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Lip Man 1
04-08-2005, 01:17 AM
"Everything was set up all the way to the end. My closer didn't get it done, and that happens."--Ozzie Guillen to Dave Van Dyke - Chicago Tribune.

I'm as amazed at this comment as I was by the machinations in the late innings Thursday.

Like those moves this comment makes no sense, zero, nada, nyet.

Knowing that you used your bullpen Wednesday, knowing that you used a ton of guys Thursday and knowing that you have a game Friday, not a day off, WHY do you put your closer into a game with a three run lead when the set up guy pitched a good 8th inning?

Even if Shingo saved the game, he threw a ton of pitches (especially to Blake to lead off the frame) and would be useless on Friday.

Insane. Now the bullpen is shot to hell for tonight and we pissed away a game that was already in the win column.

Meanwhile I still haven't seen any comments from Ozzie as to why he put him in there in the first place. You'd think someone would have asked him that question.

Daver I think I'm beginning to see your point about Ozzie.

Lip

FarWestChicago
04-08-2005, 01:33 AM
Sigh...

:deadhorse:

ChiSoxBobette
04-08-2005, 07:20 AM
"Everything was set up all the way to the end. My closer didn't get it done, and that happens."--Ozzie Guillen to Dave Van Dyke - Chicago Tribune.

I'm as amazed at this comment as I was by the machinations in the late innings Thursday.

Like those moves this comment makes no sense, zero, nada, nyet.

Knowing that you used your bullpen Wednesday, knowing that you used a ton of guys Thursday and knowing that you have a game Friday, not a day off, WHY do you put your closer into a game with a three run lead when the set up guy pitched a good 8th inning?

Even if Shingo saved the game, he threw a ton of pitches (especially to Blake to lead off the frame) and would be useless on Friday.

Insane. Now the bullpen is shot to hell for tonight and we pissed away a game that was already in the win column.

Meanwhile I still haven't seen any comments from Ozzie as to why he put him in there in the first place. You'd think someone would have asked him that question.

Daver I think I'm beginning to see your point about Ozzie.

Lip

Maybe we can bring Bob Lemon back from the dead or hey better yet maybe Bill Veeck will rise up and bring our beloved White Sox back to the way you all remember and cry about all the time , give it a rest. Shingo did the same thing at this time last year and when the weather warmed up he was fine. As far as Ozzie its his 2nd year and you bozos want him fired. Sometimes White Sox fans are such whiners. You all cryed for how many years about C.Lee stinking and being lazy and then when he's traded he becomes the savior that we turned our backs on, and as far as Ordonez its sounded to me from all of his whining he never wanted to be here to begin with, but White Sox fans just want to remember him as a ballplayer that JR should have signed for the rest of his career. At the very least you could give this team and Ozzie a chance, look at what happened to Mariano Rivera the other day maybe the yankmees should dump him. If you guys are'nt crying the sky is falling your not happy.
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

Jurr
04-08-2005, 08:23 AM
A win tonight cures everything. Ask the Tribe.

Corlose 15
04-08-2005, 09:04 AM
I doubt that 1/3IP for Cotts, Politte, and Marte means they're unavailable for tonight. You can't have it both ways and say that ozzie used to many pitchers in the 7th, then blew out the pen.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-08-2005, 09:18 AM
I thought I heard Rooney and Farmer mention that the bullpen needed work, but now they've been stretched further than they should be thanks to Shingo's implosion in the ninth.

Shingo is supposed to get the job done. Of course Ozzie is supposed to have a contingency plan in case Shingo doesn't get the job done -- especially heading into a 3-day series with the division champions. That's the manager's job.

Ozzie screwed up.

SoxFanTillDeath
04-08-2005, 09:27 AM
I doubt that 1/3IP for Cotts, Politte, and Marte means they're unavailable for tonight. You can't have it both ways and say that ozzie used to many pitchers in the 7th, then blew out the pen.

Finally, somebody states the obvious and makes a good point!

Kalish
04-08-2005, 09:28 AM
A win tonight cures everything. Ask the Tribe.

Bingo!

I don't fault him for bringing in his "closer" in the 9th (although I would have stayed with Hermanson). But that was definitely overmanaging by Ozzie in the 7th.

SoxFanTillDeath
04-08-2005, 09:33 AM
I thought I heard Rooney and Farmer mention that the bullpen needed work, but now they've been stretched further than they should be thanks to Shingo's implosion in the ninth.

Shingo is supposed to get the job done. Of course Ozzie is supposed to have a contingency plan in case Shingo doesn't get the job done -- especially heading into a 3-day series with the division champions. That's the manager's job.

Ozzie screwed up.

He did have a contingency plan...Vizcaino. Gosh. You guys don't get it. He had Vizcaino if he needed him. How many times does a pitcher give up 3 homeruns in one inning? Never. If Shingo obviously doesn't have it and gives up a couple of hits, you start warming up Luis. If he give up another hit or two and a run or two, you still have the lead and you bring in Luis to finish the job that Shingo couldn't do. You don't expect 3 runs on 3 hits...you couldn't warm a guy up fast enough.

I don't really agree with using half of our bullpen in one inning, but then again I never agreed with having only 11 pitchers in the first place. However, this is not OG's fault. He had it all set up for Shingo in the 9th and had a "contingency plan" in case he failed. How many pitchers do you want as your "contingency plan" every game in case the guy in front of him fails? If you have to have a contingency plan for a pitcher each time he takes the mound and you don't have faith in the guy, why the heck is he on your team in the first place?

The truth is, the manager doesn't throw the ball. Shingo did, and he did horrible. I don't know why everyone is blaming Ozzie instead of Shingo. Shingo gave up the homeruns...rip him. Ozzie probably could have managed it a little better, but you cannot blame this on him.

voodoochile
04-08-2005, 09:51 AM
Couple of points...

1)The bullpen is not blown out. The only pitchers who would be unavailable today are Viscaino and probably Shingo (though Shingo might be able to pitch). The rest of the guys should be fine - especially the ones who only pitched .1 innings.

2)The primary fault for the loss is Singo's. Ozzie carries about 25% of the blame for not having anyone else in the bullpen (should the Sox bring up Adkins and send down Ozuna?)

3)It's a new day and that means a new game. Time to take a deep breath and put this one down. It isn't football. One loss isn't going to crush the season. The team isn't going to have to wait a week to get back on track. If they can't get fired up to play the Twinkies anyway, then there is a LOT more to be worried about than a single horrible game. Somedays you eat the bear. Yesterday, the Bear ate us. That's life. That's baseball...

PaleHoseGeorge
04-08-2005, 10:06 AM
....
The truth is, the manager doesn't throw the ball. Shingo did, and he did horrible. I don't know why everyone is blaming Ozzie instead of Shingo. Shingo gave up the homeruns...rip him. Ozzie probably could have managed it a little better, but you cannot blame this on him.

***? If this were true, why do we need Ozzie Guillen at all? Just have KW (or Reinsdorf) use his cell phone and tell Shingo to pitch the ninth. Hell, we'll run the whole ****ing team on auto-pilot.
:?:

It's the manager's job to keep players fresh to play across 162 games. Otherwise we don't need one.

Baby Fisk
04-08-2005, 10:07 AM
Somedays you eat the bear. Yesterday, the Bear ate us. That's life. That's baseball...
Does that bear come with an assortment of sauces? Mmmm, sauces... :drool:

OG4LIFE
04-08-2005, 10:10 AM
my alias wouldnt be OzzieGuillen4LIFE if i didnt love the guy, and im not sure you can pin the blame on ozzie here. if shingo takes care of business like he's supposed to, we're not having this conversation. was using 3 pitchers in one inning a bad move? probably, i would say it was.

but is that what cost us the game? is that what is going to lose us a game or two against the twins? no.:angry:

ozzie isnt the greatest manager in the world, but this one was NOT his fault.

and jesus, we took 2 of 3 from the toons. relax. 162 games...

and dang, i need to change my sig...

Dan H
04-08-2005, 10:14 AM
This was Shingo's loss. Three run lead in the ninth should have been protected. But these things happen. The best relievers blow games, sometimes they don't it in gut wrenching fashion.

I am more concerned if the numbers 3, 4, and 5 starters for the Sox can be consistent this year. If not, the bullpen won't even have a chance to blow games.

mantis1212
04-08-2005, 10:14 AM
WHY do you put your closer into a game with a three run lead when the set up guy pitched a good 8th inning?

A three-run lead is a save situation. You use a closer for a save situation. It could have gone either way.

Shingo didn't get it done, end of story. If he pitched a perfect ninth, everyone would be going on about how well Ozzie managed the bullpen.

Let's move on, we took two of three and we're playng the Twins tonight.

On a lighter note, did anyone see the story in the Sun-Times that mentioned Chris Widger was warming up in the bullpen in the 11th? See, we have 12 ptichers after all!

Ol' No. 2
04-08-2005, 10:14 AM
my alias wouldnt be OzzieGuillen4LIFE if i didnt love the guy, and im not sure you can pin the blame on ozzie here. if shingo takes care of business like he's supposed to, we're not having this conversation. was using 3 pitchers in one inning a bad move? probably, i would say it was.

but is that what cost us the game? is that what is going to lose us a game or two against the twins? no.:angry:

ozzie isnt the greatest manager in the world, but this one was NOT his fault.

and jesus, we took 2 of 3 from the toons. relax. 162 games...

and dang, i need to change my sig...Good grief. You'd think no one ever saw a team use three pitchers in one inning before. The best time to stop a rally is before it gets going. If they had tied the game in the 7th, everyone would have been screaming for Ozzie's head. "He's got a bullpen full of pitchers. What is he saving them for?"

PaleHoseGeorge
04-08-2005, 10:17 AM
Good grief. You'd think no one ever saw a team use three pitchers in one inning before. The best time to stop a rally is before it gets going. If they had tied the game in the 7th, everyone would have been screaming for Ozzie's head. "He's got a bullpen full of pitchers. What is he saving them for?"

No problem. We'll have YOU pitch the ninth against the Twins tonight. Remember them? The defending division champions? Shingo's not available because Ozzie didn't have a Plan B yesterday against Cleveland.

No worries... Ozzie has it all figured out. You're our guy!
:?:

Ol' No. 2
04-08-2005, 10:24 AM
No problem. We'll have YOU pitch the ninth against the Twins tonight. Remember them? The defending division champions? Shingo's not available because Ozzie didn't have a Plan B yesterday against Cleveland.

No worries... Ozzie has it all figured out. You're our guy!
:?:
Shingo's not available because he sucked and threw 33 pitches, not because of a Plan B or C or D.

spawn
04-08-2005, 10:32 AM
Shingo's not available because he sucked and threw 33 pitches, not because of a Plan B or C or D.
Bingo! ozzie, deservedly, should share in the blame for not having a long reliever available in case Shingo blew the save (which he did). But Ozzie didn't throw belt high 80 mph fastballs to the Cleveland hitters: Shingo did. Shingo didn't do his job. But it's a new day. Bring on the Twinkies!!!

mantis1212
04-08-2005, 10:33 AM
No problem. We'll have YOU pitch the ninth against the Twins tonight. Remember them? The defending division champions? Shingo's not available because Ozzie didn't have a Plan B yesterday against Cleveland.

No worries... Ozzie has it all figured out. You're our guy!
:?:


Do you have a problem with Hermanson or Marte closing tonight? Because they should be ready.

Fungo
04-08-2005, 10:43 AM
Do you have a problem with Hermanson or Marte closing tonight? Because they should be ready.

Hermanson should have pitched the ninth yesterday. Why managers choose to micro manage and take out a guy who is on a roll just to get their closer in the game is beyond me.

Flight #24
04-08-2005, 10:50 AM
Ok everyone: Politte, Hermanson, Takatsu should all be available tonight and likely Cotts & Marte as well. The first group didn't pitch both Wed & Thurs, and the 2d pair only pitched 1 out yesterday. The only guy "burned out" for tonight would be Vizcaino.

Ozzie limited himself for yesterday's extra innings, but not really in terms of using guys today.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-08-2005, 11:19 AM
Shingo's not available because he sucked and threw 33 pitches, not because of a Plan B or C or D.

LMAO! He's not available because Ozzie put him into a game with a THREE-RUN LEAD and the Twins up next for three games.

Sheesh...

A thinking manager knows the next 3 games are more important because they're against the division champs. A thinking manager knows to hold his closer out of yesterday's game unless it's absolutely necessary. A thinking manager knows he needs his closer for tonight!

A thinking manager holds Shingo in reserve as his Plan B in yesterday's ninth inning just in case the rest of his bullpen can't finish the job. A thinking manager doesn't paint himself into a corner using up his entire bullpen because he doesn't have a Plan B to hustle Shingo out of the game in the event he struggles.

A thinking manager always has a Plan B. Ozzie didn't.

Iwritecode
04-08-2005, 11:39 AM
A thinking manager always has a Plan B. Ozzie didn't.

To be completely fair, Ozzie had a plan B in Vizcaino.

He just didn't have a plan C...

PaleHoseGeorge
04-08-2005, 11:42 AM
To be completely fair, Ozzie had a plan B in Vizcaino.

Umm... since when did Ozzie promote Vizcaino to closer? Was Ozzie trying to keep Vizcaino fresh for the Twins??? That's nuts...

:o:

Ol' No. 2
04-08-2005, 11:46 AM
LMAO! He's not available because Ozzie put him into a game with a THREE-RUN LEAD and the Twins up next for three games.

Sheesh...

A thinking manager knows the next 3 games are more important because they're against the division champs. A thinking manager knows to hold his closer out of yesterday's game unless it's absolutely necessary. A thinking manager knows he needs his closer for tonight!

A thinking manager holds Shingo in reserve as his Plan B in yesterday's ninth inning just in case the rest of his bullpen can't finish the job. A thinking manager doesn't paint himself into a corner using up his entire bullpen because he doesn't have a Plan B to hustle Shingo out of the game in the event he struggles.

A thinking manager always has a Plan B. Ozzie didn't.If Shingo puts the Indians away like he's expected to do, both he and Hermanson are available tonight. If he keeps Hermanson in to pitch two innings, he's not. So you use Shingo expecting to have everybody available this weekend instead of using Hermanson for 2 IP and going north with only 5 relievers available. Things don't always work out the way they're planned, but that doesn't mean the plan was bad.

What you want is a clairvoyant manager. If you know where to get one, call Kenny right away.

mdep524
04-08-2005, 11:47 AM
A three-run lead is a save situation. You use a closer for a save situation. It could have gone either way.
See, this is what I disagree with. So what if it is a "save" situation? Who cares?? A three-run lead is certainly safe enough to rest your "closer," especially if the pitcher in the 8th inning looked sharp. Managers just do not get this.

Remeber last year when Shingo would breeze through an 8th inning and then Ozzie felt he needed to bring Koch in for the 9th just because he has the label of "closer"? Stupid.

Iwritecode
04-08-2005, 11:48 AM
Umm... since when did Ozzie promote Vizcaino to closer? Was Ozzie trying to keep Vizcaino fresh for the Twins??? That's nuts...

:o:

I didn't say it was a good plan B... :wink:

PaleHoseGeorge
04-08-2005, 11:56 AM
What you want is a clairvoyant manager. If you know where to get one, call Kenny right away.

What I want is a competent manager. As a Sox Fan I would think you would want one, too. If repeatedly chewing up your bullpen through nothing but utter incompetence is all you expect from Ozzie Guillen, then to hell with both of you losers. I can get Terry Bevington to do the same job Ozzie is doing. Bevo blew through our entire staff before the all-star break in 1996 and he never did learn from his mistakes either.

Go ahead and make excuses for Bevo, too. "Hernandez should have just closed the door..."

:kukoo:

santo=dorf
04-08-2005, 12:01 PM
It was ridiculous for Guillen to use 3 pitchers in one inning because Contreras went 6 innings, and he knew that El Duque would be pitching on Friday.

I just hope Vizcaino is OK after the 60 pitches. :(:

Ol' No. 2
04-08-2005, 12:01 PM
What I want is a competent manager. As a Sox Fan I would think you would want one, too. If repeatedly chewing up your bullpen through nothing but utter incompetence is all you expect from Ozzie Guillen, then to hell with both of you losers. I can get Terry Bevington to do the same job Ozzie is doing. Bevo blew through our entire staff before the all-star break in 1996 and he never did learn from his mistakes either.

Go ahead and make excuses for Bevo, too. "Hernandez should have just closed the door..."

:kukoo:
Shingo is not available today because he sucked and threw 33 pitches. Had they saved Shingo and used Hermanson for 2 innings, HE wouldn't be available today. How is that better?:?:

mjharrison72
04-08-2005, 12:02 PM
On a lighter note, did anyone see the story in the Sun-Times that mentioned Chris Widger was warming up in the bullpen in the 11th? See, we have 12 ptichers after all!
I choked on my coffee when I saw that... who knew this young catcher was so multi-talented?

PaleHoseGeorge
04-08-2005, 12:04 PM
Shingo is not available today because he sucked and threw 33 pitches. Had they saved Shingo and used Hermanson for 2 innings, HE wouldn't be available today. How is that better?:?:

I answered this already. Learn to read.

DaleJRFan
04-08-2005, 12:07 PM
If Shingo would have been effective, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd be talking about how great it is to open the season by sweeping the Tribe... Funny thing is, I had just finished explaing to my girlfriend why he is called Mr. Zero... then I look like a fool when a ball goes flying over our heads and almost onto the concourse...

BUT.... I have to say, there is NO reason for throwing 3 guys in one inning with a 4 run lead on the third game of the season leading into a series with the Twins... NO REASON.

Clarkdog
04-08-2005, 12:35 PM
No problem. We'll have YOU pitch the ninth against the Twins tonight. Remember them? The defending division champions? Shingo's not available because Ozzie didn't have a Plan B yesterday against Cleveland.

No worries... Ozzie has it all figured out. You're our guy!
:?:


George, I typicaly agree with you on most things. But no manager, even a thinking one, is worrying about the outcome of tomorrow's game when he is in a position to win today's game.

I don't agree with how Ozzie handled the bullpen, but he did so because he was trying to win today's game.

SOXSINCE'70
04-08-2005, 12:38 PM
I doubt that 1/3IP for Cotts, Politte, and Marte means they're unavailable for tonight.


Marte threw 5 pitches yesterday.So did Politte.Cotts wasn't
overused,neither was Hermanson.I hate to sound like Dave
Wannstedt but "we'll be fine".:D: :D:

Ozzie out La Russaed himself yesterday.That will happen
from time to time.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-08-2005, 12:44 PM
George, I typicaly agree with you on most things. But no manager, even a thinking one, is worrying about the outcome of tomorrow's game when he is in a position to win today's game.

I don't agree with how Ozzie handled the bullpen, but he did so because he was trying to win today's game.

Huh?
:?:

Ozzie was in position to win yesterday's game without Shingo. He had a 3-run lead and needed only three outs. He might have needed his closer yesterday but he absolutely needs to have his closer available against the division champs. Ozzie can read a schedule same as you and me.

Ozzie's Plan B for the ninth inning yesterday was to keep signaling to the bullpen for another fresh arm. The only difference between him and Bevington was Ozzie waited for the reliever to be warmed up first.
:o:

There isn't a single person reading this thread who isn't incompetent enough to "manage" the team like Ozzie or Bevo would yesterday. The freaking catcher was warming up in the bullpen. Hey, I can do that. So can you and so can Ol' No. 2, too.

wdelaney72
04-08-2005, 12:49 PM
Hermanson should have pitched the ninth yesterday. Why managers choose to micro manage and take out a guy who is on a roll just to get their closer in the game is beyond me.

This translates to closer by committee which has PROVEN many times to be a disaster.

Shingo is the closer. He was asked to do his job and he crapped down his leg. End of story.

Ol' No. 2
04-08-2005, 12:59 PM
This translates to closer by committee which has PROVEN many times to be a disaster.

Shingo is the closer. He was asked to do his job and he crapped down his leg. End of story.Closer by committee has only been proven to be a disaster when you have a crappy committee. No one has, to my knowledge, ever done it with 3 or 4 really good relievers.

Lip Man 1
04-08-2005, 01:12 PM
According to the Sun-Times today both Cotts and Marte are extremely limited for tonight because they have pitched in back to back games (i.e. Wednesday and Thursday...)

Lip

voodoochile
04-08-2005, 01:13 PM
According to the Sun-Times today both Cotts and Marte are extremely limited for tonight because they have pitched in back to back games (i.e. Wednesday and Thursday...)

Lip

Is that from Ozzie's mouth? Cooper's mouth? Or is it just because that is they way they think it ought to work?

Lip Man 1
04-08-2005, 01:20 PM
Voodoo:

I only know what I read.

However as an ex-pitcher I can tell you (and Jack McDowell said the same thing in his WSI interview) that warming up in the bullpen takes as much out of you as throwing in a game. It all counts.

So both Cotts and Matre have pitched in back to back games plus warmed up in the past two games. That's a lot of pitches especially when they 'only' faced one guy.

Hopefully it won't be an issue tonight or over the weekend. We'll see.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
04-08-2005, 01:25 PM
I answered this already. Learn to read.Well, everybody's entitled to their own opinion. I just don't see having Shingo available and not Hermanson as much of an improvement over the reverse. The Twins saw Shingo plenty last year and even tatooed him once or twice IIRC. Most of them have never seen Hermanson. Besides, 95% of the time Shingo gets through the 9th on 15-20 pitches and then they're both available, so it seems like the correct call at the time. IMO, it wasn't the plan but the execution that failed.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-08-2005, 01:26 PM
Well, everybody's entitled to their own opinion. I just don't see having Shingo available and not Hermanson as much of an improvement ...

As closer Shingo is 1000-times more important to the Sox than Hermanson. If I could ignore this point I would agree with you. But you're right everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

Ol' No. 2
04-08-2005, 01:30 PM
As closer Shingo is 1000-times more important to the Sox than Hermanson. If I could ignore this point I would agree with you. But you're right everybody is entitled to their own opinion.I guess that's where we differ. I wouldn't give Shingo that big of an edge over Hermanson. Hermanson has been a successful closer, and the fact that most of the Twins have never seen him has to factor in. Hopefully, Hernandez will throw a gem, they'll pound the Twinkies for 10 runs and we won't have to find out.:smile:

Fungo
04-08-2005, 01:36 PM
This translates to closer by committee which has PROVEN many times to be a disaster.

Shingo is the closer. He was asked to do his job and he crapped down his leg. End of story.

It was a three run lead with tomorrow's (today) game against the defending division champs. The closer does not always have to come in in a save situation. Hermanson threw 14 pitches in the 8th. He could have easliy come back in the ninth.