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sox230
04-20-2005, 02:03 AM
Paul Sullivan wrote an article directly retaliating to Guillen's comments about Buerhle not getting any publicity even though he is better than Wood and Prior. The whole point of Sullivan's article was to prove that Guillen was wrong about Buerhle being much better than them, but he and the Cubune very well know Guillen's real point that Buerhle does not get enough publicity, and since the article compared that the three pitchers are very comparible, then he should get the same media attention as Prior and Wood, which definetly isn't the case.

sox230
04-20-2005, 02:08 AM
linky http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cs-050419cubssoxbuehrlewoodprior,1,4785793.story?coll =cs-home-headlines

batmanZoSo
04-20-2005, 02:15 AM
Buehrle's way better than "Woods," aka the man who became a Hall of Famer based on one 20 strikeout game 7 years ago. I don't care about potential, all that matters are results. Talk to me when Wood wins more games than a still-developing Jon Garland. Please...

Navaro's Talent
04-20-2005, 02:17 AM
He spends way too much time focusing on strikeouts. I can care less if Mark strikes out the hitters or not as long as he gets them out. I think Mark would feel the same way. Seriously, Kerry Wood may know how to strike guys out, but that's pretty much all he knows. He can't get guys to hit ground balls. I think a much more important stat would be to see how many double plays the pitchers have helped setup. I have a good feeling Wood wouldn't be close to either of the Marks.

popilius
04-20-2005, 02:25 AM
The concept of even writing an article in your newspaper defending the 2 ptichers you own, while claiming that Guillen is wrong is not only paradoxical but highly proposterous. It insults the intelligence of Tribune worshippers (which I admittedly presume is low). It's more sad than anything. I guess our society really has hit rock-bottom.

:(:

chisoxfanatic
04-20-2005, 02:38 AM
Talk to me when "Messiah" Prior actually pitches a complete system. His arm is WEAK!

Buehrle's a much more complete pitcher than the other two.

SoxxoS
04-20-2005, 02:39 AM
Paul Sullivan is a pompus ass.

VivaOzzie
04-20-2005, 02:46 AM
Buehrle's way better than "Woods," aka the man who became a Hall of Famer based on one 20 strikeout game 7 years ago. I don't care about potential, all that matters are results. Talk to me when Wood wins more games than a still-developing Jon Garland. Please...

Wow, was it really 7 years ago?? I didnt even realize that. While I already didnt have much respect for Kerry Wood and his 'legacy,' seeing that he hasnt done anything since that game (besides getting injured a lot) I have even less respect.

On another note, I dont think Buehrle minds too much that he doesnt get all the attention that those two do. He is more humble and isnt the primadonna that Wood and Prior are. It just drives him to pitch even better, and just sit back and grin when he knows he is better. :cool:

batmanZoSo
04-20-2005, 02:59 AM
Wow, was it really 7 years ago?? I didnt even realize that. While I already didnt have much respect for Kerry Wood and his 'legacy,' seeing that he hasnt done anything since that game (besides getting injured a lot) I have even less respect.

On another note, I dont think Buehrle minds too much that he doesnt get all the attention that those two do. He is more humble and isnt the primadonna that Wood and Prior are. It just drives him to pitch even better, and just sit back and grin when he knows he is better. :cool:

I forgot to mention "Woods" is a whiny crybaby who can't handle criticism to boot.

halfpricemonday
04-20-2005, 02:59 AM
I'll let someone else respond to the Buehrle-Prior comparison, but I thought I'd give my two cents on the Buehrle-Wood one…

Going into Tuesday's games, both Buehrle and Wood had pitched in 167 major-league games. Wood came up in 1998, two years earlier than Buehrle, but injuries have limited him to 1,0611/3 innings, 50 more than Buehrle.

While Buehrle has four more career victories than Wood's 67 and a higher winning percentage (.607 to .568), Wood has a slightly lower earned-run average (3.68 to 3.72) and 628 more strikeouts. Buehrle, of course, is more of a finesse pitcher and has issued 276 fewer walks than Wood (245 to 521).

So, after being in the majors for two extra years, Wood has four less victories than Mark? And we're supposed to just ignore the fact that Wood has been limited by injuries in several years since his rookie campaign? Since when does a pitcher get a pass on being injury-prone?

And you mean to tell me that Wood, who has the advantage of pitching against an easy out almost every time you get to the 9 spot (which of course weakens the hitting prospects of the guy before him), has an lower ERA by only 0.04? Even with over 600 more strikeouts than Mark?

Are we supposed to forget that Mark and Wood pitch in completely different leagues (both literally and figuratively)?

VivaOzzie
04-20-2005, 03:08 AM
I'll let someone else respond to the Buehrle-Prior comparison, but I thought I'd give my two cents on the Buehrle-Wood one…



So, after being in the majors for two extra years, Wood has four less victories than Mark? And we're supposed to just ignore the fact that Wood has been limited by injuries in several years since his rookie campaign? Since when does a pitcher get a pass on being injury-prone?

And you mean to tell me that Wood, who has the advantage of pitching against an easy out almost every time you get to the 9 spot (which of course weakens the hitting prospects of the guy before him), has an lower ERA by only 0.04? Even with over 600 more strikeouts than Mark?

Are we supposed to forget that Mark and Wood pitch in completely different leagues (both literally and figuratively)?

Top notch! I cant wait to bring this info up to all my sCrUB fan buddies! And I cant wait to hear the bs they shoot back with.

TDog
04-20-2005, 03:26 AM
I don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but I came across something on the ESPN baseball Web page tonight that assigns "scores" to starting pitchers' games. Tonight, Hernandez had a score of 54 and Radke a score of 53.

I'm not a stathead, but I clicked on one of the pitchers' scores listed at the bottom of the Sox-game box score, and took me to the pitchers' page, where it explained how the scores are (not arbitrarily) figured and showed that both Contreras and Lohse had scores of 40 Monday night. So did Kerry Wood. You might think those scores generous, but they give you 50 points before the first pitch. Jaret Wright and David Bush had scores of 15 Monday.

For the season, by this accounting, Mark Buehrle had the best score of any American Leaguer with his most recent win. The second best game by any American Leaguer was Mark Buehrle's opening day effort.

The site also has top strikeout games. Mark Buehrle topped the American League list there, too. He would have been tied for second in the majors for K's in a game, behind John Smoltz' 15-K loss. Buehrle's not even a strikeout pitcher.

This just in: Mark Buehrle is a pretty good pitcher.

JUribe1989
04-20-2005, 07:46 AM
Wow, I used to like Paul Sullivan.

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-20-2005, 07:57 AM
This is atypical of the Trib - I KNOW it's early, but whether the Sox stand fast or fold, Mark's gonna win 15+ again - there's no guarantee on the North Side that either of those two will win will contribute to win 16, COMBINED. That fact is, it was a matter of time before a self defense article came out - now that it has, we read it, laugh it off, and focus on Detroit.

By the way, didn't Paul Sullivan BBQ the Sox for Maggs? And what lineup spot is Maggs hitting in this weekend? Oh, that's right, a HERNIA....

spawn
04-20-2005, 08:27 AM
This is atypical of the Trib - I KNOW it's early, but whether the Sox stand fast or fold, Mark's gonna win 15+ again - there's no guarantee on the North Side that either of those two will win will contribute to win 16, COMBINED. That fact is, it was a matter of time before a self defense article came out - now that it has, we read it, laugh it off, and focus on Detroit.

By the way, didn't Paul Sullivan BBQ the Sox for Maggs? And what lineup spot is Maggs hitting in this weekend? Oh, that's right, a HERNIA....

:tealpolice:

faneidde
04-20-2005, 08:50 AM
I wonder of the phrase just win baby means anything to this clown.

Kadafi311
04-20-2005, 08:53 AM
Paul Sullivan wrote an article directly retaliating to Guillen's comments about Buerhle not getting any publicity even though he is better than Wood and Prior.

Well, he's getting publicity now :smile: As long as people are talking about Buehrle, it's a good thing. And drawing comparisons to the ass hats up North is better than no story at all.

Mission accomplished, Ozzarue.

irish rover
04-20-2005, 09:10 AM
I don't read the cubune, but do they have a section sorta a letter to the editor but for the sports section, or just letter to the editor.

I feel the need to write a letter about this

Corlose 15
04-20-2005, 09:15 AM
The fact that this article was even written totally erodes any credibility that Paul Sullivan or the Tribune had. Yeah, there's no media bias.

Hangar18
04-20-2005, 09:19 AM
For the season, by this accounting, Mark Buehrle had the best score of any American Leaguer with his most recent win. The second best game by any American Leaguer was Mark Buehrle's opening day effort.

The site also has top strikeout games. Mark Buehrle topped the American League list there, too. He would have been tied for second in the majors for K's in a game, behind John Smoltz' 15-K loss. Buehrle's not even a strikeout pitcher.

This just in: Mark Buehrle is a pretty good pitcher.


Hey, but SOX fans knew this all along the last few years. As for the Chicago Media? Too busy writing how great Kerry Wood. And where The Messiahs next rehab start is going to be. And how The Messiahs appearance in small minor-league towns improves the economy in those towns. Also too busy putting out directions and phone numbers to these
minor-league towns.

MRKARNO
04-20-2005, 10:00 AM
Buehrle is better than Wood. He has half as many K's as well as half as many walks and it so happens that Buehrle's K/BB is better.

Buehrle has had nearly 3 less years in his career and yet he has a similar amount of innings.

Buehrle's ERA is almost the same as Wood's despite him playing in the AL while Wood has played in the NL.

Prior? He's had one good year and it's unfair to compare a pitcher with two full seasons to one who's had 4.25 solid ones.

jackbrohamer
04-20-2005, 10:00 AM
Paul Sullivan's a pro-Cubs hack. When he was the Sox' beat writer he obsessively wrote about low attendance and groused about the team even when they were doing well, now he's a full-time shill for the Cubs. But hey, look who pays him. :angry:

Hangar18
04-20-2005, 10:02 AM
So the Cubune is stooping to semantics here. They know what Guillens
real point was. That if Buehrle were a Cub, he'd be the spokesperson
in numerous commercials already, he'd be a Cy Young winner, and the Media
here would never stop touting the guy, much like they do now with
Kerry Wood, and The Messiah. The Chicago Media and the Cubune
in particular, do NOT LIKE BEING called out on the carpet for their obvious
cross-the-line, conflict-of-interest cub-lust they have. Just another
reason why I hate the Chicago Media.

Bobby Thigpen
04-20-2005, 10:06 AM
I will be the first to admit that I was all over Buerhle a couple of seasons ago over the whole Cardinals BS, (which the more I think about it was just probably the Trib trying to stir up crap) but he is easily now my favorite pitcher in all of major league baseball to watch. He works so fast, and can basically get hitters to do whatever he wants them to do. I was lucky enough to watch last Sat's game and it was the best game I've ever seen a pitcher pitch in person. And that includes Buerhle's one hitter a couple of years ago against the D-Rays. He's easily the best pitcher in Chicago, if not the best in the AL, right now.

And we all know he's been the best in Chicago for at least two years.
But we all know that he's not an "ace", and his great start is probably just an "illusion".

shoota
04-20-2005, 10:08 AM
I don't read the cubune, but do they have a section sorta a letter to the editor but for the sports section, or just letter to the editor.

I feel the need to write a letter about this

If you do, make sure you write about the points halfpricemonday made in post #10. And mention the injury/reliability factor of Buehrle vs. BOTH Prior and Wood. Buehrle doesn't need to be coddled like the other two. Is there no value to being able to depend on your team's Ace year after year, start after start? And not only does Buehrle not miss halves of seasons due to injury like Wood and Prior, he has the longest running streak of pitching 6 innings or more at 31, IIRC. WSI had a thread about that in the past week.

As I glanced at the article, I thought Paul Sullivan would surely mention the league differences since a journalist--well, a credible journalist--cannot compare ERAs and strikeouts between pitchers of the AL and the NL. But of course there was no mention/explanation of this.

What a biased, inaccurate, intentionally skewed article.

dickallen15
04-20-2005, 10:09 AM
The bias is very apparent in this morning's Cubune. The headline reads sweep, but the little blurb says Takatsu gives up another run. On the Cubs it just speaks of their route of the might Cincinatti Reds, there is no little blurb on how the great Nomar was 0 for 5 dropping his average to an anemic .163, struggling just as much, if not more, than Shingo and getting paid 4 times as much. It will never change.

Flight #24
04-20-2005, 10:13 AM
Buehrle is better than Wood. He has half as many K's as well as half as many walks and it so happens that Buehrle's K/BB is better.

Buehrle has had nearly 3 less years in his career and yet he has a similar amount of innings.

Buehrle's ERA is almost the same as Wood's despite him playing in the AL while Wood has played in the NL.

Prior? He's had one good year and it's unfair to compare a pitcher with two full seasons to one who's had 4.25 solid ones.

Let's not forget another thing the Cubine conveniently "overlooks". Buehrle came up as a reliever, Wood has always been a starter. So when Sullivan tries to show they're similar in terms both having pitched in "167 games", but Wood has 50 more IP, that's skewed because Mark appeared in a number of short stints in his first year (23 to be exact). Wood has NEVER appeared as a reliever. So in 23 fewer starts, Buehrle has pitched about 50-70 fewer innings with a better K/BB, a better WHIP, and roughly the same ERA while facing the DH (and not being able to pitch around the #8 hitter).

shoota
04-20-2005, 10:14 AM
The bias is very apparent in this morning's Cubune. The headline reads sweep, but the little blurb says Takatsu gives up another run. On the Cubs it just speaks of their route of the might Cincinatti Reds, there is no little blurb on how the great Nomar was 0 for 5 dropping his average to an anemic .163, struggling just as much, if not more, than Shingo and getting paid 4 times as much. It will never change.

At least he doesn't take his season-long offensive failures with him to the field: "The Reds scored an unearned run in the fourth on a throwing error by Nomar Garciaparra." -p5 of today's Trib. :bandance:

Sure we never replaced the major home run and RBI numbers after the departures of Alou and Sosa, and we still don't have a closer, but we'll win the division because we have NOMAR for an entire season!! Laaaa!

hdog1017
04-20-2005, 10:16 AM
Hey, don't knock Carrie Wood. He's got the best ERA in simulated games over the past couple seasons.

shoota
04-20-2005, 10:19 AM
Let's not forget another thing the Cubine conveniently "overlooks". Buehrle came up as a reliever, Wood has always been a starter. So when Sullivan tries to show they're similar in terms both having pitched in "167 games", but Wood has 50 more IP, that's skewed because Mark appeared in a number of short stints in his first year (23 to be exact). Wood has NEVER appeared as a reliever. So in 23 fewer starts, Buehrle has pitched about 50-70 fewer innings with a better K/BB, a better WHIP, and roughly the same ERA while facing the DH (and not being able to pitch around the #8 hitter).

Great points. You're right.

soxtalker
04-20-2005, 10:21 AM
I've read the article a couple of times, and I find it hard to get worked up about this. I think that Ozzie is wrong when he says that MB is MUCH better than Woods and Prior, but, then again, it's Ozzie, and he has every reason to exagerate. Sullivan needs to write articles, and Ozzie gave him an opportunity (which is one reason that Sullivan and the other writers probably love having Ozzie around). Sullivan went out of his way to praise all three pitchers.

Would MB get more recognition on the Cubs? Sure. He'd also get more recognition if we'd managed to be in the play-offs the last few years. If the Sox continue to play well and Buerhle leads the staff, while the Cubs struggle, MB will get much more recognition this year than either Woods or Prior. Hey, if Garland's last game turns into a pattern, he'll get more recognition.

SoxFan78
04-20-2005, 10:28 AM
Would MB get more recognition on the Cubs? Sure. He'd also get more recognition if we'd managed to be in the play-offs the last few years. If the Sox continue to play well and Buerhle leads the staff, while the Cubs struggle, MB will get much more recognition this year than either Woods or Prior. Hey, if Garland's last game turns into a pattern, he'll get more recognition.

Care to make a bet on this fact? It would take a perfect game in game seven of the world series for Buerhle to get more press then the dynamic duo on the north side.

I can just imagine the headlines if MB won the Cy Young award.

Best 1-2 punch in MLB! Mark Prior and Kerry Wood combine for 21 Wins for 2005 Season!

Cy Young award given out to some pitcher on the Chicago White Stockings.

voodoochile
04-20-2005, 10:28 AM
Stupid Buehrle never having the sense to spend long parts of the season on the DL so he can get his own watch article in the Trib...:rolleyes:

shoota
04-20-2005, 10:32 AM
Hey, don't knock Carrie Wood. He's got the best ERA in simulated games over the past couple seasons.

Remember that Dusty Baker comment he regurgitated all spring? Something like, "Spring training innings are overrated. Carrie doesn't need to pitch much because he's a veteran and he will just flip a switch and turn it on when the season starts." Another Baker idiotic theory is proven false. Though, you wouldn't know it if you didn't watch the games Carrie pitched, but read his postgame self analysis: "I think this is the best I have ever pitched."

Hey dumb loser, ever hear of the "fool me once..." saying? Guess you nor crybaby Barrett have: "Dunn hit two home runs, both on 2-0 pitches from Wood. "With a four-run lead, I figured I'm not going to walk him," explained Wood. "I threw him a fastball and he hit the first one. The second time, same thing. It was just a stupid pitch." I guess Barrett was too busy worrying about throwing to the wrong base to think better about calling a game.

Barett has to be one of the worst game callers in all of baseball. Anyone remember last year's stat of Prior's ERA when pitching to Barrett v pitching to Bako? With Bako calling Prior's game it was something like .85 ERA; ~4.55 with Barrett calling the game. That's too much of a gap to be a statistical anomaly.

mdep524
04-20-2005, 10:39 AM
What a ridiculous, stupid article by one of Chicago's worst journalists. Besides completely ignoring the subtleties to the stats, which have all been pointed out in this thread, Sullivan misses the ENTIRE POINT of Ozzie's comments!

Ozzie's whole point was that Buehrle's on-the-field success to media attention ratio is lightyears behind Carrie Woods' and Prior's. That cannot be debated, and stats only further prove that!

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-20-2005, 10:46 AM
Hey, don't knock Carrie Wood. He's got the best ERA in simulated games over the past couple seasons.

I LOVE THIS. Carrie Wood...just made me laugh outloud at the office...now everyone's peeking into my office!

faneidde
04-20-2005, 11:03 AM
The first time Mark Buerhle goes on the DL with a precautionary (Mark Prior), then I will say that Prior is comparable to him, but he's not. Wood and Prior both have huge injury question marks. And Wood's career path is going in the opposite direction of Mark. This looks like it might be a career year for Mark while it might be the opposite for Carrie. The best pitcher on the Cubs, imo, is that fat, hothead Zambrano.

irish rover
04-20-2005, 11:22 AM
another piece of crap form sulli from his piece on Balsa exploding

" According to research by Cubs historian and pope watcher Ed Hartig, the Cubs and the Roman Catholic Church remain tied with two John Pauls on their respective rosters. The Cubs had John Paul "Johnny" Peters, who played from 1876 to '77, and John Paul "Jay" Loviglio, who played in 1983. The Roman Catholic Church had Pope John Paul I (1978) and Pope John Paul II (1978-2005). The Cubs also employed in 1994 pitcher Donn Pall, who was sometimes called "the Pope." Hartig noted the Cubs never have had a player whose first name was Benedict, like newly elected Pope Benedict XVI."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-0504200303apr20,1,3581486.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

doesn't mention Donn ever played for the sox or where he got the nickname

maurice
04-20-2005, 01:33 PM
This really isn't very complicated. There's no question that Buehrle had done more than Wood and Prior. It's not even close.

Buehrle has had several good years in a row, which knocks Prior completely out of the box, since The Messiah has had one very good year followed by a crappy year. Prior may prove to be a better pitcher in the long run (only if he can stay healthy), but Buehrle certainly has done more at this point in time. It's not even close.

A review of the basic statistics shows that Buehrle also has done more than Wood in a shorter period of time. In fewer starts, he has won more games. When you account for well-known differences between the leagues, Buehrle's ERA is much, much better than Wood's. As mentioned, his K/BB also is better. Nobody in their right mind could look at the relevant information and honestly conclude that Wood has done more or the same as Buehrle. It's not even close.

Brian26
04-20-2005, 01:38 PM
Let's not forget another thing the Cubine conveniently "overlooks". Buehrle came up as a reliever, Wood has always been a starter.

Yep, that was my first reaction too. Buehrle didn't really become a starter until early 2001. Wood had a head start of over 3 full seasons on Beuhrle, and Buehrle still has more wins.

Flight #24
04-20-2005, 01:39 PM
By the way - anyone else beginning to get a bit of a feeling of desperation from the Cubune lately? Seems like they're overreaching to try and put the Chubs in a good light relative to the Sox. I wonder if the shift away from "lovable losers" to "big-$$$ disappointments" is beginning to cnern them, especially when combined with a Sox team that based on the past 1-2 years is gaining in popularity (as we were prior to the injuries in '04 and as we seem to be doing now).

Combined with the "outing" of their bias from Hangar and moving onto local blab radio, could we be seeing a sea change in attitudes towards the 2 teams? If the Sox continue to succeed this year and the Cubs meander along at .500 but are no longer loveable, whatever will they do?

Brian26
04-20-2005, 01:42 PM
If the Sox continue to succeed this year and the Cubs meander along at .500 but are no longer loveable, whatever will they do?

When does the Chicago WNBA franchise start?

F the Tribune.

Lip Man 1
04-20-2005, 01:58 PM
I was a little surprised by the tone of the article and have to agree...it sounded like something 'contrived,' to defend Wood and Prior.

I think some of the points brought up i.e. Mark started as a relief guy and only got his chance because the Sox were out of healthy arms in spring training 2001 is a very good one as is some of the statistical points. Mark's 'reliability' swings the advantage over to him as well as his consistency and attitude.

No question there has been a lot of publicity pushing Wood and Prior because they do have talent, and are handsome kids pitching for a popular club but as of yet that potential hasn't translated into reality or numerous wins. That's a fact as of right now... what the future holds, no one knows.

Regarding Sully himself, here is the link to his WSI Interview, I do not think he's a Cub fan and remember he requested going back to the Cubs because he was sick to death of having to try to deal with that abrasive idiot, Terry Bevington. (As was many of his breathern and certainly Sox fans!)

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=704

Here is his e-mail address where you can offer your comments to him...but one word of advice, you'll get farther making your comments is a respectful, professional manner as opposed to insults, four letter words and such:

Sullysox@aol.com

Lip

Randar68
04-20-2005, 02:05 PM
I think some of the points brought up i.e. Mark started as a relief guy and only got his chance because the Sox were out of healthy arms in spring training 2001 is a very good one as is some of the statistical points. Mark's 'reliability' swings the advantage over to him as well as his consistency and attitude.


LOL. A good point about Buehrle becoming a starter only because they ran out of arms?

Buehrle was one of the best pitchers in the minor leagues the year they brought him up late in the season... AS A STARTER. You think Jim Parque or Bionic Eldred was going to keep him out of the opening day rotation the next year, even if they were healthy? *****!

Go defend your buddy Kenny Rosenthal for being an equally ignorant boob.

Randar68
04-20-2005, 02:10 PM
No question there has been a lot of publicity pushing Wood and Prior because they do have talent, and are handsome kids pitching for a popular club but as of yet that potential hasn't translated into reality or numerous wins. That's a fact as of right now... what the future holds, no one knows.


BTW, if Prior can stay healthy, I think he's a more dominant pitcher than Buehrle, but Kerry Wood, he of the 130 pitch 6 inning outings is nothing compared to either (or Zambrano for that matter).

He will never be healthy because of his mechanics. His back will always give him problems and his elbow/shoulder is a ticking time bomb after he refused to change his mechanics after blowing his elbow the first time. Not only that, but he's a hyper-sensitive baby.

Can you stop kissing fellow media members' behinds long enough to take a look at the entire picture?

You're the biggest media apologist I've ever seen. Sully is a scribe for the "unbiased" Chinese-run media in Tribune tower. Call a spade a spade instead of looking like an even bigger fool than before, Lip.

Lip Man 1
04-20-2005, 02:17 PM
Randar:

I'll respond to this simply because the facts show otherwise and I'll do it without the personal insults that you are so famous for..

Manager Gandhi himself said in spring training 2001 that if it weren't for the numerous injuries, Buehrle would have stayed in the bullpen. Those remarks were published.

Specifically Mark got a spring training start when they were shorthanded due to the injuries and surgeries. He did well...and they gave him another chance...and he did well again. The rest is history. He was a 37th round draft choice...normally those type of picks don't get that kind of chance.

I've used this example many times in showing the stupidity of the former Sox manager and his staff. It took injuries to give this kid a chance...the 'brain-trust,' of the White Sox was so 'brain-dead,' they couldn't even see his potential and were not apparently going to utilize it.

Lip

Randar68
04-20-2005, 02:38 PM
Specifically Mark got a spring training start when they were shorthanded due to the injuries and surgeries. He did well...and they gave him another chance...and he did well again. The rest is history. He was a 37th round draft choice...normally those type of picks don't get that kind of chance.


*****, Lip. Last I checked, when a guy performs in the minor leagues, nobody gives a rat's ass where they were drafted. Do you think a club would not start a pitcher at the MLB level because he was a 37th round draft choice?

BTW, Lip. Draft and Follow candidates are often drafted late and signed just before the next draft, as Mark was. It's nothing new and really means nothing other than the fact that every other team passed on him a minimum of 36 times.

Sorry, Lip, but most people don't believe everything they read or hear, frankly, because lazy reporters like Ken Rosenthal and Paul "schill" Sullivan are the ones writing it. It's no surprise to me that you feel you must apologize for them.

Randar68
04-20-2005, 02:41 PM
I've used this example many times in showing the stupidity of the former Sox manager and his staff. It took injuries to give this kid a chance...the 'brain-trust,' of the White Sox was so 'brain-dead,' they couldn't even see his potential and were not apparently going to utilize it.


Starting the next season in the pen after succeeding there in 2000 = not going to get a chance to start? Don't hurt yourself making such treacherous leaps...

Do you recall how old Mark was at that time? You chide them for rushing guys, then you chide them for easing a guy into the MLB... Can't have it both ways, Lip (although you always try).

Ol' No. 2
04-20-2005, 02:50 PM
Starting the next season in the pen after succeeding there in 2000 = not going to get a chance to start? Don't hurt yourself making such treacherous leaps...

Do you recall how old Mark was at that time? You chide them for rushing guys, then you chide them for easing a guy into the MLB... Can't have it both ways, Lip (although you always try).Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Buehrle predominantly a starter in AA? He came up in 2000 and relieved only because they needed a reliever more than a starter. It's not uncommon with a very young pitcher to let them get their feet wet in the pen before tossing them out there to start. But he did start 3 games in 2000.

Lip Man 1
04-20-2005, 02:58 PM
No.2:

Can't argue with your comments all I know is what Manager Gandhi said...now maybe when he said it, he was still in a doze from his afternoon nap but that was his comment. Under 'normal' circumstances Buehrle would not have been a starter that's what he stated. The Sox were so shorthanded they were looking for anybody to take the #5 slot that's why he got a look in the spring according to Gandhi.

Lip

Randar68
04-20-2005, 03:00 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Buehrle predominantly a starter in AA? He came up in 2000 and relieved only because they needed a reliever more than a starter. It's not uncommon with a very young pitcher to let them get their feet wet in the pen before tossing them out there to start. But he did start 3 games in 2000.

Yep, he came up because they had a lot of injuries throughout the staff, and he was middle relief and made a few spot starts, pitched great, generally. (So did Barcelo).

He was going to be a starter in the very near future regardless if he started 2001 in the rotation or pen, but he also only had a hair of 200 minor league innings and didn't turn 22 until just prior to the start of the 2001 season!

Then again, Lip thinks we should rush prospects, no wait, prospects are a misnomer, oh wait, take time with the prospects, oh wait, stop blabbing about prospects...

Which way is the wind blowing today, Lip? (insert Jay Windsock tag)

Ol' No. 2
04-20-2005, 03:04 PM
No.2:

Can't argue with your comments all I know is what Manager Gandhi said...now maybe when he said it, he was still in a doze from his afternoon nap but that was his comment. Under 'normal' circumstances Buehrle would not have been a starter that's what he stated. The Sox were so shorthanded they were looking for anybody to take the #5 slot that's why he got a look in the spring according to Gandhi.

LipHad the starting five from 2000 all returned healthy, it's quite possible that Buehrle would have started the season in the bullpen. But saying he would have remained in the bullpen is something else again. After performing very well in AA, he was clearly envisioned as a starter long-term, and he was going to get his shot sooner or later.

Flight #24
04-20-2005, 03:06 PM
Had the starting five from 2000 all returned healthy, it's quite possible that Buehrle would have started the season in the bullpen. But saying he would have remained in the bullpen is something else again. After performing very well in AA, he was clearly envisioned as a starter long-term, and he was going to get his shot sooner or later.

That first sentence is somewhat hilarious given the "health" of Eldred, Sirotka, Parque going into ST that year.

Ol' No. 2
04-20-2005, 03:15 PM
That first sentence is somewhat hilarious given the "health" of Eldred, Sirotka, Parque going into ST that year.Sirotka had been traded for Wells. Eldred made two starts in 2001, which I believe were at the start of the season. IIRC, they put the screw in his elbow after that. And Parque was believed to be healthy for the start of 2001 (he pitched the home opener IIRC). So with a supposedly healthy starting group of D. Wells, Eldred, Baldwin and Parque, there was just one spot open, and Kip Wells and Jon Garland were ahead of Buehrle, making 20 and 13 starts in 2000, respectively. So it wouldn't surprise me if Buehrle was still a starter-in-waiting at the beginning of 2001.

Randar68
04-20-2005, 03:41 PM
Sirotka had been traded for Wells. Eldred made two starts in 2001, which I believe were at the start of the season. IIRC, they put the screw in his elbow after that. And Parque was believed to be healthy for the start of 2001 (he pitched the home opener IIRC). So with a supposedly healthy starting group of D. Wells, Eldred, Baldwin and Parque, there was just one spot open, and Kip Wells and Jon Garland were ahead of Buehrle, making 20 and 13 starts in 2000, respectively. So it wouldn't surprise me if Buehrle was still a starter-in-waiting at the beginning of 2001.

DING DING DING, we have a winner. Lip would rather believe that the Sox would never make Buehrle a starter, period.

Like I said, I hope he didn't pull a hammy or twist an ankle making that remarkable leap...

Hangar18
04-20-2005, 03:46 PM
LOL. A good point about Buehrle becoming a starter only because they ran out of arms?

Buehrle was one of the best pitchers in the minor leagues the year they brought him up late in the season... AS A STARTER. You think Jim Parque or Bionic Eldred was going to keep him out of the opening day rotation the next year, even if they were healthy? *****!

Go defend your buddy Kenny Rosenthal for being an equally ignorant boob.

Ummmmmmmm, the SOX did bring him up as a reliever, and was in the bullpen,
but they quickly gave him a spot start here and there. He was moved into the rotation fulltime the next year

Randar68
04-20-2005, 03:52 PM
Ummmmmmmm, the SOX did bring him up as a reliever, and was in the bullpen,
but they quickly gave him a spot start here and there. He was moved into the rotation fulltime the next year

Either you're misreading my comment or I wasn't clear enough. He was one of the best pitchers in the minors that year as a starter, before the Sox brought him up at the ripe age of 21 with only 217 minor league innings under his belt, basically, one full season. TOTAL.

As a comparison, McCarthy is in his 4th season with the Sox organization this year and coming into the year had 351 IP with only 26 IP at AA.

Hangar18
04-20-2005, 04:05 PM
Sirotka had been traded for Wells. Eldred made two starts in 2001, which I believe were at the start of the season. IIRC, they put the screw in his elbow after that. And Parque was believed to be healthy for the start of 2001 (he pitched the home opener IIRC). So with a supposedly healthy starting group of D. Wells, Eldred, Baldwin and Parque, there was just one spot open, and Kip Wells and Jon Garland were ahead of Buehrle, making 20 and 13 starts in 2000, respectively. So it wouldn't surprise me if Buehrle was still a starter-in-waiting at the beginning of 2001.


This post should stop all of the insults being hurled here. This is how it went
down. When Buehrle got called up, it was without alot of fanfare,
he was just some guy getting called up and heading to the pen. MB simply took the chance he got and ran with it.

Ol' No. 2
04-20-2005, 04:11 PM
This post should stop all of the insults being hurled here. This is how it went
down. When Buehrle got called up, it was without alot of fanfare,
he was just some guy getting called up and heading to the pen. MB simply took the chance he got and ran with it.There was a lot of fanfare among the people following the minor league players. You don't get called up after only 2 years in the minors and 16 AA starts if you're "just some guy getting called up and heading to the pen". He was projected as a starter from Day 1, and was getting some seasoning working the pen until the spot inevitably opened.

Stealth
04-20-2005, 04:14 PM
We'll see who has the better numbers at the end of the year. No surprise that this article comes from a hack like Sullivan. Just today he tried to create a stir by saying Wood busted up the dugout two days ago.

Sullivan is just a hack. Pay him no mind.

Hangar18
04-20-2005, 04:17 PM
Either you're misreading my comment or I wasn't clear enough. He was one of the best pitchers in the minors that year as a starter, before the Sox brought him up at the ripe age of 21 with only 217 minor league innings under his belt, basically, one full season. TOTAL.

As a comparison, McCarthy is in his 4th season with the Sox organization this year and coming into the year had 351 IP with only 26 IP at AA.


Yes, I remember he was thought highly of at the time, but he also didnt
come up here to save the season etc, He was just some guy being called up.
Im kind of lost as to what you guys are argueing about at this point .......

mrwaffle
04-20-2005, 05:03 PM
Now I might be missing the point, but who cares about how a player goes about getting called up as long as that player performs when given the chance.

batmanZoSo
04-20-2005, 05:07 PM
This post should stop all of the insults being hurled here. This is how it went
down. When Buehrle got called up, it was without alot of fanfare,
he was just some guy getting called up and heading to the pen. MB simply took the chance he got and ran with it.

I remember when he first came up I believe he came on in relief against Milwaukee at home in a series in which we won every game like 10-2. He looked good from day 1. Although I think he gave up a run in his first outing. He looked like he belonged.

I also went to his first start in 2001 against the Tigers and he was terrible. After that it was lights out.