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View Full Version : This Crede situation is becoming comical


SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 03:16 PM
OK, I don't like overreacting and saying "this player sucks" and "take XXX out" when they are proven players at the major league level (see Jermaine Dye, AJ Pierczinski, Aaron Rowand and Paul Konerko).

I also realize we are stuck without a player to play 3B for Joe Crede.

But this is getting ridiculous.

Sox wait for Crede (sun times) (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-ssep18.html)

Ozzies nuggets of truthfulness-

"I'm expecting him to hit, and so is everyone else,'' Guillen said of the third baseman, who is batting .244 with no home runs and two RBI after hitting .239 last season. "This kid is pretty close to having a career year. That's why he's in the lineup every day. He has a chance every game to get four hits and seven runs batted in.

Giving the kid confidence is great and everything...I just hope Ozzie and KW don't BELIEVE what they are saying. KW needs to be looking for a replacement and who is going to be available. But then again, he does have that "new" swing he has been working on.

The guy is a HELL of a lot closer to Chris Snopek than Robin Ventura...that I know for sure.

Give him until late May. If he can't cut it, it's time to cut your losses. I hope I am wrong, but I don't pin my hopes on a second half he had in 2003 where had had a .810 OPS.

Ol' No. 2
04-18-2005, 03:21 PM
OK, I don't like overreacting and saying "this player sucks" and "take XXX out" when they are proven players at the major league level (see Jermaine Dye, AJ Pierczinski, Aaron Rowand and Paul Konerko).

I also realize we are stuck without a player to play 3B for Joe Crede.

But this is getting ridiculous.

Sox wait for Crede (sun times) (http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-ssep18.html)

Ozzies nuggets of truthfulness-



Giving the kid confidence is great and everything...I just hope Ozzie and KW don't BELIEVE what they are saying. KW needs to be looking for a replacement and who is going to be available. But then again, he does have that "new" swing he has been working on.

The guy is a HELL of a lot closer to Chris Snopek than Robin Ventura...that I know for sure.

Give him until late May. If he can't cut it, it's time to cut your losses. I hope I am wrong, but I don't pin my hopes on a second half he had in 2003 where had had a .810 OPS.
If you don't like Crede (.244), you have to HATE Konerko (.233), Uribe (.229), Pierzynski (.205) and Dye (.190). But look at the bright side. We still have Willie Harris (.400).

Edit: What's becoming comical is people using every feeble excuse to bash their favorite whipping boy. If Crede had gotten off his butt he could have snagged Ichiro's and Ibanez' home runs in the first inning.

Sad
04-18-2005, 03:23 PM
Crede had a big hit in Saturday's game... I thought it might go out when it came off his bat... hope he gets it in gear soon...

Tekijawa
04-18-2005, 03:26 PM
As of Right now Crede is tied or better in BA than these fantasy 3rd base eligible players:

Crede .244
Rolen .244
Glaus .244
AROD .241
Beltre .239
Polanco.233
Uribe .229
Burroughs .229
Koskie .209
Figgens.200
Chavez .190
Wright .189


So it might be a little early at this point... I'm starting to question him after being a big supporter, but this is really way to early!

shoota
04-18-2005, 03:29 PM
OK, I don't like overreacting and saying "this player sucks" and "take XXX out" when they are proven players at the major league level (see Jermaine Dye, AJ Pierczinski, Aaron Rowand and Paul Konerko).

I also realize we are stuck without a player to play 3B for Joe Crede.

But this is getting ridiculous.

I agree with not overreacting when it comes to the performances of proven MLB players like the ones you mentioned. Since Crede is not a proven MLB player, he therefore does not get the benefit of the doubt. That's what disturbs me when posters bring up the reasoning like, "Rowand, Konerko and Pierzynski aren't hitting either, so there should be no criticism of Crede." Well, there is data that shows that Rowand, Konerko and Pierzynski will all vastly improve on their current statistics, while there is no such data for Crede.

And if anyone watched MythBusters last week on Discovery, they busted the myth of Crede being a great defensive player. They pointed out his multiple errors and unofficial errors of this season, the game he lost with his glove to Minnesota Twins, and his inability to charge and barehand any bunt. The hosts also pointed out the many times Konerko has saved Crede from error on bad throws and throws that pulled Paulie off the bag where Paulie tagged out the runner.

Bottom line: Crede is far from a vacuum at third base.

There's got to be a better 3bman in Japan. Maybe not the best young 3bman in the country, but an older veteran who wouldn't cost much and would be a 1-2 year stopgap at 3B for the White Sox. KW needs to import him and export Crede.

Ol' No. 2
04-18-2005, 03:31 PM
I agree with not overreacting when it comes to the performances of proven MLB players like the ones you mentioned. Since Crede is not a proven MLB player, he therefore does not get the benefit of the doubt. That's what disturbs me when posters bring up the reasoning like, "Rowand, Konerko and Pierzynski aren't hitting either, so there should be no criticism of Crede."

And if anyone watched MythBusters last week on Discovery, they busted the myth of Crede being a great defensive player. They pointed out his multiple errors and unofficial errors of this season, the game he lost with his glove to Minnesota Twins, and his inability to charge and barehand any bunt. The hosts also pointed out the many times Konerko has saved Crede from error on bad throws and throws that pulled Paulie off the bag where Paulie tagged out the runner.

Bottom line: Crede is far from a vacuum at third base.

There's got to be a better 3bman in Japan. KW needs to import him and export Crede.Holy crap. Well, if the Mythbuster dweebs say Crede isn't a good defensive player, that's good enough for me.

shoota
04-18-2005, 03:35 PM
Holy crap. Well, if the Mythbuster dweebs say Crede isn't a good defensive player, that's good enough for me.

Nice of you to bust out the I have no defense for Crede's piss-poor career-long play so I'll bust out the teal excuse. :gulp:

PaleHoseGeorge
04-18-2005, 03:35 PM
There is exactly ONE REASON why Joe Crede plays everyday and Willie Harris sits on the bench: Tadahito Iguchi doesn't play third base.

Last January KW had money left in his payroll budget to sign one more ballplayer and the best he could find was a secondbasemen from Japan. It was a great pickup by the Sox but let's not kid ourselves. Had he found a thirdbasemen of equal value, it's Crede on the bench and Willie at 2B.

faneidde
04-18-2005, 03:36 PM
People need to stop quoting stats from this year to defend Crede. Ol' No. 2 saying we should HATE Konerko if we don't like Crede is absolutley absurd. Look at what Konerko has done in the past compared to Clueless Joe. Also, PK has a homer or two this year, while Crede has 2 RBI. Look, I'm not saying replace Crede now at all costs, but he is a liability right now. Hopefully he can start to put something together, but until he does, please stop making indirect comparissons that say he is doing better than PK.

balke
04-18-2005, 03:36 PM
Strange favoritism after yesterday's game where Dye made the same kind of critical error we criticize Crede for. For both 8 + 4 = 12 games played. I don't even think he's doing that bad. Until further notice...




:threadsucks

daveeym
04-18-2005, 03:38 PM
I agree with not overreacting when it comes to the performances of proven MLB players like the ones you mentioned. Since Crede is not a proven MLB player, he therefore does not get the benefit of the doubt. That's what disturbs me when posters bring up the reasoning like, "Rowand, Konerko and Pierzynski aren't hitting either, so there should be no criticism of Crede." Well, there is data that shows that Rowand, Konerko and Pierzynski will all vastly improve on their current statistics, while there is no such data for Crede.

And if anyone watched MythBusters last week on Discovery, they busted the myth of Crede being a great defensive player. They pointed out his multiple errors and unofficial errors of this season, the game he lost with his glove to Minnesota Twins, and his inability to charge and barehand any bunt. The hosts also pointed out the many times Konerko has saved Crede from error on bad throws and throws that pulled Paulie off the bag where Paulie tagged out the runner.

Bottom line: Crede is far from a vacuum at third base.

There's got to be a better 3bman in Japan. Maybe not the best young 3bman in the country, but an older veteran who wouldn't cost much and would be a 1-2 year stopgap at 3B for the White Sox. KW needs to import him and export Crede.Damn I can't believe I missed that MythBusters. But I agree.

Knockoutinthepar
04-18-2005, 03:39 PM
Give him until late May. If he can't cut it, it's time to cut your losses.


What are their chances of snatching Norihiro Nakamura from the Dodgers? They're not using him while Valentine hitting over 300.

TaylorStSox
04-18-2005, 03:40 PM
The fact that this is still a topic is comical. We know how everyone feels already.


Saying Crede's a poor defensive 3rd baseman is comical as well.

Ol' No. 2
04-18-2005, 03:41 PM
Nice of you to bust out the I have no defense for Crede's piss-poor career-long play so I'll bust out the teal excuse. :gulp:Well, Flav-a-flav and Bridgette Nielsen think Crede's a good defensive 3B, and they have about as much baseball cred as Mythbusters. GMAB.

DaleJRFan
04-18-2005, 03:42 PM
Last time I checked, Crede had an 8 game hitting streak. He also has had some BIG hits to keep rallies alive as well as a game-winning RBI, all while only 12 games into the season.

My expectations for Joe Crede are realistic and so are Ozzie's. A "career year" for Crede is 260/23/85. As long as he keeps glovin' it like he does... I can live with that. He will hit 260, no better. He will never hit better than 260 and I can live with that. Not every player on the team is going to hit 300, have 30 homeruns and 110 RBIs while coming in 10th in MVP balloting, especially with a 72MM payroll.

Did the Sox not just sign an aging rightfielder with health questions for 4mm a year who, over the past 3 or 4 seasons has put up consistant 260/23/85 type numbers? Joe Crede is a decent player and we aren't paying him much. Enjoy it while it lasts and keep the expectations realistic.

Jon Garland only threw 6 1/3 perfect innings Friday. Can we start the "I hate Jon Garland" thread now and get it out of the way?? Jeeeez.

mikehuff
04-18-2005, 03:43 PM
There is exactly ONE REASON why Joe Crede plays everyday and Willie Harris sits on the bench: Tadahito Iguchi doesn't play third base.

Yeah, but Uribe does play third and Iguchi was a SS until the last couple of years. Also, Harris has been working out at SS. If the situation is drastic enough, it could happen, but the Sox are going to wait out Joe Crede the entire year... just watch.

shoota
04-18-2005, 03:43 PM
Strange favoritism after yesterday's game where Dye made the same kind of critical error we criticize Crede for. For both 8 + 4 = 12 games played. I don't even think he's doing that bad. Until further notice...

Completely different situations. If Crede has made that play in Minnesota, Buehrle wouldn't have had the chance to give up the GAME CHANGING 3-run bomb to Hunter because the inning would have been over.

Dye's error turned a guaranteed single into a triple. Dye had no chance to make an out on his error like Crede did. Dye allowed a man to advance 180 feet. Dye couldn't have ended the inning like Crede could have.

And again, let's not use the "well if you bash Crede's horrible play, then you have to equally bash Dye's horrible play" excuse, because Dye is a proven MLB player whose history suggests he will vastly improve his play, while Crede's MLB history does not.

DaleJRFan
04-18-2005, 03:46 PM
Completely different situations. If Crede has made that play in Minnesota, Buehrle wouldn't have had the chance to give up the GAME CHANGING 3-run bomb to Hunter because the inning would have been over.

Dye's error turned a guaranteed single into a triple. Dye had no chance to make an out on his error like Crede did. Dye allowed a man to advance 180 feet. Dye couldn't have ended the inning like Crede could have.

And again, let's not use the "well if you bash Crede's horrible play, then you have to equally bash Dye's horrible play" excuse, because Dye is a proven MLB player whose history suggests he will vastly improve his play, while Crede's MLB history does not.

I suppose the bad pitch Buehrle threw to Torii Hunter was Crede's fault too.

mikehuff
04-18-2005, 03:48 PM
There's got to be a better 3bman in Japan. Maybe not the best young 3bman in the country, but an older veteran who wouldn't cost much and would be a 1-2 year stopgap at 3B for the White Sox. KW needs to import him and export Crede.

There was a Japanese 3rd baseman that the Sox were looking at... Norihiro Nakamura. Remember his name? He was mentioned before Iguchi's name ever came up.
He just made his first appearance for the Dodgers last week. They origianlly sent him to the minors out of spring training and he was contemplating going back to Japan. I guess he's up now though.

Ol' No. 2
04-18-2005, 03:48 PM
SSDD. Wail on your favorite whipping boy. Every loss is his fault. Yada yada.

:threadsucks

jabrch
04-18-2005, 03:49 PM
Yeah, but Uribe does play third and Iguchi was a SS until the last couple of years. Also, Harris has been working out at SS. If the situation is drastic enough, it could happen, but the Sox are going to wait out Joe Crede the entire year... just watch.

Neither Harris nor Iguchi can play SS. That's nonsense.

shoota
04-18-2005, 03:50 PM
The fact that this is still a topic is comical. We know how everyone feels already.


Saying Crede's a poor defensive 3rd baseman is comical as well.

I never called Crede's defense poor. I said it's not great and definately not GG worthy. He can field the balls hit in arms length. He has an above average arm. But he's not athletic. He's not a vacuum. He's been exposed.

The only reason he still gets praised for his defense is because people have heard it said many times so they think it must be true. It's like Carlos Lee being called a liability in left field in 2003-04 because he was previously was a liability in the field.

JoseCanseco6969
04-18-2005, 03:50 PM
What are their chances of snatching Norihiro Nakamura from the Dodgers? They're not using him while Valentine hitting over 300.

ahh the Valentine strikes again!

TaylorStSox
04-18-2005, 03:50 PM
Yeah, but Uribe does play third and Iguchi was a SS until the last couple of years. Also, Harris has been working out at SS. If the situation is drastic enough, it could happen, but the Sox are going to wait out Joe Crede the entire year... just watch.


There's a reason Iguchi isn't playing SS. Have you seen him throw?

PaleHoseGeorge
04-18-2005, 03:51 PM
Yeah, but Uribe does play third and Iguchi was a SS until the last couple of years. Also, Harris has been working out at SS. If the situation is drastic enough, it could happen, but the Sox are going to wait out Joe Crede the entire year... just watch.

God help us if the Sox chosen "solution" to this problem is spelling Uribe at short with Harris all season long. Better options figure to be available long before the trade deadline.

As for Crede, Ozzie and KW have both made noise this spring that Joe needs to step up because he won't get anymore chances. Replacing our team's thirdbasemen is definitely on the agenda this June if Crede is having another Crede-like season.

This is MLB. Performance counts.

Tekijawa
04-18-2005, 03:51 PM
Had he found a thirdbasemen of equal value, it's Crede on the bench and Willie at 2B.

No, he would have been thrown out by about 15 feet at second... oh we're talking Defensively?!!? Sorry!

balke
04-18-2005, 03:51 PM
Completely different situations. If Crede has made that play in Minnesota, Buehrle wouldn't have had the chance to give up the GAME CHANGING 3-run bomb to Hunter because the inning would have been over.

Dye's error turned a guaranteed single into a triple. Dye had no chance to make an out on his error like Crede did. Dye allowed a man to advance 180 feet. Dye couldn't have ended the inning like Crede could have.

And again, let's not use the "well if you bash Crede's horrible play, then you have to equally bash Dye's horrible play" excuse, because Dye is a proven MLB player whose history suggests he will vastly improve his play, while Crede's MLB history does not.

Dye's proven to strike out a lot, and hit .190 so far. His error was ridiculous, dare I say Valentinesque. HOw was Dye's play not Game changing? Had he not let it roll past him for a 2 base error, Ichiro doesn't get intentionally walked, and if he does, he won't be able to steal second because it would be filled. Then the single allowed doesn't score 2 runs.

They were only completely different because Dye botched an easy play, Crede missed a difficult ball to field.

DaleJRFan
04-18-2005, 03:52 PM
There was a Japanese 3rd baseman that the Sox were looking at... Norihiro Nakamura. Remember his name? He was mentioned before Iguchi's name ever came up.
He just made his first appearance for the Dodgers last week. They origianlly sent him to the minors out of spring training and he was contemplating going back to Japan. I guess he's up now though.

I actually watched a Dodgers game on ESPN and got to see him pinch hit. I have to say, he looks old and frail.. slow bat.. got fooled on a bad pitch out of the zone. Just one at bat, but he looked really bad. Then again, Iguchi has looked really bad on a few occasions and has looked spectacular on others (more so spectacular :cool: ).

I'll take Crede over Nakamura, if that is the debate now.

TaylorStSox
04-18-2005, 03:52 PM
I never called Crede's defense poor. I said it's not great and definately not GG worthy. He can field the balls hit in arms length. He has an above average arm. But he's not athletic. He's not a vacuum. He's been exposed.

The only reason he still gets praised for his defense is because people have heard it said many times so they think it must be true. It's like Carlos Lee being called a liability in left field in 2003-04 because he was previously was a liability in the field.

My point exactly. Carlos Lee was a liability in the field. He didn't make errors because his range was poor and he didn't take any risks.

Crede moves very well laterally. He has a plus arm. He goes in on the ball well.

SOX ADDICT '73
04-18-2005, 03:56 PM
I'm not coming out on one side or the other on the Crede debate, but this is my first season on WSI, and I'm wondering if what I'm noticing is our typical MO:

Player X has a bad play/game/week/month; one WSIer starts a thread with the title being some variation of the following: "X sucks! He's got to go!"; then several other posters point out how early in the season it is, or how good the pitching/hitting/defense of the opposing teams has been lately; after a while, we see either
:threadblows:

or

:threadsucks

a few times each; eventually, player X drives in a big run/makes a game-saving catch/throws a complete game shutout; and we move on to the next under-achieving schlep on the roster.

Do I have it about right?

daveeym
04-18-2005, 03:56 PM
I posted it before and i'll post it again, crede had the same fielding percentage as Valentin last year .965. I'd love for a lot of people to reconcile that. For some reason i suspect joe defenders were valentin bashers last year.

SoxFan76
04-18-2005, 03:57 PM
There is exactly ONE REASON why Joe Crede plays everyday and Willie Harris sits on the bench: Tadahito Iguchi doesn't play third base.

Last January KW had money left in his payroll budget to sign one more ballplayer and the best he could find was a secondbasemen from Japan. It was a great pickup by the Sox but let's not kid ourselves. Had he found a thirdbasemen of equal value, it's Crede on the bench and Willie at 2B.

I don't know if I buy that. Uribe can play 3rd, and Willie or Tadahito can play short...maybe not well, but they can play there. Crede is still in the lineup because they (Sox coaches/management) truly believe Joe can turn it around.

Honestly though, Crede had 20 homers and 70 RBIs last year. He plays above average defense and is very clutch. I don't see why people have such a problem with our 8th place hitter.

DaleJRFan
04-18-2005, 03:57 PM
As for Crede, Ozzie and KW have both made noise this spring that Joe needs to step up because he won't get anymore chances. Replacing our team's thirdbasemen is definitely on the agenda this June if Crede is having another Crede-like season.

Though I will admit to being a Crede supporter and disagree with most of the anti-Crede comments here, I have an issue with this season for him, whether or not he does well... do you resign a guy like Crede based on one year of "acceptable" performance? Does it make sense to lock up a guy who has hit 240 for 2 full seasons based on one season of 260/23/80 (assuming he delivers)??? That's my question. As much as I like the guy and want him to do well, I can't see the Sox stickin' with him, even if he picks it up considerably this season. Plus, he's a Boras client, not sure how that fits in the mix.

shoota
04-18-2005, 03:58 PM
I suppose the bad pitch Buehrle threw to Torii Hunter was Crede's fault too.

Another false argument from the Crede supporters. No, Buehrle is at fault for the pitch he threw to Torii Hunter, and Crede has no blame for Buehrle's pitch. What Crede IS at fault for is for making Buehrle have to pitch to Hunter in that situation. Remember, if Crede made that play, the inning would have been over without Hunter even batting.

Why is that so difficult to understand? Unless you believe that Buehrle should strike out every batter he faces and not let one ball get hit into play. ***?

Also remember that after that Hunter home run gave the Twins the lead, Johan Santana put it on cruise control. He was hittable before that play; not hittable after. If Crede makes that play, I believe the Sox's chances of winning would have greatly improved. But hey, you believe that any run that scores must be the fault of the pitcher, so I guess you'd disagree.

Frater Perdurabo
04-18-2005, 03:58 PM
Didn't Carlos Lee come up as a third baseman, who the Sox converted into a left fielder? If so, let's trade Crede straight up for Carlos Lee and Ben Sheets.

shoota
04-18-2005, 03:58 PM
There was a Japanese 3rd baseman that the Sox were looking at... Norihiro Nakamura. Remember his name? He was mentioned before Iguchi's name ever came up.
He just made his first appearance for the Dodgers last week. They origianlly sent him to the minors out of spring training and he was contemplating going back to Japan. I guess he's up now though.

I don't remember him or the Sox's interest in him. I would like to hear more about him though.

balke
04-18-2005, 04:00 PM
I'm not coming out on one side or the other on the Crede debate, but this is my first season on WSI, and I'm wondering if what I'm noticing is our typical MO:

Player X has a bad play/game/week/month; one WSIer starts a thread with the title being some variation of the following: "X sucks! He's got to go!"; then several other posters point out how early in the season it is, or how good the pitching/hitting/defense of the opposing teams has been lately; after a while, we see either
threadblows

or

threadsucks

a few times each; eventually, player X drives in a big run/makes a game-saving catch/throws a complete game shutout; and we move on to the next under-achieving schlep on the roster.

Do I have it about right?


You're picking up things nicely. Eventually we'll lump the 100 Crede threads into a pile so it becomes less of a mess (I'm hoping). And people start waiting at least 25-30 games to judge someone's play.

TaylorStSox
04-18-2005, 04:02 PM
Another false argument from the Crede supporters. No, Buehrle is at fault for the pitch he threw to Torii Hunter, and Crede has no blame for Buehrle's pitch. What Crede IS at fault for is for making Buehrle have to pitch to Hunter in that situation. Remember, if Crede made that play, the inning would have been over without Hunter even batting.

Why is that so difficult to understand? Unless you believe that Buehrle should strike out every batter he faces and not let one ball get hit into play. ***?

Also remember that after that Hunter home run gave the Twins the lead, Johan Santana put it on cruise control. He was hittable before that play; not hittable after. If Crede makes that play, I believe the Sox's chances of winning would have greatly improved. But hey, you believe that any run that scores must be the fault of the pitcher, so I guess you'd disagree.


You're still wrong about that play. Have you ever played organized baseball before? If you have, you'd know that his job was to try to knock the ball down. He did everything in his power to. He can't rely on the SS to back him when the ball is that deep in the hole. Jesus. *Head, meet wall*

Tekijawa
04-18-2005, 04:03 PM
Aaron Rowand Runs BAD ROUTES!!!!

balke
04-18-2005, 04:04 PM
Another false argument from the Crede supporters. No, Buehrle is at fault for the pitch he threw to Torii Hunter, and Crede has no blame for Buehrle's pitch. What Crede IS at fault for is for making Buehrle have to pitch to Hunter in that situation. Remember, if Crede made that play, the inning would have been over without Hunter even batting.

Why is that so difficult to understand? Unless you believe that Buehrle should strike out every batter he faces and not let one ball get hit into play. ***?

Also remember that after that Hunter home run gave the Twins the lead, Johan Santana put it on cruise control. He was hittable before that play; not hittable after. If Crede makes that play, I believe the Sox's chances of winning would have greatly improved. But hey, you believe that any run that scores must be the fault of the pitcher, so I guess you'd disagree.


Get over it already. He was aggresively pursuing an out.

chisox06
04-18-2005, 04:05 PM
If you don't like Crede (.244), you have to HATE Konerko (.233), Uribe (.229), Pierzynski (.205) and Dye (.190). But look at the bright side. We still have Willie Harris (.400).

Edit: What's becoming comical is people using every feeble excuse to bash their favorite whipping boy. If Crede had gotten off his butt he could have snagged Ichiro's and Ibanez' home runs in the first inning.

The only knock I have against that is all the players you mentioned above (Paulie, AJ, Dye, and even Uribe) those are hitters that have proven to be good at the major league level with the numbers they've put up in the past. You can expect all of those Avg's to rise without a doubt, and considering Crede is hitting .244 (right around his career average) you cant say the same for him, looks like the same old thing were all used to. Same goes for Willie, which obvisouly his average will drop considerably.

mantis1212
04-18-2005, 04:06 PM
What are their chances of snatching Norihiro Nakamura from the Dodgers? They're not using him while Valentine hitting over 300.

Who's this Valentine guy hitting .300? Let's go after him!

TaylorStSox
04-18-2005, 04:08 PM
For the last time. Crede's career average is .255. It's not good but everyone is all over the board when they state that average.

Chicago83
04-18-2005, 04:09 PM
If you don't like Crede (.244), you have to HATE Konerko (.233), Uribe (.229), Pierzynski (.205) and Dye (.190). But look at the bright side. We still have Willie Harris (.400).

Edit: What's becoming comical is people using every feeble excuse to bash their favorite whipping boy. If Crede had gotten off his butt he could have snagged Ichiro's and Ibanez' home runs in the first inning.

Good post. You're exactly right. There is no reason to get upset about Crede hitting .244. Not that I am happy with him but keep in mind he is hitting the ball a lot better than Dye. If Crede hovers around .240 come june then we should start thinking about a little help at 3B.

shoota
04-18-2005, 04:10 PM
I'm not coming out on one side or the other on the Crede debate, but this is my first season on WSI, and I'm wondering if what I'm noticing is our typical MO:

Player X has a bad play/game/week/month;

or
a few times each; eventually, player X drives in a big run/makes a game-saving catch/throws a complete game shutout; and we move on to the next under-achieving schlep on the roster.

Your statement is correct if you replace "bad play/game/week/month" with "BAD CAREER!"

Some of us at WSI want to see the Sox win the World Series and when we see scrubs on the team who are preventing us from seeing that, we acccurately place the blame on them.

It's comical that no one is defending Crede with statistics, just emotion or talking around the accurate assessment of Crede's horrible play with posts like this. That says a lot about Crede the player when his fans respond to his criticism with this: We can't defend him, we have no reason to think he'll improve, but Hawk said he's hitting the ball hard which means he's on the verge of becoming Adrian Beltre, so I like him.

Ol' No. 2
04-18-2005, 04:10 PM
The only knock I have against that is all the players you mentioned above (Paulie, AJ, Dye, and even Uribe) those are hitters that have proven to be good at the major league level with the numbers they've put up in the past. You can expect all of those Avg's to rise without a doubt, and considering Crede is hitting .244 (right around his career average) you cant say the same for him, looks like the same old thing were all used to. Same goes for Willie, which obvisouly his average will drop considerably.Except I'll bet anything that the same people ragging on Crede were ragging on Rowand and Konerko this time last year. Beats me why people get their kicks trying to blame every loss on their favorite whipping boy. :dunno:

Chicago83
04-18-2005, 04:11 PM
Who's this Valentine guy hitting .300? Let's go after him!

I am sure all the fans in LA are getting excited over Jose. Poor bastards. Just wait till mid july when he strikes out 8 times in a row and then commits 2 errors in a game. I can't believe that a team with a bankroll like the dodgers has Jose as their starting 3B. I like Jose, but on a good team he is nothing more than a bench player.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-18-2005, 04:13 PM
I don't see why people have such a problem with our 8th place hitter.

I have a congenital problem with our 8th and 9th best everyday hitters. The key to improving the line up is always to seek ways to upgrade the hitting at the positions where the current everyday player is eighth or ninth best on the team. The only exception to this is catcher where glovework counts more than batwork.

Last I checked neither Crede or Harris catch, and only one of them has an everyday job... thanks to Iguchi. Halfway home!
:thumbsup:

Knockoutinthepar
04-18-2005, 04:14 PM
Another reason to consider Nakamura: in addition to third base, he's played 2nd and Short.

mweflen
04-18-2005, 04:14 PM
Defending Crede with stats:

Age: 26
Career Average: .255
Average HR's in a full season: 20
Average RBI's in a full season: 72
Average Errors in a full season: 13

I don't know about anyone else, but .255/20/72 will work for me from a defensive specialist. And he probably hasn't peaked, either, given his age. I think it's a safe bet we'll see more than a few .275/25/90-type seasons from him, if not this year, for the next few.

Chicago83
04-18-2005, 04:16 PM
The only knock I have against that is all the players you mentioned above (Paulie, AJ, Dye, and even Uribe) those are hitters that have proven to be good at the major league level with the numbers they've put up in the past. You can expect all of those Avg's to rise without a doubt, and considering Crede is hitting .244 (right around his career average) you cant say the same for him, looks like the same old thing were all used to. Same goes for Willie, which obvisouly his average will drop considerably.

That's a bad argument. So you expect Crede to hit .300 because he is unproven and you criticize him for it yet defend Paulie and Dye because they are proven hitters? The point is that it's mid april and there has not been enough at-bats for anyone to prove themselves. Give Crede a chance. He's had 41 at-bats.

TaylorStSox
04-18-2005, 04:16 PM
Defending Crede with stats:

Age: 26
Career Average: .255
Average HR's in a full season: 20
Average RBI's in a full season: 72
Average Errors in a full season: 13

I don't know about anyone else, but .255/20/72 will work for me from a defensive specialist. And he probably hasn't peaked, either, given his age. I think it's a safe bet we'll see more than a few .275/25/90-type seasons from him, if not this year, for the next few.

:gulp:

balke
04-18-2005, 04:18 PM
It's comical that no one is defending Crede with statistics, just emotion or talking around the accurate assessment of Crede's horrible play with posts like this.


:?:


If you don't like Crede (.244), you have to HATE Konerko (.233), Uribe (.229), Pierzynski (.205) and Dye (.190). But look at the bright side. We still have Willie Harris (.400).



Everyone wants a WS. Please tell us who is to replace Crede for what price for better #'s. My stat figure is that he plays well at 3rd, hits over 20 hr's, slumped last season in avg. and is looking to rebound like Paulie did after 2003.

I'll join in your "comedy" if Crede has shown nothing after 30 games. Also, if he's the weakest leak come the trade deadline. Until then, I don't find this thread comical at all.

Foulke29
04-18-2005, 04:21 PM
I'd like you Crede bashers to ask yourself a question. How long did it take Beltre to put together a full season that was good?

DaleJRFan
04-18-2005, 04:22 PM
Another false argument from the Crede supporters. No, Buehrle is at fault for the pitch he threw to Torii Hunter, and Crede has no blame for Buehrle's pitch. What Crede IS at fault for is for making Buehrle have to pitch to Hunter in that situation. Remember, if Crede made that play, the inning would have been over without Hunter even batting.

Why is that so difficult to understand? Unless you believe that Buehrle should strike out every batter he faces and not let one ball get hit into play. ***?

Also remember that after that Hunter home run gave the Twins the lead, Johan Santana put it on cruise control. He was hittable before that play; not hittable after. If Crede makes that play, I believe the Sox's chances of winning would have greatly improved. But hey, you believe that any run that scores must be the fault of the pitcher, so I guess you'd disagree.

This is becoming comical. Again, I'll bet that you'd blame Crede for the other baserunner(s) that scored on the homer, too. Ugh. Give it a rest already.

shoota
04-18-2005, 04:23 PM
Defending Crede with stats:

Age: 26
Career Average: .255
Average HR's in a full season: 20
Average RBI's in a full season: 72
Average Errors in a full season: 13

I don't know about anyone else, but .255/20/72 will work for me from a defensive specialist. And he probably hasn't peaked, either, given his age. I think it's a safe bet we'll see more than a few .275/25/90-type seasons from him, if not this year, for the next few.

His career average may be .255, but he's on a downward trend:

2002: .285
2003: .261
2004: .239

And let's not forget his month-to-month batting averages. He is known to completely tank entire months of a season (I think he had 4 horrible months last year out of a 6 month SEASON!).

He's too slow, his swing's too long, he doesn't walk, the only reason he's not batting 9th is because he'd handcuff Podsednik on the basepaths, and now even his glove his costing the Sox baseball games. But that's okay, since the Sox are guaranteed to win 2 out of every 3 ballgames.

Why is there such great defense of such a bad player?

voodoochile
04-18-2005, 04:24 PM
Oh good we've found this year's Choice V Manos topic - Joe Crede or Not Joe Crede... :D:

Whether is nobler to sling some crap at Joe or patiently stand back and watch him grow. (Sorry Big Bill...)

Honestly... Maybe I can understand it a tiny bit after the Buehrle serves it up to Toriiiii game because of the missed chance on the previous play (not really, but what the heck 10% of me says, "let them rant").

But since that game, he has a hit in every game. He has driven in a run, scored some runs, missed a couple of HR by the tiniest of margins and been basically effective at 3B including a nice play on a good bunt yesterday.

He isn't spectacular, but he's the best the Sox got for that position. Will he ever be Robin Ventura? Probably not. Will he be a solid player who gives the Sox steady defense and a decent low order bat? Yes, he already is, IMO.

Of course it's 12 games into the season and he isn't leading the league in HR, range factor, stolen bases and stolen doubles down the 3B line, so the Sox should simply cut his lazy worthless good-for-nothing ass...:rolleyes:

Alas poor Joe... I knew him well...:whiner:

shoota
04-18-2005, 04:24 PM
I'll join in your "comedy" if Crede has shown nothing after 30 games. Also, if he's the weakest leak come the trade deadline. Until then, I don't find this thread comical at all.

There's got to be someone better and available somewhere in the entire country of Japan, or Graffanino, Tony.

Ol' No. 2
04-18-2005, 04:26 PM
His career average may be .255, but he's on a downward trend:

2002: .285
2003: .261
2004: .239

And let's not forget his month-to-month batting averages. He is known to completely tank entire months of a season (I think he had 4 horrible months last year out of a 6 month SEASON!).

He's too slow, his swing's too long, he doesn't walk, the only reason he's not batting 9th is because he'd handcuff Podsednik on the basepaths, and now even his glove his costing the Sox baseball games. But that's okay, since the Sox are guaranteed to win 2 out of every 3 ballgames.

Why is there such great defense of such a bad player?My blood pressure dropped from 120 last week to 110 this week. Does that mean I won't live to see the end of the season?

DaleJRFan
04-18-2005, 04:29 PM
Can't Ross Gload play third base?

TaylorStSox
04-18-2005, 04:29 PM
His career average may be .255, but he's on a downward trend:

2002: .285
2003: .261
2004: .239

And let's not forget his month-to-month batting averages. He is known to completely tank entire months of a season (I think he had 4 horrible months last year out of a 6 month SEASON!).

He's too slow, his swing's too long, he doesn't walk, the only reason he's not batting 9th is because he'd handcuff Podsednik on the basepaths, and now even his glove his costing the Sox baseball games. But that's okay, since the Sox are guaranteed to win 2 out of every 3 ballgames.

Why is there such great defense of such a bad player?


For me, it's because your "bang head into wall" routine is bizaare. I swear I've only seen you talk about Crede.


We've gone over it a million times. Some people think he's horrible. Other's think that he's adequate with an upside. I think that I'd rather have a good defensive 3rd baseman on this team. I can think of a pretty damn good defensive 3rd sacker who's in the hall of fame with a .267 career average. He's there because of his D and clutch hitting. I'm not saying that Crede is anywhere in the league of Brooks Robinson but it illustrates that good fielding 3rd baseman with an average bat can be very valuable.

balke
04-18-2005, 04:29 PM
There's got to be someone better and available somewhere in the entire country of Japan, or Graffanino, Tony.

Ah, Tony Graffanino reference. It all comes together now. Now the the thread is officially funny. A lifetime .330 OBP, and .260 avg.... where could we possibly get those kind of #'s with better defense?

faneidde
04-18-2005, 04:32 PM
defensive specialist.
That's a pretty big
:hawk
*Stretch*

maurice
04-18-2005, 04:35 PM
OK, I don't like overreacting and saying "this player sucks" and "take XXX out" when they are proven players at the major league level (see Jermaine Dye, AJ Pierczinski, Aaron Rowand and Paul Konerko).

Apparently this portion of your post does not appear on some posters' screens. You should look into that.

While the Crede bashing has been over the top the last few weeks, I can't think of a single player on the 25-man roster who is less deserving of a legion of defenders. I'd be thrilled if Crede had an "average bat," but it's his job to prove it ASAP. He's quickly running out of chances.

Where's ma_deuce's .sig when you need it?

fquaye149
04-18-2005, 04:36 PM
ugh. what an annoying thread.

Yes we'd like to have all stars at all positions.

Failing that we'd like to have solid hitters at all positions.

Great. But please approach it logically in a way that

a.) doesn't involve pretending Graffanino is a better option (or some scrub who has lit up the sox in the past and therefore we need to sign!!! [see bobby kielty])

b.) doesn't involve significantly upping payroll to the tune of millions of $$$ (see Hangar's replace Dye w/ Carlos Lee thread)

c.) doesn't involve people playing horrendously out of position (see the put willie/iguchi at ss or the "didn't paulie used to play third?" posts)

I really see us having a hard time figuring it out.

The kid's not getting special treatment. He's just what we have right now. I mean for chrissakes they tried GLOAD at 3b in spring training. It's not like they have handed Crede the job on a silver freaking platter....:rolleyes:

RKMeibalane
04-18-2005, 04:37 PM
What are their chances of snatching Norihiro Nakamura from the Dodgers? They're not using him while Valentine hitting over 300.

There is no one named Valentine on the Dodgers roster.

RKMeibalane
04-18-2005, 04:39 PM
I suppose the bad pitch Buehrle threw to Torii Hunter was Crede's fault too.

He would never have thrown that pitch if Crede had made the play.

Ol' No. 2
04-18-2005, 04:41 PM
He would never have thrown that pitch if Crede had made the play.And even if he had, Crede should have caught it before it went over the wall.

tstrike2000
04-18-2005, 04:41 PM
Is Herbert Perry or Vance Law still available? Remember Uribe was hitting about .375 this time last year. Crede's average will rebound. There's no better alternative's right now.

RKMeibalane
04-18-2005, 04:41 PM
You're picking up things nicely. Eventually we'll lump the 100 Crede threads into a pile so it becomes less of a mess (I'm hoping). And people start waiting at least 25-30 games to judge someone's play.

That's a good idea. We can put the 100 or so Crede threads right next to your twenty whine-fest threads about attendance. :cool:

RKMeibalane
04-18-2005, 04:43 PM
And even if he had, Crede should have caught it before it went over the wall.

Actually, what's weird about that home run was that if the Metrodome still had the plexi-glass in place, the ball would have hit one of the panels and stayed in the park.

shoota
04-18-2005, 04:43 PM
For me, it's because your "bang head into wall" routine is bizaare. I swear I've only seen you talk about Crede.

I think that adds to my credibility. Since you've never seen me talk about any of the other underperforming MLB players on the Sox team in a negative manner, in comparison, it should show you just how bad Clueless Joe is. :gulp:

Tony G's the man. He only left because he wanted to be an every day player, now we can give him the chance. After he tore his anterior cruciate ligament on that play in short center, he told Herm and JM that he could play on it, before knowing the severity of his injury. Playing on a torn ACL: That's balls. Relax, that's not the reason I want him back on the South Side. I want him back because I can live with his .260 short, less likely to miss swing than Crede's windmill. And if you think Crede is clutch, you'll really like Graffy.

Honestly the Tony G suggestion was said in partial jest. I don't know if he has the arm to play third. But it's a no brainer to take him over Crede at the plate.

Remember when all you Crede fans thought Joe was going to hit 40 homers in 2004 because he showed up to camp with an extra 20 pounds? lol I think that's a lot more irrational than anything I've ever said about him. For those of you going to the game tonight, listen hard for the boos I unleash on Crede when he's introduced tonight. Although, it'll be near impossible to identify one boo out of thousands.

Ol' No. 2
04-18-2005, 04:43 PM
Actually, what's weird about that home run was that if the Metrodome still had the plexi-glass in place, the ball would have hit one of the panels and stayed in the park.I'm sure Crede must be responsible for removing those panels.

RKMeibalane
04-18-2005, 04:43 PM
Is Herbert Perry or Vance Law still available? Remember Uribe was hitting about .375 this time last year. Crede's average will rebound. There's no better alternative's right now.

The Sox can always bring back Royce Clayton and move Uribe to third.

balke
04-18-2005, 04:44 PM
He would never have thrown that pitch if Crede had made the play.

Can be said about any player that makes any error in any game at anytime. I don't even think Crede was charged an error on that play. People are just so quick to jump down his throat because he sucked last season (Which is somewhat fair). Until this kid plays more games we're all

:deadhorse:


And there are no Japanese Rolens, and Graffanino sucks.

balke
04-18-2005, 04:46 PM
That's a good idea. We can put the 100 or so Crede threads right next to your twenty whine-fest threads about attendance. :cool: I made one thread about it in my WSI career that was split in 2. Get over it. And go to tonights game.

mealfred13
04-18-2005, 04:46 PM
And if anyone watched MythBusters last week on Discovery, they busted the myth of Crede being a great defensive player. They pointed out his multiple errors and unofficial errors of this season, the game he lost with his glove to Minnesota Twins, and his inability to charge and barehand any bunt. The hosts also pointed out the many times Konerko has saved Crede from error on bad throws and throws that pulled Paulie off the bag where Paulie tagged out the runner.

Bottom line: Crede is far from a vacuum at third base.

There's got to be a better 3bman in Japan. Maybe not the best young 3bman in the country, but an older veteran who wouldn't cost much and would be a 1-2 year stopgap at 3B for the White Sox. KW needs to import him and export Crede.

First of all, he didn't lose the game in Minny, for the 457th time, Buehrle did by throwing a crappy pitch to Torii Hunter that he took yard for 3 runs.

Second, if Crede throws a ball that pulls Konerko off the bag requiring a tag, it was obviously on an off-balance or difficult throw, and we're lucky to have a 3rd baseman who is capable of making a throw good enough for the 1st baseman to make a tag and get the out. Besides that, Crede is a slow starter, in both defense and offense, and something like 50% of his errors (as few as they were) came within in the first couple weeks of the season last year and the year before. It's called getting back into the groove of things.

I'm not gonna complain about his defense at all, because he has proven he's an above-average third baseman over the past couple years. As for his hitting, I'm not going to start worrying until everyone on the team is hitting .290, and Crede is sitting on .220 and we're halfway into the season. As for now, we need to stop starting new threads about Joe Crede sucking. And while we're at it, let that go for Cotts, Shingo, Ozzie, and whoever the hell else is whipping boy of the day. Someone move these threads to the Roadhouse, for the love of God.

TaylorStSox
04-18-2005, 04:47 PM
I think that adds to my credibility. Since you've never seen me talk about any of the other underperforming MLB players on the Sox team in a negative manner, in comparison, it should show you just how bad Clueless Joe is. :gulp:

Tony G's the man. He only left because he wanted to be an every day player, now we can give him the chance. After he tore his anterior cruciate ligament on that play in short center, he told Herm and JM that he could play on it, before knowing the severity of his injury. Playing on a torn ACL: That's balls. Relax, that's not the reason I want him back on the South Side. I want him back because I can live with his .260 short, less likely to miss swing than Crede's windmill. And if you think Crede is clutch, you'll really like Graffy.

Honestly the Tony G suggestion was said in partial jest. I don't know if he has the arm to play third. But it's a no brainer to take him over Crede at the plate.

Remember when all you Crede fans thought Joe was going to hit 40 homers in 2004 because he showed up to camp with an extra 20 pounds? lol I think that's a lot more irrational than anything I've ever said about him. For those of you going to the game tonight, listen hard for the boos I unleash on Crede when he's introduced tonight. Although, it'll be near impossible to identify one boo out of thousands.


Did you just say Tony G? LOL.

Ol' No. 2
04-18-2005, 04:49 PM
Did you just say Tony G? LOL.In the same post where he says "that adds to my credibility." :rolleyes:

tstrike2000
04-18-2005, 04:51 PM
The Sox can always bring back Royce Clayton and move Uribe to third.

I like that idea. We could also bring back Ivan Calderon from the dead to platoon with Timo and Ozuna in left field and have Pods pinch run in the meantime to keep his groin loose.

gosox41
04-18-2005, 04:52 PM
. If Crede had gotten off his butt he could have snagged Ichiro's and Ibanez' home runs in the first inning.


I heard Crede could leap tall buildings and is faster then a locomotive, so why not?


Bob

RKMeibalane
04-18-2005, 04:54 PM
I made one thread about it in my WSI career that was split in 2. Get over it. And go to tonights game.

I have a class this evening at 6:15. I also live three hours away from US Cellular Field. If you're going to whine about attendance, at least wait until school is out. The vast majority of the posters here have other things to do with their time besides watching baseball.

shoota
04-18-2005, 04:56 PM
:tealpolice:

That's enough. I'm invoking a moratorium on teal in this thread.

DaleJRFan
04-18-2005, 04:57 PM
I mean for chrissakes they tried GLOAD at 3b in spring training.

They tried Burke, I believe, and it was miserable. I know he's playing 3B at AAA this year while Ben Davis catches. Would a defensive liability in the form of Burke who hits 300 with NO power be a suitable replacement for Joe "I can't hit my weight" Crede???

Gload is lefthanded. Can't play 3rd, well... he could, but it would be very funny to watch.

RKMeibalane
04-18-2005, 04:59 PM
There's always Josh Paul. He is Mr. Versatility, after all.

balke
04-18-2005, 05:03 PM
I have a class this evening at 6:15. I also live three hours away from US Cellular Field. If you're going to whine about attendance, at least wait until school is out. The vast majority of the posters here have other things to do with their time besides watching baseball.

A different thread, a different day. Let it drop and it will go away. Promise :wink: .

TwinGats
04-18-2005, 05:29 PM
For the past two years I've been one of the first people to defend Crede when people start talking smack about our 3B. Things like wait, he'll come around... Do you know how many clutch hits this guy gets... He's only been starting for a year, year and a half, etc... Now he's entering what will be his third full time year in a game where three strikes and you're out. As much as i would like to see Crede succeed on the Sox, his third chance is here and it's time for him to prove us naysayers wrong or...:mad:

Foulke29
04-18-2005, 05:51 PM
You know what else - I'm tired of the griping about the "error" that Crede made diving for that ball. With a guy on 1st and 2nd, Crede had a job - if the ball was hit toward him within his range - keep the ball in the infield. He did that. He stoped the ball from going into left and allowing a run to score with a guy on third. Instead, it was 1st and 2nd - and a bad pitch later, the bases are cleared.

As far as I am concerned, I was glad Crede made that play. Should he really have expected Uribe to be there - I mean Uribe was going to his right which is never easy. Crede, should have dove for that ball, and he did. To try to snag it with his bare hand was an attempt to stop it from going in the outfield. He did his job.

chisox06
04-18-2005, 06:06 PM
That's a bad argument. So you expect Crede to hit .300 because he is unproven and you criticize him for it yet defend Paulie and Dye because they are proven hitters? The point is that it's mid april and there has not been enough at-bats for anyone to prove themselves. Give Crede a chance. He's had 41 at-bats.

I would love to see Crede hit .300. The only way you can objectively judge a players ability is on what they've done in the past. Im not talking stritctly this season and thats my point, Paulie and the others have had good offensive seasons in the past, Crede hasn't, and I assure you I hope he proves me wrong. Rowand was in the same category with a lot of posters here, and he proved us wrong, Crede's been our 3rd baseman for a while and hasn't proved yet he can make all of this wonderful offensive potential come true. Here's to hoping he has a great offensive year, a better hitting Crede means a better hitting Sox team.

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 06:15 PM
Apparently this portion of your post does not appear on some posters' screens. You should look into that.

While the Crede bashing has been over the top the last few weeks, I can't think of a single player on the 25-man roster who is less deserving of a legion of defenders. I'd be thrilled if Crede had an "average bat," but it's his job to prove it ASAP. He's quickly running out of chances.

Where's ma_deuce's .sig when you need it?

I knew I could count on maurice to be the source of reason. Apparently "proven MLB players" WAS indeed left out of No 2's, Taylor St. and all the Crede's crew supporters view of my thread. The first thread was the crap of "I guess we should cut Konerko, Dye and Pierzinski too." :rolleyes:

Point of thread...KW NEEDS TO BE LOOKING FOR REPLACEMENTS...NOT COUNTING ON CREDE BREAKING OUT WITH A CAREER YEAR.

And the post of the thread goes to faneidde...who said it is a MAJOR "stretch" to call Crede a defensive specialist.
Quit reading the scouting reports on him about his defense and watch the games. His arm of decent strength is not that accurate, he can't charge bunts with any success and his glove is a tad above average. Nothing special.

After reading this thread, it seems Steve Phillips is a better talent evaluator than some.

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 06:15 PM
Oh yeah...and I think anyone that compares Crede's baseball numbers to the same time of Adrian Beltre should be drawn and quartered.

balke
04-18-2005, 06:22 PM
I knew I could count on maurice to be the source of reason. Apparently "proven MLB players" WAS indeed left out of No 2's, Taylor St. and all the Crede's crew supporters view of my thread. The first thread was the crap of "I guess we should cut Konerko, Dye and Pierzinski too." :rolleyes:

Point of thread...KW NEEDS TO BE LOOKING FOR REPLACEMENTS...NOT COUNTING ON CREDE BREAKING OUT WITH A CAREER YEAR.

And the post of the thread goes to faneidde...who said it is a MAJOR "stretch" to call Crede a defensive specialist.
Quit reading the scouting reports on him about his defense and watch the games. His arm of decent strength is not that accurate, he can't charge bunts with any success and his glove is a tad above average. Nothing special.

After reading this thread, it seems Steve Phillips is a better talent evaluator than some.


Who says KW and Co. AREN'T looking for a replacement? Have you talked to him recently? I can't think of anyone coming here that would be an attainable replacement that makes sense and isn't too costly to our team. He's fine until further notice, and regardless of track record, he's hitting better than half the team. He kept the 9th inning alive yesterday w/ a hit (Replay is on now if you'd like to double check).

The error you people point out wasn't an error. The talk is ridiculous this early in the season. You don't know that Kenny isn't looking. I don't know that they need to be looking. I'm more worried about the log jam in RF when Frank comes back.

Edit: I'm a little worried about the Bullpen holding up in key situations too. Hopefully that won't be a big deal though.

TaylorStSox
04-18-2005, 06:28 PM
I knew I could count on maurice to be the source of reason. Apparently "proven MLB players" WAS indeed left out of No 2's, Taylor St. and all the Crede's crew supporters view of my thread. The first thread was the crap of "I guess we should cut Konerko, Dye and Pierzinski too." :rolleyes:

Point of thread...KW NEEDS TO BE LOOKING FOR REPLACEMENTS...NOT COUNTING ON CREDE BREAKING OUT WITH A CAREER YEAR.

And the post of the thread goes to faneidde...who said it is a MAJOR "stretch" to call Crede a defensive specialist.
Quit reading the scouting reports on him about his defense and watch the games. His arm of decent strength is not that accurate, he can't charge bunts with any success and his glove is a tad above average. Nothing special.

After reading this thread, it seems Steve Phillips is a better talent evaluator than some.

Where are the examples of him "not charging bunts well." His arm's only "decent?"

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 06:32 PM
Who says KW and Co. AREN'T looking for a replacement? Have you talked to him recently? I can't think of anyone coming here that would be an attainable replacement that makes sense and isn't too costly to our team. He's fine until further notice, and regardless of track record, he's hitting better than half the team. He kept the 9th inning alive yesterday w/ a hit (Replay is on now if you'd like to double check).

The error you people point out wasn't an error. The talk is ridiculous this early in the season. You don't know that Kenny isn't looking. I don't know that they need to be looking. I'm more worried about the log jam in RF when Frank comes back.

Edit: I'm a little worried about the Bullpen holding up in key situations too. Hopefully that won't be a big deal though.

Yeah, I mean this season is the only season where Crede hasn't proved he can't hit. He has a great resume.

No, I have't talked to KW...I go by what I read in the paper. And I see Ozzie and KW spewing off BS rhetoric about how Crede is ready to break out. This is year 3 of the "breakout" plan...yet has hasn't improved at all...he actually REGRESSED.

You say I shouldn't talk about Crede b/c its so early in the season, but you are giving examples that he is "hitting better than half the team" and how he kept the 9th inning alive. Those are some big sample sizes, I take everything back. :rolleyes:

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 06:34 PM
Where are the examples of him "not charging bunts well." His arm's only "decent?"

Purely subjective watching almost every White Sox games.

I am not a scout and don't claim it to be, but I am not blinded by rose colored glasses and see Crede as anything more than adaquate. Anyone can think what they want, but he isn't a defensive "specialist."

maurice
04-18-2005, 06:37 PM
And the post of the thread goes to faneidde...who said it is a MAJOR "stretch" to call Crede a defensive specialist.

And, on a related note:
The key to improving the line up is always to seek ways to upgrade the hitting at the positions where the current everyday player is eighth or ninth best on the team. The only exception to this is catcher where glovework counts more than batwork.

Both catchers on a 25-man roster often are defensive specialists. One starting middle IF may, under certain circumstances, be a defensive specialist. A bench player might be a defensive specialist. But there is no reasonable basis for calling a starting corner IF a defensive specialist. That's just FOJC code for "above-average defensive player with an inadequate bat."

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 06:40 PM
Indeed.

I was trying to prove a point..but Crede's arm strength is better than average...I said just "decent." Just to clarify b/c I don't know why I was thinking about something else.

balke
04-18-2005, 06:40 PM
Yeah, I mean this season is the only season where Crede hasn't proved he can't hit. He has a great resume.

No, I have't talked to KW...I go by what I read in the paper. And I see Ozzie and KW spewing off BS rhetoric about how Crede is ready to break out. This is year 3 of the "breakout" plan...yet has hasn't improved at all...he actually REGRESSED.

You say I shouldn't talk about Crede b/c its so early in the season, but you are giving examples that he is "hitting better than half the team" and how he kept the 9th inning alive. Those are some big sample sizes, I take everything back. :rolleyes:




Whatever, you're hopeless and a great GM. Tonight Uribe will botch a double play, and someone will start a chickenlittle thread about our infield being worthless. At least you admit its not a good sample size, maybe you should look into what PK did in 2003 and his turn around in 2004.

We're stuck with Crede, and whining about it won't make him go away. We probably will get stuck with a Royce Clayton substitute if he does go, and we'll over pay them greatly. I gotta get to the stadium. Go JOE!

maurice
04-18-2005, 06:42 PM
maybe you should look into what PK did in 2003 and his turn around in 2004.

Worst analogy ever.

Foulke29
04-18-2005, 06:50 PM
Oh yeah...and I think anyone that compares Crede's baseball numbers to the same time of Adrian Beltre should be drawn and quartered.

Anyone that uses the phrase drawn and quartered is a dork. Oh yeah, pop quiz cheesestick - who's two splits are these?

2001 .265 .310 .411
2002 .257 .303 .426 Beltre - age 22-25
2003 .240 .290 .424
2004 . 334 .388 .629 (48 HR/121 RBI/200 Hits)

2002 .285 .311 .515
2003 .261 .308 .433 Crede - age 24-26
2004 .239 .299 .418

Yeah - these two players are not even close in their offensive production. Any moron can see that!

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 06:54 PM
Whatever, you're hopeless and a great GM. Tonight Uribe will botch a double play, and someone will start a chickenlittle thread about our infield being worthless. At least you admit its not a good sample size, maybe you should look into what PK did in 2003 and his turn around in 2004.



1. Didn't know you were :cleo...but since you can see into the future...when exactly is Crede going to turn it around? I won't be starting a thread about Uribe...we know how good of a defender he is.

2. I wasn't talking about this seasons sample size, but Crede's, oh you know...last 800 at bats at the major league level.

3. I heard PK was a minor league player of the year...but more importantly, he proved he can hit in 2000, 2001, 2002, so that is indeed the worst analogy ever.


EDIT...Make that 1050 MLB at bats, not 800.

FarWestChicago
04-18-2005, 06:58 PM
Worst analogy ever.
so that is indeed the worst analogy ever.Exaggerating just a little bit there, fellas. :rolleyes:

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 07:01 PM
Anyone that uses the phrase drawn and quartered is a dork. Oh yeah, pop quiz cheesestick - who's two splits are these?

2001 .265 .310 .411
2002 .257 .303 .426 Beltre - age 22-25
2003 .240 .290 .424
2004 . 334 .388 .629 (48 HR/121 RBI/200 Hits)

2002 .285 .311 .515
2003 .261 .308 .433 Crede - age 24-26
2004 .239 .299 .418

Yeah - these two players are not even close in their offensive production. Any moron can see that!

I am still laughing that you thought I was a dork..yet used the word "cheesestick" as a derogatory term. That could be the biggest hypocritical statement of all time, and I am serious about that.

Ages don't mean anything in baseball...not that Crede being 27 and Beltre being 25 means much...not to mention Beltre was force fed by the Dodgers at 19 years old...hence the progression (and/or steriods). Crede had more than ample time to prove his worth in the minors...which he did to an extent...but had his big breakout season after REPEATING Charlotte.

Not to mention Beltre's situation is like one in a million...but I will just stick with the "rule" not with the "exception" OK, turkeyleg...

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 07:01 PM
Exaggerating just a little bit there, fellas. :rolleyes:

Hyperbole...a message boards best friend.:D:

Mohoney
04-18-2005, 07:16 PM
A "career year" for Crede is 260/23/85.

If I get 85 RBI from my #8 hitter for about $400,000, that's one of the better bargains in baseball.

What I'm worried about is when this guy gets a few years more service time and starts making millions. His numbers need to jump accordingly.

illinibk
04-18-2005, 07:22 PM
No, I have't talked to KW...I go by what I read in the paper. And I see Ozzie and KW spewing off BS rhetoric about how Crede is ready to break out. This is year 3 of the "breakout" plan...yet has hasn't improved at all...he actually REGRESSED.
What are they supposed to say publicly? Do you want them to say that Crede is worthless, needs to go, and they are actively searching for a replacement? *****. Not only would something like that kill any confidence that Crede might have, it would also let other GMs know how desperate the Sox are for a replacement.

But there is no reasonable basis for calling a starting corner IF a defensive specialist. That's just FOJC code for "above-average defensive player with an inadequate bat."
Since when has 3B become an offensive position? Historically, it is a defensive position. Sure, 11 of the 12 3B in the HOF were very good offensive players, and many were excellent denfisve players as well. But there is a reason they are in the HOF. It is because they did both hitting and fielding exceptionally well (whereas Brooks Robinson made it in solely for his glovework). Nobody is saying Crede is a HOFer. Not by a long shot. But to have these unrealistic expectations for a guy to have great offensive numbers (say .300/30/100) at the hot corner are unfounded. There are only a couple of those around at a time, and none of them come cheap (IIRC, most if not all make 10 times what Crede makes).

For all you people who want Crede gone, you are entitles to that opinion. But since you want him gone, who do you suggest replace him, and at what cost? He is servicable, and has shown some improvement this year over last (hard to think he could get worse, however). What, would you rather trade Harris for Wes Helms (as Bruce Levineline suggested), a guy who strikes out like it is going out of style, and does not field the ball particularlly well? Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. People around here complaining about the 3B position are beginning to sound like Cub fans did before they landed Ramirez.

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 07:32 PM
What are they supposed to say publicly? Do you want them to say that Crede is worthless, needs to go, and they are actively searching for a replacement? *****. Not only would something like that kill any confidence that Crede might have, it would also let other GMs know how desperate the Sox are for a replacement.


Reading is a skill-

First post in the thread-
Giving the kid confidence is great and everything...I just hope Ozzie and KW don't BELIEVE what they are saying. KW needs to be looking for a replacement and who is going to be available.


You think someone would read the first post in the thread, first.:rolleyes:

SoxWillWin
04-18-2005, 07:34 PM
Edit: What's becoming comical is people using every feeble excuse to bash their favorite whipping boy. If Crede had gotten off his butt he could have snagged Ichiro's and Ibanez' home runs in the first inning.

:worship::worship::worship::worship: Thank you. It appears to be the "in" thing to bash Crede. I can understand that we don't want the season falling apart, but it won't rise and fall based on Crede......for that matter it won't rise and fall based on Thomas, Konerko, Everett, Iguchi, Uribe, Harris, Podsednik, Pierzynski, Dye, or Rowand INDIVIDUALLY....... There's a reason this is a TEAM sport. If one persons not doing well the others pick him up. If the Sox win focus is directed towards how bad Crede did, If the Sox lose Crede is blamed. Makes no sense to me.

nodiggity59
04-18-2005, 07:37 PM
Simply put, he throws away at bats, never walks, and doesn't perform well in situational hitting (w/ the exception of a few 9th inning hits, most of the time he fails).

The same could be said for many of the players on the Sox, but they don't hit .240

Realist
04-18-2005, 07:41 PM
I betcha that in the history of baseball, there has never been a player torn apart more by the fans of his team while he was in the midst of an 8 game hitting streak.

Crede has dramatically changed his swing. It looks like it's starting to pay off with more consistency. The downside is that he probably isn't going to show as much power as he has in the past. I won't be surprised in the least if after tonite he has a 9 game hitting streak.

It seems to me that Crede always is a little slow out of the gate at the beginning of the season defensively, then he settles in and becomes one of the better fielding third basemen in the American League.

Look for the Crede haters to soon go the way of the Konerko and Garland haters. Let's all wave bye-bye to them as they fade into the sunset.

illinibk
04-18-2005, 07:45 PM
Reading is a skill-

Yes it is. Which is why I was amazed to read the whole thread, see you say confidence is great, but then complain about the "BS rhetoric" you read in the papers. Which is it then? You would like them to give Crede confidence, but tear him down publicly? How do you propose one go about doing that?

Whether they believe what they say is a different issue. I think any GM who doesn't at least have a back-up plan in mind (I'm not saying trades in the works, but at least a wish list so to speak) for any and all positions on the roster should be fired. Period.

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 07:47 PM
Let it also be said in this thread I am not a "hater" as he is on the Sox and I love all the Sox and root for them...

This was just a thread about the rhetoric that is getting old about Crede and his breakout campaign. I hope Crede proves me wrong.

illinibk
04-18-2005, 07:48 PM
Look for the Crede haters to soon go the way of the Konerko ... haters. Let's all wave bye-bye to them as they fade into the sunset.
Nope. I'm still here. I don't know if I will ever come back around on Konerko, even after the great year he has last season. But that is a different rant for a different thread.

SoxxoS
04-18-2005, 07:51 PM
Yes it is. Which is why I was amazed to read the whole thread, see you say confidence is great, but then complain about the "BS rhetoric" you read in the papers. Which is it then? You would like them to give Crede confidence, but tear him down publicly? How do you propose one go about doing that?

Whether they believe what they say is a different issue. I think any GM who doesn't at least have a back-up plan in mind (I'm not saying trades in the works, but at least a wish list so to speak) for any and all positions on the roster should be fired. Period.

How about neither on the public statements. Just let him prove to us that he will have this breakout year.

I am concered that KW and Ozzie aren't going to have a backup plan b/c they truely believe about the breakout year...thats all.

A. Cavatica
04-18-2005, 07:55 PM
Crede will be gone if/when KW finds a way to improve the position. KW is nothing if not aggressive. Unfortunately, Josh Fields is not ready and there has to be a reason Ozuna never earned a starting job.

Let's hope that "aggressive" doesn't mean dealing for Wes Helms, or giving up B-Mac, Sweeney, or Anderson for three months of somebody better.

illinibk
04-18-2005, 08:08 PM
How about neither on the public statements. Just let him prove to us that he will have this breakout year.

I am concered that KW and Ozzie aren't going to have a backup plan b/c they truely believe about the breakout year...thats all.
The "Crede will come around" talk from the Sox has become excessive to say the least. And I can agree that I would like to see the end of it, and let Crede ultimately prove whether he can get the job done. I think the continues rhetoric probably turns more people against Joe for one reason or another. I can understand your concern about KW and Ozzie believing that Crede will have a breakout year, because if they didn't he would be gone by now. But I have to believe that at least Kenny has a backup plan. KW might be dumb, but he isn't that dumb...I hope.

RKMeibalane
04-18-2005, 08:28 PM
Since when has 3B become an offensive position? Historically, it is a defensive position. Sure, 11 of the 12 3B in the HOF were very good offensive players, and many were excellent denfisve players as well.

I don't completely agree with your line of reasoning. The formula I always heard from coaches was that teams had "power at the corners, and speed up the middle." That means third base needs to be a position where a large percentage of the team's offense is coming from. For the most part, the White Sox teams of the recent past fit the formula fairly closely, with Frank Thomas and Paul Konerko at first base, Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee at the corner outfield spots, and also with Robin Ventura at third in the 90's.

Crede will never be Mike Schmidt. He won't even be Robin Ventura, but that doesn't mean the Sox can't expect adequate production from him. Right now, Crede is on pace to end up with twenty six runs batted in. That's not exactly what most people want to see out of him, regardless of where he's hitting in the lineup. Just because he's a number-eight hitter doesn't mean that he needs to stay there. Magglio Ordonez hit in the number seven spot when he first came up. Obviously, he didn't stay there. Though he may be headed back there with Detroit. :cool:

RKMeibalane
04-18-2005, 08:31 PM
How about neither on the public statements. Just let him prove to us that he will have this breakout year.

I am concered that KW and Ozzie aren't going to have a backup plan b/c they truely believe about the breakout year...thats all.

To be fair, I think part of the reason they're saying those things is give Crede confidence. If KW came out and said, "We're trying to trade for Eric Chavez," it stands to reason that Crede would begin looking over his shoulder even more than he already is. I agree that Joe's time is running out, but at this point, the Sox need to try to salvage something from him. If he's still sucking by the 'break, I would be more than happy to see his sorry rear end shipped out of town.

SOX ADDICT '73
04-18-2005, 08:37 PM
Nope. I'm still here. I don't know if I will ever come back around on Konerko, even after the great year he has last season. But that is a different rant for a different thread.
The Major League home run leader says, "Have a drink on me."

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2636

voodoochile
04-18-2005, 08:47 PM
Just saved the team a run or two this game alone with that nifty DP he started and that double down the line he just snuffed to keep the score knotted at 1.

Of course he isn't really a good defensive 3B right?:rolleyes:

SOX ADDICT '73
04-18-2005, 09:01 PM
Can it be? Am I actually looking forward to a Crede at-bat next inning?:thud:

EDIT: Ah, well...

Alanzo XXXVIII
04-18-2005, 09:49 PM
CREDE RULES. CRUCIAL 2-RUN HOMER.

How many games is that now?

Daver
04-18-2005, 09:50 PM
This thread is ridiculous.