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BRDSR
04-11-2005, 12:56 AM
The Postgame thread is full of people blaming Crede for because he botched one play in the field that resulted in a three run homer later in the inning. I want to take a look at some other key moments in this ballgame that contributed(heavily) to the loss as well.

Top 1st-White Sox get their first two men aboard and they're on second and third with nobody out. Instead of putting together a nice inning and scoring both(which is what small ball teams do), they score only one and let the Twins out of the inning without much damage. Paulie couldn't get the flyball deep enough(or Iguchi didn't get a good enough break) and we only get one in.

Bottom 3rd-Mark Buerhle doesn't pitch Torii Hunter correctly. When the count goes 3-0 on a quality hitter that doesn't allow pitchers to make many mistakes, don't pitch to him with a 3-0 count. Nibble. Throw high and way out of zone. Concede the walk. With two outs you can afford a man on base because they still need a hit to score. I have enough confidence(and Mark Buerhle should too) that he can get Lew Ford out with two outs and men in scoring position. Serving up a fat one to Hunter is not the answer. No way he should get a pitch to hit after going 3-0 on him.

Top 7th-Crede leads off the inning with a double and cannot be brought home. Again, not how small ball teams are going to win games. Juan Uribe fails to move him to third(strikes out) Ozuna fails to move him to third(strikes out) and Iguchi grounds out. First rule of small ball: leadoff doubles must score. Sox blow an easy chance to gain some momentum back.

All Tops of Innings Except the First-The White Sox struck out at least once in every inning except the first. They didn't put the ball in play and when the defense only has to make 13 outs in a game, they'd really have to give it away to lose. Again, not the way to play small ball.

I usually reserve this word for Cubs fans, but it is downright ignorant for a White Sox fan to say that Joe Crede cost us the game tonight. He contributed to the loss, he made a poor play in the third, and he's sure no Alex Rodriguez in the field or at the plate. Those are fair. To say that he's the sole cause of the loss is preposterous. No player can be said to have played their best game tonight, and a series of mental errors and physical errors cost us the game.

Besides that, the Twins played good baseball. This shouldn't be a surprise; they're a good baseball team. Santana pitched great, struck out 14, and in general had our players off balance the whole game. Their offense took advantage of the pitching mistakes which can be summed up by Hunter taking a Buerhle mistake out of the yard. Definitely a game changer there. Their bullpen held on to the win.

I guess with this post I've made it my personal crusade to be Crede's cheerleader, but I'm tired of him being the scapegoat of this team(this 4-2, division leading team, I might add). He's been hitting the ball hard and has played overall good defense. He's not great but he didn't lose this one for us. Now lets take 2 out of 3 from Cleveland.

D. TODD
04-11-2005, 01:01 AM
The Postgame thread is full of people blaming Crede for because he botched one play in the field that resulted in a three run homer later in the inning. I want to take a look at some other key moments in this ballgame that contributed(heavily) to the loss as well.

Top 1st-White Sox get their first two men aboard and they're on second and third with nobody out. Instead of putting together a nice inning and scoring both(which is what small ball teams do), they score only one and let the Twins out of the inning without much damage. Paulie couldn't get the flyball deep enough(or Iguchi didn't get a good enough break) and we only get one in.

Bottom 3rd-Mark Buerhle doesn't pitch Torii Hunter correctly. When the count goes 3-0 on a quality hitter that doesn't allow pitchers to make many mistakes, don't pitch to him with a 3-0 count. Nibble. Throw high and way out of zone. Concede the walk. With two outs you can afford a man on base because they still need a hit to score. I have enough confidence(and Mark Buerhle should too) that he can get Lew Ford out with two outs and men in scoring position. Serving up a fat one to Hunter is not the answer. No way he should get a pitch to hit after going 3-0 on him.

Top 7th-Crede leads off the inning with a double and cannot be brought home. Again, not how small ball teams are going to win games. Juan Uribe fails to move him to third(strikes out) Ozuna fails to move him to third(strikes out) and Iguchi grounds out. First rule of small ball: leadoff doubles must score. Sox blow an easy chance to gain some momentum back.

All Tops of Innings Except the First-The White Sox struck out at least once in every inning except the first. They didn't put the ball in play and when the defense only has to make 13 outs in a game, they'd really have to give it away to lose. Again, not the way to play small ball.

I usually reserve this word for Cubs fans, but it is downright ignorant for a White Sox fan to say that Joe Crede cost us the game tonight. He contributed to the loss, he made a poor play in the third, and he's sure no Alex Rodriguez in the field or at the plate. Those are fair. To say that he's the sole cause of the loss is preposterous. No player can be said to have played their best game tonight, and a series of mental errors and physical errors cost us the game.

Besides that, the Twins played good baseball. This shouldn't be a surprise; they're a good baseball team. Santana pitched great, struck out 14, and in general had our players off balance the whole game. Their offense took advantage of the pitching mistakes which can be summed up by Hunter taking a Buerhle mistake out of the yard. Definitely a game changer there. Their bullpen held on to the win.

I guess with this post I've made it my personal crusade to be Crede's cheerleader, but I'm tired of him being the scapegoat of this team(this 4-2, division leading team, I might add). He's been hitting the ball hard and has played overall good defense. He's not great but he didn't lose this one for us. Now lets take 2 out of 3 from Cleveland. I totally agree! He actually had a overall very good defensive game. Let's take another divisional series on the road starting Monday, and I'll be happy.

IA_soxfan
04-11-2005, 01:26 AM
I agree too. I was pretty frustrated with Crede's botch, but I think the K's where what killed us tonight. What really chapped me was that it seemed like we were having an inordinant amount of looking K's.

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 01:34 AM
I agree too. I was pretty frustrated with Crede's botch, but I think the K's where what killed us tonight. What really chapped me was that it seemed like we were having an inordinant amount of looking K's.

Well, late in the game the strike zone for White Sox hitters was pretty much shins to shoulders and six inches outside each side. I believe Everett, Rowand, and Dye were all called out on chest high pitches. Then there were the Ks like Uribe swinging at a high pitch and Iguchi going for one outside. At that point you think "the umps are gonna call that a strike anyway, so I might as well swing." All in all, it was an ugly game. Crede alone didnt cost us the game, but he certainly hurt us today. Buehrle didnt have his good stuff, but he still got people out. That is good. Lets just sleep it off and move on to Cleveland.

owensmouth
04-11-2005, 03:05 AM
Why did we lose? Well, Mark Buehrle pitched an ordinary Buehrle game. Last year he started 36 games. He gave up about 4 earned runs per game. Last nite he gave up five. He also gave up 33 homeruns last year, just under one per game.

Several players made less than spectacular plays. Iguchi's throw to first, though it didn't figure in any scores. Rowand's abismal throw to somewhere in the vicinity of second that allowed Rivas to ultimately score the first run. Crede slipping on the carpet and then tipping the ball.

This is the defense that's gonna win the division? Hardly. More likely it'll continue to doom the Sox to second or third place.

Jurr
04-11-2005, 05:29 AM
Why did we lose? Well, Mark Buehrle pitched an ordinary Buehrle game. Last year he started 36 games. He gave up about 4 earned runs per game. Last nite he gave up five. He also gave up 33 homeruns last year, just under one per game.

Several players made less than spectacular plays. Iguchi's throw to first, though it didn't figure in any scores. Rowand's abismal throw to somewhere in the vicinity of second that allowed Rivas to ultimately score the first run. Crede slipping on the carpet and then tipping the ball.

This is the defense that's gonna win the division? Hardly. More likely it'll continue to doom the Sox to second or third place.
The hardest place to play defense in the league is in Minnesota. Nobody's accustomed to those bounces except the Twins players, and it's been an advantage for them for ages. We've played great defense in every game this season except this one. Lapses happen every once in a while. Buehrle and Crede both slipped in this game. Those things happen. Our defense is a plus, not a liability. Remember...we only play 10 or so games in the Dome. Everywhere else is freshly cut grass, and we do pretty damn well on that surface. Despite the Twins' advantage with the surface, we still beat them at their own game 2 OUT OF 3!!!! Yet, because we lose one game, it's time to bitch and moan. Pretty weak.

hose
04-11-2005, 06:14 AM
My persective at the time was that the 3rd inning did in the Sox.

I didn't have a good feeling with Santana on the mound and Nathan in the pen.

2 out of 3 in the baggy dome is ok with me.

ChicagoHoosier
04-11-2005, 08:05 AM
I personally appreciate/respect a thread started on this topic. I've truly enjoyed reading and contributing to the message board in the past few months, but there is so much negative posting usually aimed at one or two factors in a game. I'm glad to see that some folks can look at the game as a whole, looking at postitives and other negatives besides the obvious plays, and put it all together to help analyze why we lost the game.

Same as the Cleveland loss, I'm dissapointed in this L. But, Crede did not lose the game for us. Same as Ozzie did not lose the Cleveland game for us by mismanaging. You simply take multiple mistakes together (as pointed out by BRDSR), add them up, and that usually explains the loss.

All in all, good start to the season. I need to read the other thead that is reflecting on all six games as a whole, but there are definite signs of optimism as well as areas that need improvement. How we fare over the next month or two will depend on how well we correct the mistakes learned from a game such as last night.

infohawk
04-11-2005, 09:25 AM
As I wrote on another thread, there's absolutely no shame in losing a game to Johann Santana in the Metrodome. Winning the first two made it all the more palatable. The big accomplishment this series was beating Radke in the second game. That was huge.

gosox41
04-11-2005, 11:45 AM
The Postgame thread is full of people blaming Crede for because he botched one play in the field that resulted in a three run homer later in the inning. I want to take a look at some other key moments in this ballgame that contributed(heavily) to the loss as well.

Top 1st-White Sox get their first two men aboard and they're on second and third with nobody out. Instead of putting together a nice inning and scoring both(which is what small ball teams do), they score only one and let the Twins out of the inning without much damage. Paulie couldn't get the flyball deep enough(or Iguchi didn't get a good enough break) and we only get one in.

Bottom 3rd-Mark Buerhle doesn't pitch Torii Hunter correctly. When the count goes 3-0 on a quality hitter that doesn't allow pitchers to make many mistakes, don't pitch to him with a 3-0 count. Nibble. Throw high and way out of zone. Concede the walk. With two outs you can afford a man on base because they still need a hit to score. I have enough confidence(and Mark Buerhle should too) that he can get Lew Ford out with two outs and men in scoring position. Serving up a fat one to Hunter is not the answer. No way he should get a pitch to hit after going 3-0 on him.

Top 7th-Crede leads off the inning with a double and cannot be brought home. Again, not how small ball teams are going to win games. Juan Uribe fails to move him to third(strikes out) Ozuna fails to move him to third(strikes out) and Iguchi grounds out. First rule of small ball: leadoff doubles must score. Sox blow an easy chance to gain some momentum back.

All Tops of Innings Except the First-The White Sox struck out at least once in every inning except the first. They didn't put the ball in play and when the defense only has to make 13 outs in a game, they'd really have to give it away to lose. Again, not the way to play small ball.

I usually reserve this word for Cubs fans, but it is downright ignorant for a White Sox fan to say that Joe Crede cost us the game tonight. He contributed to the loss, he made a poor play in the third, and he's sure no Alex Rodriguez in the field or at the plate. Those are fair. To say that he's the sole cause of the loss is preposterous. No player can be said to have played their best game tonight, and a series of mental errors and physical errors cost us the game.

Besides that, the Twins played good baseball. This shouldn't be a surprise; they're a good baseball team. Santana pitched great, struck out 14, and in general had our players off balance the whole game. Their offense took advantage of the pitching mistakes which can be summed up by Hunter taking a Buerhle mistake out of the yard. Definitely a game changer there. Their bullpen held on to the win.

I guess with this post I've made it my personal crusade to be Crede's cheerleader, but I'm tired of him being the scapegoat of this team(this 4-2, division leading team, I might add). He's been hitting the ball hard and has played overall good defense. He's not great but he didn't lose this one for us. Now lets take 2 out of 3 from Cleveland.

I agree. A game can e broken down in many ways. Here's a asimple one. Teams that score 2 runs are hard pressed to win.


Bob

Banix12
04-11-2005, 11:57 AM
As I wrote on another thread, there's absolutely no shame in losing a game to Johann Santana in the Metrodome. Winning the first two made it all the more palatable. The big accomplishment this series was beating Radke in the second game. That was huge.

Exactly, anytime you can go on the road to a rival ballpark and take 2 out of 3, pat yourself on the back for doing a good job. A sweep is fantastic, but 2 out of 3 is still great, especially when you lose your only game to last year's cy young winner.

And I don't blame Crede for that play, that was a tough play and there is no guarantee he could have turned it for an out anyway. I'll give Crede credit, late in Santana's start, when everybody was striking out, he hit a nice slap double and had a good approach against a pitcher who owns him. Hopefully it leads to a nice hitting streak.

soxfanforlife28
04-11-2005, 09:21 PM
The Postgame thread is full of people blaming Crede for because he botched one play in the field that resulted in a three run homer later in the inning. I want to take a look at some other key moments in this ballgame that contributed(heavily) to the loss as well.

Top 1st-White Sox get their first two men aboard and they're on second and third with nobody out. Instead of putting together a nice inning and scoring both(which is what small ball teams do), they score only one and let the Twins out of the inning without much damage. Paulie couldn't get the flyball deep enough(or Iguchi didn't get a good enough break) and we only get one in.

Bottom 3rd-Mark Buerhle doesn't pitch Torii Hunter correctly. When the count goes 3-0 on a quality hitter that doesn't allow pitchers to make many mistakes, don't pitch to him with a 3-0 count. Nibble. Throw high and way out of zone. Concede the walk. With two outs you can afford a man on base because they still need a hit to score. I have enough confidence(and Mark Buerhle should too) that he can get Lew Ford out with two outs and men in scoring position. Serving up a fat one to Hunter is not the answer. No way he should get a pitch to hit after going 3-0 on him.

Top 7th-Crede leads off the inning with a double and cannot be brought home. Again, not how small ball teams are going to win games. Juan Uribe fails to move him to third(strikes out) Ozuna fails to move him to third(strikes out) and Iguchi grounds out. First rule of small ball: leadoff doubles must score. Sox blow an easy chance to gain some momentum back.

All Tops of Innings Except the First-The White Sox struck out at least once in every inning except the first. They didn't put the ball in play and when the defense only has to make 13 outs in a game, they'd really have to give it away to lose. Again, not the way to play small ball.

I usually reserve this word for Cubs fans, but it is downright ignorant for a White Sox fan to say that Joe Crede cost us the game tonight. He contributed to the loss, he made a poor play in the third, and he's sure no Alex Rodriguez in the field or at the plate. Those are fair. To say that he's the sole cause of the loss is preposterous. No player can be said to have played their best game tonight, and a series of mental errors and physical errors cost us the game.

Besides that, the Twins played good baseball. This shouldn't be a surprise; they're a good baseball team. Santana pitched great, struck out 14, and in general had our players off balance the whole game. Their offense took advantage of the pitching mistakes which can be summed up by Hunter taking a Buerhle mistake out of the yard. Definitely a game changer there. Their bullpen held on to the win.

I guess with this post I've made it my personal crusade to be Crede's cheerleader, but I'm tired of him being the scapegoat of this team(this 4-2, division leading team, I might add). He's been hitting the ball hard and has played overall good defense. He's not great but he didn't lose this one for us. Now lets take 2 out of 3 from Cleveland.. I totally agree on what u had said. Its a team game. Wins and loses are based on how the team plays not on one player. Well said!