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View Full Version : Buehrle and Maddux: a study in contrast


SOX ADDICT '73
04-10-2005, 03:47 PM
Feel free to use this thread to compare and contrast every aspect of these two pitchers, but I just wanted to point out something I noticed today:

Recently, Mark Buehrle was asked about his quick starts. Of course, he gave his usual response of just getting the ball and wanting to throw it, keeping the batter off-balance and the defense on their toes, etc. But he also said that he doesn't like to shake off whatever pitch the catcher is calling for. Basically, he trusts his catcher enough to know what to do in each situation (maybe the reason he preferred Alomar to Olivo?), and doesn't care to waste time arguing.

Greg Maddux, on the other hand, was shaking off pitch after pitch from Michael Barrett during a particular sequence today. He finally just went into his windup before anything was resolved, and Barrett, having no idea what pitch was coming, was forced to call time. The Cubs announcers began praising Maddux, saying how smart and tough he is for "calling his own game." I would think an attitude of mistrust like his would lead to bad feelings between the players (nothing new for the Cubs). Or, do you think Maddux was pouting because Barrett was starting over Henry Blanco, his pet catcher?

I like Greg Maddux, but it appears he's just another selfish Cub player, while Buehrle is all about the TEAM.

JoseCanseco6969
04-10-2005, 04:16 PM
Feel free to use this thread to compare and contrast every aspect of these two pitchers, but I just wanted to point out something I noticed today:

Recently, Mark Beuhrle was asked about his quick starts. Of course, he gave his usual response of just getting the ball and wanting to throw it, keeping the batter off-balance and the defense on their toes, etc. But he also said that he doesn't like to shake off whatever pitch the catcher is calling for. Basically, he trusts his catcher enough to know what to do in each situation (maybe the reason he preferred Alomar to Olivo?), and doesn't care to waste time arguing.

Greg Maddux, on the other hand, was shaking off pitch after pitch from Michael Barrett during a particular sequence today. He finally just went into his windup before anything was resolved, and Barrett, having no idea what pitch was coming, was forced to call time. The Cubs announcers began praising Maddux, saying how smart and tough he is for "calling his own game." I would think an attitude of mistrust like his would lead to bad feelings between the players (nothing new for the Cubs). Or, do you think Maddux was pouting because Barrett was starting over Henry Blanco, his pet catcher?

I like Greg Maddux, but it appears he's just another selfish Cub player, while Beuhrle is all about the TEAM.

Please it's BUEHRLE

SoxFan76
04-10-2005, 04:24 PM
Irregardless, Maddux is going to the Hall of Fame. Can't deny his numbers.

SOX ADDICT '73
04-10-2005, 04:47 PM
Please it's BUEHRLE
Whoops! Right you are, Jose...my bad. :redface:

I corrected all the BUEhrle references in my post - any chance one of the mods is willing to fix the thread title before more spelling cops show up? :redneck :(::help:

EDIT: Thanks! It won't happen again.

samram
04-10-2005, 04:57 PM
Well, if Blanco is his pet catcher (I thought Eddie Perez was, but maybe this is his new one), and he didn't play, there was going to be an adjustment period because he and Barrett would have to get into a rhythm. I don't think Maddux is selfish- 300 game winners should be in charge if that's what they want. Not to mention, it's his ass on the line when he goes out there, not Barrett's, so he has to throw the pitches he thinks give him the best chance to get outs. Looking at his line, he didn't make many good choices though, which makes me happy.:D:

SOX ADDICT '73
04-10-2005, 05:10 PM
Well, if Blanco is his pet catcher (I thought Eddie Perez was, but maybe this is his new one), and he didn't play, there was going to be an adjustment period because he and Barrett would have to get into a rhythm. I don't think Maddux is selfish- 300 game winners should be in charge if that's what they want. Not to mention, it's his ass on the line when he goes out there, not Barrett's, so he has to throw the pitches he thinks give him the best chance to get outs. Looking at his line, he didn't make many good choices though, which makes me happy.:D:
In Atlanta, Perez was his personal caddy - er, catcher - first, then Blanco for two years. Both were inferior, offensively at least, to Javy Lopez. I'm sure it's unintentional, but Maddux does seem to prefer whichever catcher has the weaker bat (Paul Bako over Michael Barrett in '04, and now Blanco again).

As a manager and a fan, that would drive me nuts. There wasn't much difference for us the last several years, but I'd be pretty unhappy this year if one of our starters would only pitch to Widger, keeping AJ's bat on the bench every fifth game.

samram
04-10-2005, 05:21 PM
In Atlanta, Perez was his personal caddy - er, catcher - first, then Blanco for two years. Both were inferior, offensively at least, to Javy Lopez. I'm sure it's unintentional, but Maddux does seem to prefer whichever catcher has the weaker bat (Paul Bako over Michael Barrett in '04, and now Blanco again).

As a manager and a fan, that would drive me nuts. There wasn't much difference for us the last several years, but I'd be pretty unhappy this year if one of our starters would only pitch to Widger, keeping AJ's bat on the bench every fifth game.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but if the team is winning 75-80% of the games he starts, I think the manager and fans can handle that request.

I also think that Alomar was MB's personal catcher the last two years. I remember both Colon and Loaiza liked throwing to Olivo. Of course, taking Javy Lopez out of the lineup is a bigger deal than taking Miguel Olivo out of it, but I think your top pitchers have to be given the benefit of the doubt.

TaylorStSox
04-10-2005, 05:25 PM
In Atlanta, Perez was his personal caddy - er, catcher - first, then Blanco for two years. Both were inferior, offensively at least, to Javy Lopez. I'm sure it's unintentional, but Maddux does seem to prefer whichever catcher has the weaker bat (Paul Bako over Michael Barrett in '04, and now Blanco again).

As a manager and a fan, that would drive me nuts. There wasn't much difference for us the last several years, but I'd be pretty unhappy this year if one of our starters would only pitch to Widger, keeping AJ's bat on the bench every fifth game.

Did you ever think that's because Bako, Perez and Blanco are considered cerebral catchers. The only reason they're in the league is because they call good games. Maddux doesn't want to waste timing and rhythm while waiting for catchers to go through pitches.

This thread, and calling Maddux a "selfish cub" is another example of the fascination people have with the Cubs. It's mindboggling to me. I'm a Sox fan. I don't care what the Cubs do. I don't watch their games. I don't read their articles. I don't pay attention to their segments on the news. I'm just not interested.

peeonwrigley
04-10-2005, 05:26 PM
Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but if the team is winning 75-80% of the games he starts, I think the manager and fans can handle that request.

I also think that Alomar was MB's personal catcher the last two years. I remember both Colon and Loaiza liked throwing to Olivo. Of course, taking Javy Lopez out of the lineup is a bigger deal than taking Miguel Olivo out of it, but I think your top pitchers have to be given the benefit of the doubt.

It also usually works out pretty well for the catcher's day of rest. Catchers get more days off than the average position player, and if your catcher isn't an absolute stud then 1 day off every fifth day is pretty reasonable. It allows the starter and backup guy to know exactly when to expect to play and when to expect a day off.

PatK
04-11-2005, 09:29 AM
Maddux was probably waving off pitches because let's face it, Michael Barrett isn't exactly a great catcher.

If you think otherwise, you've been drinking Cubune Kool-Aid.

LauraJ14
04-11-2005, 10:18 AM
Maddux was probably waving off pitches because let's face it, Michael Barrett isn't exactly a great catcher.

If you think otherwise, you've been drinking Cubune Kool-Aid.


Well, I think that with Maddux's many years pitching and his winning over 300 games, he knows how to pitch. So I would trust his judgement over pitch selection than Michael Barrett's.

BRDSR
04-11-2005, 11:02 AM
Well, I think that with Maddux's many years pitching and his winning over 300 games, he knows how to pitch. So I would trust his judgement over pitch selection than Michael Barrett's.

I agree. Maddux is one of the best pitchers I've had a chance to see in my lifetime. He's truly a pitcher, not a thrower like Clemens and Johnson can sometimes be. I personally love watching Maddux pitch(although he's lost a little edge the past two years) and if I were catching him I think I would let him throw his pitch.

SoxFan76
04-11-2005, 11:38 AM
Did you ever think that's because Bako, Perez and Blanco are considered cerebral catchers. The only reason they're in the league is because they call good games. Maddux doesn't want to waste timing and rhythm while waiting for catchers to go through pitches.

This thread, and calling Maddux a "selfish cub" is another example of the fascination people have with the Cubs. It's mindboggling to me. I'm a Sox fan. I don't care what the Cubs do. I don't watch their games. I don't read their articles. I don't pay attention to their segments on the news. I'm just not interested.

I admit I do worry about what the Cubs do, and I do like to put them down whenever I can, but this thread goes a little too far.

SOX ADDICT '73
04-11-2005, 12:11 PM
Mods:

I began this thread as a knee-jerk reaction to seeing Maddux start his windup with Barrett still guessing, and with Buehrle's quote about relying on his catcher still fresh in my mind. Maddux has certainly become one of the greatest pitchers in the history of the game by doing things his way, and no one's confusing Michael Barrett with a genius anytime soon. I suppose if it ain't broke, you don't fix it. I too like Maddux, but I still found the incident worth noting. At least as much as two separate threads on CLee taking out Todd Walker, anyway.

I don't know what I expected from this thread. Perhaps a discussion about the relationship and level of trust between a pitcher and his catcher, or a study of how two similar pitchers play the game differently. I guess I went about it the wrong way, and shouldn't have called Maddux "another selfish Cub," since that appears to have set people off. I do know I never intended it to turn into the Maddux love-fest it has become. So mods, please move this thread to "What's The Score?" where it belongs. It's stinking up the Clubhouse.

:threadsucks
(I thought I'd better do this before someone else beat me to it.):redneck