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View Full Version : Shingo's troubles= familiarity?


PatK
04-20-2005, 11:02 AM
Other than the obvious difficulties pitching to lefties, in my opinion, the main reason he's had problems is that the teams in the division are getting familiar with him.

Since he's a pitcher who's game is based on deception, the more you see of him, the better off you'll be against him. Especially if he has the same tendencies of pitching in certain counts.

When the Sox start playing teams outside the division, I've got a feeling that we'll be seeing the Shingo we enjoy, not the one who's been giving me an ulcer lately.

Opinions?

elrod
04-20-2005, 11:05 AM
I don't think the problem is predictability so much as loss of velocity and poor location of his fastball. His fastball has to top out out at around 88-89 mph in order to set up his multiple change-ups. Also, he needs to hit the corners, not down the middle. The LeCroy at bat was a great example. He would have struck LeCroy out if his fastball was faster than 84mph. Instead he ended up hanging a slider for a single. Deception - or lack thereof - is not the problem. He's just not in a groove yet.

Ol' No. 2
04-20-2005, 11:10 AM
I don't think the problem is predictability so much as loss of velocity and poor location of his fastball. His fastball has to top out out at around 88-89 mph in order to set up his multiple change-ups. Also, he needs to hit the corners, not down the middle. The LeCroy at bat was a great example. He would have struck LeCroy out if his fastball was faster than 84mph. Instead he ended up hanging a slider for a single. Deception - or lack thereof - is not the problem. He's just not in a groove yet.I've seen him hitting 90 mph quite a few times, so I don't think it's lack of velocity. It's location. He's missing early in the count and getting behind hitters and that's not good for any pitcher, but for him it's deadly. He never was that good at getting lefties out, but last year at least he wasn't getting them hit out of the park. But this is EXACTLY the way he pitched in spring training last year. He's an experienced pitcher and has had plenty of ups and downs in his career. He knows what he needs to do. Now he just has to do it.

SoxFan78
04-20-2005, 11:11 AM
They mentioned this last night but I think Shingo's problem is that when he gets behind in the count, thats when he gets predictible. Shingo retired the first batter, why? Because he got ahead in the count.

Correct me if im wrong, but to Stewart and LeCroy, Shingo fell behind in the count and had to pitch down the middle.

Shingo is struggling right now, but I think that if he gets some innings under his belt in middle relief/closing that he will regain his confidence.

Great move by Ozzie to get Shingo out of there.

Chez
04-20-2005, 11:21 AM
In fairness to Shingo, the ball LeCroy hit wasn't exactly smoked. I think familiarity is a big part of it -- hitters are being more patient against him this year. The bright side is that over the last week, Vizcaino, Marte, Politte and Hermanson have all looked great.

PatK
04-20-2005, 11:21 AM
I still have faith in the guy.

It seems like the only teams that hit him are teams in the division. Ones we don't see too much of seem clueless against him.

I think he's also tipping his pitches from what Farmio said last night. He said every time that Shingo steps off and shakes off the pitch, he's getting a fastball called and he wants to throw the curve.

Sure enough, Shingo hung the one from Lecroy right after that happened.

daveeym
04-20-2005, 11:24 AM
Yeah it's cuz he's pitching like crap. No control and as everones said it leads to him predictably putting it down the middle. His offspeed pitches start outside and are 2 feet off the plate at the end instead of starting middle away and dropping 3-9 inches off the plate. Familiarity my ass, he's just way off on his spots.

elrod
04-20-2005, 11:29 AM
LeCroy didn't pound the ball, but he should have struck out on the prior pitch. Instead, he barely fouled it off.

I don't know if Shingo is tipping his pitches but it's obvious that he's missing his spots. I'm also not sold on the "behind the count" thing either, at least as a reason for why he can't catch back up. He got ahead of Punto 0-1, and then fell behind 2-1 before getting him out. He was ahead of LeCroy but couldn't put him away.

skottyj242
04-20-2005, 11:29 AM
On the topic of familiarity, we haven't played anyone outside of our division yet with the exception of Seattle and he didn't look too good Friday against them. Maybe he just doesn't have it at this time...I'm still scratching my head as to why Dustin didn't come out and pitch the ninth.

Hangar18
04-20-2005, 11:41 AM
I like the job Ozz is doing , concerning Shingo. Hes trying to get him his confidence, but not letting him stay in to hurt us.

HAR-OLD
04-20-2005, 11:50 AM
i think its cause basically the only pitch he can throw for striles right now is his 84-89 mph fastball

when he was on last year, almost all year, he was throwing the "frisbee" for strikes when he wanted to, on the outside corner at the knees

its almost exactly like when foulke was missing with his changeup, they sit on the fastball and crush it

i also think that like foulke, its temporary, and he will get it back, hopefully sooner rather than later, and be as good as last year

batmanZoSo
04-20-2005, 11:50 AM
Location, location, location.

daveeym
04-20-2005, 11:51 AM
I like the job Ozz is doing , concerning Shingo. Hes trying to get him his confidence, but not letting him stay in to hurt us. Yeah, and as much as shingo was our "closer" last year it was still closer by committee last year as well. It's just such a non issue other than he's not pitching well right now.

WhiteSoxFan84
04-20-2005, 11:58 AM
Hawk or DJ or whomever said it perfectly; batters aren't being fooled by his off speed stuff that winds up out of the zone. He needs to start intimidating batters by throwing inside and heck, plunk a few when you have a 3 run lead. This way he will have more players slowly stepping further off the plate and that's when he can throw that frizzbee for a strike or even out of the zone away from the hitters forcing them to throw the bat at the ball and swing and miss.

The way things are going I don't see him being a 9th inning guy anymore. What sucks is that he wouldn't fit anywhere else the way he's pitching. If anything, he can be the right handed version of Kelly Wunsch when we had him.

But if it is just a phase, I'd love to see him get out of it.

Ol No. 2 said that he's seen Shingo hit 90 MPH quite a few times, are you serious? Fastest pitch I've seen him throw was 86-87 MPH.

Ol' No. 2
04-20-2005, 12:00 PM
Hawk or DJ or whomever said it perfectly; batters aren't being fooled by his off speed stuff that winds up out of the zone. He needs to start intimidating batters by throwing inside and heck, plunk a few when you have a 3 run lead. This way he will have more players slowly stepping further off the plate and that's when he can throw that frizzbee for a strike or even out of the zone away from the hitters forcing them to throw the bat at the ball and swing and miss.

The way things are going I don't see him being a 9th inning guy anymore. What sucks is that he wouldn't fit anywhere else the way he's pitching. If anything, he can be the right handed version of Kelly Wunsch when we had him.

But if it is just a phase, I'd love to see him get out of it.

Ol No. 2 said that he's seen Shingo hit 90 MPH quite a few times, are you serious? Fastest pitch I've seen him throw was 86-87 MPH.Opening day. At least that's what the scoreboard indicator said.

MRKARNO
04-20-2005, 12:04 PM
Location, location, location.

Bingo. When he gets ahead 0-2, he's very difficult to hit. When he goes down 2-0, it's very difficult for him to come back. First pitch strikes with the fastball on the corner are crucial for his success.

batmanZoSo
04-20-2005, 12:05 PM
Hawk or DJ or whomever said it perfectly; batters aren't being fooled by his off speed stuff that winds up out of the zone. He needs to start intimidating batters by throwing inside and heck, plunk a few when you have a 3 run lead. This way he will have more players slowly stepping further off the plate and that's when he can throw that frizzbee for a strike or even out of the zone away from the hitters forcing them to throw the bat at the ball and swing and miss.

The way things are going I don't see him being a 9th inning guy anymore. What sucks is that he wouldn't fit anywhere else the way he's pitching. If anything, he can be the right handed version of Kelly Wunsch when we had him.

But if it is just a phase, I'd love to see him get out of it.

Ol No. 2 said that he's seen Shingo hit 90 MPH quite a few times, are you serious? Fastest pitch I've seen him throw was 86-87 MPH.

Despite a 12.27 ERA, he's 4/5 in saves (I think Foulke and Rivera each have two blown games) and he has yet to get a loss or give the other team the lead. If this is his worst, I'll be very happy.

JB98
04-20-2005, 12:13 PM
He left a breaking ball up to Stewart. That pitch is easier to recognize and easier to hit when it's up.

I really hope Shingo figures it out, because I'm sick of these threads about "the league catching up" to him. I agree with those who have said that Shingo's location is off. Right now, he is going through a stretch where his command is very poor. Unless you throw 95 mph, that's poison for any pitcher.

ChiSoxBobette
04-20-2005, 12:19 PM
Other than the obvious difficulties pitching to lefties, in my opinion, the main reason he's had problems is that the teams in the division are getting familiar with him.

Since he's a pitcher who's game is based on deception, the more you see of him, the better off you'll be against him. Especially if he has the same tendencies of pitching in certain counts.

When the Sox start playing teams outside the division, I've got a feeling that we'll be seeing the Shingo we enjoy, not the one who's been giving me an ulcer lately.

Opinions?
I think we went through the same thing with Shingo last year at this time and as the season went on he got better.

PatK
04-20-2005, 01:47 PM
He left a breaking ball up to Stewart. That pitch is easier to recognize and easier to hit when it's up.

I really hope Shingo figures it out, because I'm sick of these threads about "the league catching up" to him. I agree with those who have said that Shingo's location is off. Right now, he is going through a stretch where his command is very poor. Unless you throw 95 mph, that's poison for any pitcher.

I didn't mean familiarity as much as "catching up" as much as it seems he has a pretty predictable pattern of pitching.

ATXBMX
04-20-2005, 03:45 PM
Before he was the closer last year, Shingo didn't do very well. I think he needs more time to get his stuff together, but I am confident he will figure it out eventually, like last year. He might also be having trouble adjusting to Pierzynski. AJ might be calling for too many fastballs, and that could be because he's having trouble with his offspeed stuff against lefties. He knows how to pitch, as his 13 seasons in Japan would indicate. I say get him some work in the middle innings for now and get Hermanson some saves. Once Shingo finds his rhythm, move him back to the 9th.

MINFAN1
04-20-2005, 04:42 PM
Maybe Shingo will get his stuff together in time. He does not look like a vision of confidence when he appears on the scene. After it takes two, or three pitchers to get to where we are in the ninth inning. Seeing Shingo standing on the mound to start the inning makes me want to chug a six-pack.