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elrod
04-20-2005, 12:03 PM
But I don't subscribe to ESPN Insider:(:
Anybody out there who does? What's he saying? He leads off by commenting, "The AL's best team so far appears to be going the closer-by-committee route between Shingo Takatsu, Dustin Hermanson and Damaso Marte. So, how did the White Sox get off to a 10-4 start despite a 5.08 ERA in the bullpen?"

FRANK FORT
04-20-2005, 12:08 PM
I haven't read the article, but the ERA is somewhat bloated due partly to the beating Vizcaino was forced to take from the Indians in extra innings.

Flight #24
04-20-2005, 12:09 PM
But I don't subscribe to ESPN Insider:(:
Anybody out there who does? What's he saying? He leads off by commenting, "The AL's best team so far appears to be going the closer-by-committee route between Shingo Takatsu, Dustin Hermanson and Damaso Marte. So, how did the White Sox get off to a 10-4 start despite a 5.08 ERA in the bullpen?"

It's not that complicated, look straight to Vizcaino in the 11th v. Cleveland. 6ER in 1 IP.

Eliminating that one inning from the bullpen stats and you have an ERA of 3.58. So the team is winning because the bullpen's been pretty good outside of that game.

So the bullpen's problem isn't so much that they've been poor, but that the season is so young that one bad outing screws up their averages.

Ol' No. 2
04-20-2005, 12:12 PM
It's not that complicated, look straight to Vizcaino in the 11th v. Cleveland. 6ER in 1 IP.

Eliminating that one inning from the bullpen stats and you have an ERA of 3.58. So the team is winning because the bullpen's been pretty good outside of that game.

So the bullpen's problem isn't so much that they've been poor, but that the season is so young that one bad outing screws up their averages.Come on, Flight. That would require, you know, effort.

itsnotrequired
04-20-2005, 12:13 PM
It's not that complicated, look straight to Vizcaino in the 11th v. Cleveland. 6ER in 1 IP.

Eliminating that one inning from the bullpen stats and you have an ERA of 3.58. So the team is winning because the bullpen's been pretty good outside of that game.

So the bullpen's problem isn't so much that they've been poor, but that the season is so young that one bad outing screws up their averages.

Exactly. Sample size is a bit small right now and these bad outings will just get absorbed as the season progresses.

Rudy Law
04-20-2005, 12:16 PM
Here you go.........not very long.......Just mentions how Ozzie isn't afriad to make the adjustments with Shingo


The Chicago White Sox are 13 games into the season and already Ozzie Guillen, their manager, has had three different relievers save games for him, including left-hander Damaso Marte, who got the last two outs (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=250419104) in the 3-1 victory over Minnesota Tuesday night.



Mod edit: Please don't post entire articles.

dcb33
04-20-2005, 12:18 PM
The White Sox are the only team with a double-digit victory total, and they've got a bullpen ERA of 5.08.

What a hack. The Dodgers have won 11 games.

elrod
04-20-2005, 12:18 PM
Without having read the Olney article I can say the real story is the starting pitching. At 2.99 we have the best starting ERA in the AL - by far. If you take out the one disaster game against Cleveland the bullpen ERA is strong too. Interestingly, top three bullpen ERAs are the teams we've played - MIN, CLE and SEA. And we're 10-4 against them! So much for bullpen uber alles.

One interesting stat on offense. We have the fewest walks, but we also have the second fewest strikeouts in the majors. Also, we have the most sacrifice flies. In other words, we're getting lots of productive outs, even if we aren't getting on base with the free pass very often.

Spicoli
04-20-2005, 12:19 PM
But I don't subscribe to ESPN Insider:(:
Anybody out there who does? What's he saying? He leads off by commenting, "The AL's best team so far appears to be going the closer-by-committee route between Shingo Takatsu, Dustin Hermanson and Damaso Marte. So, how did the White Sox get off to a 10-4 start despite a 5.08 ERA in the bullpen?"

Not that I have much faith in ESPN reporters in general, or Olney in particular. But I think Elord only quoted the intro to the piece because it requires a paid subscription. I don't subscribe either.

Thus, it has not yet been determined whether Olney goes on to explain in the same or similar manner that the responses in this thread have thus far gone on to do. Maybe he does? Elrod posted this thread to question if anybody is a subscriber to fill in the rest of the piece for those of us who are not, I think.

skottyj242
04-20-2005, 12:21 PM
He wasn't forced...we had Chris Widger warming up, he was ready to go.

elrod
04-20-2005, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the translation, Rudy. Well, that's just a stupid article, then. Sure, Shingo's a big problem but the bullpen ERA is high because of the Vizcaino 11th inning flop, not Shingo (who's only throw 3.2 innings). He's right about Ozzie's approach to the bullpen - bring in somebody else if necessary. But that isn't why we have the 5.08ERA in the pen.

spawn
04-20-2005, 12:35 PM
Thanks for the translation, Rudy. Well, that's just a stupid article, then. Sure, Shingo's a big problem but the bullpen ERA is high because of the Vizcaino 11th inning flop, not Shingo (who's only throw 3.2 innings). He's right about Ozzie's approach to the bullpen - bring in somebody else if necessary. But that isn't why we have the 5.08ERA in the pen.
Actually, you take out Shingo and Vizcaino's one outing, and you'll see the bullpen has been solid.

batmanZoSo
04-20-2005, 12:45 PM
It's not that complicated, look straight to Vizcaino in the 11th v. Cleveland. 6ER in 1 IP.

Eliminating that one inning from the bullpen stats and you have an ERA of 3.58. So the team is winning because the bullpen's been pretty good outside of that game.

So the bullpen's problem isn't so much that they've been poor, but that the season is so young that one bad outing screws up their averages.

Every night it seems the bullpen comes in for three innings with one or no runs. They're always giving us a chance to win. Not only the Vizcaino game, but Shingo consistently giving up runs in saves. He gave up three in the blown one, 2 against the Mariners, and a run each of the last two nights. Pretty much all of the 3.58 is Shingo, that speaks volumes for the middle relief, which has been outstanding. Take that and a bend but don't break closer, and that's how we've been winning.

Palehose Pete
04-20-2005, 12:48 PM
Here's the relevant portion of the Buster Olney artcle from ESPN. Enjoy.

White Sox mixing and matching closers

It's been a rough month for closers, from Mariano Rivera's problems against Boston to Trevor Hoffman's opening day loss to Mike Adams's blown save against the Dodgers Tuesday in Milwaukee. We can't be surprised, then, that the team with the best record in the American League doesn't have a one-size-fits-all closer early in the season.



The Chicago White Sox are 13 games into the season and already Ozzie Guillen, their manager, has had three different relievers save games for him, including left-hander Damaso Marte, who got the last two outs (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=250419104) in the 3-1 victory over Minnesota Tuesday night.

Shingo Takatsu, the Chicago closer at the end of last season, is off to a terrible start, having allowed four homers and eight hits in 3 2/3 innings, while somehow managing to convert four of his five save chances. As a result, Guillen has been mixing and matching, and on different days, different guys have been on the mound at the end. Dustin Hermanson, pitching very well early, has two saves; Marte's save was his first.

I didn't watch Tuesday's game, but in reviewing the play-by-play, Guillen's willingness to make adjustments is evident. After Luis Vizcaino pitched a scoreless seventh and Hermanson did the same in the ninth, and with the White Sox leading, 3-0, Guillen sent the right-handed Takatsu out to work the ninth. The Twins had switch-hitting Nick Punto due to lead off, with the right-handed hitting Shannon Stewart and Jason Bartlett scheduled to follow. Punto grounded out, but Stewart doubled. Matt LeCroy pinch-hit for Bartlett and singled, driving home Stewart. The left-handed Joe Mauer was due to hit. That was it for Takatsu; the left-handed Marte was summoned. Mauer popped out, Terry Tiffee grounded out. Ballgame, with Orlando Hernandez getting the victory (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox20.html). The White Sox are the only team with a double-digit victory total, and they've got a bullpen ERA of 5.08. Maybe that's the way it's going to be this season.

elrod
04-20-2005, 12:56 PM
You can't "take out" Shingo's bullpen numbers and end up with a meaningful bullpen ERA. You can take out the one Vizcaino game because it was after 3 innings. But Shingo is an integral component of the bullpen and if he can't close games out then the bullpen ERA reflecting it is accurate.

SoxxoS
04-20-2005, 01:08 PM
1. Buster Olney is the dillhole that said Frank won't be in the hall of fame.
2. The article, like typical Olney writing, is crap and doesn't have anything useful in the whole piece.

batmanZoSo
04-20-2005, 01:13 PM
You can't "take out" Shingo's bullpen numbers and end up with a meaningful bullpen ERA. You can take out the one Vizcaino game because it was after 3 innings. But Shingo is an integral component of the bullpen and if he can't close games out then the bullpen ERA reflecting it is accurate.

Well we can hope and assume Shingo's not gonna get scored upon every night out.

maurice
04-20-2005, 01:40 PM
The aptly-named "Buster" Olney strikes again.

If the question is "how did they win 10 games," the answer would require you to look at those 10 games . . . not garbage-time performance in big-margin losses. In the 10 wins, the Sox bullpen recorded a MLB-leading 7 saves. In fact, the pen is 7-for-8 in save opportunities, 2nd in the league to a twinkie team that has had only 4 save opportunities. Thus far, no other AL pen is better than 67%.

elrod
04-20-2005, 03:42 PM
Repeat after me. The White Sox are in first place because their starting ERA is 2.99, best in the American League. Period.

SoxFan48
04-20-2005, 03:59 PM
I know a lot of you guys are convinced the world is against you, but this is a poor example.

The article praised Ozzie's ability to make adjustments in the bullpen to compensate for Shingo's poor start using Tuesday's game as an example.

Repeat one hundred times....not everyone hates me and hates my White Sox.

MRKARNO
04-20-2005, 04:42 PM
Just curious, how many of the people that are bashing this article and Buster Olney right now have actually read it? I can't comment on it because I haven't and I dont think it's fair to bash him if you havent read his column. You can bash his previous statements (like ranking the White Sox 22 in his preseason poll), but I just dont think we know enough to get angry.

SoxxoS
04-20-2005, 06:42 PM
Just curious, how many of the people that are bashing this article and Buster Olney right now have actually read it? I can't comment on it because I haven't and I dont think it's fair to bash him if you havent read his column. You can bash his previous statements (like ranking the White Sox 22 in his preseason poll), but I just dont think we know enough to get angry.

Im and ESPN insider, I read it, and it sucks.

DumpJerry
04-20-2005, 07:13 PM
So, what is the bullpen's ERA in our victories? Those are the games where it happens. Our middle guys have been great, Hermanson is still 0.00, just like Flounder's GPA.

I don't give a rat's tushy what the national media says about us. We're winning and that is all that matters. They can poo poo all they want about our perceived weaknesses, but one thing is coming through this young season: our pitching will keep us in each game, but we will win ugly each day. Like 1983, one day it is pitching only that wins it, one day it is long ball, another day it is smallball. Unlike some teams, you never know what the Sox will come at you with to beat you (in addition to a starter who will probably go 6-7 innings). The media hates it when we win ugly, they can't use boilerplate stories to describe how we win where they just plug in the right names of the players and opponent.

guillen4life13
04-20-2005, 11:10 PM
Remember the Schoenweis bubble last year?

The Sox were in the top 3 in ERA near the beginning of the season, IIRC, and that quickly tailed off as Schoenweis--the man responsible for that awesome ERA--tailed off.

You guys all mention a low sample size for the bullpen ERA. That's all fine and dandy, but I wouldn't rely on the starting rotation sustaining a 2.99 ERA through the course of the season. If they manage to do that, that would be the best rotation in the majors in decades--literally.

Rocklive99
04-21-2005, 11:46 AM
Buster calling Buehrle/Bonderman the pitching matchup of the day

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=2042607