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View Full Version : The Duke should not have come back out in the 6th


HawkISox
04-15-2005, 01:57 PM
Ozzie seems to struggle with pitching changes the most. El Duque was off, it was pretty clear, yet sent him back out in the 6th.

Kadafi311
04-15-2005, 02:08 PM
Ozzie seems to struggle with pitching changes the most. El Duque was off, it was pretty clear, yet sent him back out in the 6th.

Ozzie has stated in the past that he likes to give his pitchers an opportunity to earn a victory. Unfortunately, every now and again, they're going to earn a defeat. Not to mention the fact that you don't want to burn up the bullpen early in the season.

In other words...
:threadblows:

mealfred13
04-15-2005, 02:09 PM
Ozzie seems to struggle with pitching changes the most. El Duque was off, it was pretty clear, yet sent him back out in the 6th.

It might be a little case of trying to force the team to do what we've expected them to do, as far as having the pitchers go deep into games and leaving the bullpen to work no more than 2 or 3 innings. Ozzie needs to stop getting stuck in these kinds of ideas. At least as far as the closing situation went, he seems to have gotten off the whole "Shingo is my closer and he'll close every game" mentality, which is a good sign.

After last night, I don't think Ozzie will be leaving starters in that long when they're throwing the game away and having obvious control problems like El Duque was. Hopefully he's as quick a learner as he was after the Shingo blown save when it comes to the starting pitching. In fact, that goes for starting Everett in the field, too. We could have won that game yesterday with a little tweaking of the defense and better management of the starter and bullpen.

mealfred13
04-15-2005, 02:12 PM
Ozzie has stated in the past that he likes to give his pitchers an opportunity to earn a victory. Unfortunately, every now and again, they're going to earn a defeat. Not to mention the fact that you don't want to burn up the bullpen early in the season.

In other words... <this thread blows image>

Just because he likes to give his pitchers a chance to earn the victory doesn't void his obligations to recognize when a pitcher doesn't have it and should be removed from the game before further damage is done. It's one thing to pull a Jerry Manuel and yank the guy out after he gives up his first ER, e.g. Jon Garland, but it's another thing to leave a guy in there when he's walking people left and right and can't find the plate.

Giving the pitchers a chance to earn a win is one thing, but giving the opposition a chance to crush a pitcher who obviously is having a bad day is inexcuseable.

Ol' No. 2
04-15-2005, 02:15 PM
Holy crap. How many runs did Hernandez give up in the 6th? He walked ONE BATTER and then got pulled. Jeez.

Kadafi311
04-15-2005, 02:22 PM
Just because he likes to give his pitchers a chance to earn the victory doesn't void his obligations to recognize when a pitcher doesn't have it and should be removed from the game before further damage is done. It's one thing to pull a Jerry Manuel and yank the guy out after he gives up his first ER, e.g. Jon Garland, but it's another thing to leave a guy in there when he's walking people left and right and can't find the plate.

Giving the pitchers a chance to earn a win is one thing, but giving the opposition a chance to crush a pitcher who obviously is having a bad day is inexcuseable.

I'm not saying he should ignore all of the signs of needing to remove a pitcher just for the sake of him getting his innings in... I'm saying the signs weren't there. There was no indication that Hernandez was about to get crushed (and he didn't get crushed!). Up to that point he had only given up 2 earned runs and his pitch count was manageable.

Yes he was having control problems, but he kept his team in the game. That's all you can ask of your starting pitching. This is pointless Ozzie bashing with zero substance in my book.

mealfred13
04-15-2005, 02:37 PM
I'm not saying he should ignore all of the signs of needing to remove a pitcher just for the sake of him getting his innings in... I'm saying the signs weren't there. There was no indication that Hernandez was about to get crushed (and he didn't get crushed!). Up to that point he had only given up 2 earned runs and his pitch count was manageable.

Yes he was having control problems, but he kept his team in the game. That's all you can ask of your starting pitching. This is pointless Ozzie bashing with zero substance in my book.

I see your point. I didn't mean to imply that he got crushed, but from what I saw of him, he was an accident waiting to happen. Really though, the situation would have been alot different if not for the questionable defensive positioning, especially having Carl out in the field.

Ol' No. 2
04-15-2005, 02:39 PM
It will no doubt come as a surprise to many people, but not every loss is due to managerial incompetance or because somebody sucks. There is another team out there, and they're all professionals, too. So far, no team has come close to 162-0.

balke
04-15-2005, 02:40 PM
There was no need to burn out the pen before the Seattle series. It was time for Duque to come out, but only if this was an important game. I think he was trying to save some arms in the pen. That move didn't lose us the game. We were lucky it was that close.

santo=dorf
04-15-2005, 03:05 PM
Holy crap. How many runs did Hernandez give up in the 6th? He walked ONE BATTER and then got pulled. Jeez.

Preach it!

They mentioned El Duque's record pitching 6+ innings and it was something like 56-21.

Fake Chet Lemon
04-15-2005, 04:07 PM
Garland go that big double play to end the 6th against the Twins. I'm sure if a double was hit instead, an Ozzie sucks Thread would have been started.

SOX ADDICT '73
04-15-2005, 04:19 PM
If hindsight is always 20/20 like everyone says, you really ought to be arguing that El Duque should have stayed IN the game!

Hernandez had been getting into and, more importantly, out of trouble all night long. Who's to say he wouldn't have induced a double play grounder on his next pitch? I also think he was due for some strikeouts (only 1 in 5+ IP). In any case, he couldn't have done any worse than Cotts. I guess we'll never know...