PDA

View Full Version : *Official* 4/10 - Crede Blows Postgame thread


FightingBillini
04-10-2005, 10:39 PM
Wow. Crede cost us the game today.
That is a routine play. It should have been an error, and all 4 runs in the 3rd should have been unearned.

Other than that, Santana had out hitters clueless. He had a very generous strikezone. It was funny watching Joe Morgan trying to cover for the umps on pitches K Zone showed were like 6 inches outside "Uhh, there is like a 2 inch margin. Hitters dont like it, but thats ok". Buehrle looked good. Tough loss.

Blueprint1
04-10-2005, 10:40 PM
Two runs just isnt going to do it.

Brian26
04-10-2005, 10:40 PM
Wow. Crede cost us the game today.

Kind of offtopic here, but I love the warm-up jersey Frank is wearing in Billini's sig photo. I hope they start selling those soon.

DoggPhood
04-10-2005, 10:41 PM
yes, crede sucks.

but, 2 out of 3 on the road at the home of our biggest rival is fine by me.

after one week of baseball, we're in first place and tied for the best record in the AL.

on to cleveland!

Brian26
04-10-2005, 10:41 PM
Two runs just isnt going to do it.

:hawk

"Too much Johan Santana tonight, DJ."

RKMeibalane
04-10-2005, 10:42 PM
CREDE SUCKS!

itsnotrequired
04-10-2005, 10:42 PM
Sox came into Minnesota 1 game over .500.

Sox left Minnesota 2 games over .500.

I'll take it.

Fake Chet Lemon
04-10-2005, 10:42 PM
We complain we get no respect nationally. But overall we never seem to play our best ball when we get that national stage. Everyone who said and wrote that we are a team devoid of power who would squeak out a run here and there and who said our starting pitching had to prove itself was MADE TO LOOK A GENIUS on the national game tonight.:angry:

MRKARNO
04-10-2005, 10:42 PM
Before you get angry realize:

-We faced only their best pitchers tonight and the totality of their best pitchers.
-The rest of their rotation includes Bradke, who's not been great lately, Lohse, Mays and Grassner. Scary.
-Their only wins have come when Santana and Silva have pitched and Silva's out
-The White Sox are still tied for the best record in the AL

So the game was upsetting, but I'm unconcerned in general. Buehrle's HR that he yielded was Crede's fault to some extent (not entirely).

Brian26
04-10-2005, 10:43 PM
Break it down for me, Sam Ryan.

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 10:43 PM
Wow. Crede cost us the game today.

Okay, can you explain this one to me? Because he tipped that ball? You are guaranteeing that Uribe throws out Lacroy from that deep in the hole on that slow of a roller?

Buehrle made one bad pitch. Hunter jacked it into the seats. This game both showed the good and bad aspects of small ball. The teams had almost identical lines except the Sox gave up some outs to take single runs and the Twins played station to station and hit the 3-run bomb.

Getting damned tired of Crede being the whipping boy for the fans around here. You act like he intentionally knocked the ball away from Uribe. I guess he told Mark to grove that thigh high center cut 88 MPH fastball to Hunter too...:rolleyes:

Fake Chet Lemon
04-10-2005, 10:44 PM
yes, crede sucks.

but, 2 out of 3 on the road at the home of our biggest rival is fine by me.

after one week of baseball, we're in first place and tied for the best record in the AL.

on to cleveland!

This was Manuals attitude after we won the first two in New York and he started Cotts. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I hate that sentiment. It's not OK to lose against the Twins, with our ace, on National TV, with a sweep on the line.

gobears1987
04-10-2005, 10:44 PM
Crede needs to be traded now.

Brian26
04-10-2005, 10:45 PM
ESPN filling time here since Buehrle/Santana worked so quickly they finished before 10pm.

GiveMeSox
04-10-2005, 10:45 PM
We complain we get no respect nationally. But overall we never seem to play our best ball when we get that national stage. Everyone who said and wrote that we are a team devoid of power who would squeak out a run here and there and who said our starting pitching had to prove itself was MADE TO LOOK A GENIUS on the national game tonight.:angry:

No they didn't. An a morons eyes yes. But lets not forget this was Santana pitching, the best in the game and the cy young winner. 2 runs off him is dam good especially since we were winning 2-0 going into the 3rd. We also out hit the twins 9 to 7 on the nights. And if i recall corectly the only time we beat Santana last year was when Lee hit a 2 run homers and we won 2-1 behind garland. Hey we still scored the same 2 runs and had even more chances this time. THe difference was one mistake pitch by buehrle which the blew the game open for the twins. IF that pitch is a little more in or out its a flyout and the game is tied.

chisoxmike
04-10-2005, 10:45 PM
Bad game, the Crede botch shifted the momentum, some questionable calls by the umps but tomorrow is another day. It's only April 10. Breath.

FightingBillini
04-10-2005, 10:45 PM
Before you get angry realize:

-We faced only their best pitchers tonight and the totality of their best pitchers.
That makes is that much worse. Buehrle matched Santana. He really only gave up 1 earned run, though the scorers didnt call an error on Crede in the 3rd. If Crede makes that routine play, the Sox win.

santo=dorf
04-10-2005, 10:45 PM
Okay, can you explain this one to me? Because he tipped that ball? You are guaranteeing that Uribe throws out Lacroy from that deep in the hole on that slow of a roller?

That ball wasn't hit that slowly, and Uribe had already made a play from deep short/shallow left field earlier in the game.
I'm very confident that Uribe gets him there.

Brian26
04-10-2005, 10:46 PM
This was Manuals attitude after we won the first two in New York and he started Cotts. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I hate that sentiment. It's not OK to lose against the Twins, with our ace, on National TV, with a sweep on the line.

True, but, keep in mind if we continue this pace (win 2 of 3) for the rest of the season, we will be in great shape.

cwsfannick
04-10-2005, 10:46 PM
I missed Crede's play, but these guys struck out 14 times. In my opinion that was a bigger problem. You have to get to Santana early and often and if not, then he gets into a flow and is lights out.

DickAllen72
04-10-2005, 10:46 PM
I'm not going to blame this loss entirely on Crede, but I'd like to see Ozuna get a couple of starts at third base. If he does well, when Frank comes back maybe it's Crede who should be moved, not Timo and certainly not Willie or Ozuna.

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 10:46 PM
That ball wasn't hit that slowly, and Uribe had already made a play from deep short/shallow left field earlier in the game.
I'm very confident that Uribe gets him there.

Well of course you are... because it allows you to continue blaming Crede...:rolleyes:

santo=dorf
04-10-2005, 10:47 PM
That makes is that much worse. Buehrle matched Santana. He really only gave up 1 earned run, though the scorers didnt call an error on Crede in the 3rd. If Crede makes that routine play, the Sox win.
I don't know about that, but it sure seems that the umpires changed their game calling after that inning though. :angry:

batmanZoSo
04-10-2005, 10:47 PM
Buehrle didn't have control tonight. And we played sloppy defense. 2 runs off Santana can do it normally if Buehrle's on, but he wasn't.

Brian26
04-10-2005, 10:47 PM
Bad game, the Crede botch shifted the momentum, some questionable calls by the umps but tomorrow is another day.

That's sort of my thought as well. No, Crede's error (or non-called error) didn't directly cause Hunter's homer, but it sure was a change in momentum, and you could almost feel Hunter's bomb coming before it happened.

Dub25
04-10-2005, 10:48 PM
This was Manuals attitude after we won the first two in New York and he started Cotts. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I hate that sentiment. It's not OK to lose against the Twins, with our ace, on National TV, with a sweep on the line.

I agree that its not ok to lose against the Twins but Dogg Phood was trying to say hey we went up there and 2 of 3. I'll take that as well. :gulp: :gulp:

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 10:48 PM
I missed Crede's play, but these guys struck out 14 times. In my opinion that was a bigger problem. You have to get to Santana early and often and if not, then he gets into a flow and is lights out.

Yep, Ump had a night game getaway plate and the Twin pitchers took advantage. They were consistently closer to the plate than Mark who was high and wide regularly tonight.

Sox got beat by superior pitching and not enough power...

mealfred13
04-10-2005, 10:48 PM
Man, way too much Crede-hating going on around here. He attempted to make a diving stop on a hard-hit ball and did whatever he could to knock it down. It's just too bad that it deflected away from Uribe.

I think Joe is trying too hard to be perfect on the field and sometimes things like that will happen.

That notwithstanding, Crede didn't put 2 runners on base, and Crede didn't throw 3 straight balls to Torii Hunter. Crede also wasn't responsible for not putting Torii on when the count was 3-0 with first base open. Say what you want about this game, but don't blame the loss on Crede.

Buehrle was doing pretty well and got out of some tough jams, but if he walks Torii on the 3-0 pitch, he gets a fresh count against Lew Ford, who's been grounding out to short quite a bit. Torii should have been put on, period. Worst case, Ford takes Buehrle yard and we lose by 4 instead of 3, but that's no excuse for throwing a meatball on a 3-0 count with 2 men in scoring position and 1st base open.

spongyfungy
04-10-2005, 10:48 PM
it's too bad we couldn't give Buehrle the support but then Santana is hard to hit against. I hate it when we lay eggs on national television. It just gives networks more of a reason to crap on us. Buehrle tried his best to keep it close, inducing two potential double plays in the same inning.

I cringed when they showed that "smart ball" graphic when the camera panned to Ozzie, because we sure looked stupid. From Crede knocking the ball down (even though he tried his best), to Politte dropping the ball and Iguchi not covering 1st. We got rattled and Torrii took advantage stealing not one but two bases.

Torrii is a Sox killer and it showed today.

itsnotrequired
04-10-2005, 10:48 PM
I missed Crede's play, but these guys struck out 14 times. In my opinion that was a bigger problem. You have to get to Santana early and often and if not, then he gets into a flow and is lights out.

For reals. How many time were Sox hitters 0-2 in the count? Tough to fight back from that with somone like Santana on the mound.

Bring on Millwood!

Soxzilla
04-10-2005, 10:48 PM
I'm not quite sure I mentioned this in chat or not, but...


CREDE SUCKS!

RKMeibalane
04-10-2005, 10:48 PM
Well of course you are... because it allows you to continue blaming Crede...:rolleyes:

Just out of curiosity, why does it matter to you what the posters here think of Joe Crede?

Brian26
04-10-2005, 10:49 PM
I'm not going to blame this loss entirely on Crede, but I'd like to see Ozuna get a couple of starts at third base.

Ozuna looked a little shaky in left anyway. He probably belongs in the infield more often than not.

MRKARNO
04-10-2005, 10:49 PM
I would say that poor umpiring hurt the White Sox, but they just bought into Santana's tricks with the changeup and that's really why they lost. Konerko's probably more to blame than Crede as he failed to get that second run in the first inning and he didnt come through with the base hit in the one chance that we really had to get him. Crede is a convenient scapegoat for this game though.

Soxfest
04-10-2005, 10:49 PM
Crede did hurt but 3 inches inside and outside off plate cannot cover that.

CubsfansareDRUNK
04-10-2005, 10:49 PM
does anyone like crede?

JUribe1989
04-10-2005, 10:49 PM
Hey great job to win the series Sox! Let's go get Millwood tomorrow and not make him look so good. Maybe we should think about Uribe at 3B, Harris/Ozuna at SS, and Iguchi at 2B.

A.T. Money
04-10-2005, 10:49 PM
It's the 6th game of the year, we took both series. It's a fine start. We need to just move on. This is one of the 60 we will lose. On to Cleveland...let's kick their asses.

owensmouth
04-10-2005, 10:50 PM
Look. I'm not in love with Joe Kreed either, but there was a far more obvious misplay that won't show up in the statistics. Aaron Rowand caught a fly ball to right center with Rivas tagging up. Had Rowand just gotten a good throw in, Rivas is out. Instead, he missed the bag and it landed somewhere around shortstop. THAT is the defensive boner of the game. Crede had slipped and was trying to keep the ball from going into the outfield.

Jurr
04-10-2005, 10:50 PM
Hell...let's forget Crede's beautiful pick to rob extra bases or his double tonight. Let's also forget that great stab he made the other day in a tight ball game to keep it close (Cleveland..game 2 I think.).

Let's cry about one loss.

FightingBillini
04-10-2005, 10:50 PM
That ball wasn't hit that slowly, and Uribe had already made a play from deep short/shallow left field earlier in the game.
I'm very confident that Uribe gets him there.
And more importantly, Crede should have made that play himself. I realize he didn't "want" to trip, but that is inexcusable.

Kogs35
04-10-2005, 10:50 PM
is it nice to sweep series yes all the time, but as long as there taking 2 of 3 or 3 of 4 then i cant ask for anything else great first week of the season. now off to the jake to take another series. 1 series at a time

A.T. Money
04-10-2005, 10:50 PM
does anyone like crede?

I'll be honest. I feel like he's pretty much an automatic out. He doesn't have any confidence.

Dub25
04-10-2005, 10:51 PM
4-2 is not bad after 1 week. They are 1 pitch from being 5-1 and possibly 2 pitches from 6-0.

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 10:51 PM
Just out of curiosity, why does it matter to you what the posters here think of Joe Crede?

I just don't get it. It's early in the season. The guy is clearly trying his ass off out there. He clearly has made better contact early in the season - albeit with not much to show for it.

I like to live in the real world. The Sox lost because TorIIIIII jacked a fat straight fastball into the seats driving in more runs in one swing than the Sox managed all night... So of course... it's Crede's fault...:?:

shoota
04-10-2005, 10:52 PM
Crede's unofficial error was THE game changing moment. Santana was hittable up until he got the 4-2 lead staked to him by Hunter/Crede. After Santana got the 2-run lead he became confident and controlled the Sox hitters for the rest of the game.

CubsfansareDRUNK
04-10-2005, 10:52 PM
I'll be honest. I feel like he's pretty much an automatic out. He doesn't have any confidence.

didnt he only have 1 hit out of 16 at bats against santana? *upchuck*

Jerry Seinfeld
04-10-2005, 10:52 PM
Yes, Crede does suck, but at least we took 2 out of 3 from the Twins. If we continue to win every series, that will eventually make up for Crede's suckiness. Extreme suckiness.

chisoxmike
04-10-2005, 10:52 PM
Let's all cool out, we all tend, including myself, get pissed off during a game like this. I'm going to get a beer, who's with me?

soltrain21
04-10-2005, 10:52 PM
I am still upset about the call at 3rd base. I don't care if Hunters SB didn't lead to anything, that ******* was still out.

CubsfansareDRUNK
04-10-2005, 10:53 PM
Crede's error was THE game changing moment. Santana was hittable up until he got the 4-2, staked to him by Hunter/Crede. After Santana got the 2-run lead he became confident and controlled the Sox hitters for the rest of the game.

just like last year when hunter dove (which i was at), thats when our season started to go down the crapper

MRKARNO
04-10-2005, 10:53 PM
Let's be honest here, Buehrle probably deserves his fair share of the blame as well. It was his fault that he uncharacteristically got behind so many hitters and walked three, which is a lot for him. When he got behind Torii 3-0, he had pretty much screwed himself over and that was a poor 3-1 pitch. A lot of those pitches werent even close. I know Buehrle is usually really good, but I would say it's fair to blame him for the loss tonight. He was off, plain and simple.

Rocklive99
04-10-2005, 10:53 PM
Yeah, I was taking all the Crede comments in stride in the gameday thread, that was no routine play. Buerhle was still missing spots and put himself in a 3-0(1) hole with Hunter, mixed in with Santana and iffy umpiring, and we've got an L. As much of a shock as it is, we're going to lose again this season :o: Back to Crede, I'm frustrated about the offesnive side, he's starting to become a liability, it was nice to see him to pick up that late hit though. I give him 1 more series, not sure if Ozzie will be so generous

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 10:53 PM
does anyone like crede?

Don't hate him the way some of these posters do. He may never be the world beater they predicted he would be. Who knows. This is his season to prove it for sure, but it's a little early to be hammering the guy this hard when he has been having some tough luck and working his ass off...

santo=dorf
04-10-2005, 10:55 PM
I just don't get it. It's early in the season. The guy is clearly trying his ass off out there. He clearly has made better contact early in the season - albeit with not much to show for it.

I like to live in the real world. The Sox lost because TorIIIIII jacked a fat straight fastball into the seats driving in more runs in one swing than the Sox managed all night... So of course... it's Crede's fault...:?:

I didn't say it's Crede's fault we lost the game. He ****ed up that play and it was costly.
Fact: Uribe has a good arm.
Fact: Uribe already made a great throw from deep short earlier in the game.
Fact: Lecroy is slower than Molasses.

I wouldn't be this hard on Crede if he didn't have the 2004 that he had.

PicktoCLick72
04-10-2005, 10:55 PM
I hate all these Crede sucks posts. It was an agressive mistake and in no way should have been an error. How do we know Uribe would have thrown him out? I feel like people are wanting him to fail so we can blame any problems on him. We are 4-2 and all people can say is how much Crede sucks. Buehrle pitched well, but he bought that home on him self when he went down 3-0. We took 2 out of 3 in Minnesota which is important. How about we wait a little more than a week before we give up on Crede.

Jurr
04-10-2005, 10:55 PM
Crede's unofficial error was THE game changing moment. Santana was hittable up until he got the 4-2, staked to him by Hunter/Crede. After Santana got the 2-run lead he became confident and controlled the Sox hitters for the rest of the game.
That kid is money with the glove on most plays and is a great defensive asset. He'll also hit .245 and hit 20 bombs. Get off the kid for one play where he lost his footing. Buehrle did the same damn thing. God forbid you ever screw up on the job.

FightingBillini
04-10-2005, 10:56 PM
Sox got beat by superior pitching and not enough power...
That is insane. You are assuming that if we had "more power" as in another all or nothing power hitter,we would have won? That is ridiculous. How is it that you sat by these last few years and watched the offense be all or nothing with the power going completely out in one run games, and now that we "lost" power, you can assume it would have won us the game?

Soxzilla
04-10-2005, 10:56 PM
Don't hate him the way some of these posters do. He may never be the world beater they predicted he would be. Who knows. This is his season to prove it for sure, but it's a little early to be hammering the guy this hard when he has been having some tough luck and working his ass off...

I never expected him to be a world beater. Although I would prefer if he could make the routine play at third basemen, since his defense is SOOOOO EXCELLENT.

Crede is the suckiest suck on this team. He is the weakest link, and I yearn for the day that he sits his crappy butt on the bench in favor of Ozuna.

Crede looked beat at the plate every single at-bat before he even stepped into the box.

owensmouth
04-10-2005, 10:56 PM
Crede's unofficial error was THE game changing moment. Santana was hittable up until he got the 4-2, staked to him by Hunter/Crede. After Santana got the 2-run lead he became confident and controlled the Sox hitters for the rest of the game.If Rowand had made a decent throw from center on that fly out, Hunter doesn't come to bat that inning.

Cowhead418
04-10-2005, 10:57 PM
Well that game sucked but I got over it. Crede isn't the only one to blame here. Let's just go beat those Injuns tomorrow! :cheers:

Rocklive99
04-10-2005, 10:57 PM
I didn't say it's Crede's fault we lost the game. He ****ed up that play and it was costly.
Fact: Uribe has a good arm.
Fact: Uribe already made a great throw from deep short earlier in the game.
Fact: Lecroy is slower than Molasses.


Your assumption: Crede knew that Uribe was right behind him

NSSoxFan
04-10-2005, 10:57 PM
Don't hate him the way some of these posters do. He may never be the world beater they predicted he would be. Who knows. This is his season to prove it for sure, but it's a little early to be hammering the guy this hard when he has been having some tough luck and working his ass off...

I don't hate Crede, I just get really frustrated with him. He seems to have so much talent yet something doesn't click in his head. The truth is, that play cost us the game. It isn't the end of the world, Joe just has to continue to go out there and work his ass off. IF he does that and nothing changes then the Sox have no choice but to show him the door.

Cowch44
04-10-2005, 10:58 PM
Didn't a lot of people hate Rowand at the beginning of last season?:?:

oeo
04-10-2005, 10:58 PM
Crede does blow, but you cannot blame this game solely on Crede. First of all, we scored only two runs, and against these Twins that is not a whole lot. And also, how come we hear no words about Buerhle? Yes that inning should have been over, but should've, could've, would've. Buerhle has got to back up his teammates and get that guy out and not get behind in the count and throw Torrii a cookie. Sorry but I can't blame this solely on Crede and just because you hate the guy doesn't give you the right either, they did not play a very good game after those first two innings.

EDIT: and plus I forgot to add how well Santana pitched out there, no team is going to beat him when he is throwing the ball that well.

Cowhead418
04-10-2005, 10:58 PM
Can we just forget about this game and think about Millwood getting rocked tomorrow?

batmanZoSo
04-10-2005, 10:59 PM
You can't be mad that we didn't sweep the Twins in the Dome by beating Santana to finish it off. Especially when he was close to top form while Buehrle had little control and command.

Third base is a position we're gonna have to upgrade. Crede's an automatic out and he lets it affect his fielding. Uribe has a strong enough arm to throw out Matthew Frickin LeCroy on a ball that wasn't hit that softly. Plus, Uribe didn't have much momentum going the other way. He would've planted and got him.

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 10:59 PM
That is insane. You are assuming that if we had "more power" as in another all or nothing power hitter,we would have won? That is ridiculous. How is it that you sat by these last few years and watched the offense be all or nothing with the power going completely out in one run games, and now that we "lost" power, you can assume it would have won us the game?

No, just more power in this game. We scored 2 via small ball. They scored 3 via the long ball and two more to boot. That's why the Sox lost THIS game...

mealfred13
04-10-2005, 11:00 PM
All the Crede haters should go start their own Crede-bashing thread. He looked great out there today. He had a great at-bat against Santana. He clearly did an excellent job of blocking the base to prevent a steal, despiste the blind umpire's call.

As Voodoo said, he's trying his ass off in the field and at the plate, and you can't blame Crede for the 3-run shot by Hunter. As I said before, Buehrle should have put Torii on after going 3-0 in the count. There's no reason to throw him a hanger so he can sit on it and drive it out. You can't blame Crede for that.

On top of that, the home plate umpire was pretty brutal with the strike zone today, with at least 3 or 4 of Santana's Ks being called on pitches that were either low or way outside or inside the zone. Besides that, and besides Buehrle's 1 horrible decision on the pitch to Hunter, there was really no significant difference between the teams today. Without that homerun, we were in extra innings. And besides all that, we're 4 and 2 and we took 2 of 3 from our biggest opponent in the division, losing only to their Cy Young Winning ACE pitcher, and even then only by a single bad pitch.

So take the Crede hating somewhere else and enjoy what we've done so far, for the love of Christ.

Navaro's Talent
04-10-2005, 11:00 PM
It would have been nice to win this game, but I'll gladly take two out of three from our rivals in their own park. Let's go, Freddy!

MRKARNO
04-10-2005, 11:01 PM
I just don't get it. It's early in the season. The guy is clearly trying his ass off out there. He clearly has made better contact early in the season - albeit with not much to show for it.

I like to live in the real world. The Sox lost because TorIIIIII jacked a fat straight fastball into the seats driving in more runs in one swing than the Sox managed all night... So of course... it's Crede's fault...:?:

I'm not with you on giving Crede a pass, but the Sox lost because of the Hunter home run. It came on a pitch to drive right over the heart of the plate and thus Buehrle is more responsible than Crede. It was not an error by Crede, the more I think about the whole thing rationally, but it was a bad sequence of pitches and a bad pitch by Buehrle. Torii took advantage. The White Sox didnt take advantage of their chances, of which they had less and they lost.

Fake Chet Lemon
04-10-2005, 11:01 PM
That kid is money with the glove on most plays and is a great defensive asset. He'll also hit .245 and hit 20 bombs. Get off the kid for one play where he lost his footing. Buehrle did the same damn thing. God forbid you ever screw up on the job.

A great defensive asset? Que Hawk, that's a
" S-T-R-E-T-C-H , S-T-R-E-T-C-H"

Rocklive99
04-10-2005, 11:02 PM
Ok, lets put this behind us, I have a feeling Ozzie and the boys will use this all as fuel for tomorow. Let's ruin another team's Opening Day ceremonies :redneck

Jurr
04-10-2005, 11:02 PM
I never expected him to be a world beater. Although I would prefer if he could make the routine play at third basemen, since his defense is SOOOOO EXCELLENT.

Crede is the suckiest suck on this team. He is the weakest link, and I yearn for the day that he sits his crappy butt on the bench in favor of Ozuna.

Crede looked beat at the plate every single at-bat before he even stepped into the box.

All right. When Crede comes through in the clutch about 5 times this year to win games, don't say a word about it. when he makes a game saving defensive play time after time, just shut up. If he ends up hitting .300 with 25 bombs, don't jump on the bandwagon.

TaylorStSox
04-10-2005, 11:02 PM
A) There's no way that's an error. It was deep in the hole. He couldn't get the glove out and tried to knock it down. THAT'S WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO. Maybe some posters needed Hawk to tell them that.

B) Crede's not the one that couldn't find the plate tonight. Mark didn't have it tonight. In fact, he pitched well for being so off. He's the one who fell behind Hunter. He's the one who threw a get me over fastball 3-1.

C) Santana's good. He's real good.

mealfred13
04-10-2005, 11:02 PM
I'm not with you on giving Crede a pass, but the Sox lost because of the Hunter home run. It came on a pitch to drive right over the heart of the plate and thus Buehrle is more responsible than Crede. It was not an error by Crede, the more I think about the whole thing rationally, but it was a bad sequence of pitches and a bad pitch by Buehrle. Torii took advantage. The White Sox didnt take advantage of their chances, of which they had less and they lost.

Like I said. Buehrle got behind in the count 3-0, and should have just put Torii on at that point. There's no reason to serve him a ball down the middle of the plate on that count.

DickAllen72
04-10-2005, 11:03 PM
Anyone know who leads the Sox in errors so far this season?

PicktoCLick72
04-10-2005, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted bymealfred13
All the Crede haters should go start their own Crede-bashing thread. He looked great out there today. He had a great at-bat against Santana. He clearly did an excellent job of blocking the base to prevent a steal, despiste the blind umpire's call.

As Voodoo said, he's trying his ass off in the field and at the plate, and you can't blame Crede for the 3-run shot by Hunter. As I said before, Buehrle should have put Torii on after going 3-0 in the count. There's no reason to throw him a hanger so he can sit on it and drive it out. You can't blame Crede for that.

On top of that, the home plate umpire was pretty brutal with the strike zone today, with at least 3 or 4 of Santana's Ks being called on pitches that were either low or way outside or inside the zone. Besides that, and besides Buehrle's 1 horrible decision on the pitch to Hunter, there was really no significant difference between the teams today. Without that homerun, we were in extra innings. And besides all that, we're 4 and 2 and we took 2 of 3 from our biggest opponent in the division, losing only to their Cy Young Winning ACE pitcher, and even then only by a single bad pitch.

So take the Crede hating somewhere else and enjoy what we've done so far, for the love of Christ.


AMEN

illinibk
04-10-2005, 11:03 PM
Don't hate him the way some of these posters do. He may never be the world beater they predicted he would be. Who knows. This is his season to prove it for sure, but it's a little early to be hammering the guy this hard when he has been having some tough luck and working his ass off...
I coudn't agree more. I liked his defensive effort on that play. How do we know Uribe never called for the ball? He made a good diving attempt and it just bounced the wrong way. Thats the breaks. Sometimes the ball bounces your way, sometimes it doesn't. Stop whining about Crede making a diving effort for a ball in the whole. Would you rather he just olé the ball on a regular basis?
You can say the Sox indirectly lost this game because of that play, but they lost because they couldn't hit Santana to save their lives, while Buehrle had trouble locating his pitches, even with the generous strike zone. It's one loss, we should be happy they took two of three up there. Deal with it and stop complaining about Crede.

FightingBillini
04-10-2005, 11:04 PM
No, just more power in this game. We scored 2 via small ball. They scored 3 via the long ball and two more to boot. That's why the Sox lost THIS game...
Really? I thought we lost because we gave up more runs.
It doesnt matter how they are scored, all that matters is how many you get.
Most importantly, the Sox will hit MANY more homers than the Twins. At least 20 more. You cant argue that power cost us this game.

Cowhead418
04-10-2005, 11:04 PM
I don't want to know what would happen to Crede if he were surrounded by the people here. Scary to think about.

Jurr
04-10-2005, 11:04 PM
A great defensive asset? Que Hawk, that's a
" S-T-R-E-T-C-H , S-T-R-E-T-C-H"
Obviously you don't watch many Sox games. How many times do we ever hear about Joe Crede botching a play? How many times?? RARELY. We expect him to make all the plays because day to day he makes a lot of hard plays look easy. When he screws up, everybody's ready to jump on him, causing me to really question the intelligence of a fan base that I hold in the highest regard.

balke
04-10-2005, 11:05 PM
Joe plays more solid D than he gets credit for here. I'm usually one to bash it. He's not superman over there, that was a near great play, Uribe was right behind him... life goes on.


Didn't that inning start w/ a leadoff walk? How much better is Uribe hitting than Crede right now? Gooch had a throwing error, and a close call on a high throw.

We can't just go demanding trades when someone isn't perfect 6 games into the season. He made a great play at 3rd that didn't get called, on the throwout of torii. He was aggressive out there, and yelled at the ump probably for the first time in his life. I liked to see it. I've given him too many second chances already to claim "he'll turn it around". But I'm not going to demand a trade just yet, he's not that bad. I'm sure whatever we'd give up for a 3rd baseman would ultimately hurt this team.

SoxSpeed22
04-10-2005, 11:05 PM
CREDE SUCKS!
Boy that was quick. If the left infield keeps this up we might have heavy problems with the lineup, even though Ozuna looks for real. The problem with facing a guy like Santana is you have to be just as good as him and Buehrle was not today. But 4-2 against divisional opponents ain't bad.

Jurr
04-10-2005, 11:06 PM
A) There's no way that's an error. It was deep in the hole. He couldn't get the glove out and tried to knock it down. THAT'S WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO. Maybe some posters needed Hawk to tell them that.

B) Crede's not the one that couldn't find the plate tonight. Mark didn't have it tonight. In fact, he pitched well for being so off. He's the one who fell behind Hunter. He's the one who threw a get me over fastball 3-1.

C) Santana's good. He's real good.
See?? There is hope for Sox fans.

CubsfansareDRUNK
04-10-2005, 11:06 PM
its not just that he blew a good play tonight. i've never seen him do anything good. sure he'll have a few homers once and a while but in general, he sucks
Josh Fields!!

TaylorStSox
04-10-2005, 11:06 PM
I don't want to know what would happen to Crede if he were surrounded by the people here. Scary to think about.

I don't know what would happen to the people here if they were surrounded by Crede. He's a pretty big guy. :redneck

shoota
04-10-2005, 11:07 PM
This is his season to prove it for sure, but it's a little early to be hammering the guy this hard when he has been having some tough luck and working his ass off...

What makes you say he's working his ass off? I could understand that statement if Crede had followed up a .239 hitting campaign with a month in winter ball seeing live pitching, but Crede never went. He stayed home and bought a batting cage.

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 11:07 PM
I don't hate Crede, I just get really frustrated with him. He seems to have so much talent yet something doesn't click in his head. The truth is, that play cost us the game. It isn't the end of the world, Joe just has to continue to go out there and work his ass off. IF he does that and nothing changes then the Sox have no choice but to show him the door.

I'm going to say this one more time than I am going to bed. Crede's raw effort that failed did not cost the Sox the game.

You are making a lot of assumptions, starting with the fact that Uribe throws out Lecroy and the Twins only manage the single other run they did and then the Sox go on to win in extra innings.

Of course the dogs have a new bone to worry, so no need to really look any deeper. Sorry, Joe, nothing you will do will ever be enough now. Not all those GW RBI SH's early last year, not the hustle, not the effort, not the way you clearly blocked the bag tonight when TorIIII got called safe. Not the way you adjusted your swing and laced the double to give the team a breath of hope late tonight, not the linedrives that keep finding people's mitts, not the way you just do your job without bitching, nothing... You gots to be perfect, Joe. The dogs have spoken and everytime you make any mistake, you are going to hear about it. Tell Mark, you are sorry for groving that 3-run bomb to Hunter. I'm sure he'll appreciate your comments...:rolleyes:

Rocklive99
04-10-2005, 11:08 PM
Obviously you don't watch many Sox games. How many times do we ever hear about Joe Crede botching a play? How many times?? RARELY. We expect him to make all the plays because day to day he makes a lot of hard plays look easy. When he screws up, everybody's ready to jump on him, causing me to really question the intelligence of a fan base that I hold in the highest regard.

Seriously, everyone takes the great plays he makes for granted, they're just expected now. Does anybody not remember the Jose Valentin experiment? (Ask LA how they feel about it in a month...)

CubsfansareDRUNK
04-10-2005, 11:08 PM
. He's a pretty big guy. :redneck

:tealtutor:

RKMeibalane
04-10-2005, 11:08 PM
I don't know what would happen to the people here if they were surrounded by Crede. He's a pretty big guy. :redneck

How can several people be surrounded by one person? It's not as though we're talking about Oliver Miller.

TaylorStSox
04-10-2005, 11:09 PM
:tealtutor:

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Jurr
04-10-2005, 11:09 PM
its not just that he blew a good play tonight. i've never seen him do anything good. sure he'll have a few homers once and a while but in general, he sucks
Josh Fields!!
Can we delete this post? Or can the poster watch a few more Sox games before writing this stuff?? Crede is solid in the field. Very solid. He makes hard plays look easy on most occasions. Is he scott rolen at the plate? No. But he gets his hits. He had a double tonight and started a rally last night with a hit. Get off him.

illinibk
04-10-2005, 11:09 PM
Crede looked beat at the plate every single at-bat before he even stepped into the box.
Uhhh, Konerko had that same look to him. He looked lost the entire game. Any pitcher with a good changeup absolutely OWNS Konerko, moreso than any other hitter in the lineup.

SluggersAway
04-10-2005, 11:09 PM
When Konerko, Dye, and Rowand are hitless, we don't have much chance of winning. These are the guys that have to put runs on the board for this team to win.

CubsfansareDRUNK
04-10-2005, 11:09 PM
How can several people be surrounded by one person? It's not as though we're talking about Oliver Miller.

thats true

RKMeibalane
04-10-2005, 11:10 PM
Somewhere in Tuscon...

:hurt

"****ing Crede!"

Fake Chet Lemon
04-10-2005, 11:10 PM
Obviously you don't watch many Sox games. How many times do we ever hear about Joe Crede botching a play? How many times?? RARELY. We expect him to make all the plays because day to day he makes a lot of hard plays look easy. When he screws up, everybody's ready to jump on him, causing me to really question the intelligence of a fan base that I hold in the highest regard.

Hasn't he already made two errors? I don't hate the guy. I just think he is thinking so hard at the plate, he can't help but take it into the field and it will affect his fielding this year. It's a big season and he knows it. He seems to be really feeling the pressure. We've got a good thing going on, if he continues to affect the team we have to be prepared to go another route. I've watched most games since 1977 by the way, and I've seen a lot of great Sox potential amount to very little over the years.

CubsfansareDRUNK
04-10-2005, 11:11 PM
Can we delete this post? Or can the poster watch a few more Sox games before writing this stuff?? Crede is solid in the field. Very solid. He makes hard plays look easy on most occasions. Is he scott rolen at the plate? No. But he gets his hits. He had a double tonight and started a rally last night with a hit. Get off him.
fine, im done crede bashing. but most people will agree with me that he's a below average

Navaro's Talent
04-10-2005, 11:11 PM
And how about Iguchi? This guy hit Santana like he was Todd Ritchie. He looks awesome. He only made that one bad throw to Konerko, but that run was going to score anyway, and it didn't cause any further damage.

Cowhead418
04-10-2005, 11:12 PM
Yeah Iguchi was awesome tonight! Never seen Santana before and gets two hits off of him!

oeo
04-10-2005, 11:12 PM
fine, im done crede bashing. but most people will agree with me that he's a below average

And most people will agree with me that a lot of your posts are inane. I'm sick of everyone blaming this game on Crede, you cannot blame it on one person, this is a TEAM.

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 11:12 PM
Really? I thought we lost because we gave up more runs.
It doesnt matter how they are scored, all that matters is how many you get.
Most importantly, the Sox will hit MANY more homers than the Twins. At least 20 more. You cant argue that power cost us this game.

3-run bombs box score from 4/10/2005, Minneapolis Roller Dome:

Twins: 1

Sox: 0

Total runs scored box score from 4/10/2005 Minneapolis Roller Dome:

Twins: 5

Sox: 2

I can. I did. I'm right.

mealfred13
04-10-2005, 11:13 PM
And how about Iguchi? This guy hit Santana like he was Todd Ritchie. He looks awesome. He only made that one bad throw to Konerko, but that run was going to score anyway, and it didn't cause any further damage.

I was extremely impressed with Iguchi tonight. He looks like he's really coming into his own already the last 2 or 3 games. I have a feeling he's gonna be big for us this year.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2005, 11:13 PM
And how about Iguchi? This guy hit Santana like he was Todd Ritchie. He looks awesome. He only made that one bad throw to Konerko, but that run was going to score anyway, and it didn't cause any further damage.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: I think Iguchi is going to have some special moments for this team. He didn't receive that much publicity when the Sox signed him, but I think he's going to earn a lot of respect around the American League this season.

Jurr
04-10-2005, 11:13 PM
Seriously, everyone takes the great plays he makes for granted, they're just expected now. Does anybody not remember the Jose Valentin experiment? (Ask LA how they feel about it in a month...)
Yeah..we obviously have people around here who don't remember Greg Norton, Herbert Perry, and Valentin at third, when you held your breath on every play hit in that direction. We're spoiled that we have a solid defensive third baseman who is so consistent down there that when he makes a mistake he inherently sucks.

Some people need to quit acting like Cubs fans.

ma_deuce
04-10-2005, 11:13 PM
Deal with it and stop complaining about Crede.

I'll stop complaining about Crede when he begins playing at least at the level of an average ballplayer. The Sox made a lot of moves to shore up loose ends this offseason, but there is still a hole in 3rd. If Crede can't get the job done both offensively and defensively, then he should grab some bench.

I don't know about you, but I'm sick of coming in second. And I'm sick of waiting for Joe to come into his own. If Crede can't get the job done, then put someone in there who can. :angry:

Deuce

TaylorStSox
04-10-2005, 11:14 PM
3 things that disturb me about this site.....

1) The whipping boys that are created by posters. ie. Rowand, Harris, Crede, LTP.

2) The assumption that certain minor league players are ready right now. ie. Malone, Honel, Fields.

3) The Cubs forum gets more hits than the Minor League forum.

ma_deuce
04-10-2005, 11:15 PM
:tomatoaward

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 11:16 PM
3 things that disturb me about this site.....

1) The whipping boys that are created by posters. ie. Rowand, Harris, Crede, LTP.

2) The assumption that certain minor league players are ready right now. ie. Malone, Honel, Fields.

3) The Cubs forum gets more hits than the Minor League forum.

Well you know... people LOVE simplistic explanations...

Rudy Law
04-10-2005, 11:16 PM
I'm not quite sure I mentioned this in chat or not, but...


CREDE SUCKS!



You need to get over that......It was a tough play....That ball was hit hard...It was not a routine play.....I agree he has made some big errors.....But he also made a terrific play after that......Torii Hunter should have been out at 3rd..That was a nice play by Crede......I thought even though they lost there were some positives to take out of this

1. We won the series(yes I know how many people have said that)
2. Buerhle didn't have his best stuff and he kept them in the game(just to much Santana)
3. Polite pitching over that Torri Hunter pop up and stolen base(stuff like that just happens)
4. Ighuci looked real good against Santana...He hit the ball hard
5. After 6 games I would say we have had 2 great, 3 real good and 1 alright starts..The Sox staff has pitched great when they really needed to get off to a good start
6. This should be their first loss...Damm you SHINGO!!!

DickAllen72
04-10-2005, 11:16 PM
.....not the way you clearly blocked the bag tonight when TorIIII got called safe. Not the way you adjusted your swing and laced the double to give the team a breath of hope late tonight.....

Joe does deserve credit for those two things tonight.

As I said, I don't put all the blame on Crede for the loss, but I would like to see if Ozuna could play third base well enough so that it would improve our lineup. If he shows he can, then we can trade Joe for a hot prospect when Frank comes back. If after a few starts it appears Ozuna can't handle third base, at least we'll know.

Jurr
04-10-2005, 11:16 PM
3 things that disturb me about this site.....

1) The whipping boys that are created by posters. ie. Rowand, Harris, Crede, LTP.

2) The assumption that certain minor league players are ready right now. ie. Malone, Honel, Fields.

3) The Cubs forum gets more hits than the Minor League forum.
That's been an issue for a bit, now.

CubsfansareDRUNK
04-10-2005, 11:16 PM
I'll stop complaining about Crede when he begins playing at least at the level of an average ballplayer. The Sox made a lot of moves to shore up loose ends this offseason, but there is still a hole in 3rd. If Crede can't get the job done both offensively and defensively, then he should grab some bench.

I don't know about you, but I'm sick of coming in second. And I'm sick of waiting for Joe to come into his own. If Crede can't get the job done, then put someone in there who can. :angry:

Deuce

yeah, thats what ive been saying and being criticized for it. I agree with Deuce

shoota
04-10-2005, 11:17 PM
Hasn't he already made two errors? I don't hate the guy. I just think he is thinking so hard at the plate, he can't help but take it into the field and it will affect his fielding this year. It's a big season and he knows it. He seems to be really feeling the pressure.

Two official errors, but we can't forget about his unofficial one tonight and the one where he tried to tag LeCroy at third and then double clutched, making his throw to first late.

Maybe I'm being too hard on Crede. He's a guy that could play in any year of any generation. Like 1919.

I really need to hear Dave Wills after a game like this.

jlim
04-10-2005, 11:17 PM
It would have been sweet revenge in the first inning if Iguchi tagged from 3rd on the flyball to Hunter and plowed over the catcher :(:

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 11:18 PM
I'll stop complaining about Crede when he begins playing at least at the level of an average ballplayer. The Sox made a lot of moves to shore up loose ends this offseason, but there is still a hole in 3rd. If Crede can't get the job done both offensively and defensively, then he should grab some bench.

I don't know about you, but I'm sick of coming in second. And I'm sick of waiting for Joe to come into his own. If Crede can't get the job done, then put someone in there who can. :angry:

Deuce

How sure are we that Ozuna is better than he is?

Is anyone else in the organization really ready for the job?

Should we give the guy at least a few weeks (or at least until the Sox are no longer taking 2 our of every 3 in every series and sitting in first) before calling for his head?

sweet merciful crap...

:threadsucks:

:threadblows:

:whoflungpoo

Lip Man 1
04-10-2005, 11:18 PM
Fake Chet Lemon says: "We complain we get no respect nationally. But overall we never seem to play our best ball when we get that national stage."

I don't have the stats to prove or disprove this but I have always had the feeling that when it's 'money time' on national TV the Sox don't play well. Tonight would have been a tremendous moment to make a statement. When they went up 2-0, I thought 'maybe'....then Hunter did his thing and the momentum got completely sucked away.

Like him or not, Hunter's a terriffic player.

I hope the Sox can do better against Millwood then last Wednesday. I noticed the Tigers had no trouble tatooing Westbrook all over Comerica yesterday and he baffled the Sox except for the one run.

I'm happy I guess that they won the series but a sweep would have been very nice. It'll be hard I think to take another series from Cleveland with their home opener and all but we'll see.

Lip

RKMeibalane
04-10-2005, 11:20 PM
yeah, thats what ive been saying and being criticized for it. I agree with Deuce

I agree, as well. I'm sick and tired of watching this team fall flat on its face every season. Like him or not, Kenny Williams has worked his ass off to put a contending team on the field. The Sox cannot afford to lose games because of botched plays (Joe Crede) or choke-jobs (Shingo Takatsu).

I would be willing to give Joe Crede the benefit of the doubt if his defensive problems were masked somewhat by his productivity at the plate. By the same token, I could overlook his problems offensively if he were playing well defensively. In other words, I would be willing to let him off the hook if he were contributing to the ballclub, but that's not happening. It seems as though Murphy's Law rears its ugly head every time Joe Crede sets foot on a baseball diamond.

voodoochile
04-10-2005, 11:20 PM
Fake Chet Lemon says: "We complain we get no respect nationally. But overall we never seem to play our best ball when we get that national stage."

I don't have the stats to prove or disprove this but I have always had the feeling that when it's 'money time' on national TV the Sox don't play well. Tonight would have been a tremendous moment to make a statement. When they went up 2-0, I thought 'maybe'....then Hunter did his thing and the momentum got completely sucked away.

Like him or not, Hunter's a terriffic player.

I hope the Sox can do better against Millwood then last Wednesday. I noticed the Tigers had no trouble tatooing Westbrook all over Comerica yesterday and he baffled the Sox except for the one run.

I'm happy I guess that they won the series but a sweep would have been very nice. It'll be hard I think to take another series from Cleveland with their home opener and all but we'll see.

Lip

The Sox have won every home opener they've played in so far, I see no reason to stop now...

Good night all...

GO SOX!

mealfred13
04-10-2005, 11:21 PM
"Man, way too much Crede-hating going on around here. He attempted to make a diving stop on a hard-hit ball and did whatever he could to knock it down. It's just too bad that it deflected away from Uribe.

I think Joe is trying too hard to be perfect on the field and sometimes things like that will happen.

That notwithstanding, Crede didn't put 2 runners on base, and Crede didn't throw 3 straight balls to Torii Hunter. Crede also wasn't responsible for not putting Torii on when the count was 3-0 with first base open. Say what you want about this game, but don't blame the loss on Crede.

Buehrle was doing pretty well and got out of some tough jams, but if he walks Torii on the 3-0 pitch, he gets a fresh count against Lew Ford, who's been grounding out to short quite a bit. Torii should have been put on, period. Worst case, Ford takes Buehrle yard and we lose by 4 instead of 3, but that's no excuse for throwing a meatball on a 3-0 count with 2 men in scoring position and 1st base open."


I reposted that because it got lost early in the shuffle. Read it before you decide to make any more Crede sucks posts.

If I was watching the same game you were, why don't I see any "Buehrle SUCKS!" posts. All those people posting "Crede Sucks" would probably have been posting "Garland Sucks" if he had given up the 3-run long ball. If you're gonna single someone out today for leading to this loss, blame Buehrle, or better yet, Santana.

FightingBillini
04-10-2005, 11:23 PM
Like him or not, Hunter's a terriffic player.

No. No he's not. He is overrated and ESPN loves him because of his big mouth. He is very good defensively (not even the best CF despite they hype), but he is a bad hitter. He always comes through agaisnt the Sox though.

SABRSox
04-10-2005, 11:24 PM
The Sox lost because they let Santana get into a rythym. You have to consistently get to him, by fouling off pitches, getting bloop singles, whatever it takes. When he K's 7 or 8 in a span of 3 innings, forget about it.

That said, I also think that the Crede bashing is acceptable. Just because this is 2005 does not mean that 2004 and 2003 never happened. This guy has a record of sub-par play, and I for one don't want to spend half a season waiting for the Sox to figure it out. He either gets better fast or we move on. His window is just about passed.

oeo
04-10-2005, 11:24 PM
I agree, as well. I'm sick and tired of watching this team fall flat on its face every season. Like him or not, Kenny Williams has worked his ass off to put a contending team on the field. The Sox cannot afford to lose games because of botched plays (Joe Crede) or choke-jobs (Shingo Takatsu).

I would be willing to give Joe Crede the benefit of the doubt if his defensive problems were masked somewhat by his productivity at the plate. By the same token, I could overlook his problems offensively if he were playing well defensively. In other words, I would be willing to let him off the hook if he were contributing to the ballclub, but that's not happening. It seems as though Murphy's Law rears its ugly head every time Joe Crede sets foot on a baseball diamond.

Once again, though, Joe Crede lost this game? Who was on the mound, who threw that cookie to Torii Hunter?? How many runs did we score? Who totally owned us at the plate? Yet we blame the game on someone who tried to make a great play and if he would have made it, he would have been praised for his great defense.

CWSGuy406
04-10-2005, 11:25 PM
its not just that he blew a good play tonight. i've never seen him do anything good. sure he'll have a few homers once and a while but in general, he sucks
Josh Fields!!

Josh Fields is at least one and a half years away. He needs to gain a better grasp of the strike zone at Birmingham this year, there's no need to rush him at all. It's silly of you to say that, really...

samram
04-10-2005, 11:26 PM
How sure are we that Ozuna is better than he is?

Is anyone else in the organization really ready for the job?

Should we give the guy at least a few weeks (or at least until the Sox are no longer taking 2 our of every 3 in every series and sitting in first) before calling for his head?

sweet merciful crap...

Yeah, I would like to see more than one game of Pablo Ozuna before he's annointed the third baseman of the future. I doubt Lou Gehrig struck out twice the day he subbed for Wally Pipp.

FightingBillini
04-10-2005, 11:27 PM
3-run bombs box score from 4/10/2005, Minneapolis Roller Dome:

Twins: 1

Sox: 0

Total runs scored box score from 4/10/2005 Minneapolis Roller Dome:

Twins: 5

Sox: 2

I can. I did. I'm right.

Solid arguement! Even though we will hitat least 25 more homers than the Twins this year, the fact that they hit one today proves that we have no power?

:kukoo:

TaylorStSox
04-10-2005, 11:28 PM
Josh Fields is at least one and a half years away. He needs to gain a better grasp of the strike zone at Birmingham this year, there's no need to rush him at all. It's silly of you to say that, really...

He needs to improve in the field too.

I hate the Crede bashing. If this guy hits .030 higher this year, he's Joe Randa with more power. He's not great. He's a heck of a ballplayer though. I think Crede can and will hit at least .265 this year. Relax.

If it isn't Crede, it's going to be somebody else. So, I guess it really doesn't matter.

Actually, I forgot about the incredible amount of PK bashing a couple years ago. I guess I should have expected this.

Mohoney
04-10-2005, 11:30 PM
Is he scott rolen at the plate? No. But he gets his hits. He had a double tonight and started a rally last night with a hit. Get off him.

If he's hovering under .240 with an OBP under .300 at the trade deadline, I want a new 3rd baseman that will do better. End of debate.

I'm willing to give him three or four months to show some tangible improvement at the plate. I just think that .250+ with a .333+ OBP isn't too much to ask, and if Crede isn't providing it, then upgrade this position at the deadline.

shoota
04-10-2005, 11:30 PM
Crede supporters:

Point #1: Shingo couldn't hold a 3-run lead and lost us a game. Crede did less to hurt this team today but gets 10x the criticism. It's not that we're biased for Shingo and against Crede, it's that Shingo has a great sample size of success with the White Sox. Crede's sample size is nothing but bad over a time period more than twice as long as Shingo's.

Buehrle gave up a 3-run home run tonight after Crede's defensive error allowed the inning to continue. Buehrle gets little criticism because he never would have been in the position to give up the homer if it wasn't for Crede's error, and because Buehrle has done much to help the Sox win over the years and little to hurt the Sox.

Point #2: Criticizing Crede is not based on a 6-game sample size. He has played two full seasons prior to the 6 games of this season. Thus, it is not too early to say he is hurting this team. We're not looking for a scapegoat, though we are looking for a new 3bman. :cool:

Jjav829
04-10-2005, 11:32 PM
This thread is ridiculous. Are people really blaming Joe Crede for the entire loss? You gotta be ****ing kidding me! The whole team sucked! No one was perfect out there.

Buehrle started off fine. Then he couldn't throw a strike and got himself into trouble. He was as big a part of this loss as anyone on the team.

I don't blame Crede for that play. He can't assume Uribe has a chance at that ball. He stumbled on a ball that was in his territory. Not wanting the ball to get into the OF, he tried to knock it down. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's certainly not the reason we lost.

I give Crede credit for being one of the few guys to learn a lesson. Santana was great from about the 3rd inning on. I can't even remember how many K's were recorded on low-and-away changes. Crede was the only hitter that seemed to understand this and sit on it. It led to a double. Good for him.

Who looks worse at the plate right now: Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand or Juan Uribe? They all look absolutely awful right now. I think my vote would actually go to Juan Uribe. He looks completely clueless at the plate. If we're going to give someone on the left side of the infield a day off, I vote for Juan Uribe.

Lastly, the umps were awful. I was extremely pissed during most of this game but it got to the point where the calls were so ridiculous I just laughed and threw my hands up. Let me emphasize, I am not blaming the umps for this loss. We sucked and the Twins deserved to win. They played better. But the umps were as bad as the Sox tonight.

ma_deuce
04-10-2005, 11:35 PM
How sure are we that Ozuna is better than he is?

I'm not. But I know Crede isn't doing the job, so why not take a chance. The worst thing that can happen is that we put Crede back on third.

Should we give the guy at least a few weeks (or at least until the Sox are no longer taking 2 our of every 3 in every series and sitting in first) before calling for his head?

I am no Chicken Little. Four and two against our division rivals is a great start. But I want a title. So far, our only title is "the team that finished second to the Twins for the last three years." Changing that will require a concerted effort by the whole team. Is Crede trying? Sure. But is he succeeding?

IMHO, the answer is an unequivocal "no." Enough is enough. He was terrible last year. He was terrible in Spring Training. And in a matter of six games, he has managed to drive half of this board bonkers with his failings. I'm tired of waiting for this guy to come into his own. The writing is on the wall...

:crede = :hitless

...and you guys know how I feel about ole' Royce.

OEO Magglio
04-10-2005, 11:36 PM
Man, I feel bad for Joe, I really do. He tripped and he tried keeping the ball on the infield it hit his bare hand and it didn't work, things like this happen over a 162 game season. Today was just one of the those days, santana was in a groove, the umps were awful, the defense all together wasn't there today. Everyone, the sox have won their first 2 series, are 4 and 2, and are in sole possesion of first, take a step back for a bit. All you can do about tonight is move on and hope Freddy beats the heck out of the tribe tomorrow.

cburns
04-10-2005, 11:37 PM
All I can say after reading 9 pages of this thread is that I'm sick of hearing about Crede. I'm also sick of seeing members of WSI fight and bitch about Crede. Santana just had a good game tonight plain and simple.

Viva Medias B's
04-10-2005, 11:39 PM
This was only Game 6, and Loss No. 2. As disappointed as I am that we lost tonight, I am not going to panic. I did not see the game because of work, but it sounds like Mark Buehrle was not Mark Buehrle tonight.

ma_deuce
04-10-2005, 11:40 PM
This was only Game 6, and Loss No. 2. As disappointed as I am that we lost tonight, I am not going to panic. I did not see the game because of work, but it sounds like Mark Buehrle was not Mark Buehrle tonight.

More like Joe Crede was Joe Crede.

Fake Chet Lemon
04-10-2005, 11:43 PM
Attention Crede lovers: People aren't down on him SOLELY over tonight's game. It's his overall body of work. Overall, not good. Yes he tries hard, but so would I if Ozzie would put me on the field. I'd try really, really, really hard. But I would still suck.

mealfred13
04-10-2005, 11:43 PM
Point #2: Criticizing Crede is not based on a 6-game sample size. He has played two full seasons prior to the 6 games of this season. Thus, it is not too early to say he is huring this team.

And over the past 2 seasons, Crede has proven that he won't be hurting us with his glove which is what everyone is going ape**** about.

He's one of the best defensive third basemen in the league and I'm not about to jump on the bandwagon of "replace Crede" because it's hard to replace a glove like that. And from my standpoint, I'll take Crede's 60 RBIs and ~20HR along with his stellar glove over a mediocre defensive third baseman with a better bat.

That said, Crede is starting to look better at the plate, and had a nice hit off Santana today, which was one more than Konerko, Rowand, and Dye combined. When he shows us that he can't perform in clutch situations over the next couple months or so, then maybe I'll get on the Replace Joe bandwagon, but surely not if we don't have a suitable defensive replacement at 3rd. And before anyone else says we should bring Fields in already, he is nowhere near Joe's level as far as defense goes, and his hitting is not yet major-league ready.

Shorty1983
04-10-2005, 11:47 PM
Next time create a post game thread as a general and leave the excuses in the posts. We lost, it's not a big deal. We went up against the best in the league and Buehrle didn't have his A game on today. Mark had the bases loaded and threw one bad pitch, things like that are going to happen. No one should point the finger at Crede for throwing the game that we never won. Everyone saw how dominant Santana was once he settled in the 3rd inning. Granted the strike zone kept changing every inning, Santana had the edge and we let him get that rhythm going. You win some, you loose some.

ChiSox7
04-10-2005, 11:47 PM
I'm excited because Iguchi looks damn good, as does the starting pitching. If we take 2 of 3 in Cleveland it could be a really successful start against division opponents.

Iguchi leads the team in BA in his first week in the majors against some really good pitching. That's pretty exciting.

Now if Joe, Aaron and Uribe could only get going.

Mohoney
04-10-2005, 11:48 PM
And from my standpoint, I'll take Crede's 60 RBIs and ~20HR along with his stellar glove over a mediocre defensive third baseman with a better bat.

But what if it's a WAY better (.050-.075 BA, 10+ HR, 30+ RBI) bat?

Then we would have the best of both worlds in our lineup, with another big bopper to compliment the table setters.

Jjav829
04-10-2005, 11:50 PM
But what if it's a WAY better (.050-.075 BA, 10+ HR, 30+ RBI) bat?

Then we would have the best of both worlds in our lineup, with another big bopper to compliment the table setters.

So where are we getting this much better bat? I keep asking for a name, but no one can gave me one. We're not getting an Eric Chavez, Scott Rolen, Aramis Ramirez, Melvin Mora, etc. Where's the realistic option?

Soxzilla
04-10-2005, 11:51 PM
All right. When Crede comes through in the clutch about 5 times this year to win games, don't say a word about it. when he makes a game saving defensive play time after time, just shut up. If he ends up hitting .300 with 25 bombs, don't jump on the bandwagon.

Until he does it, I can talk. He cost us quite a bit in that game, I'm not saying he is the sole reason we lost that game, and had he made that play on Lecroy's grounder we would have won, but we sure as heck would have had a better chance.

And you can keep the seat on that bandwagon, I will never want any part of it.

Trade this bust for a bag of balls already.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2005, 11:51 PM
Attention Crede lovers: People aren't down on him SOLELY over tonight's game. It's his overall body of work. Overall, not good. Yes he tries hard, but so would I if Ozzie would put me on the field. I'd try really, really, really hard. But I would still suck.

Thank you. After two-plus seasons of waiting for Joe Crede to get it going, I have yet to see anything (other than spurts) that indicates that Joe Crede is ready to become the player everyone thought he would be when he made his debut three seasons ago. I don't expect Crede hit fifty home runs every season. That's not his game. He's more like Robin Ventura than he is Frank Thomas. That's fine. Every player is different.

What I can't live with are his ridiculous hitting slumps. Every ****ing year he has a streak of 1-19, 2-27, etc. It's getting old. The Sox cannot sit around waiting for Frank Thomas to show up and save the day. He's not capable of doing that. Every player on the roster needs to contribute if the Sox want to reach the post-season. That's what happened in 2000. That's what's needed in 2005. When Crede starts hitting ball and making plays defensively, I'll leave him alone. Until then, I'm going to bitch and moan nonstop, at least until my post gets sent to the ****house because I went too far. :cool:

mealfred13
04-10-2005, 11:53 PM
So where are we getting this much better bat? I keep asking for a name, but no one can gave me one. We're not getting an Eric Chavez, Scott Rolen, Aramis Ramirez, Melvin Mora, etc. Where's the realistic option?

That's exactly my point as well. There aren't that many defensively solid 3rd baseman available who can also crush the ball. And Crede has proven his glove is solid over the past couple years, and you can't knock him for the loss today. Buehrle served up a meatball when he should have gave Torii the base with a 3 ball count. It's as simple as that.

ChiSoxRowand
04-10-2005, 11:53 PM
Crede has sucked so far this year and has sucked the past 2 years, but you can't blame him for the loss. Don't forget Rowand's bad throw to second. Buehrle didn't have his best game tonight either. It didn't help that the home plate umpire screwed us tonight either. There are 3 bad called strikes that I can think of off the top of my head. 1) The third strike call on Willie in the 9th. That pitch was four inches outside. 2) The third strike call on Dye in the 8th. 3) A called strike on Everett late in the game. As for Crede, I am not ready to give up on him after one week. But if he keeps this up I would like to see Ozuna in there. This is also the last year Crede will be on this team with the fact that Boras is his agent.

A. Cavatica
04-10-2005, 11:53 PM
I saw the game without audio and without anyone else to influence my opinion. Here's how it looked.

We choked. We had an opportunity to beat Santana and sweep the Twins at home on national TV, and we just choked. This is a team that seldom rises to the occasion, and all that chest-thumping yesterday seems embarrassingly premature.
Buehrle is to blame for this loss. Apart from the two consecutive double-play grounders he induced in the fifth, and the LeCroy strikeout (only his second), he didn't make his own luck. He was behind the hitters all night long and let the leadoff man on several times. He got behind Hunter 3-0 and then threw a creampuff.
This Twins lineup, with an infield of Cuddyer-Castro-Rivas-LeCroy, Miller catching, and Mauer-LeCroy as the third & fourth place hitters, sucked. Lew Ford has already embarked on a huge sophomore slump. MB should be embarrassed that this lineup scored five runs.

The strike zone was awful, with the ump taking away the outside corner and calling strikes that were way inside. There were a few exceptions where he called pitches on the outer edge strikes, and they all seemed to go the Twins' way. This is probably just because Santana was putting the ball where he wanted it and Buehrle wasn't.
The grounder that Crede tipped away from Uribe was a fluke -- just not Crede's fault. That ball gets by most third basemen. Most shortstops have less range than Uribe and wouldn't be directly behind Crede if he does tip the ball.
That play did take the steam out of the Sox. After that the defense collapsed. Iguchi made a couple of awful throws, Rowand made (probably) his worst throw of the season, Konerko couldn't scoop or stretch for anything, Politte and Pierzynski looked like the Keystone Kops...ugh.
Torii Hunter mocks us again. Wouldn't it have been easier to give him an intentional pass (via a fastball in the earhole) one of those at-bats? I can't believe we still have not exacted revenge for the Jamie Burke incident.
Ozzie should never start Ozuna in left again. Not that he was bad; he was actually good, and he got us that first run. But with four of the infielders in the game (and batting consecutively!) the pinch-hitting options are very limited. Podsednik for Crede was OK because Ozuna could move to third and Pods to left, but pinch-hitting Harris for Uribe was nuts, both offensively and defensively. Either Harris or Iguchi would've been forced to play short, and losing Uribe made it impossible to pinch-hit for Ozuna.
Small ball worked for us early, but after we got behind we reverted to the same plodding wait-for-the-home-run offense. I never have confidence in the Sox' ability to whittle away at a 3- or 4-run lead and make a game of it. If they don't get the homers, they're cooked.

SluggersAway
04-10-2005, 11:55 PM
JJav wins the quote of the thread today, although voodoo was close, his explanation about sums it up. If crede wasnt on the team, people in the crowd would have to invent him.

Buerhle did his fair share to lose this game as did the power hitters in our line up as well as the umpire behind home plate. Tough loss. Let's hope the team gets some sleep tonight and is refreshed and ready for tomorrow.

This thread is ridiculous. Are people really blaming Joe Crede for the entire loss? You gotta be ****ing kidding me! The whole team sucked! No one was perfect out there.

Buehrle started off fine. Then he couldn't throw a strike and got himself into trouble. He was as big a part of this loss as anyone on the team.

I don't blame Crede for that play. He can't assume Uribe has a chance at that ball. He stumbled on a ball that was in his territory. Not wanting the ball to get into the OF, he tried to knock it down. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's certainly not the reason we lost.

I give Crede credit for being one of the few guys to learn a lesson. Santana was great from about the 3rd inning on. I can't even remember how many K's were recorded on low-and-away changes. Crede was the only hitter that seemed to understand this and sit on it. It led to a double. Good for him.

Who looks worse at the plate right now: Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand or Juan Uribe? They all look absolutely awful right now. I think my vote would actually go to Juan Uribe. He looks completely clueless at the plate. If we're going to give someone on the left side of the infield a day off, I vote for Juan Uribe.

Lastly, the umps were awful. I was extremely pissed during most of this game but it got to the point where the calls were so ridiculous I just laughed and threw my hands up. Let me emphasize, I am not blaming the umps for this loss. We sucked and the Twins deserved to win. They played better. But the umps were as bad as the Sox tonight.

The Wimperoo
04-10-2005, 11:57 PM
This thread is ridiculous. Are people really blaming Joe Crede for the entire loss? You gotta be ****ing kidding me! The whole team sucked! No one was perfect out there.

Buehrle started off fine. Then he couldn't throw a strike and got himself into trouble. He was as big a part of this loss as anyone on the team.

I don't blame Crede for that play. He can't assume Uribe has a chance at that ball. He stumbled on a ball that was in his territory. Not wanting the ball to get into the OF, he tried to knock it down. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's certainly not the reason we lost.

I give Crede credit for being one of the few guys to learn a lesson. Santana was great from about the 3rd inning on. I can't even remember how many K's were recorded on low-and-away changes. Crede was the only hitter that seemed to understand this and sit on it. It led to a double. Good for him.

Who looks worse at the plate right now: Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand or Juan Uribe? They all look absolutely awful right now. I think my vote would actually go to Juan Uribe. He looks completely clueless at the plate. If we're going to give someone on the left side of the infield a day off, I vote for Juan Uribe.

Lastly, the umps were awful. I was extremely pissed during most of this game but it got to the point where the calls were so ridiculous I just laughed and threw my hands up. Let me emphasize, I am not blaming the umps for this loss. We sucked and the Twins deserved to win. They played better. But the umps were as bad as the Sox tonight.

Besides Voodoo's, this is probably the most intelligent post in this thread.

Uribe looks terrible at the dish. Let's get rid of him!! He sucks!!!

MRKARNO
04-10-2005, 11:58 PM
The Sox lost because they let Santana get into a rythym. You have to consistently get to him, by fouling off pitches, getting bloop singles, whatever it takes. When he K's 7 or 8 in a span of 3 innings, forget about it.

That said, I also think that the Crede bashing is acceptable. Just because this is 2005 does not mean that 2004 and 2003 never happened. This guy has a record of sub-par play, and I for one don't want to spend half a season waiting for the Sox to figure it out. He either gets better fast or we move on. His window is just about passed.

Good points. Santana was in his rhythm and the White Sox hitters didnt do enough to screw it up.

MRKARNO
04-10-2005, 11:59 PM
.

I concur with all points that you made.

Whitesox029
04-11-2005, 12:02 AM
Two runs just isnt going to do it.
You've got to be kidding me on this one buddy. You aren't satisfied with two runs against the reigning Cy Young award winner? There were extenuating circumstances that unfortunately led to our giving up 5 runs, on which I will not comment. It won't happen next time.

A. Cavatica
04-11-2005, 12:03 AM
I concur with all points that you made.

How about this one: we should always start Contreras against Santana. The reason being that Contreras is so all-or-nothing that he gives us a chance to win if he's "on" and it's just a throwaway if he's not.

oeo
04-11-2005, 12:12 AM
BTW: We didn't sweep because MeanFish claimed we were going to sweep on Friday.

I told you I was going straight to you! :D:

Mohoney
04-11-2005, 12:13 AM
So where are we getting this much better bat? I keep asking for a name, but no one can gave me one. We're not getting an Eric Chavez, Scott Rolen, Aramis Ramirez, Melvin Mora, etc. Where's the realistic option?

I think that Aubrey Huff will be moved at the deadline. He would definitely qualify as a much better bat, plus he's going to fit right in with a lefty bat in the #5 hole to give Konerko great protection (along with Frank in the #3 hole when he gets back), break up any right handed monotony that would exist if Dye or Rowand bat #5, and make the bottom of the lineup that much stronger.

This lineup, in my opinion, would run away with this division:

1 Podsednik
2 Iguchi
3 Thomas
4 Konerko
5 Huff
6 Dye
7 Rowand
8 Pierzynski
9 Uribe (Jjav, you're exactly right. This guy needs to get it in gear, too.)

If the price is McCarthy, then forget about it and live with Crede. If Huff isn't hitting his customary .300, then forget about it and live with Crede. But if Huff is being shopped, and Tampa Bay will take lesser prospects in exchange for us picking up all of his contract, then maybe a package of Crede, a minor league pitcher other than McCarthy, and a minor league outfielder can get him.

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 12:14 AM
OK, here is what I took from the game...

1) I realize Crede didn't want to make that unofficial error. He was trying hard to get to the ball and he tripped. The problem is, that is a routine play for a major league third baseman. He should have made it, and probably would 99 out of 100 times, especially with the speedster LeCroiux lumbering down the basepath. It just so happens that it came in a close game. I have generally supported Crede, and I believe (and hope) he will break out this year. He made good adjustments in his last at bat. I wasn't one of the people piling on in the "crede sucks" thread because its early in the year, and he will improve. Even if he hits .275 he will be worth having in the lineup. Afterall, that is what the great Torii Hunter hits. I hope he puts it together this year, because I just know that if he becomes a free agent he will go to another team and becoming Adrian Beltre. I can hear that moron Harold Reynolds now "Crede is amazing. How could the White Sox get rid of this guy?! Kenny Williams should be fired."

2) Buehrle didn't have his stuff today. That is very encouraging to me because he still pitched a solid game. If Crede or Uribe makes that play in the 3rd, Buehrle only gives up 1 run and the Sox win. MB didn't have his good stuff, and he was still able to get guys out. I believe Buehrle will win the Cy Young this year, and force the ESPN morons to recognize him.

3)Its early, but Iguchi is looking great so far. Though he wont hit over .400 the whole year, he should be able to hit .375 or so. He got 2 hits off of Santana. He is still adjusting. I am surprised that he didn't back up first on Politte's error in the 8th, but he is normally fundamentally sound. Even the ESPN broadcasters were commenting him.

4)The hitting hasn't been there yet. Rowand and Uribe haven't hit at all yet, but they will come around. With the offensive talent on this team, we will be fine.

5)The Sox have been hot so far. That is especially encouraging when you look at the circumstances. The last few years, whenever the Sox got hot it was because their power hitters were all hitting at the same time. They would go on streaks where they were crushing the ball and scoring 10 runs a game. It didnt matter who was pitching (except the 5th starter), the Sox would win because they outscored everybody. So far, the Sox havent hit. They will hit, but they havent so far. The Sox have won 4 games so far because of their pitching. This is the best pitching staff on the south side in years. When the offense comes out of its slump, we will be all that much more dangerous. This could be a very special season for the Sox.

MRKARNO
04-11-2005, 12:25 AM
How about this one: we should always start Contreras against Santana. The reason being that Contreras is so all-or-nothing that he gives us a chance to win if he's "on" and it's just a throwaway if he's not.

No because if Buehrle had replicated his opening day start then we'd all be sitting here talking about how he outdueled Johan and how pitching is the word of the day. I'd take my chances with Mark any day of the week.

A. Cavatica
04-11-2005, 12:33 AM
4)The hitting hasn't been there yet. Rowand and Uribe haven't hit at all yet, but they will come around. With the offensive talent on this team, we will be fine.

The hitting hasn't been there to the tune of a .277 team on-base percentage through six games, second lowest in baseball. And Konerko, Everett, and Iguchi will eventually tail off.

Ozzie's career OBP was .287. What if this is "Ozzieball" in full flower? If the hitting doesn't bounce back within, oh, two more series then I'll be very worried.

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 12:50 AM
The hitting hasn't been there to the tune of a .277 team on-base percentage through six games, second lowest in baseball. And Konerko, Everett, and Iguchi will eventually tail off.

Ozzie's career OBP was .287. What if this is "Ozzieball" in full flower? If the hitting doesn't bounce back within, oh, two more series then I'll be very worried.
:chickenlittle
Great job on the bold predictions that Iguchi wont hit .400 and Everett and Konerko wont hit .350.

Ozzie's physical abilities has no reflection on his managing style. This team is built to win moreso than the last several years. The offense is better and balanced. We still have lots of power, and now we have better hitters. How many hitters on our team have a career OBP as low as .287? Yeah, thats what I thought. The offense will be fine. This week's wont continue the whole year. Also, we most likely wont win 4 out of every 6 games. Calm down.

samram
04-11-2005, 12:52 AM
The hitting hasn't been there to the tune of a .277 team on-base percentage through six games, second lowest in baseball. And Konerko, Everett, and Iguchi will eventually tail off.

Ozzie's career OBP was .287. What if this is "Ozzieball" in full flower? If the hitting doesn't bounce back within, oh, two more series then I'll be very worried.

So the guys who are hot will tail off, but the guys off to a slow start will not recover?

depy48
04-11-2005, 12:53 AM
i agree... a lot of hometown strikes called today... pissed me off

faneidde
04-11-2005, 01:02 AM
Wow, 160+ posts and there are only like 5 points made in those whole damn thread.
1. Crede Sucks
2. No He Doesn't
3. At least we won the series
4. Crede Cost us the Game
5. No He Didn't
I think its safe to say...
:threadsucks

mealfred13
04-11-2005, 01:08 AM
Wow, 160+ posts and there are only like 5 points made in those whole damn thread.
1. Crede Sucks
2. No He Doesn't
3. At least we won the series
4. Crede Cost us the Game
5. No He Didn't
I think its safe to say...
:threadsucks

Can't say I disagree, but what you expect to happen with a thread title like that...

JB98
04-11-2005, 01:14 AM
Pablo Ozuna is a 30-year-old career minor leaguer. But, he had a good spring so clearly he is the answer at third base.

I can't believe people are ready to get rid of Crede six games into the season. He was one of the few to solve Santana's change-up late in the game. That double to right-center was good hitting. Yes, that missed play on LeCroy was upsetting. The rest of the inning was Buerhle's fault.

I challenge anyone to come up with an alternative to Crede. I'm sure I'll get stupid responses, like bringing up Fields when he isn't ready. Or trading Willie Harris to Milwaukee for worthless Wes Helms.

Why does everyone get their panties in a bunch about losing a game on ESPN? Yes, their experts will continue to count us out. But Harold Reynolds and John Kruk don't play the games, so who cares what they say?

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 01:23 AM
Can't say I disagree, but what you expect to happen with a thread title like that...
First of all, I stand by the title of my thread. Congrats to me on my first thread with over 100 responses.:bandance:

However, that's what these boards are for. It was a routine play at third, and Crede tripped over his own feet. Bsides that, Buehrle should have made better pitches to Hunter, and didnt. He shouldnt have put the runners on in the first place. Reguardless, that is a play Crede NEEDS to make, and probably would make 99 out of 100 times. Thus far in his professional career, Crede has blown. If he didnt play "great" defense, KW wouldnt still be giving him a chance. If he is going to hit .239 again this year, he is gonna have to make less than 2 errors in a week. That being said, I believe he will improve this year. I hope that come July, I will start a thread proclaming "crede doesnt blow".

spiffie
04-11-2005, 01:36 AM
I don't know what would happen to the people here if they were surrounded by Crede. He's a pretty big guy. :redneck

As long as no one stood still I think we'd all be fine. If the last few years have taught us anything it's that Crede can't hit anything :tongue:

And I wanted to get rid of Crede this offseason. The fact that we're six games into the year just means I've had to see him in a Sox uniform six more times than I would have liked to going into this year.

D. TODD
04-11-2005, 01:53 AM
Crede slipped on a ball, that he would have made with time to throw out LeCroy, costing the Sox a run, this is true. It happens, Hunter then goes yard bringing in three more runs adding insult to injury. Crede played a excellent game defensively overall though, and the Crede bashing for this loss is misplaced in my opinion. Let's just go win another series on the road against a division opponent, and I will be more then happy.

Cowch44
04-11-2005, 03:03 AM
Reading all these posts makes me think. What if we had come back and won? Would there be all this Crede hatred? Probably not.

ma_deuce
04-11-2005, 08:17 AM
Reading all these posts makes me think. What if we had come back and won? Would there be all this Crede hatred? Probably not.

Doubtful... Crede's failings go back 2 years. Whenever he falters, you can be sure to hear about it. Maybe not as loudly as when we lose, but there is a strong contingent of nay sayers either way.

A. Cavatica
04-11-2005, 10:05 AM
So the guys who are hot will tail off, but the guys off to a slow start will not recover?

No, I didn't say that. I was responding to an argument that the team must improve because some guys are off to slow starts.

Jerko
04-11-2005, 10:18 AM
That ball wasn't hit that slowly, and Uribe had already made a play from deep short/shallow left field earlier in the game.
I'm very confident that Uribe gets him there.

I didn't read the entire thread so I don't know if this has been brought up, but Lecroy makes Konerko look fast. I won't blame the entire game on Crede, but with LeCroy running there is a chance that Uribe might have gotten him.

voodoochile
04-11-2005, 10:21 AM
Solid arguement! Even though we will hitat least 25 more homers than the Twins this year, the fact that they hit one today proves that we have no power?

:kukoo:

You really either need to quit drinking so much or learn how to read. I never said that...

jabrch
04-11-2005, 10:26 AM
Reading all these posts makes me think. What if we had come back and won? Would there be all this Crede hatred? Probably not.

Nah - there has been an anti-Crede faction for a while. He has yet to perform nearly as he did in the minors, or as he was projected to do at this level. So far, Crede is a bust. The book isn't closed on him - but it might be closing fast.

Iwritecode
04-11-2005, 11:00 AM
It was a routine play at third

I think this single thought right here is the cause of most of the arguing in this thread.

IMO, there was no way that was a routine play even if Crede didn't trip. If there was a lesser 3rd baseman (say Valentin) there's no way he even gets a hand on the ball. I think it's amazing he even got to it.

Also, I agree with all the other points already made in this thread.
1. Burly should have just walked Toriiiiii when he was 3 - 0.
2. Burly was off and still managed to pitch a pretty decent game.
3. Santana had a very generous strikezone. I'm reminded of the game a few years ago against Pedro when one of the Sox coaches layed the towel on the dugout steps to imply how big the strikezone was for Pedro. :(:
4. We still managed to win 2 of 3 and are still in first place!

DaleJRFan
04-11-2005, 11:06 AM
Crede said in the postgame that he lost it in the chalk.

Players make errors every once in a while. Give the guy a break. The game was still winnable at 5-2, but the bats were silenced by a superior pitcher. It's not Crede's fault.

Bucky F. Dent
04-11-2005, 11:17 AM
Hey, so long as we contine to win each series, I'll have no complaints.

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 12:09 PM
You really either need to quit drinking so much or learn how to read. I never said that...
You said the lack of power killed us... how am I supposed to take that?

voodoochile
04-11-2005, 12:13 PM
You said the lack of power killed us... how am I supposed to take that?

I said the lack of power IN THIS GAME! I pointed out that I was only talking about THIS GAME. In THIS GAME the Twins hit a 3-run bomb and the Sox had no homeruns. So, in THIS GAME the deciding factor was that the Twins had more power and that is why they won THIS GAME. I kept repeating that phrase in every single post I made about THIS GAME, but you decided to take my comments about THIS GAME and extend it to some weird statement about the entire season when all I was talking about was THIS GAME.

If you don't believe me, go back and reread my posts about THIS GAME in THIS VERY POST GAME THREAD.

Reading comprehension is a skill...

balke
04-11-2005, 12:27 PM
I like the hunger to win every game as a White Sox fan, but 6 games into the season, and screaming about our 3rd baseman isn't very constructive. The Fing play wasn't even listed as an error BECAUSE IT WASN'T! He did hit a double that game, and he's playing his heart out there. That was a great attempt to keep torii from stealing, that didn't get called his way.


We just faced Santana, Rincon, Nathan. Its as simple as that. They will get many wins out of that spot. We could have won that game, but didn't. Let's move forward, and add more posts to the postives thread you whiners.

LVSoxFan
04-11-2005, 01:09 PM
Two out of three from the Twins is just fine with me. So we lost against their best pitcher and the best pitcher in MLB? Still fine with me. I hate to lose, but up until Torii Hunter's bomb, we were playing our textbook version of "smart" ball. Iguchi had two hits already.

Crede's play was bad but I'm not ready to hang him just yet. He also managed to field a shot down the 3B line and throw out a runner who should have been safe, so he lost one and he got one. Even.

Buehrle was having an off night; he didn't have any control. It happens.

The previous two victories were a good sign; let's keep it up.

Lip Man 1
04-11-2005, 01:35 PM
Voodoo:

The Sox home opener and the Twins home opener weren't on national TV via ESPN or Fox. I think that's the point that Fake was making.

I don't have the numbers to say yes or no but I do remember games like the rain shortened one versus the Mariners on Sunday night two years ago (I think it was two years) The M's blew the Sox away, the weather was lousy, no one was in the stands and Miller and Morgan looked like they wanted no part of ever coming back to the South Side again. I do know that the Sox used to be a regular stop via ESPN for Sunday night baseball back in the early 90's, with at least a home game every season. That stopped around 98 and has never been the same.

When the chances for national exposure come along you have to take advantage of them if the organization wants a higher profile...easier said then done of course but that's the reality of things.

Lip

CubKiller5
04-11-2005, 01:35 PM
It's a shame that of all the plays I had to miss it would be that one.
They didn't even show it in the ESPN highlights. Just from what I'm reading here it's a play that cost us an extra out & Hunter of course made us pay for that with the HR.

Uribe had been playing SS as good as any one up to that play. Crede on the other hand had looked poorly since the start of the season. He didn't look particularly good in ST w the glove either. There was good speed aboard but a slow foot at the plate. I think if he had to do it over he would let Uribe make the play.

I'm more upset that Iguchi didn't score from 3rd on Pauly's SF earlier. He's got good speed & it seems to me at worst it's a close play & at best he scores easily. It would have taken a perfect throw by Torri to get him. I think you risk it. The team so far hasn't been lighting the fire in getting those timely hits to get him in otherwise.

Did it make the difference in the game? Who knows. Both plays would have been momentum shifters. If Iggy scores earlier maybe Marks' throwing with more confidence. If Uribe throws LeCroy out maybe Santana doesn't pitch as well for the next 3 innings being 3 runs behind.

At least it was the players who lost this game & not the manager.
Plays like that are going to happen. I imagine with the new players on the Twins it's going to happen more against them than for them. I think if there is anything to come out of this it's that we won't face Santana again until after the break & that the Twins are going to have their share of struggles at the Metrodome this year. They just aren't as good defensively as they once were.

Overall the loss of Silva is going to hurt them much more than the delayed arrival of Thomas will hurt us. What's in the past stays in the past. There's no need to drag it into the future.

The 4-2 White Sox battle the 3-3 Indians. Let's play ball!

balke
04-11-2005, 01:40 PM
I'm more upset that Iguchi didn't score from 3rd on Pauly's SF earlier. He's got good speed & it seems to me at worst it's a close play & at best he scores easily. It would have taken a perfect throw by Torri to get him. I think you risk it. The team so far hasn't been lighting the fire in getting those timely hits to get him in otherwise.

Did it make the difference in the game? Who knows. Both plays would have been momentum shifters. If Iggy scores earlier maybe Marks' throwing with more confidence. If Uribe throws LeCroy out maybe Santana doesn't pitch as well for the next 3 innings being 3 runs behind.



Gooch would've been out by a mile. Torii was about 20 feet out of the infield, and is no slouch with his arm. I understand what you are saying, but Gooch had no chance there. Had he ran, we'd all be yelling at Joey Cora, or GOoch, trust me.

Ol' No. 2
04-11-2005, 01:48 PM
Wow. Crede cost us the game today.
That is a routine play. It should have been an error, and all 4 runs in the 3rd should have been unearned.

Other than that, Santana had out hitters clueless. He had a very generous strikezone. It was funny watching Joe Morgan trying to cover for the umps on pitches K Zone showed were like 6 inches outside "Uhh, there is like a 2 inch margin. Hitters dont like it, but thats ok". Buehrle looked good. Tough loss.A routine play? For who? That's a fantastic play if he makes it. Crede didn't lose this game. Buehrle lost this game. He pitched well, but not well enough. When you run that many batters to 3-0 and 3-1, sooner or later you're going to get burned, and he did.

TaylorStSox
04-11-2005, 01:51 PM
A routine play? For who? That's a fantastic play if he makes it. Crede didn't lose this game. Buehrle lost this game. He pitched well, but not well enough. When you run that many batters to 3-0 and 3-1, sooner or later you're going to get burned, and he did.

Agreed. It wasn't a routine play. He made the right move by trying to keep the ball in the infield. The knee jerk reaction of people here is what set me off.

LVSoxFan
04-11-2005, 01:54 PM
A routine play? For who? That's a fantastic play if he makes it. Crede didn't lose this game. Buehrle lost this game. He pitched well, but not well enough. When you run that many batters to 3-0 and 3-1, sooner or later you're going to get burned, and he did.

Here here. I think this is the truest statement. That, and you don't win games by scoring two runs or striking out 14 times.

Ol' No. 2
04-11-2005, 02:04 PM
Here here. I think this is the truest statement. That, and you don't win games by scoring two runs or striking out 14 times.Let's give a little credit to Santana. He was on his game last night, and when he's on, he's pretty tough for anyone to beat. Also, the Sox out-hit the Twins 8 to 7. The difference was really just the one bomb that Hunter hit. So all in all they played them pretty evenly last night. If Buehrle had had a good night, they might have won 2-1.

Paulwny
04-11-2005, 02:22 PM
Plenty of blame to go around besides Crede,

1) Konerko didn't bring in Iguchi from 3rd with less then 2 out in the 1st inning, we lead 2-0 instead of 1-0

2) Buehrle didn't have his best stuff

3) 4,5,6 hitters, 0 hits, 5k's in 10 ab's

4) Konerko left 4 on base
5) As mentioned by someone previously, they allowed Santana to get into a rhythm

MRKARNO
04-11-2005, 02:32 PM
Guess who's back in the lineup today?:

:crede

"I won't get booed because we're playing on the road today."

gosox41
04-11-2005, 02:34 PM
A routine play? For who? That's a fantastic play if he makes it. Crede didn't lose this game. Buehrle lost this game. He pitched well, but not well enough. When you run that many batters to 3-0 and 3-1, sooner or later you're going to get burned, and he did.

I think you're talking too much sense.:D:

Now let's get back to bashing Crede.


Bob

ma_deuce
04-11-2005, 02:39 PM
Now let's get back to bashing Crede.

That would imply that we stopped bashing... :redneck

CubKiller5
04-11-2005, 02:41 PM
Gooch would've been out by a mile. Torii was about 20 feet out of the infield, and is no slouch with his arm. I understand what you are saying, but Gooch had no chance there. Had he ran, we'd all be yelling at Joey Cora, or GOoch, trust me.

I agree Hunter has a good arm & is capable of making that play but we tossed this around this morning & the consensus was that Hunter just didn't field it in a good position to quickly launch an accurate throw.

We blame Cora. We feel Gooch should have been ready to do a full split & that Cora needed to make the call not just based on Hunter gloving it but where the catcher was to receive it. Our consensus was the catcher would have had to stretch back to make the tag because he was out of position in covering the play.

Some one mentioned it would have been good just to see Gooch try to run the guy over but that person didn't realize how small Gooch is. He looks bigger on TV :D

If we're passing out blame how about Ozzie? As the series played out it became apparent to me that the Twins are no where near as good defensively as they were with Coskie & Mienky at the corners. Why didn't we bunt more against Santana? LeCroy has yet to prove he can even field a bunt yet. I thought bunting was a big part of small ball. Ozuna gets on because again LeCroy & Santana can't field a weak hit that resembled a drag bunt. Why not do that more often?

For that matter why bench Podsednik before Crede? Because Crede's a RH? Scott is the best bunter on the team & I have more faith in his being able to get on with a bunt or patience at the plate than Crede getting a hit. I won't beat up Ozzie too much because he is learning. It's his 1st year with the guys he wanted so I expect there to be bumps in the road.

The best thing about baseball in April is that it's just one game. No one is going to remember this game come August. It's only impact will be the record. As long as Ozzie's learning how to better manage this team everything will be fine.

Ol' No. 2
04-11-2005, 02:46 PM
I agree Hunter has a good arm & is capable of making that play but we tossed this around this morning & the consensus was that Hunter just didn't field it in a good position to quickly launch an accurate throw.

We blame Cora. We feel Gooch should have been ready to do a full split & that Cora needed to make the call not just based on Hunter gloving it but where the catcher was to receive it. Our consensus was the catcher would have had to stretch back to make the tag because he was out of position in covering the play.

Some one mentioned it would have been good just to see Gooch try to run the guy over but that person didn't realize how small Gooch is. He looks bigger on TV :DYou must be kidding. Hunter had the ball in his glove as Iguchi was rounding 3rd. He would have been out by 10 feet.

CubKiller5
04-11-2005, 02:55 PM
You must be kidding. Hunter had the ball in his glove as Iguchi was rounding 3rd. He would have been out by 10 feet.

I think you're talking about a different play. I'm talking about the one where Gooch is already on 3rd & needing just a SF to score.

balke
04-11-2005, 03:06 PM
I don't know who "we" is, but I watched the game, and Gooch would've been out on the ball torii caught. I believe Carl hit a ball that Gooch had a better shot at getting home on the previous at-bat.

I wish I had that inning on tape or something, cause Torii caught that ball running forward in shallow center. Gooch was toast. The play previous I believe Carl hit a shot that put the outfielder (either torii or Jacque) out of position that he had a good shot of scoring on.

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 03:15 PM
I said the lack of power IN THIS GAME! I pointed out that I was only talking about THIS GAME. In THIS GAME the Twins hit a 3-run bomb and the Sox had no homeruns. So, in THIS GAME the deciding factor was that the Twins had more power and that is why they won THIS GAME. I kept repeating that phrase in every single post I made about THIS GAME, but you decided to take my comments about THIS GAME and extend it to some weird statement about the entire season when all I was talking about was THIS GAME.

If you don't believe me, go back and reread my posts about THIS GAME in THIS VERY POST GAME THREAD.

Reading comprehension is a skill...
Wow. OK, well saying we lost because we had a lack of power in THIS game is like saying we lost because Buehrle failed to throw a perfect game. Neither were necessary to win a game.The Sox could have scored 15 more runs than the Twins yesterday without hitting a homer. To argue that they lost because they didnt hit a homer is ridiculous.

voodoochile
04-11-2005, 03:23 PM
Wow. OK, well saying we lost because we had a lack of power in THIS game is like saying we lost because Buehrle failed to throw a perfect game. Neither were necessary to win a game.The Sox could have scored 15 more runs than the Twins yesterday without hitting a homer. To argue that they lost because they didnt hit a homer is ridiculous.

Now, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I think the reason the Sox lost yesterday is that they got outhomered, 1-0 which led to the deciding margin of victory.

balke
04-11-2005, 03:25 PM
Wow. OK, well saying we lost because we had a lack of power in THIS game is like saying we lost because Buehrle failed to throw a perfect game. Neither were necessary to win a game.The Sox could have scored 15 more runs than the Twins yesterday without hitting a homer. To argue that they lost because they didnt hit a homer is ridiculous.

We lost because Torii Hunter hit a 3-run Homerun, and we struck out 14 times, while leaving 16 runners on base. It took 13 players for us to lose that game. The only errors in the game were charged to Tadahito Iguchi, and Cliff Politte. Joe Crede DID NOT GET AN ERROR CHARGED. I think the score keepers have more of a say in that than anyone here.

Voodoo is telling you we blew offensive chances, and did not hit a hr that game like Hunter did. Your reading comprehension skill is still not rated very high right now. We actually played a good game. We won't win every game, and won't win the majority of games Santana starts. The truth hurts.

CubKiller5
04-11-2005, 03:38 PM
I don't know who "we" is, but I watched the game, and Gooch would've been out on the ball torii caught. I believe Carl hit a ball that Gooch had a better shot at getting home on the previous at-bat.

I wish I had that inning on tape or something, cause Torii caught that ball running forward in shallow center. Gooch was toast. The play previous I believe Carl hit a shot that put the outfielder (either torii or Jacque) out of position that he had a good shot of scoring on.

I'm getting confused so let me try to write what I saw: Ozuna reached on bunt singled then Guch doubled to left. Runners on 2nd, 3rd, 0 outs for Everett. Everett hit a SF to RF scoring Ozuna & moving up Guch.

Are you saying Guch should have gone home on that SF? Why?

What I saw was Hunter getting it in on a bounce & the catcher about 20 ft in front of home plate. Now even if Guch isn't going I would think he would at least be faking it just to force a throw home. Why? Because there's always a chance of an errant throw or the catcher letting it get behind him. I also don't recall Santana backing up the catcher on the play.

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 04:11 PM
We lost because Torii Hunter hit a 3-run Homerun, and we struck out 14 times, while leaving 16 runners on base. It took 13 players for us to lose that game. The only errors in the game were charged to Tadahito Iguchi, and Cliff Politte. Joe Crede DID NOT GET AN ERROR CHARGED. I think the score keepers have more of a say in that than anyone here.

Voodoo is telling you we blew offensive chances, and did not hit a hr that game like Hunter did. Your reading comprehension skill is still not rated very high right now. We actually played a good game. We won't win every game, and won't win the majority of games Santana starts. The truth hurts.
Clearly, your intelligence is not rated very high right now. We lost the game for 2 reasons: a)we gave up 5 runs, and b)they gave up 2 runs. We blew scoring chances. However, it is stupid to day we lost the game because of a lack of power. To say that, you have to be under the believe that homers are the only way possible to score runs. Homers are not reliable. You cant count on getting homers every day. A team need to hit the ball and get runners in from scoring position. A team doesnt need to hit homers to win.
:tomatoaward:tomatoaward

voodoochile
04-11-2005, 04:37 PM
Clearly, your intelligence is not rated very high right now. We lost the game for 2 reasons: a)we gave up 5 runs, and b)they gave up 2 runs. We blew scoring chances. However, it is stupid to day we lost the game because of a lack of power. To say that, you have to be under the believe that homers are the only way possible to score runs. Homers are not reliable. You cant count on getting homers every day. A team need to hit the ball and get runners in from scoring position. A team doesnt need to hit homers to win.


You should check the stats. Almost every team averages over a HR per game. So when you don't get that HR and the other team does, your chances of winning drop dramatically. When the other team gets a 3-run jack on a night your team gets 8 total hits and 10 total baserunners, your odds go down dramatically.

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 04:47 PM
You should check the stats. Almost every team averages over a HR per game. So when you don't get that HR and the other team does, your chances of winning drop dramatically. When the other team gets a 3-run jack on a night your team gets 8 total hits and 10 total baserunners, your odds go down dramatically.
Yes, most teams average a homer a game, but you cant count on getting a homer every day. You take them when you can get them, but you arent assured a homer every game. You are virtually assured a hit every game.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2005, 04:51 PM
Yes, most teams average a homer a game, but you cant count on getting a homer every day. You take them when you can get them, but you arent assured a homer every game. You are virtually assured a hit every game.

This is the dumbest argument yet. Not only are "you virtually assured a hit every game," you are absolutely positively guaranteed 27 at-bats every game. So we should fill the line up with nine warm bodies and just expect to win? Guarantees are what we're supposed to strive for???
:o:

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 05:09 PM
This is the dumbest argument yet. Not only are "you virtually assured a hit every game," you are absolutely positively guaranteed 27 at-bats every game. So we should fill the line up with nine warm bodies and just expect to win? Guarantees are what we're supposed to strive for???
:o:
No, you didn't understand what I said. You can count on hits every game. No matter what, your team should have several hits in every game. If your team only gets 1 or 2 hits a game, you have a HUGE problem. Your team should collect many hits, and they should be expected to. Homers are different. You can't count on homers. No matter how many a team hits, they cant count on homers EVERY game. Therefore, you have to be able to win without the homers. It is asanine to say "we didnt win because we didnt hit a homer today."

34 Inch Stick
04-11-2005, 05:11 PM
Crede has gone 2 for 3 and drove in the go ahead run today. On the other hand he grounded out earlier with a chance to drive in a run.

voodoochile
04-11-2005, 05:14 PM
No, you didn't understand what I said. You can count on hits every game. No matter what, your team should have several hits in every game. If your team only gets 1 or 2 hits a game, you have a HUGE problem. Your team should collect many hits, and they should be expected to. Homers are different. You can't count on homers. No matter how many a team hits, they cant count on homers EVERY game. Therefore, you have to be able to win without the homers. It is asanine to say "we didnt win because we didnt hit a homer today."

On a night when your WHIP is 1.1, it's a good idea to jack one out if you want to score runs...

FightingBillini
04-11-2005, 05:19 PM
On a night when your WHIP is 1.1, it's a good idea to jack one out if you want to score runs...
Yes, but you are assuming its just as easy to hit a homer as a base hit. If Konerko, Everett, Rowand and Dye could all hit homers whenever they wanted, this team would have no problem. When Santana is pitching like he did last night, you arent gonna hit many homers off of him. You need to shorten up the swing and make contact. If you swing for the fences against Santana, he will make you look foolish.

voodoochile
04-11-2005, 05:23 PM
Yes, but you are assuming its just as easy to hit a homer as a base hit. If Konerko, Everett, Rowand and Dye could all hit homers whenever they wanted, this team would have no problem. When Santana is pitching like he did last night, you arent gonna hit many homers off of him. You need to shorten up the swing and make contact. If you swing for the fences against Santana, he will make you look foolish.

How many times are you going to change the subject to defend your point?

Unregistered
04-11-2005, 05:29 PM
Crede has gone 2 for 3 and drove in the go ahead run today. On the other hand he grounded out earlier with a chance to drive in a run.Pods drove in the go ahead run.