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View Full Version : Will umps be loving Santana forever?


pudge
04-10-2005, 10:42 PM
Beside Crede being a loser, did anyone else think the umping was awful on Sunday? The strike zone was huge - looks like Santana is going to get the old Glavine treatment for the next few years.

EDIT: I just saw voodoo defending Crede's tip in another thread... the problem is that he stumbled over his own damn feet, which resulted in the tip.

Banix12
04-10-2005, 10:45 PM
I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed. Early in the game the Ump refused to give Buehrle the outside corner, the same corner he was giving Santana. As the game went along Santana's strike zone just kept getting bigger and bigger to the point where the sox had to pretty much swing at everything or it was a strike.

samram
04-10-2005, 10:46 PM
Yeah, it was bad, but they weren't going to do much with Santana after the third inning anyway. That changeup was unhittable. Now that call at third on the stolen base was laughable.

Fake Chet Lemon
04-10-2005, 10:47 PM
When you win a Cy-Young, membership has it's privileges. He is going to get the calls, we have to deal with it. I'm sure Frank Thomas gets more borderline calls than Willie Harris at the dish. Let's not blame the loss on the umps and sound like Radke last night.

mealfred13
04-10-2005, 10:47 PM
Yeah, it was bad, but they weren't going to do much with Santana after the third inning anyway. That changeup was unhittable. Now that call at third on the stolen base was laughable.

But the changeup was only unhittable because it was so low and away, they couldn't hit it if they swung at it, and the ump was calling it for strikes.

AJPosguchi
04-10-2005, 10:49 PM
I would have to agree. It appeared pretty obvious the game behind the plate (barring the poor/close call at third), was very one sided. Twinks pitching got several called strikes that were off the plate, which would be OK if it had been called both ways. It appeared that Buerle had to throw the ball through a teecup to get a call.

Banix12
04-10-2005, 10:49 PM
When you win a Cy-Young, membership has it's privileges. He is going to get the calls, we have to deal with it. I'm sure Frank Thomas gets more borderline calls than Willie Harris at the dish. Let's not blame the loss on the umps and sound like Radke last night.

I'm not blaming the umps, the players have to make adjustments and deal with the zone as it comes, kinda like Crede did when he hit that double. I just like the umps to be consistant, his strike zone was definitely expanding as the game went along.

Rocklive99
04-10-2005, 10:52 PM
Yeah, he was getting both sides, and that late call on (was it Everett?) was complete BS, not even mentioning the one Dye was called out on. Not consistent late in the game compared to earlier, and even the loveable KZone was showing that the strikes called were off the plate. I'm not mad about those though, I'm sure all the players ask for is consistency. All umpires will not be consistent with each other, so the least they could do is keep the same zone that they "prefer" for the whole game

EDIT: Also, as someone mentioned in the game day thread, I hate when umpires seem to lean on the crowd for their calls, like on that late strikeout call, I guess it's a homefield advantage, but I can't stand it. It seemed like it happened more than once tonight, but anyways, put this one in the loss column, and move on

Mohoney
04-10-2005, 10:53 PM
I would say that the close pitches from Rincon and Nathan need to be offered at, though. You know that he's going to call a strike on anything close when there's a 3 run deficit; you have to swing the bat.

samram
04-10-2005, 10:53 PM
But the changeup was only unhittable because it was so low and away, they couldn't hit it if they swung at it, and the ump was calling it for strikes.

He was blowing the fastball by them too. It's just one of those games. They still won the series and now Millwood should look like a BP pitcher tomorrow in comparison.

AJPosguchi
04-10-2005, 10:56 PM
I thought the pitch Willie got called out on was the worst call of the night.

Shorty1983
04-10-2005, 11:07 PM
Joe Morgan is a joke, he knows damn well that the K-Zone was in favor for Johova. Buehrle had to throw perfect strikes in order to get ahead.

Irishsox1
04-10-2005, 11:14 PM
The home plate ump was inconsistant. Towards the end of the game, his strike zone was all over the place.

Juice16
04-10-2005, 11:19 PM
I know the Sox didn't lose due to the umps alone. But the problem is Santana is already a dominant pitcher and he doesn't need 2-4 inches on each corner. How many strikeout pitches were not in the KZone. So many Miller and Morgan finally gave up defending the calls. It is sad when officiating in whatever sport helps decide the outcome of a game.

skobabe8
04-11-2005, 01:32 AM
the only person who thought the umpiring was legit was my cub fan friend. It was terrible.

CorkNKerrys
04-11-2005, 02:14 AM
How about when Jon Miller and Joe Morgan, while busy worshipping Santana, replayed the pitch by pitch of the 11th K? The first and last strike didn't even turn ESPN's fancy little strike zone yellow. Way high, then low and out.

It's just like Ozzie said in his 4th inning interview, when asked why Buehrle isn't recognized nationally. "well, he plays for the White Sox, not the Red Sox or the Yankees."

The White Sox aren't going to be given ANY favors this year. They're picked to finish 3rd in virtually every 2005 projection. Nobody mentioned Carlos Lee and Ordonez until they were off the Sox. Now they're viewed as Godly, with a snickered comment about, "How could Chicago have let them go?"

We won't get Ump calls, we won't get national coverage, If, pardon me, WHEN the Sox beat the Cubs in a World Series, Headlines nationally will read, "Cubs lose World Series."

Under the radar.

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 02:24 AM
The White Sox aren't going to be given ANY favors this year. They're picked to finish 3rd in virtually every 2005 projection.
Now now. There are several projections with the Sox in 4th.:rolleyes:

Nobody mentioned Carlos Lee and Ordonez until they were off the Sox. Now they're viewed as Godly, with a snickered comment about, "How could Chicago have let them go?"
Very true. I was questioning how the same Magglio that barely made four All Star teams, two of which was as a replacment player, is now a future hall of famer or a MVP candidate.

We won't get Ump calls, we won't get national coverage, If, pardon me, WHEN the Sox beat the Cubs in a World Series, Headlines nationally will read, "Cubs lose World Series."

Under the radar.
OK, you lost me here. I hope the Sox get to the World Series and win it soon. That is reasonably possible. However, the Cubs are very very far from the playoffs, let alone the World Series. But you are right, we arent going to get any calls. Its to be expected that the Cy Young winner will get favorable calls, but some of those calls were ridiculous. More than that, you would expect Buehrle to get at least some of those favorable calls since he is also a great pitcher, but he was squeezed.
I guess the umps only watch ESPN. They dont know Buehrle, either.

jabrch
04-11-2005, 05:04 AM
bah...

I hate bitching about umpires. It really is pointless to me. Star pitchers might get the inch on the corner. Guys with great movement might get the benefit of the doubt. We didn't lose that game due to umpiring.

Jurr
04-11-2005, 05:15 AM
There were some key ABs that were killed due to that guy's strike zone. He was giving Santana four inches off the plate at times, and that led to a lot of 1-2 counts. When Santana's getting ahead with help, it makes things impossible. Also factor in that 3 or 4 strikeouts were terrible calls, and it makes me sick.

About the 6th inning is when Buehrle started getting a little love on the outside corner. In the AB against Hunter (the bomb), Buehrle hits the outside corner twice, and a LOT closer than many of Santana's pitches. If you watch the game again, he throws his hands out beside him as if to say, "what the hell was that?" This occurs at the 2-0 count, when he absolutely throws a strike that gets a ball. Why is an ump going to squeeze one guy and let the other get two to three inches off the black of the plate with regularity?

One game comes to mind....three years ago when Eric Milton and ? (can't remember our starter) were at the Hump dome, and our hitters were baffled that certain balls were being called for strikes. 5 of the first 6 hitters were called out on strikes LOOKING. Hawk and DJ kept showing the pitches again on replay and were baffled. Don't tell me that those strike zones affect the outcome of the game. Hitting is hard enough as it is.

DrCrawdad
04-11-2005, 07:08 AM
the only person who thought the umpiring was legit was my cub fan friend. It was terrible.

Yeah, and that's funny 'cos NOBODY complains about umpiring as much as Cub players, Cub broadcasters (primarily Ron Santo) and Cub fans.

If that were the Cubs last night Barrett would have been tossed as well as Baker and Santo would have tossed a limb at the ump.

:angry:

DrCrawdad
04-11-2005, 07:10 AM
I thought the pitch Willie got called out on was the worst call of the night.

Yeah, and you notice that ESPN didn't K-Zone that one?

Iguana775
04-11-2005, 08:53 AM
Beside Crede being a loser, did anyone else think the umping was awful on Sunday? The strike zone was huge - looks like Santana is going to get the old Glavine treatment for the next few years.

EDIT: I just saw voodoo defending Crede's tip in another thread... the problem is that he stumbled over his own damn feet, which resulted in the tip.

he was horribly inconsistant for both Burly and Santana.

tstrike2000
04-11-2005, 09:16 AM
I think everyone agrees the calling of balls and strikes last night was about as inconsistant as we've seen in a long time. That definitely helped in Santana's favor. And of course ESPN is going to favor the Twins because they've won the division the last three years in a row and had the reigning Cy Young winner on the hill. Joe Morgan did make some positive comments about the Sox with their new approach of "smart ball" as Guillen calls it. However, ESPN will jump on the bandwagon of any team that's winning. It doesn't helpt the Sox cause that they don't do well on nationally televised games.

Crede's not a loser. He tried to be aggressive on the defensive end and it didn't work out. Normally, his defense is money in the bank. Offensively, he's just one of 3 or 4 guys trying to find their groove. With Hunter up, that's where a manager has to step in and put Hunter on or intentionally walk him when Buehrle hit 3-0. Unfortunately, that was the turning point of the game.

infohawk
04-11-2005, 09:20 AM
Yeah, it was bad, but they weren't going to do much with Santana after the third inning anyway. That changeup was unhittable. Now that call at third on the stolen base was laughable.

There's no shame in losing to Johan Santana. I agree, however, that Crede had Hunter nailed at third. Brutal call. Hunter's foot was up against Joe's leg even while Joe was arguing his case to the umpire. It was as if Joe was saying, "Look, he's still not on the bag and I've got the tag on him!!!"

SoxEd
04-11-2005, 11:43 AM
Man, watching that game I ended up shouting at the umpires...

The zone in which they were giving Santana 'strikes' was soo much bigger than MB's.

I was thinking, "no, I have to be misjudging this", but then the ESPN announcers start talking up how good umpires usually are, and how an extra 2 inches on the outside edges is acceptable.
And then they show how far outside those pitches are with K-zone, which they then stop using on Santana's called strikes...

Yeah, we could (and should) have played better, but IMO the string of strikeouts awarded to Santana through the middle innings - every Sox batter falling way behind in the count, and followed with the Hunter 'safe' call at 3rd...

Home Umpiring did more to win this game than any perceived errors by Crede, or shocking swings at Santana's changeup.

Stroker Ace
04-11-2005, 11:57 AM
When you win a Cy-Young, membership has it's privileges. He is going to get the calls, we have to deal with it. I'm sure Frank Thomas gets more borderline calls than Willie Harris at the dish. Let's not blame the loss on the umps and sound like Radke last night.

Willie Harris doesn't get calls that go his way because he will swing at anything.

ma-gaga
04-11-2005, 12:06 PM
They need to put in the Questec system in another dozen stadiums. I was wondering how much extra Santana was getting, the K-Zone clearly shows that he was getting a bunch of extra plate. It certainly got bigger as the game went along. I loved listening to Morgan try to clarify his position that the umps "never miss a call". It was pretty amusing.

I did notice the ump squeezing Rincon a bit once Santana left. But the W.Sox didn't help themselves by swinging at just about everything at that point.

SOXSINCE'70
04-11-2005, 12:31 PM
the only person who thought the umpiring was legit was my cub fan friend. It was terrible.

This is true,but GOOD teams play above and beyond rotten umpiring.
Beuhrle didn't get a lot of calls,but you deal with it and move on.

Ol' No. 2
04-11-2005, 12:53 PM
FWIW, I thought the were calling the zone pretty evenly for the first few innings. But about the third or fourth inning when Santana settled in and started making Sox hitters look silly, that's when his strike zone started getting bigger. It shouldn't happen, but it does.

LVSoxFan
04-11-2005, 01:03 PM
The Kzone thing was pretty damning at points, though, LOL.

There was one strikeout where they went to it on replay to look at the pitch and it was waaaay outside of that box, so nobody knew what to say. And it happened more than once!

Yes, Santana's Cy Young status definitely helps him, just like MJ got a lot of calls when he was a Bulls superstar--calls lesser-known guys didn't.

But it wasn't the ump who hit the 3-run homer, bobbled the ball off third base or kept running our count to 2-0, 3-0... I didn't see a lot of Buehrle's pitches being unfairly called as balls.

Bad calls are part of the game, just like player errors--you roll with 'em. If we start obsessing about this, then: poof! We just became Cub fans.

TaylorStSox
04-11-2005, 01:17 PM
If the AL Cy Young winner was on our team, I'd want the bigger strike zone too. It's just a fact of baseball.

Let's not fool ourselves. Frank's had a smaller strike zone than most hitters for years. Especially for a guy his size.

Maddux and Glavine's zone has always been huge.

Mark's will get bigger as he becomes more established.

It's the same in all sports. You couldn't breath on Jordan if he was in the lane. If you looked at him wrong, it was a foul.