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BRDSR
04-17-2005, 07:35 PM
This is not a Fire Ozzie! thread. I think that the bulk of a managers value is not between the lines. It's in the clubhouse. It's setting a tone. It's keeping starting pitchers healthy.

That said, in one season and 12 games, I've not been overly impressed with Ozzie's managing between the lines. Today is a case in point. According to Ozzie's post-game interview, Willie Harris attempted to steal on his own. He was not told to go, but he thought he could get a good jump and swipe the base, putting him in scoring position with a singles hitter up. Good thought process. The only problem was, there is no chance in hell, barring a miscue by the Mariners, that Harris steals that base even with his absolute best effort. He got a great jump, ran just as fast as he could, and still got thrown out. Thats because Eddie Guardado has a good move to first, he has a quick slide step, he throws the ball in or near the strike zone, and Olivo has an above average throwing arm(duh, he was on OUR team). The circumstances were conspiring against a stolen base in that situation, and it is Ozzie's responsibility to know that, not Harris'. I applaud Harris' attempt and I think 4 out of 5 times it would have turned out differently, but not in this particular situation. Harris should have been given a red light and Ozzie didn't do it.

This is just one rather recent and obvious example. I like Ozzie's generally hands off approach and I like his demeanor and what he brings to the clubhouse, but with the tying run on first and the winning run at the plate and two out in the bottom of the ninth, I want a manager who micro-manages, not one who sits back and lets things be. In my book, Ozzie has the makings of a great manager but this is one area he could improve a great deal in.

Daver
04-17-2005, 07:37 PM
:fireozzie:

fusillirob1983
04-17-2005, 07:47 PM
I wasn following the final inning online today, and when I saw that Willie Harris was pinch running, the first thought that crossed my mind was that he was probably going to try to run on Olivo and that would end the game.

Some may say I'm being pessimistic, but I know that he's not going to score from first base on a single, so you had to figure he'd try and steal, and just like BRDSR mentioned, we know Olivo's got a good arm since he was on our team last year.

Let's come back and get the Twins tomorrow.

C-Dawg
04-17-2005, 07:54 PM
Thats because Eddie Guardado has a good move to first.

Interesting, the Hawk said Guardado does not have a good move to first.... Unless I misunderstood him.

But, yeah, like the other post says, let's get the Twins!

Kadafi311
04-17-2005, 09:06 PM
"That's OK if he thought he could make it," manager Ozzie Guillen said of Harris' decision to steal. "He has the green light from us. That is the way we play, that's our game."

You're not going to win them all. The kid made a decision, and unfortunately for us, it was a bad one. Another series victory, bring on the Twinkies.

:gulp:

VivaOzzie
04-17-2005, 09:08 PM
:fireozzie:

boo

WhiteSox16K
04-17-2005, 09:15 PM
Dave Roberts did it in game 4 of the ALCS last year in a much bigger situation, and everybody seemed to have an idea that he was going. I don't see a problem with being aggressive. Aggressive moves can win games, and in Willie's case, can lose games. It's unfortunate, this time, that we have to put up with the latter though.

Fake Chet Lemon
04-17-2005, 09:28 PM
Viva Ozzie! Stay aggressive Oz, you are the man for us. Ozzie-Ball 24/7/365.

Banix12
04-17-2005, 09:44 PM
Ozzie may not be the greatest when it comes to strategy, though I think he is still above average. However I think where Ozzie's major value lies is in his public relations value. Newswriters tend to like him cause he's always good for a quote, he's always fan friendly, and unlike a lot of managers he always seems to find ways to have fun.

Compare that to the PR disaster of a manager up on the Northside, where the only time he makes the papers is when he's berating the media, making up cheap excuses for his team (the great classic being blaming the heat in august for their lousy play, despite it being the coldest august on record last season), or talking about injured pitchers.

Irishsox1
04-17-2005, 09:59 PM
Willie Harris has shown time after time that he is fast, but at the same time one of the worst base stealers ever. I was at the game and he got a terrible jump, but it still took a great throw by Olivo to nail him. The bad call against Crazy Carl pissed me off a lot me. How that ump blew that call is beyond me.

DickAllen72
04-17-2005, 10:01 PM
However I think where Ozzie's major value lies is in his public relations value. Newswriters tend to like him cause he's always good for a quote, he's always fan friendly, and unlike a lot of managers he always seems to find ways to have fun.


I understand what you are saying and I agree up to a point, but sometimes I think he gets into trouble saying things off the top of his head. For instance check out this quote from today: http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050417&content_id=1019477&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws Guillen addressed the attitude adjustment during his pregame talk, and after answering questions about Frank Thomas' future role in this new alignment, briefly pointed to Thomas as "a big part of the bad attitude" from the past because he was team leader. The White Sox manager quickly backpedaled and mentioned that the other players who have been with the team for a few years also were part of the issue, and ultimately said that he should take the blame for the problem.

I'll bet Joe Cowley is going to take this out of context and blow this one up way out of proportion and cause a big Ozzie/Frank controversy. These things can't be good for the White Sox.

iftypofixit
04-17-2005, 11:20 PM
boo

I think he forgot the teal....

http://www.aquagardendesigns.com/images/fireoz_teal.jpg

fusillirob1983
04-18-2005, 12:00 AM
I'll bet Joe Cowley is going to take this out of context and blow this one up way out of proportion and cause a big Ozzie/Frank controversy. These things can't be good for the White Sox.


Rick Morrisey already did. There's a link in another thread.

VivaOzzie
04-18-2005, 01:14 AM
I think he forgot the teal....

http://www.aquagardendesigns.com/images/fireoz_teal.jpg

Thanks! That looks much better!! :D:

BRDSR
04-18-2005, 01:16 AM
Interesting, the Hawk said Guardado does not have a good move to first.... Unless I misunderstood him.


I don't know what move Hawk was watching but the one I saw was quick and contained no unnecessary movement. Thats a good pick off move in my book. Willie was sure scrambling back to make it in time

Willie Harris has shown time after time that he is fast, but at the same time one of the worst base stealers ever. I was at the game and he got a terrible jump, but it still took a great throw by Olivo to nail him. The bad call against Crazy Carl pissed me off a lot me. How that ump blew that call is beyond me.


I was at the game too, in section 103, probably the best section to watch a base stealer and his jump was good, especially off a lefty. I maintain that it was an impossible situation to steal second base and Ozzie should have known that Willie is not the smartest baserunner and given him the red light. I would be very surprised to see Scott Podsednik try to steal that base and we all know he's a better base stealer than Willie.

HebrewHammer
04-18-2005, 01:21 AM
Love Ozzie or hate him, he gets his team focused and ready to start the season.

Unlike some managers...

:jerry
"zzzzZzzzz....wha...huh? Why are you looking at me?"

BRDSR
04-18-2005, 01:26 AM
Love Ozzie or hate him, he gets his team focused and ready to start the season.

Unlike some managers...

:jerry
"zzzzZzzzz....wha...huh? Why are you looking at me?"

I definitely don't hate him. If nothing else(and there is more) he gives this team an attitude and an edge that they never had under that man's reign. Just pointing out one area I think he could do better. Maybe he reads WSI and will take my advice. :wink:

JRIG
04-18-2005, 06:14 AM
I'll bet Joe Cowley is going to take this out of context and blow this one up way out of proportion and cause a big Ozzie/Frank controversy. These things can't be good for the White Sox.

Is it possible to do this (blow it out of proportion)? I mean, this is basically the playbook from the Cubs slam-job on Sammy this past offseason. Take a player, say he's part of the problem, attempt to turn public opinion on him.

:KW
"This will make things easier when I buy Frank out at the end of the season...3 years too late, of course."

I don't know why this happens, but KW and now Ozzie are establishing a pattern of running down the greatest player in White Sox history. It doesn't make any sense.

Sure, Ozzie backpedaled, but the damage is done. If you don't want media trolls, don't give them fodder for their columns. You know the usual suspects were salivating as soon as the words came out of Ozzie's mouth.

infohawk
04-18-2005, 08:59 AM
When we lose a series, and we will lose a series, several people are going to have a meltdown and begin calling for people's heads. :rolleyes:

Flight #24
04-18-2005, 09:24 AM
I understand what you are saying and I agree up to a point, but sometimes I think he gets into trouble saying things off the top of his head. For instance check out this quote from today:

I'll bet Joe Cowley is going to take this out of context and blow this one up way out of proportion and cause a big Ozzie/Frank controversy. These things can't be good for the White Sox.

If you actually read the whole article, there are numerous comments about how "the whole team had a bad attitude", and even naming Buehrle, Konerko, Garland, Crede.

Reading the article in the Trib, you could create a sensationalist headline that actually portrayed the tenor of Ozzie's comments, something like "Ozzie on Frank: Horrible attitude" with a subheadline of: "whole team had bad attitude", or even "Buehrle, Konerko, Garland, Crede also named". Instead, they choose to put only the Frank-related comments on the front page, and relegate what appears to be Ozzie's meaning to the interior.

IMO, Ozzie was a bit PO'd about Frank's comments about someone else sitting when he comes back, and possibly even worried about guys looking over their shoulder, so he says something. And in typical Ozzie style, it comes out over the top. Then in typical local Mediot style, the negative portion gets blown up.

If you think this is a conspiracy against Frank, ask yourself this: on Saturday would you have said Ozzie was a shill/puppet for the organization? I wouldn't have said so, so I don't buy that this is a part of a rip job on Frank by the Sox.

LVSoxFan
04-18-2005, 09:40 AM
I'm not worried about Frank having a meltdown; Ozzie called him out when he took over and the press was going into seizures--they were hugging and laughing the first day of spring training.

Frank's gotta know that Ozzie's in control here and I can't imagine he would react negatively or start copping an attitude. He was quite the team player last year before he got hurt.

Anybody else think that Ozzie's maybe getting a little frustrated with Frank's recovery time? Just a thought...

Lip Man 1
04-18-2005, 11:30 AM
I didn't see Ozzie's comments on Frank coming. To me I didn't think what Frank said was inflammitory. I state this with the caveat that I didn't hear Frank's comments, I read them. I have no idea about the vocal quality of them...he could have been sarcastic, angry etc... but I just don't think that was the case.

Given those comments coming out of nowhere and given the point Ozzie made about having to find a place to play for everyone, 'conspiracy people' could interpet this as another clue that this is Frank's last season on the South Side. Only time will tell.

Lip

Flight #24
04-18-2005, 11:32 AM
I didn't see Ozzie's comments on Frank coming. To me I didn't think what Frank said was inflammitory. I state this with the caveat that I didn't hear Frank's comments, I read them. I have no idea about the vocal quality of them...he could have been sarcastic, angry etc... but I just don't think that was the case.

Given those comments coming out of nowhere and given the point Ozzie made about having to find a place to play for everyone, 'conspiracy people' could interpet this as another clue that this is Frank's last season on the South Side. Only time will tell.

Lip

FWIW - Bruce LevineLine was on ESPN1000 and said that he took the comments more as Ozzie saying the whole team had a bad attitude and that's what was turning around, not that Frank was a problem.

Of course, that's not what you'd get from reading any of the local rags. IIRC, the ST didn't even mention that he also named Buehrle, Konerko, etc - just that he named Frank. "Fair and balanced"

Lip Man 1
04-18-2005, 12:22 PM
Actually in the newspaper stories that I read they did include Ozzie's comments about Mark, Konerko and so on for example this is from one of the Sun-Times columnist:

Guillen went on to say Thomas' attitude was "horrible'' in the past, though he did add, "Everybody's was.'' He also dropped the names of Paul Konerko, Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland and others, which blunts the blow a bit.

Lip

Flight #24
04-18-2005, 12:29 PM
Actually in the newspaper stories that I read they did include Ozzie's comments about Mark, Konerko and so on for example this is from one of the Sun-Times columnist:

Guillen went on to say Thomas' attitude was "horrible'' in the past, though he did add, "Everybody's was.'' He also dropped the names of Paul Konerko, Mark Buehrle, Jon Garland and others, which blunts the blow a bit.

Lip

That was in Moronotti's piece. The actual "news" column reporting this just had his comments on Frank. The only quotes used there were:



"It will be good to have him here because he'll see the winning attitude we have now,'' Guillen said Sunday. ''He was part of the bad attitude before. Frankly, he was a big part of the bad attitude. ''Now, he can see how we're handling stuff, why we're not whining every day, why we hit after day games and everybody is happy. I want Frank to be part of this thing.''

The key part of his entire "speech" IMO was this (from the trib - albiet buried on p.6): "All those guys [are part of it], because when you see something wrong, say it. Talk, don't go hide it like a [child].


It's not that Frank was a problem, it's that he (along with others) wasn't calling other guys out. That fits with his image as not being a vocal leader, but it's a HUGE step from being the cancer that the ST article would have you believe.

Ol' No. 2
04-18-2005, 12:38 PM
That was in Moronotti's piece. The actual "news" column reporting this just had his comments on Frank. The only quotes used there were:


The key part of his entire "speech" IMO was this (from the trib - albiet buried on p.6):

It's not that Frank was a problem, it's that he (along with others) wasn't calling other guys out. That fits with his image as not being a vocal leader, but it's a HUGE step from being the cancer that the ST article would have you believe.If there's one thing the Moron's good at, it's stirring up a...

http://www.tempestinateapot.net/Graphics/logo.gif

Flight #24
04-18-2005, 12:42 PM
If there's one thing the Moron's good at, it's stirring up a...



I interpret Ozzie's comments as further slams on Lee & Maggs. As the "team leader", Frank didn't call them out when Maggs was focused on his contract and Carlos was doing whatever it was that Carlos did. Ozzie attributes more of the responsibility to do that to Frank because of his status.

That and he's trying not to a)have anyone think Frank's going to get entitlement ABs and b)doesn't want anyone looking over their shoulder and possibly pressing or ending up working against the team in order to try and stay in the lineup.

Kadafi311
04-18-2005, 01:12 PM
''He was part of the bad attitude before. Frankly, he was a big part of the bad attitude." - Ozzie

I think this is just another case of the media blowing things out of proportion because of the way it sounds on paper.

I read this as Ozzie simply saying it was a scenario where Frank was associated with the bad attitude because he was the star player on a team with an overall bad attitude. Not that Frank was the source of the bad attitude.

JOEJACKSON
04-19-2005, 01:15 PM
We Have Not Won A World Series Since 1917.being A Sox Fan Is About Loving This Team And What The South Side Of Chicago Has Meant To Millions Of People For Over 100 Years. We Have Had Better Mangers And We Have Had Worse And We Will Continue To Second Guess Each Move They Make. We All Want Our White Sox To Win A World Series In Our Life Time But Ozzie Is Not The Problem.the Guy Played Here He Was A Third Base Coach On A World Series Champion Team He Wants This As Bad As All Of Us.

I Respect Your Opinion But Lets Remember Win Or Loose We Are Always Going To Love The Sox If You Or I Were The Owner Then Maybe We Would Do Things Are Way.

Relax Enjoy The Season

Remove The Curse Put Shoeless In The Hall Of Hame.

HebrewHammer
04-19-2005, 01:20 PM
Remove The Curse Put Shoeless In The Hall Of Hame.

Curses are for ScRub fans and morons. We don't have any here.

I completely agree that Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall of Fame, he's served his sentance.