINCE'70
04-21-2005, 04:51 PM
Save the trade talk for July.Right now,it ain't broke,
so don't bother fixing it.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Vestigio
04-21-2005, 05:04 PM
Runaway rumors go in what's the score, so I saved the mods some time-

Gio Gonzalez and Mike Spidale (or another mid-level prospect) for Octavio Dotel.

Huston Street has been spectacular, and Beane loves him. Dotel has been rumored to have fallen out of favor over there. We have closer problem or at least a possible closer problem. Closer by committee is not going to work in a possible game 7 of the playoffs. I want someone I can trust and have confidence in. Does anyone really trust Shingo (even if he improves, which may not happen)

I think Dotel would be a welcome addition and can lead us deep in the playoffs.

Thoughts?

http://www.wycombe.gov.uk/uploads/images/Complaints%20thumbs%20down.jpg

Ol' No. 2
04-21-2005, 05:19 PM
Good move. This team sucks right now. They definately need some shaking up.:rolleyes:

NSSoxFan
04-21-2005, 05:23 PM
Dotel?...


:chunks

SoxxoS
04-21-2005, 05:42 PM
Good move. This team sucks right now. They definately need some shaking up.:rolleyes:

Great insight by the last three posters.

Because we know how solid Shingo has been, and who needs a closer anyway? Especially in the playoffs. And we probably are going to play .750 ball the rest of the way...we might even break the win record. And surely we have full confidence in Shingo of the 9+ ERA. Good post. :rolleyes:

And if not closer...how about a lights out setup man? Thank you to Homefish for being the voice of reason in this thread (never thought I would say that).

hose
04-21-2005, 05:55 PM
Runaway rumors go in what's the score, so I saved the mods some time-

Gio Gonzalez and Mike Spidale (or another mid-level prospect) for Octavio Dotel.

Huston Street has been spectacular, and Beane loves him. Dotel has been rumored to have fallen out of favor over there. We have closer problem or at least a possible closer problem. Closer by committee is not going to work in a possible game 7 of the playoffs. I want someone I can trust and have confidence in. Does anyone really trust Shingo (even if he improves, which may not happen)

I think Dotel would be a welcome addition and can lead us deep in the playoffs.

Thoughts?


I would say no at this time to that trade only because I think Shingo can work out his recent problems.

The Sox pen is really in good shape in my opinion and Ozzie does have alternatives at the closer role.

PicktoCLick72
04-21-2005, 06:09 PM
Absolutley Not.

Ol' No. 2
04-21-2005, 06:12 PM
Great insight by the last three posters.

Because we know how solid Shingo has been, and who needs a closer anyway? Especially in the playoffs. And we probably are going to play .750 ball the rest of the way...we might even break the win record. And surely we have full confidence in Shingo of the 9+ ERA. Good post. :rolleyes:

And if not closer...how about a lights out setup man? Thank you to Homefish for being the voice of reason in this thread (never thought I would say that).



You mean as opposed to knowing that Shingo will suck all season long and there won't be more pressing needs later? Right. Have you been consulting with Miss Cleo?

I'd think you might want to wait more than 16 games before revamping the bullpen, but hey, that's just me.

This team may, in fact, need something mid-season. If the past is any guide, it's almost a certainty that some part of the team will not perform as well as we'd like and will need to be addressed. There might be an injury to a key player. Making a move like this now is stupid, if only because you're trading away some of your best bargaining chips addressing a non-existant need, and won't have them later on.

SoxxoS
04-21-2005, 06:59 PM
You mean as opposed to knowing that Shingo will suck all season long and there won't be more pressing needs later? Right. Have you been consulting with Miss Cleo?

I'd think you might want to wait more than 16 games before revamping the bullpen, but hey, that's just me.

This team may, in fact, need something mid-season. If the past is any guide, it's almost a certainty that some part of the team will not perform as well as we'd like and will need to be addressed. There might be an injury to a key player. Making a move like this now is stupid, if only because you're trading away some of your best bargaining chips addressing a non-existant need, and won't have them later on.

I haven't been consulting Miss Cleo...but this I know...Shingo was not proved before 2004...this isn't Billy Wagner or Gagne here. We can't say for sure whether he will come around or not. This is ESPECIALLY true because he relies a lot more than most closers on smoke and mirrors and a frisbee. Not to mention the fact that mostly everyone in the AL has seen him and had an offseason for the scouts to see his weaknesses.

I don't want to "revamp" the bullpen...but Dotel is one player that would be a welcome addition. I don't mind Hermanson as a closer (if he can prove it), but that would leave the set up position empty (other than Marte)...b/c if Shingo can't hack it as a closer, he isn't going to be able to hack it period. It doesn't matter which role he is in. Dotel is a lights out set-up man.

MeanFish
04-21-2005, 07:09 PM
I haven't been consulting Miss Cleo...but this I know...Shingo was not proved before 2004...this isn't Billy Wagner or Gagne here. We can't say for sure whether he will come around or not. This is ESPECIALLY true because he relies a lot more than most closers on smoke and mirrors and a frisbee. Not to mention the fact that mostly everyone in the AL has seen him and had an offseason for the scouts to see his weaknesses.

I don't want to "revamp" the bullpen...but Dotel is one player that would be a welcome addition. I don't mind Hermanson as a closer (if he can prove it), but that would leave the set up position empty (other than Marte)...b/c if Shingo can't hack it as a closer, he isn't going to be able to hack it period. It doesn't matter which role he is in. Dotel is a lights out set-up man.

Shingo Takatsu is a well-seasoned veteran who relies much more on location and changing speeds than he does on "smoke and mirrors." If you think that speed changing and location are indeed smoke and mirrors, Greg Maddux would like a word with you. I'm fairly certain that most hitters in Japan can catch up to a 85 MPH fastball right down the middle and send it out of the park. It wouldn't shock me if Shingo's had these troubles before early in the year in the past as well, only to be lights out late in the season. He's never given up a run in the Japanese postseason. They never said anything about the first month :-P

Give him time. Last year he struggled early, but it wasn't as big of a deal because Dr. Strangelove (Ozzie) and Dr. Frankenstein (KW) were still trying to see if they could get a spark out of the proverbial lighter that is Koch and bring him back to life while Shingo dwindled in the background, trying to find himself (and did. Bobby Cox was in awe, and he clearly knows nothing about the game). I think you can expect a similar trend this year. If he keeps converting five out of six while he finds himself, I'll be pretty darned happy.

Let's not repeat the Foulke mistake. Let history guide us.

Vestigio
04-21-2005, 08:26 PM
Great insight by the last three posters.


Dotel is as much of a question mark as Shingo. So I'll take my chances with Shingo and keep our prospects...

Chisox003
04-21-2005, 08:32 PM
Hermanson will be closing by June

I dont see any big trades this year coming for the Sox unless there is a major injury, so this one is surely not happening.

MeanFish
04-21-2005, 08:34 PM
Another point: Why would KW work with "The Gypsy" on a deal for another closer, considering what happened the LAST time we made that move?

:bkoch:

I should probably mention that "The Gypsy" nickname for:

:fobbgod:

"Billy is my name, and ripping people off is my game. Haha, suckers!"

RKMeibalane
04-21-2005, 09:29 PM
No, no, and no.

Ol' No. 2
04-21-2005, 09:56 PM
I haven't been consulting Miss Cleo...but this I know...Shingo was not proved before 2004...this isn't Billy Wagner or Gagne here. We can't say for sure whether he will come around or not. This is ESPECIALLY true because he relies a lot more than most closers on smoke and mirrors and a frisbee. Not to mention the fact that mostly everyone in the AL has seen him and had an offseason for the scouts to see his weaknesses.

I don't want to "revamp" the bullpen...but Dotel is one player that would be a welcome addition. I don't mind Hermanson as a closer (if he can prove it), but that would leave the set up position empty (other than Marte)...b/c if Shingo can't hack it as a closer, he isn't going to be able to hack it period. It doesn't matter which role he is in. Dotel is a lights out set-up man.Oh. Another "Shingo's not a 'real' closer" thread. I get it now.

:chunks

pearso66
04-22-2005, 12:01 AM
If we want to trade for a proven closer, why would we trade for one who isn't proven? As far as I have seen, he hasn't shown that he can close. And we already have 4 setup men. If we convert 1 of them to closer, that leaves 3, we dont need dotel.

FarWestChicago
04-22-2005, 12:10 AM
Last I saw, which is quite frequently because of my location, Blowtel, well, blows. Why on Earth would we want one of Beane's true Blunders on our team? Just enjoy the debacle at the expense of the FOBB's for once. :D:

jordan23ventura
04-22-2005, 12:36 AM
Gio's ceiling is WAY too high to throw away for Dotel. If you're trading Gio, you had better be getting another starter or an everyday position player. Remember, we have Contreras and El Duque coming off the books in '06 and he and McCarthy, IMO, may turn out to be a big part of this organizations future.Besides, it is way too early to tell what our needs are yet. Dye, Rowand, Uribe, PK and AJ should pick the bats up soon. Crede, Pods, Iguchi, and Everett have been doing very well. Shingo, IMO, hasn't proven he isn't deserving of the closers role at this point, and the rest of the bullpen has been relatively solid. The starting staff has been excellent, so has the bench, so the only upgrade I even see right now might be with Cotts, but I'm still happy with him as a long reliever.

This is the one million dollar question: if this team starts hitting, and Crede, Pods, and Iguchi continue doing what they are doing, in what area do we have a need strong enough to warrant the dumping of some good prospects? If Garland continues his dominance and Contreras struggles, we just bring up McCarthy.

Overall, this is the deepest Sox roster I have seen in a while. Kudos to KW.

Mohoney
04-22-2005, 12:37 AM
No to Dotel.

No to any trade when you:

A) Have the best record in your league, let alone your division
B) Have only played 16 games in acquiring this record

Assuming our 6 guys in the bullpen stay healthy:

If a solid lefty reliever becomes available near the deadline, Cotts is not throwing strikes, said lefty poses too big an upgrade over Cotts to not make the move, the price is right in terms of prospects, AND one of the utility guys on this team isn't giving me anything of value to justify his roster spot, then and only then do I consider making a trade to bolster the bullpen. I slide the 2nd lefty into the late-inning mix and Neal becomes a 12th pitcher.

Otherwise, if Neal develops enough consistency with his command that I can get by with him as the 2nd lefty, there is not reason enough to warrant trading away a prospect with as much upside as Gio seems to have.

Who knows? Maybe Kevin Walker can have a dynamite year at AAA and pitch his way onto this club. Then Neal becomes a long man, and we don't have to give up any prospects at all.

owensmouth
04-22-2005, 02:13 AM
I don't know who these guys are.... but if that's what would push Shingo or Cotts out, and they continue to struggle I might not mind. Dotel would take a backseat to Marte or DH though I'd hope. Dotel isn't as good as he used to be.I thought both Cotts and Shingo did fine against the Tigers.

SOXSINCE'70
04-22-2005, 01:28 PM
Hermanson will be closing by June


If Shingo continues to struggle,it might be in early to mid May.

seanpmurphy
04-22-2005, 03:41 PM
I think it would be a mistake to anoint one pitcher as closer and instill in him the ego that requires the manager to commit to winning or losing with him at the end of a close game. If you want to do that, you would need a better pitcher than Dotel to be successful.

There's a reason he's not pitching for Houston anymore.

The reason he's not closing for Houston is cause they have Brad Lidge. Easily the best closer in the game right now. :)

I really have no opinion on the Dotel thing, other than at least he's not LaTroy Hawkins.

PAPChiSox729
04-22-2005, 04:27 PM
From what I have heard about Gonzalez, he seems to have electric stuff. Dotel has really lost his luster as a reliever ever since he became a closer. I am happy with our bullpen so far. I know some of their stats are a little inflated, but once everything settles in, our bullpen should be very solid without Dotel. I don't think another righty reliever is needed. Gonzalez and Spidale are a little too much for Dotel, so I would have to say NO.

SoxxoS
04-22-2005, 07:02 PM
You know who else had electric stuff? Jason Stumm, Kris Honel and Corwin Malone. You could of had the world for some of those guys at the right time...that is why I think Gio is a perfect trading piece. If he works out...that is the chance you take...but at least you went out swinging if he doesn't.

Flight #24
04-22-2005, 08:12 PM
You know who else had electric stuff? Jason Stumm, Kris Honel and Corwin Malone. You could of had the world for some of those guys at the right time...that is why I think Gio is a perfect trading piece. If he works out...that is the chance you take...but at least you went out swinging if he doesn't.

My problem isn't so much dealing Gio, as getting Dotel. IMO he's no closer, and you can get good setup guys cheaper than that. Esp if you can add some salary, which the Sox usually can when they're winning.

FarWestChicago
04-22-2005, 09:03 PM
You know who else had electric stuff? Jason Stumm, Kris Honel and Corwin Malone. You could of had the world for some of those guys at the right time...that is why I think Gio is a perfect trading piece. If he works out...that is the chance you take...but at least you went out swinging if he doesn't.Why do you keep ignoring the Blowtel blows part? What is your fascination with this clown?

pearso66
04-22-2005, 11:55 PM
Why do you keep ignoring the Blowtel blows part? What is your fascination with this clown?

He must feel that since Beane traded for him, he must be amazing, and if we can get him for the low low price of Gio, why not do it.

TheBull19
04-23-2005, 12:12 AM
Dotel sucks...

Yeah, his 12.9 K/9 rate last year and 10.9 career is totally unacceptable to me. I expect at least a 13-14 k rate minimum. Seriously, though, if you slid him into a set-up roll and Cotts back to AAA or the waiver wire, our bullpen would be killer. Killer.

SoxxoS
04-23-2005, 12:35 AM
Why do you keep ignoring the Blowtel blows part? What is your fascination with this clown?

See TheBull's post above. The guy has electric stuff, and would thrive in the role he used to dominate in...setting up.

milrtyme28
04-23-2005, 12:42 AM
lets not mess with what we have going right now, ok? not trades right now - this team is well balanced front to rear - lets let these guys mesh and see what happens. :smile:

Ol' No. 2
04-23-2005, 09:07 AM
Yeah, his 12.9 K/9 rate last year and 10.9 career is totally unacceptable to me. I expect at least a 13-14 k rate minimum. Seriously, though, if you slid him into a set-up roll and Cotts back to AAA or the waiver wire, our bullpen would be killer. Killer.I get it now. You just HAVE to have a whipping boy, and with Crede breaking out, Cotts is the best you've got. So let's screw up our farm system and trade for someone who doesn't add anything we need. Is Robbie Alomar still available?

TheBull19
04-24-2005, 07:22 PM
I get it now. You just HAVE to have a whipping boy, and with Crede breaking out, Cotts is the best you've got. So let's screw up our farm system...

Man, chill out, you'll give yourself an aneurysm.

When I saw that you posted on this thread, I somehow knew it would be an irate response to my post, so I temporarily took you off my ignore list to see if I was right, and wow, sure enough, I was. I must have some sort of sixth sense or something.

Ol' No. 2
04-24-2005, 07:38 PM
Man, chill out, you'll give yourself an aneurysm.

When I saw that you posted on this thread, I somehow knew it would be an irate response to my post, so I temporarily took you off my ignore list to see if I was right, and wow, sure enough, I was. I must have some sort of sixth sense or something.I'm devastated.