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View Full Version : *OFFICIAL* 4/7/05 Postgame thread -- Shingo meltdown


SoxFan48
04-07-2005, 06:06 PM
What lady luck gave us yesterday, she took away today. Games like this even out over a course of a season. Our even out took 1 day.

DoggPhood
04-07-2005, 06:06 PM
i'm furious as well.

but, some positives:
contreras exceeding my expectation
iguchi really got rolling
podsednik was pretty good

bullpen was good... except for takatsu/vizcaino.

and i don't really blame vizcaino, he was in there longer than he should have been. the blame goes on shingo for giving up 3 homers, especially back-to-back shots with 2 outs.

you could also say that ozzie mismanaged this game by having 3 different pitchers pitch the 7th without any real trouble being the reason.

yeah, i blame ozzie.

i think we need another long reliever in the pen instead of ozuna. get adkins back up here.

kittle42
04-07-2005, 06:06 PM
sooner or later everyone will see shingo is not a long term solution at closer. But its the first loss of the season. Keep some perspective. Good outing by contreas. Thats a positve.

They're 2-1. Let's head to Minny and kill some Twinkies.

soltrain21
04-07-2005, 06:06 PM
This game was not lost because of poor hitting. Shingo does his job and we win 5-2.

SoxFan48
04-07-2005, 06:07 PM
The idiot had no choice. He had burned up the rest of the bullpen in the 7th, 8th and 9th innings.

voodoochile
04-07-2005, 06:07 PM
The game was lost because Takatsu had a horrible outing. That's it.

Well, you can throw in an honorable mention to Ozzie for burning through the bullpen in the 7th and being forced to work Vizcaino so long and hard that they had Widger warming up at the end...

But, basically, you are correct...

ChiWhiteSox1337
04-07-2005, 06:07 PM
First live game I've saw this regular season. Got home during the bottom of the 9th...talk about DEPRESSING. someone get me my zoloft prescription..

Unregistered
04-07-2005, 06:07 PM
Bottom line, we took 2 of 3 from a supposed division favorite to start the season.

I'll take it. It hurts, but I'll take it.

ma_deuce
04-07-2005, 06:07 PM
Oh my God, we lost today! I guess we should call it a season then...

:chickenlittle

GiveMeSox
04-07-2005, 06:10 PM
Ozzie still hasn't learned how to handle a pitching staff. He wasted Politte and Marte, using each for only one batter in the seventh inning. What is this? The seventh game of the World Series?

He had no choice but to leave Vizcaino out there to die because no one else was available. Horrible managing.

Not to mention, no runs from the fifth inning on. Unacceptable.

Thats not really fair to say. The situation dictated what happened. The game was to be won or lost right there when the indians where threatening in the 7th. Ozzie wouldn't have had to go to the pen back and forth if the original guys would have done their job. Like cotts giving up a walk then a hit, thats unacceptable for long releif. Then that forces us to go to a "go to guy" for the next out. Then hafner, who kills righties, means politte has to be yanked. And so on. Play to win damn it. We did.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-07-2005, 06:10 PM
Let's face it. When it comes to managing a bullpen, Ozzie isn't the brightest bulb in the box. Not as dim as Terry Bevington, but pretty dim.
:cool:

(Daver inserts Bevo's big clown manager shoes here.)

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 06:10 PM
Well, you can throw in an honorable mention to Ozzie for burning through the bullpen in the 7th and being forced to work Vizcaino so long and hard that they had Widger warming up at the end...

But, basically, you are correct...Where were all the baseball geniuses DURING the 7th inning??? I don't recall hearing anyone beefing then. Ozzie made the right moves, but sometimes **** just happens. Shingo sucked today and that was that. The earth is not spiralling toward the sun.

SABRSox
04-07-2005, 06:11 PM
I'm still reserving judgement on Shingo. 3 HR in an inning isn't acceptable, but if he comes out in MIN and is lights out, I can deal with it. If he comes out in MIN and is a head case, then I'll worry.

He, and the rest of the Sox need to forget about this one.

soltrain21
04-07-2005, 06:12 PM
On the plus side....Jose looked AWESOME!

JB98
04-07-2005, 06:12 PM
Shingo definatly blew the game. Watching the game you could see it coming. We even called it. Belliard is always been a Shingo killer plus Shingo was pitching a lot of his tailing fastballs. The strange thing was they were tailing from in or out to over the plate and most were tailing up. Thats very bad becuase every indian hitter can take u deep. The biggest problem to me was the inability of long relief and our lack of the 7th bullpen pitcher. Viscaino never should have been left in there for 65 pitches, thats unacceptable, know he needs about 2 days to recover. The problem was cotts and politte. Those guys are too inconsistent with throwing strikes, giving up walks, and wild pitches to be counted on to eat innings. If they would have done their jobs right in the 7th inning, not giving hit hits and that 1 run. Then shingo probably would not have been called upon for a save in the 9th.

Umm....Politte retired the only hitter he faced. He was fresh, having not pitched in either of the first two games. He should have been trusted to get a few more outs, especially since the score was 5-2 and the tying run was not even at the plate.

Ozzie's micromanaging backfired horribly. Even after Shingo blew the save, we still had a chance to win. Instead, we had to run a tired Vizcaino out there because there was nobody left.

batmanZoSo
04-07-2005, 06:12 PM
This team needs to go that doctor from Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. And quick.

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 06:12 PM
Thats not really fair to say. The situation dictated what happened. The game was to be won or lost right there when the indians where threatening in the 7th. Ozzie wouldn't have had to go to the pen back and forth if the original guys would have done their job. Like cotts giving up a walk then a hit, thats unacceptable for long releif. Then that forces us to go to a "go to guy" for the next out. Then hafner, who kills righties, means politte has to be yanked. And so on. Play to win damn it. We did.What? You expect relievers to NEVER give up a hit? They should all have 0.00 ERA's? Get serious. If Shingo had nailed down the save, everyone would have been raving about Ozzie's brilliant bullpen management.

Jjav829
04-07-2005, 06:13 PM
Shingo sucked. Plain and simple. We can overanalyze this to death, but it all comes down to that one thing. Shingo sucked. It happens to the best of them. Mariano Rivera just blew two saves in a row against the Red Sox. The Indians seemed to be getting a hold of Shingo. It happens. We can blame Ozzie, but he did exactly what you want. He got the ball to his closer with a 3-run lead with only 3 outs to go. That's all you ask for and you hope your closer can nail it down. Shingo didn't. I guess this makes up for yesterday's improbable win. Move on and go get the Twins tomorrow night.

Nard
04-07-2005, 06:14 PM
On the negative side... Jose's AWESOME win ripped to shreds by a gimmicky Asian delivery.

voodoochile
04-07-2005, 06:14 PM
Where were all the baseball geniuses DURING the 7th inning??? I don't recall hearing anyone beefing then. Ozzie made the right moves, but sometimes **** just happens. Shingo sucked today and that was that. The earth is not spiralling toward the sun.

Actually, I was gaming with my nephew and sister and came back for the bottom half of that inning.

I am not of the opinion that the world is ending, merely pointint out that most teams don't blow through that many pitchers in a single inning unless it is a one run lead or the tying run is at least at the plate.

Not the end of the world, but hopefully Ozzie learns to trust his guys a bit more and thus prevents further problems when the closer struggles or the team ties it late.

I want Mags back
04-07-2005, 06:15 PM
thanks mods for renaming this







how I feel now :whiner:

Infallible
04-07-2005, 06:15 PM
I got the PTC though.......

spongyfungy
04-07-2005, 06:16 PM
Ozzie postgame (http://home.comcast.net/%7Espongy83/ozzie.mp3)

voodoochile
04-07-2005, 06:16 PM
thanks mods for renaming this

how I feel now :whiner:

I actually liked the old name. Give it a couple of hours and watch...

I'm out. I maybe back later, but I won't be hanging here tonight. Things are going to get fugly...:rolleyes:

JB98
04-07-2005, 06:17 PM
What? You expect relievers to NEVER give up a hit? They should all have 0.00 ERA's? Get serious. If Shingo had nailed down the save, everyone would have been raving about Ozzie's brilliant bullpen management.

I wouldn't be raving. It's one thing to manage like that with a 1-run lead. It's just plain silly with a 3 or 4-run lead.

mweflen
04-07-2005, 06:17 PM
Iguchi looked good. So did Pierzynski.

Contreras isn't the meatballer we all thought last year and in ST.

Hermanson pitched well.

Oh yeah. We're tied for first. :rolleyes:

BigEdWalsh
04-07-2005, 06:17 PM
I'll tell you the truth, I didn't even want to come on WSI after that nightmare...too depressing. But, hey, the Sox are 2-1. We lost today and shoulda won. But, we won yesterday and shoulda lost.
A stupid loss, to be sure....I'm just glad I wasn't there.

Viva Medias B's
04-07-2005, 06:17 PM
"WHAT THE [BLEEP] WAS THAT!!!!! GREAT [BLEEPING] WAY TO GO INTO THE EARLY BUT STILL IMPORTANT MINNESOTA SERIES!!!!"

That is the sentiment most of us are thinking. As p***** as we are over the fact that we lost or - really - how we lost, this is loss No. 1 of at least 60 losses. Nevertheless, a loss like this is inexcusable. You do not blow a three run ninth inning lead the way we did today.

As for Takatsu, I say allow him three or four of the next save opportunities. If he blows two of them, remove him as closer.

As as for Guillen, his handling of the pitching staff today was not one of his better ones. I'll just leave that at that.

Infallible
04-07-2005, 06:18 PM
and I got the PTC, way to go AJ!

Baby Fisk
04-07-2005, 06:18 PM
Anyone who observed this fiasco unfold on TV knows the reason why we lost this game today:


















:angry: :angry: M&Ms!!! :angry: :angry:

mweflen
04-07-2005, 06:18 PM
and I got the PTC, way to go AJ!

Okay, now that's a stretch. :smile:

Epark84
04-07-2005, 06:18 PM
Yes, you're correct. His stats last season and his first outing were all a mirage. It's THIS outing that shows the real Shingo.


we shall see. look how much success nomo had in the beginning. and chan ho park. They pick up on these foreign pitchers. How many balls did shingo have hit to the track last year. I know it was a lot. Good closers dont blow 3 run leads. This is his first so ill give him a free pass. But even if he is lights out, he is old and they need to start grooming someone

jabrch
04-07-2005, 06:18 PM
Well, we should have lost yesterday. And we should have won today. 2-1 vs the Tribe is a good way to start the season. If you play .500 on the road, and win 2/3 of your games at home that will get you 95 wins.

TaylorStSox
04-07-2005, 06:19 PM
I blame Willie Harris and Man Soo Lee.

Viva Medias B's
04-07-2005, 06:19 PM
Anyone who observed this fiasco unfold on TV knows the reason why we lost this game today:
:angry: :angry: M&Ms!!! :angry: :angry:

For those out of the loop like me, care to elaborate?

Baby Fisk
04-07-2005, 06:20 PM
Tip of the cigar to Contreras. Nice outing. I feel better already. Thanks for this thread! :smile:

Unregistered
04-07-2005, 06:20 PM
If Chris Widger had a better curveball, we wouldn't be in this mess.

mweflen
04-07-2005, 06:20 PM
Well, we should have lost yesterday. And we should have won today. 2-1 vs the Tribe is a good way to start the season. If you play .500 on the road, and win 2/3 of your games at home that will get you 95 wins.

I could with 30 blown saves if we got 95 wins:smile:

I don't know if the starting staff could, though...

santo=dorf
04-07-2005, 06:20 PM
Pathetic outing from Shingo and our "manager." :mad:

:pee:ozzie

Viva Medias B's
04-07-2005, 06:20 PM
I blame Willie Harris and Man Soo Lee.

I blame...

:wanne

I want Mags back
04-07-2005, 06:21 PM
Anyone who observed this fiasco unfold on TV knows the reason why we lost this game today:


















:angry: :angry: M&Ms!!! :angry: :angry:

I dont get it. Are you talking about the guy in the M&Ms jacket in the front row
What did he do

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 06:22 PM
I wouldn't be raving. It's one thing to manage like that with a 1-run lead. It's just plain silly with a 3 or 4-run lead.A 3-run lead can evaporate pretty fast (witness today's game). Would you have left Cotts to face a righty with men on 1st and 3rd and no(?) outs? And if he had and Cotts got whacked, I guess NO ONE would be critical, then, right? Ditto for brining in Marte to get the lefty. Bottom line he got out of a jam with only 1 run scoring.

Must be nice to have 20/20 hindsight.

Unregistered
04-07-2005, 06:22 PM
"Everybody blows saves against Cleveland - they're a good hitting team."
-Ozzie Guillen, Postgame

Infallible
04-07-2005, 06:22 PM
Okay, now that's a stretch. :smile:

I've got nothing else to live for after todays game.......please man show some mercy and let me have this.............

Baby Fisk
04-07-2005, 06:22 PM
For those out of the loop like me, care to elaborate?

The entire game there was an old guy sitting right over Pierzynski's right shoulder wearing the most hideous, most heinous looking yellow M&Ms jacket. A true atrocity against fashion and common sense. It was clear that Shingo was distracted by the looming yellow patch in the background. U.S. Cellular Field needs to enforce a dress code for those seats. :angry:


Damn you, M&M, damn you!

mweflen
04-07-2005, 06:22 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=47787 :smile:

mweflen
04-07-2005, 06:23 PM
I've got nothing else to live for after todays game.......please man show some mercy and let me have this.............

don't worry - there's more than just the WSI PTC contest to take away from this...

mweflen
04-07-2005, 06:24 PM
Gucci seemed less clueless at the plate today than in the first two. Gives me confidence that he can make the adjustments.

Jjav829
04-07-2005, 06:25 PM
"Everybody blows saves against Cleveland - they're a good hitting team."
-Ozzie Guillen, Postgame

OMG! He's becoming Dusty Baker!

http://www.kronishsports.com/images/Dusty%20Baker.jpg
"You ever seen a blown save against Cleveland? Everyone blows saves against Cleveland, dude. You ever seen a closer not blow a game against Cleveland, man? I bet you've blown a few games against Cleveland that you don't talk about."

TommyJohn
04-07-2005, 06:25 PM
Let's face it. When it comes to managing a bullpen, Ozzie isn't the brightest bulb in the box. Not as dim as Terry Bevington, but pretty dim.
:cool:

(Daver inserts Bevo's big clown manager shoes here.)

BEVINGTON!!!!!!!!!!!
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

spongyfungy
04-07-2005, 06:26 PM
contreras didn't suck today. gj!

whitesoxwilkes
04-07-2005, 06:26 PM
Melton just referred to Joe Mays as "Cy Mays"...wonder if he's been lurking?

:bandance:

Jurr
04-07-2005, 06:26 PM
Go get 'em tomorrow. We'll show the league what kind of chemistry we have.

Jerko
04-07-2005, 06:27 PM
I've always said, no matter who our closer is; DO NOT BRING HIM IN WITH A 3 RUN LEAD. I said it about Hernandez, I said it about Foulke, and now I say it about Shingo. These guys are so "specialized" these days, that they are better at holding a 1 run lead than a 3 run lead. No need to bring in Takatsu when it's 5-2. Save the closers for a close; not to protect a 3 run lead. I know that sounds simplified, but check the #s over the last few years; closers should close, not "protect". This one is on Ozzie. Also, it was 5-0 Sox in the 5th. Did we REALLY need to use 7 pitchers? Contreras. Cotts. Politte. Hermanson. Marte. Shingo. Vizcaino. WAY too much "managing" tonight. Oh well, tomorrow is a new day and we can only learn from our mistakes.

batmanZoSo
04-07-2005, 06:28 PM
The entire game there was an old guy sitting right over Pierzynski's right shoulder wearing the most hideous, most heinous looking yellow M&Ms jacket. A true atrocity against fashion and common sense. It was clear that Shingo was distracted by the looming yellow patch in the background. U.S. Cellular Field needs to enforce a dress code for those seats. :angry:


Damn you, M&M, damn you!

Shingo's like a monkey, he's naturally attracted to bright yellow objects. :cool:

JB98
04-07-2005, 06:28 PM
A 3-run lead can evaporate pretty fast (witness today's game). Would you have left Cotts to face a righty with men on 1st and 3rd and no(?) outs? And if he had and Cotts got whacked, I guess NO ONE would be critical, then, right? Ditto for brining in Marte to get the lefty. Bottom line he got out of a jam with only 1 run scoring.

Must be nice to have 20/20 hindsight.

I wondered aloud AT THE TIME what the hell Ozzie was doing during that inning. I wouldn't have brought Cotts in to begin with. I would have gone Politte for the seventh, Marte and/or Hermanson for the eighth and Shingo for the ninth.

Shingo may have still blown the save, but I would have had Cotts left in reserve to back up Vizcaino in extra innings. Instead, we have to leave Luis out there to rot and give up six freakin' runs. It's ridiculous. Given that Vizcaino pitched yesterday, we were lucky he got out of the ninth and through the 10th unscathed.

HomeFish
04-07-2005, 06:29 PM
AJ had it going today. 'tis nice to finally have a real catcher.

Vizcaino's first inning impressed me muchly. I was getting ready to nominate him for closer when the 11th inning started...

batmanZoSo
04-07-2005, 06:30 PM
I've always said, no matter who our closer is; DO NOT BRING HIM IN WITH A 3 RUN LEAD. I said it about Hernandez, I said it about Foulke, and now I say it about Shingo. These guys are so "specialized" these days, that they are better at holding a 1 run lead than a 3 run lead. No need to bring in Takatsu when it's 5-2. Save the closers for a close; not to protect a 3 run lead. I know that sounds simplified, but check the #s over the last few years; closers should close, not "protect". This one is on Ozzie. Also, it was 5-0 Sox in the 5th. Did we REALLY need to use 7 pitchers? Contreras. Cotts. Politte. Hermanson. Marte. Shingo. Vizcaino. WAY too much "managing" tonight. Oh well, tomorrow is a new day and we can only learn from our mistakes.

I agree. It never fails with these closers. I remember Foulke almost blew a huge lead in 2000 because Manuel decided to give him work. I think the lead was 5 at least and he just barely got out of it.

infohawk
04-07-2005, 06:30 PM
I wouldn't worry about it. I wouldn't cast about for team villains or someone to "blame." Sometimes this just happens. Shingo must have been off. That's going to happen with any pitcher. It won't be the last time he's off. He was roughed up a few times early last year and settled right in.

I wouldn't blame Ozzie for "mis-managing" the bullpen, either. He had his team in a strong position to win the game. If Shingo slams the door in the ninth, I don't think one single person would be able to say with any credibility, "Boy, Ozzie sure got lucky his closer protected that 3-run lead in the ninth. We only had one pitcher left!" After Ozzie's pitching moves in the 7th, I remember thinking to myself that he did a good job protecting the lead.

By the way, I read a thread somewhere mentioning that Shingo was being squeezed by the umpire. Any validity to this? What did his "stuff" look like today?

1917
04-07-2005, 06:31 PM
If this was asked and answered then I'm sorry, but WHY did Ozzie Pinch hit Paulie, our Power Man, with Ross Gload? I mean PK could have ended this with one big swing

Jurr
04-07-2005, 06:31 PM
This will be interesting to watch. The thing that the Sox have preached all spring was how great the chemistry was with this bunch. Chemistry (especially with the recent Lee and Maggs slams) may have not been that great before. In Sox history, they haven't bounced back well from losses like this.

If the Sox have the chemistry they're talking about, they'll rally the troops and give the Twins hell. Jose Contreras and his performance today is actually the most important thing that happened today.

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 06:31 PM
I wondered aloud AT THE TIME what the hell Ozzie was doing during that inning. I wouldn't have brought Cotts in to begin with. I would have gone Politte for the seventh, Marte and/or Hermanson for the eighth and Shingo for the ninth.

Shingo may have still blown the save, but I would have had Cotts left in reserve to back up Vizcaino in extra innings. Instead, we have to leave Luis out there to rot and give up six freakin' runs. It's ridiculous. Given that Vizcaino pitched yesterday, we were lucky he got out of the ninth and through the 10th unscathed.Why would you bring in a RHP to face a lefty to start the inning? Why is Cotts in the bullpen if not to use in exactly that situation?

Jerko
04-07-2005, 06:32 PM
I wouldn't be raving. It's one thing to manage like that with a 1-run lead. It's just plain silly with a 3 or 4-run lead.

B-I-N-G-O!

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 06:33 PM
If this was asked and answered then I'm sorry, but WHY did Ozzie Pinch hit Paulie, our Power Man, with Ross Gload? I mean PK could have ended this with one big swingHe didn't. Gload was a defensive replacement in the 9th. Another stupid move by Ozzie that was a great move when he did it Monday.

Jjav829
04-07-2005, 06:35 PM
If this was asked and answered then I'm sorry, but WHY did Ozzie Pinch hit Paulie, our Power Man, with Ross Gload? I mean PK could have ended this with one big swing

You know, I was actually going to start a thread on this Monday. I don't like this move. PK is too important offensively to put a defensive replacement in for. I know Gload has a little better range. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I was going to make a post saying Ozzie has to stop doing this because it will bite us one day. Was today the day? I don't know. But I know I sure as hell would rather have had Paulie stepping to the plate to leadoff the 10th than Gload. I'll take my chances with Konerko at first from now on.

infohawk
04-07-2005, 06:35 PM
If this was asked and answered then I'm sorry, but WHY did Ozzie Pinch hit Paulie, our Power Man, with Ross Gload? I mean PK could have ended this with one big swing

I share your frustration at the loss, but seriously, Ozzie played it right. No way he should think about what might happen if a 3-run lead disappears. You play for the win in the ninth. Shingo just had a bad outing. It happens. I mean, if the Indians were to score 3 runs because of a defensive error by Konerko, people would blame Ozzie for not replacing him with Gload for defensive purposes.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 06:35 PM
If this was asked and answered then I'm sorry, but WHY did Ozzie Pinch hit Paulie, our Power Man, with Ross Gload? I mean PK could have ended this with one big swing
Gload was a defensive sub. This occurred as well in the first game, and Gload made a beautiful play to end the game. Good call by Ozzie. There was no way anyone thought Shingo would screw up the way he did.

As far as the use of the pen, Ozzie was putting his butt on the line with his closer, which is what you're supposed to do. If the team has a one run lead in the bottom of 9 in some away park, you put the ball in the closer's hand and let him do it. If he doesn't get the job done, you lose. That's why closers make the bucks.

The Sox had a 3 run lead, and it's easy to second guess Ozzie on the use of his bullpen. He was trying to stretch out his relievers that hadn't gotten work yet this year. That was actually a smart move. He obviously believed the Sox had this one by the cojones. Shingo blew the game, and Ozzie can't be blamed for that. IT's easy to criticize in hindsight.

Lip Man 1
04-07-2005, 06:36 PM
Brutal loss, absolutely brutal.

That being said as No. 2 stated, the Sox took 2 out of 3 to start the season, keep doing that and you'll be fine. (That sweep was so close you could taste it and that's what really friggin' hurts... one can only hope that this isn't one of those games you look back on in September and say 'what if...)

We'll see what they are made of tomorrow. I'm assuming the Twins will throw Losch, 'Cy' Mays, and Santana. The Sox can not get swept.

The offense still looks sporadic, the scored in three innings today which is a definate improvement, but they were shut out for the final six innings. If you are going to have a run and gun offense you simply have to score every few innings to keep winning.

We'll see. As good of a win as Tuesday's game was, today's was just as bad.

Lip

JB98
04-07-2005, 06:36 PM
Why would you bring in a RHP to face a lefty to start the inning? Why is Cotts in the bullpen if not to use in exactly that situation?

The same answer I've given earlier in this thread. We were up 5-1 going into that inning. Why the hell do we need to play righty vs. lefty with a four-run lead? You play matchups when you're trying to protect a 1-run advantage. When you have a little bit of cushion, it's simply not necessary to micromanage and blow out the bullpen. Politte was fresh. He didn't need to be pulled after one batter. Big deal if a lefty was at the plate. The hitter wasn't even representing the tying run.

JB98
04-07-2005, 06:38 PM
You know, I was actually going to start a thread on this Monday. I don't like this move. PK is too important offensively to put a defensive replacement in for. I know Gload has a little better range. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I was going to make a post saying Ozzie has to stop doing this because it will bite us one day. Was today the day? I don't know. But I know I sure as hell would rather have had Paulie stepping to the plate to leadoff the 10th than Gload. I'll take my chances with Konerko at first from now on.

I agree 100 percent. Paulie isn't THAT BAD at first base.

Clement's beard
04-07-2005, 06:38 PM
Vizcaino and Posednek for Carlos Lee. Posednik and Vizcaino are going to have to produce and produce almost all the time or they will never hear the end of it.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 06:39 PM
The same answer I've given earlier in this thread. We were up 5-1 going into that inning. Why the hell do we need to play righty vs. lefty with a four-run lead? You play matchups when you're trying to protect a 1-run advantage. When you have a little bit of cushion, it's simply not necessary to micromanage and blow out the bullpen. Politte was fresh. He didn't need to be pulled after one batter. Big deal if a lefty was at the plate. The hitter wasn't even representing the tying run.
He wasn't micromanaging. He was trying to get a little work for all of his bullpen guys just to keep them stretched out and going against live pitching. They hadn't pitched yet in the series, and they need to be sharp against the Twins. It was actually a smart move. It just backfired because Shingo sucked today.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 06:40 PM
Vizcaino and Posednek for Carlos Lee. Posednik and Vizcaino are going to have to produce and produce almost all the time or they will never hear the end of it.
I value everyone's opinions, but this is terrible. Clement's beard..come on, man. You know better than to mention this. Vizcaino wasn't sharp in the third inning that he was featured. He wasn't supposed to be out there that long. Yikes.

Clement's beard
04-07-2005, 06:42 PM
I value everyone's opinions, but this is terrible. Clement's beard..come on, man. You know better than to mention this. Vizcaino wasn't sharp in the third inning that he was featured. He wasn't supposed to be out there that long. Yikes.

Jurr,

No, he was not supposed to be out there at that time. I agree. I'm just saying that he and Posednik are going to have to make everyone forget about Lee, who just might make the all-star team as a Brewer. Not at all pinning that loss on JV.

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 06:45 PM
The same answer I've given earlier in this thread. We were up 5-1 going into that inning. Why the hell do we need to play righty vs. lefty with a four-run lead? You play matchups when you're trying to protect a 1-run advantage. When you have a little bit of cushion, it's simply not necessary to micromanage and blow out the bullpen. Politte was fresh. He didn't need to be pulled after one batter. Big deal if a lefty was at the plate. The hitter wasn't even representing the tying run.And if Politte had been left in and got rocked, everybody would have been complaining about that. Sometimes you lose even when you do make the right moves and sometimes you win even when you make the wrong moves. That's baseball.

Hangar18
04-07-2005, 06:45 PM
Ozzie's micromanaging backfired horribly. Even after Shingo blew the save, we still had a chance to win. Instead, we had to run a tired Vizcaino out there because there was nobody left.

Sums up this game. Ozzy Micromanaged himself out of this game .......
What I dont like is that hes done things like this last year .........
Cmon Ozz, we should be 3-0 and talk of the town ........ instead now
we know who the talk of the town will be instead ...........
I'll log on tomorrow afternoon from Minny

JB98
04-07-2005, 06:45 PM
He wasn't micromanaging. He was trying to get a little work for all of his bullpen guys just to keep them stretched out and going against live pitching. They hadn't pitched yet in the series, and they need to be sharp against the Twins. It was actually a smart move. It just backfired because Shingo sucked today.

Marte, Cotts and Vizcaino all worked yesterday. They didn't need to be in the game unless absolutely necessary. Politte and Hermanson could have handled the set-up work just fine. Those were the guys who HADN'T PITCHED in previous games. If he was trying to get Politte "stretched out," why did he pull him after just one hitter?

Lip Man 1
04-07-2005, 06:46 PM
What really hurts about today's game is that Martinez, Haffner and the big boppers didn't beat us...Casey Blake, Coco Crisp and Ronnie Belliard DID.

THAT is friggin' inexcusable.

By the way I put the stereo on right after the game to try to forget about the melt-down, do you know what the song was that was playing when it came on?

"I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues," by Elton John.

No I'm not joking! Typical.....

Lip

MeanFish
04-07-2005, 06:46 PM
I've gotta say, this isn't nearly as pessimistic as I thought it was going to be. All we can do is hope that the team/coaching adjusts and learns from what happened today.

We had great performances out of question marks Iguchi and Contreras, which is huge.

That is all :)

soxfan43
04-07-2005, 06:47 PM
33 pitches for shingo and 60 for vizcaino the game before the twins? Thats is idiotic. Times like these the sox sure miss nossek as bench coach

JB98
04-07-2005, 06:47 PM
And if Politte had been left in and got rocked, everybody would have been complaining about that. Sometimes you lose even when you do make the right moves and sometimes you win even when you make the wrong moves. That's baseball.

I understand that, and I wouldn't be as critical if Politte had been left in and gotten rocked.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 06:47 PM
Well, Clement...if what they're saying in the clubhouse is true about Carlos, then we are definitely better off without him.

In other news............

WHAT IN THE HELL IS UP WITH CLOSERS RIGHT NOW??? It's like a systemic problem all over baseball! The first week of the season reeks of blown saves. Looper, Rivera, Wickman, Shingo......it's bad! I wonder if it's just those guys getting back into grooves after shutting off that pressure for an offseason.
I don't know, but it's crazy right now. No save situation is safe right now for ANYONE!!!

Fake Chet Lemon
04-07-2005, 06:48 PM
we shall see. look how much success nomo had in the beginning. and chan ho park. They pick up on these foreign pitchers. How many balls did shingo have hit to the track last year. I know it was a lot. Good closers dont blow 3 run leads. This is his first so ill give him a free pass. But even if he is lights out, he is old and they need to start grooming someone

Actually, good closers DO BLOW three run leads. All of them. Randy Johnson is pretty old too, if the Yanks want to replace him I think Kenny will take him.

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 06:48 PM
Here, everybody, grab a handful and chill out. It's just one game. Teams lose heartbreakers. It won't be the last.

:prozac

SpammySosa
04-07-2005, 06:49 PM
and I got the PTC, way to go AJ!

I am glad this is more important to you than a victory.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 06:49 PM
What really hurts about today's game is that Martinez, Haffner and the big boppers didn't beat us...Casey Blake, Coco Crisp and Ronnie Belliard DID.

THAT is friggin' inexcusable.

By the way I put the stereo on right after the game to try to forget about the melt-down, do you know what the song was that was playing when it came on?

"I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues," by Elton John.

No I'm not joking! Typical.....

Lip
Lip..that really sucks, man. When it rains, it pours.

Hangar18
04-07-2005, 06:49 PM
What hurts about this LOSS, was the fact we SHOULDNT have won yesterday, we didnt deserve it, making a WIN today all the more better.
Instead, todays LOSS Negates what we did yesterday and were still 2-1
instead of 3-0. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
We have to take advantage of Games like yesterday and Absolutely
minimize games like today. Its the difference between a 3-0 team
and a 2-1 team. dang!!!!!!! this Shouldnt have happened.

Clement's beard
04-07-2005, 06:51 PM
Replay of he JR interview with Silvy and Carmen coming up at 6:00 on ESPN 1000. That is a must hear.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 06:51 PM
I understand that, and I wouldn't be as critical if Politte had been left in and gotten rocked.
It's all so much easier in hindsight.

Like I said. Ozzie put the game in his closer's hands. Period. He lost because his closer lost.

Let's just hope the team bounces back. Hell, Cleveland did a damn good job of it after yesterday.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 06:52 PM
What hurts about this LOSS, was the fact we SHOULDNT have won yesterday, we didnt deserve it, making a WIN today all the more better.
Instead, todays LOSS Negates what we did yesterday and were still 2-1
instead of 3-0. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
We have to take advantage of Games like yesterday and Absolutely
minimize games like today. Its the difference between a 3-0 team
and a 2-1 team. dang!!!!!!! this Shouldnt have happened.
Well, the great thing about this game is that there's always that chance at redemption tomorrow night. The best salve for a burn like this is to get cranked up for a showdown in the Baggie Dome.

Let's Go Sox!!!!

JB98
04-07-2005, 06:52 PM
Here, everybody, grab a handful and chill out. It's just one game. Teams lose heartbreakers. It won't be the last.

:prozac

Hey, if we miss the playoffs by one game, it's days like these that we'll remember. I'm not jumping off a bridge or anything, but I don't see why it's wrong to criticize the team and/or the manager after this game. Yes, "It's early" and "It's only one game" and all those other cliches. But this game does count.

Fake Chet Lemon
04-07-2005, 06:53 PM
I wouldn't worry about it. I wouldn't cast about for team villains or someone to "blame." Sometimes this just happens. Shingo must have been off. That's going to happen with any pitcher. It won't be the last time he's off. He was roughed up a few times early last year and settled right in.

I wouldn't blame Ozzie for "mis-managing" the bullpen, either. He had his team in a strong position to win the game. If Shingo slams the door in the ninth, I don't think one single person would be able to say with any credibility, "Boy, Ozzie sure got lucky his closer protected that 3-run lead in the ninth. We only had one pitcher left!" After Ozzie's pitching moves in the 7th, I remember thinking to myself that he did a good job protecting the lead.

By the way, I read a thread somewhere mentioning that Shingo was being squeezed by the umpire. Any validity to this? What did his "stuff" look like today?

You beat me to this post. Let's take 2 or 3 in the dome and this game is a distant memory.

Jjav829
04-07-2005, 06:56 PM
I think we all need to turn to a wise man for advice....










:D:
Quote, Mark McGwire: "I'm not here to talk about the past."

Good advice. Let's use it and look forward to our first series with Minnesota. Let's also be thankful that Garland didn't pitch so that our rotation is still in order. This loss sucks, but I'd hate to see our rotation out of whack after 3 games.

Hangar18
04-07-2005, 06:57 PM
Well, the great thing about this game is that there's always that chance at redemption tomorrow night. The best salve for a burn like this is to get cranked up for a showdown in the Baggie Dome.

Let's Go Sox!!!!

I wouldve LOVED for us to be 3-0 heading to the BaggyDome.
Even if we lose 2 of 3, which is very likely, we would still limp out of
there 4-2 ........ Were setting ourselves up for trouble with a loss
like this. Cmon SOX, get MAD and SWEEP THIS WEEKEND
you have to now.

SoxxoS
04-07-2005, 06:59 PM
Guys...we started awesome last season...and IIRC, we beat the Twins pretty handily early...and that didnt mean jack ****. Its a long season. I am more concerned IF the league has caught up to Shingo...or if this is just an abberation. I think its the later.

We can't, however, continue blowing games...obviously. Right now, no worries. But a couple more blown saves, and we got problems.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 07:00 PM
Lost in the wreckage of the loss today were some pretty good signs....

--The Sox learned to hit a little today, and it was very refreshing to see singles and doubles scoring runs instead of homers all game. The players on this team seem to go with what the pitcher's giving them a whole lot better than previous teams. Yes, they did stop scoring in the 4th, but that's because Betancourt really put the clamps down. That guy's going to be a stud.

--Maybe we don't need to get rid of the Jose Jose Jose Jose song. Contreras may be able to handle the #3 role with style this year!

--Vizcaino, when given a chance to succeed (the one full inning he was MEANT to work) looked great. He was awesome. It's too bad that he had to take one for the team today.

--The Sox seem to play with a lot more focus. Their defense is first rate, and it will make the difference in a lot of wins and losses this year.

We've got a big series coming up, and folks, you've gotta think: If at the beginning of the year you were offered a 2-1 record to begin the year, you'd be happy. That's what we've got. Who cares about how we got there. Let's see the Sox give Minnesota a run!!

JB98
04-07-2005, 07:01 PM
Guys...we started awesome last season...and IIRC, we beat the Twins pretty handily early...and that didnt mean jack ****. Its a long season. I am more concerned IF the league has caught up to Shingo...or if this is just an abberation. I think its the later.

We can't, however, continue blowing games...obviously. Right now, no worries. But a couple more blown saves, and we got problems.

In fairness to Shingo, he has two blown saves in his Sox career, and both are against Cleveland. Maybe the Tribe just has his number. Something to think about when we play Cleveland next week and later in the season.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 07:04 PM
Guys...we started awesome last season...and IIRC, we beat the Twins pretty handily early...and that didnt mean jack ****. Its a long season. I am more concerned IF the league has caught up to Shingo...or if this is just an abberation. I think its the later.

We can't, however, continue blowing games...obviously. Right now, no worries. But a couple more blown saves, and we got problems.
We went through a rough couple of years with Billy Koch, but it led to Shingo coming into the spotlight. If Shingo can't close games, we've got a lot of padding to handle the load. Hermanson, Vizcaino, and Marte are all more than capable at the job. We'll be fine.

As far as how many games we've gotta take in Minnesota...I'd be happy with 2 this weekend. That would be ideal. The sky is not falling, and all is not lost. If we were 3-0, it wouldn't make that much more of a difference tomorrow if we lost Friday. We'd be just as pissed because we got beat by the Twins.

I'd rather see the team pissed off because they just got humiliated by the Indians than to see the team prance into Minnesota all overconfident and get thumped.

SoxxoS
04-07-2005, 07:08 PM
And most importantly...I hope this is a learning experience for Ozzie.

Sargeant79
04-07-2005, 07:10 PM
While I don't necessarily agree with the way Ozzie handled the pitching staff in the later innings, I can see why he did it. He was trying to use each guy in a specific situation and it came back to bite him in the ass later. The pitching moves in the seventh in themselves weren't a problem. Once we got to Shingo, everything was supposed to be fine and he would shut them down in the 9th. Unfortunately, Shingo had a bad day and we went to extra innings with few reinforcements available. As a manager, you don't plan your use of the pitching staff around the possibility of going to extra innings while you have a 3 run lead.

In other news: WOW! Did Contreras pitch well. I was one of the people calling for a move to the bullpen for him...man, did his performance today shut me up. He was locating most of his pitches really well and some of them really had a lot of movement. There were a couple times that he made a few Tribe batters look foolish in the early innings. IMO, this is the most disappointing aspect of today's loss: a waste of a great outing by Contreras. I hope he can do this again several more times this season.

Other bright spots: A.J. really hit the ball well today. Iguchi played like he knew what he was doing on both offense and defense. Pods found his way to the bases. Runs were manufactured.

Even though the loss was heartbreaking, there were a lot of good things accomplished today.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 07:11 PM
And most importantly...I hope this is a learning experience for Ozzie.
Very true. Hey...we are watching a guy get on the job training, and he's still 5 games over .500 in his short career. Lots of baseball left, folks!

PaleHosed
04-07-2005, 07:12 PM
<begin rant>This whole freeking thread is ridiculous. I am as bummed as anybody with what happened today, but come on! It's the third game of the season and you people are talking like its all over. You people who are saying that Ozzie micromanaged himself out of the game are the same people that would've been praising his management of the staff if Shingo closed it out and don't even try to tell me otherwise because it's obvious you are full of crap. We lost the game because Shingo had a bad outing and that's it. I'm sure he'll have more as well, every pitcher has off days.

You guys need to straighten up on here, after the first couple games you're acting like were gonna go 162-0 and after one freeking blown game our closer is worthless and our manager don't know how to manage a game? Sheesh, you guys are all gonna have mood disorders by the end of April. At least have a little optimism, we had some good performers today...Iguchi looked good, AJ looked good, and the starting pitcher we were all worried about pitched a great game. Not that any of you care but if I see another thread like this I'm banning myself from WSI til at least June, I don't need you eternal pessimists bringing me down all spring...I pretty excited about this team and I plan on staying that way until they prove me wrong -- like after a month or two not after one fricking game.</end rant>

Jurr
04-07-2005, 07:14 PM
While I don't necessarily agree with the way Ozzie handled the pitching staff in the later innings, I can see why he did it. He was trying to use each guy in a specific situation and it came back to bite him in the ass later. The pitching moves in the seventh in themselves weren't a problem. Once we got to Shingo, everything was supposed to be fine and he would shut them down in the 9th. Unfortunately, Shingo had a bad day and we went to extra innings with few reinforcements available. As a manager, you don't plan your use of the pitching staff around the possibility of going to extra innings while you have a 3 run lead.

In other news: WOW! Did Contreras pitch well. I was one of the people calling for a move to the bullpen for him...man, did his performance today shut me up. He was locating most of his pitches really well and some of them really had a lot of movement. There were a couple times that he made a few Tribe batters look foolish in the early innings. IMO, this is the most disappointing aspect of today's loss: a waste of a great outing by Contreras. I hope he can do this again several more times this season.

Other bright spots: A.J. really hit the ball well today. Iguchi played like he knew what he was doing on both offense and defense. Pods found his way to the bases. Runs were manufactured.

Even though the loss was heartbreaking, there were a lot of good things accomplished today.
Very well put. I was a little worried going into the season just how well this team was capable of playing. The Indians were picked to be some type of darkhorse juggernaut, and we gave 'em hell this week. This Sox team has had good starting pitching, good (for the most part) bullpen work, and the offense has the potential to be very competitive. Defense?? Hell yeah.

I feel a whole lot better about this bunch than I did Sunday night.

starboy0
04-07-2005, 07:14 PM
I've always said, no matter who our closer is; DO NOT BRING HIM IN WITH A 3 RUN LEAD. I said it about Hernandez, I said it about Foulke, and now I say it about Shingo. These guys are so "specialized" these days, that they are better at holding a 1 run lead than a 3 run lead. No need to bring in Takatsu when it's 5-2. Save the closers for a close; not to protect a 3 run lead.

You may have a point there...

Jurr
04-07-2005, 07:17 PM
<begin rant>This whole freeking thread is ridiculous. I am as bummed as anybody with what happened today, but come on! It's the third game of the season and you people are talking like its all over. You people who are saying that Ozzie micromanaged himself out of the game are the same people that would've been praising his management of the staff if Shingo closed it out and don't even try to tell me otherwise because it's obvious you are full of crap. We lost the game because Shingo had a bad outing and that's it. I'm sure he'll have more as well, every pitcher has off days.

You guys need to straighten up on here, after the first couple games you're acting like were gonna go 162-0 and after one freeking blown game our closer is worthless and our manager don't know how to manage a game? Sheesh, you guys are all gonna have mood disorders by the end of April. At least have a little optimism, we had some good performers today...Iguchi looked good, AJ looked good, and the starting pitcher we were all worried about pitched a great game. Not that any of you care but if I see another thread like this I'm banning myself from WSI til at least June, I don't need you eternal pessimists bringing me down all spring...I pretty excited about this team and I plan on staying that way until they prove me wrong -- like after a month or two not after one fricking game.</end rant>
Yikes...calm down, brother! You obviously don't know this board too well. That's the way these fans roll. It's the bitterness that makes Sox fans great. They know baseball and don't like to lose.

If you're going to leave WSI until June because of threads like these, I suggest you go (though we'd rather you stay) because it's just the way things are around here.

shoota
04-07-2005, 07:23 PM
Vizcaino and Posednek for Carlos Lee. Posednik and Vizcaino are going to have to produce and produce almost all the time or they will never hear the end of it.

:dtroll:

PaleHosed
04-07-2005, 07:25 PM
"Yikes...calm down, brother! You obviously don't know this board too well. That's the way these fans roll. It's the bitterness that makes Sox fans great. They know baseball and don't like to lose.

If you're going to leave WSI until June because of threads like these, I suggest you go (though we'd rather you stay) because it's just the way things are around here."

Sorry, it was a bit hot there i guess. It's just there have been some pretty ridculous comments in this thread. I don't post too much here but i'm in here everyday catching up on what's going on in the world of white sox baseball so I do know there tends to be a good amount of pessimism...it just seemed to me that it has gotten out of hand this afternoon.

starboy0
04-07-2005, 07:36 PM
I don't post too much here but i'm in here everyday catching up on what's going on in the world of white sox baseball so I do know there tends to be a good amount of pessimism...

We're going to be alright. Before the game started I was wondering how Contreras would do. He looked good. Our 1 and 2 hitters looked great! We knocked their starter out.

But it was a painful loss when you're on the verge of sweeping. I look at this as a place where you can come and blow off some steam and get it out of your system. There are a few people in here who are consistently pessimistic but they're part of the family too.

Welcome aboard.

AZChiSoxFan
04-07-2005, 07:40 PM
This will be interesting to watch. The thing that the Sox have preached all spring was how great the chemistry was with this bunch. Chemistry (especially with the recent Lee and Maggs slams) may have not been that great before. In Sox history, they haven't bounced back well from losses like this.

If the Sox have the chemistry they're talking about, they'll rally the troops and give the Twins hell. Jose Contreras and his performance today is actually the most important thing that happened today.

You make two great points. Some teams bounce back well from games like these and some don't. Over the course of a 162 game season, you're going to have some games like the one today, it's inevitable. The important thing, IMO, is how the team responds the next time out. I'm very anxious to see how the Sox come out tomorrow night.

It was nice to see a strong outing by Contreras.

chisoxmike
04-07-2005, 07:44 PM
This is game we should've won #1. Shingo sucked. Thats it. The offense did all it could do today. Yes, Ozzie overused the bullpen, but if Contreras gave up the runs, we would be calling for his head.

AZChiSoxFan
04-07-2005, 07:44 PM
Well, Clement...if what they're saying in the clubhouse is true about Carlos, then we are definitely better off without him.

In other news............

WHAT IN THE HELL IS UP WITH CLOSERS RIGHT NOW??? It's like a systemic problem all over baseball! The first week of the season reeks of blown saves. Looper, Rivera, Wickman, Shingo......it's bad! I wonder if it's just those guys getting back into grooves after shutting off that pressure for an offseason.
I don't know, but it's crazy right now. No save situation is safe right now for ANYONE!!!

Trevor Hoffman as well, on opening day in Denver. At least he has an excuse (Coors).

chisoxmike
04-07-2005, 07:52 PM
Trevor Hoffman as well, on opening day in Denver. At least he has an excuse (Coors).

The Sox opening series would not be complete without a total bullpen meltdown. :tongue:

JB98
04-07-2005, 07:55 PM
"Yikes...calm down, brother! You obviously don't know this board too well. That's the way these fans roll. It's the bitterness that makes Sox fans great. They know baseball and don't like to lose.

If you're going to leave WSI until June because of threads like these, I suggest you go (though we'd rather you stay) because it's just the way things are around here."

Sorry, it was a bit hot there i guess. It's just there have been some pretty ridculous comments in this thread. I don't post too much here but i'm in here everyday catching up on what's going on in the world of white sox baseball so I do know there tends to be a good amount of pessimism...it just seemed to me that it has gotten out of hand this afternoon.

Do you expect me to full of sunshine and optimism after a miserable loss? Sorry, it ain't happening. I think my criticisms of the Sox are perfectly reasonable.

FarWestChicago
04-07-2005, 07:57 PM
<begin rant>This whole freeking thread is ridiculous. I am as bummed as anybody with what happened today, but come on! It's the third game of the season and you people are talking like its all over. You people who are saying that Ozzie micromanaged himself out of the game are the same people that would've been praising his management of the staff if Shingo closed it out and don't even try to tell me otherwise because it's obvious you are full of crap. We lost the game because Shingo had a bad outing and that's it. I'm sure he'll have more as well, every pitcher has off days.

You guys need to straighten up on here, after the first couple games you're acting like were gonna go 162-0 and after one freeking blown game our closer is worthless and our manager don't know how to manage a game? Sheesh, you guys are all gonna have mood disorders by the end of April. At least have a little optimism, we had some good performers today...Iguchi looked good, AJ looked good, and the starting pitcher we were all worried about pitched a great game. Not that any of you care but if I see another thread like this I'm banning myself from WSI til at least June, I don't need you eternal pessimists bringing me down all spring...I pretty excited about this team and I plan on staying that way until they prove me wrong -- like after a month or two not after one fricking game.</end rant>Welcome to the psychosis that is Sox Clubhouse. Talking Baseball and The Parking Lot are good forums, though. :D:

The Racehorse
04-07-2005, 08:27 PM
tough loss today. :mad:

nasox
04-07-2005, 08:37 PM
Welcome to the psychosis that is Sox Clubhouse. Talking Baseball and The Parking Lot are good forums, though. :D:

SO that's why we never see you in the clubhouse. Because you're sane......:D:

ChicagoHoosier
04-07-2005, 08:49 PM
Being fairly new to WSI (just check out my low number of posts), I am getting a kick out of the different opinions being voiced here. I think I agree with those who are trying not to blow this out of proportion. I yelled quite a bit at the TV in my office today - working from home, and it especially hurt because I was instant messenging with a good friend from Cleveland as I brought the GONG out for him and started taunting prematurely to start the 9th inning.

Very tough loss. But this is nothing compared to last year's opening game vs. KC that we blew in the 9th which made me vommit on my television. This one at least you can look at the silver lining that others have pointed out, my focus being on Contreras pitching so well, and just need to be happy taking 2/3 in our first series against the team most picked ahead of us this year, looking decent other than one aspect in our loss (I agree that if Shingo gets that 3rd out or just doesn't serve up the three gopher balls everyone is continuing down the 162-0 path), and trying to have optimism for a bigger series to show what this team is made of early on starting tomorrow.

Let's see how we react tomorrow.

On a side note, going to my first Opening Day here was AWESOME! Sitting in 154 near the bullpen to see Buerhle warming up, seeing Shingo come in wtih the gong, feeling the excitement... Makes me very proud to be the only Sox fan among my Flub-friendly group of friends.

Shorty1983
04-07-2005, 08:55 PM
What was going through Cooper/Guillen mind(s) when they had Chris Widger throwing some side bullpen pitches? I know we were desperate to get Vizcaino out of that mess but c'mon he's a backup catcher!

chisox06
04-07-2005, 09:17 PM
And if Politte had been left in and got rocked, everybody would have been complaining about that. Sometimes you lose even when you do make the right moves and sometimes you win even when you make the wrong moves. That's baseball.

Exactly, if all the couch managers know for sure how this could have turned our differently, go buy a lottery ticket.

Lip Man 1
04-07-2005, 09:24 PM
Question, if anyone watched the post game autopsy show did Ozzie give ANY reasons why he pulled a fresh Hermansen who pitched a solid 8th inning for his closer with a three run lead?

The more I think about this game the more pissed off I'm getting. That was just plain stupid. Closers (especially with a freaky pitch) do NOT come in to close out games with a three run lead. Especially when that same team saw that freaky pitch just two days before. This was unnecessary. I would have let Hermansen keep going until at least someone got on base. Now if Hermansen told Ozzie he didn't feel right or something was wrong, that's a different story.

That's why I'd like to know Ozzie's rational.

I agree with Sam Smith who was at the game then appeared on Chicago Tribune Live (which talked about the game for the first fifteen minutes of the show), Ozzie outmanaged himself today. It potentially cost the game (since there is no way of knowing what would have happened if Dustin had been left in) and completely blows up the bullpen for Friday.

*By the way satellite owners, according to the MLB Extra Innings slate the Friday game will NOT be available and it's also not being shown on Comcast Chicago or Fox Sports North (Twins..)

Lip

A. Cavatica
04-07-2005, 09:28 PM
I'm wondering why Contreras didn't start the seventh, but it is the first game of the season, so everyone's probably on a pitch count...a few weeks later, Ozzie would let him keep going.Ozzie used too many pitchers, but it's really not fair to look beyond Shingo tonight. I'm sure he'll shrug it off.

ode to veeck
04-07-2005, 09:29 PM
Palehosed, Welcome to WSI!

No better time to leave the lurkers and start posting than now. To pour a little water on the fire following the Sox loss today is a good thing. It's a long season folks.

Flight #24
04-07-2005, 09:56 PM
we shall see. look how much success nomo had in the beginning. and chan ho park. They pick up on these foreign pitchers. How many balls did shingo have hit to the track last year. I know it was a lot. Good closers dont blow 3 run leads. This is his first so ill give him a free pass. But even if he is lights out, he is old and they need to start grooming someone

Good move ignoring Nomo's 2 pretty good years before starting to tail off/et injured as well as his sparkling 2003....or that Chan Ho Park really had only 1 good year: in his 4th as a fulltime starter.

As for your "good closers don't blow 3-run leads" comment, I can only point you to...well....about every good closer there is outside of maybe Gagne. They've all blown 3-run leads on occasion.

infohawk
04-07-2005, 09:56 PM
For those out of the loop like me, care to elaborate?

I assume he is referring to the gentleman wearing the "M&Ms" jacket directly behind home plate??? He was in the same spot in one (or both) of the previous games. Can't miss him with that loud jacket!!!

Flight #24
04-07-2005, 09:58 PM
Here, everybody, grab a handful and chill out. It's just one game. Teams lose heartbreakers. It won't be the last.



No to mention, we're 2-1 and our starting pitching has an ERA of about 1.35 after playing a good offensive ballclub in a hitters park.

And in the most important stat of all, games out of first - we're at 0.

PAPChiSox729
04-07-2005, 10:01 PM
And in the most important stat of all, games out of first - we're at 0.

Let's hope things stay like that.
:D:

A. Cavatica
04-07-2005, 10:03 PM
i think we need another long reliever in the pen instead of ozuna. get adkins back up here.

Great idea! I think Adkins started for Charlotte tonight. I wonder how he did?

JB98
04-07-2005, 10:08 PM
Exactly, if all the couch managers know for sure how this could have turned our differently, go buy a lottery ticket.

Exactly. How dare we question the moves of a proven managerial genius like Ozzie Guillen?

infohawk
04-07-2005, 10:15 PM
Guys...we started awesome last season...and IIRC, we beat the Twins pretty handily early...and that didnt mean jack ****. Its a long season. I am more concerned IF the league has caught up to Shingo...or if this is just an abberation. I think its the later.

I "tivoed" the game today even though I was tracking it from work. I watched the 9th inning when I got home to see how Shingo looked. I actually came away feeling a little better after watching Shingo pitch. The reason is because he was clearly having control problems. He didn't look like himself at all. Certainly not as sharp as he did on Monday. I think we can avoid any needless worry that the League has figured him out.

He missed his location on a few pitches by quite a bit. Some key pitches were very close, probably balls, but on any given night a different umpire might have been generous. He was ending up in many 2-2 and 3-2 situations, seemed to really struggle with locating his slow stuff and the hitters consequently sat on his fastball. I wouldn't be surprised if he just begins most seasons with some inconsistency. He was a little shaky to start last season. Once he gets locked in though, we know what he can do.

The Sox and Tribe just exchanged days beating up on closers who weren't sharp on that day. Cleveland pretty much outplayed us on Wednesday. We didn't all of a sudden remember how to hit in the 9th inning, but took advantage of Wickman throwing fat pitches right over the plate.

infohawk
04-07-2005, 10:19 PM
<begin rant> Sheesh, you guys are all gonna have mood disorders by the end of April.

What do you mean "gonna." :redneck

I agree. Everyone needs to relax!

PAPChiSox729
04-07-2005, 10:22 PM
He missed his location on a few pitches by quite a bit. Some key pitches were very close, probably balls, but on any given night a different umpire might have been generous. He was ending up in many 2-2 and 3-2 situations, seemed to really struggle with locating his slow stuff and the hitters consequently sat on his fastball. I wouldn't be surprised if he just begins most seasons with some inconsistency. He was a little shaky to start last season. Once he gets locked in though, we know what he can do.

Nice post. I completely agree. I didn't think Shingo's stuff was that bad. He would just fall behind the hitters and they would sit on his fastball. I am not ready to give up on Shingo yet. Let him have a few more opprotunities so he can get locked in.

infohawk
04-07-2005, 10:25 PM
No to mention, we're 2-1 and our starting pitching has an ERA of about 1.35 after playing a good offensive ballclub in a hitters park.

And in the most important stat of all, games out of first - we're at 0.

How about this little nugget. We were outscored 14-10 in a three game series and still won two out of three games. We're usually the team outscoring the opponent and dropping two out of three. That's got to be a good thing! :cool:

chez742002
04-07-2005, 10:30 PM
Today was a bad day for the Sox!
It was not because they lost, it was how they lost. :whiner:

The main person at fault for this loss was Ozzie. :angry:

Yes! Shingo stunk, but Ozzie should have not pitched Hermanson in the eighth at all or he should have pitched two innings especially since all Ozzie had left in the bullpen was Shingo and Vizcaino and he breezed through the eighth.

Managers are supposed to always be a head of the game and if they are not, they need to be fired. It was totally unacceptable to have to force Vizcaino to pitch over two innings after he pitched over 1 inning yesterday. I hope Ozzie apologizes to Vizcaino because he had to pitch through that crap and Contreras because he pitched a great game. Ozzie used 6 pitchers and five relievers in a game in which the starter gave him 6 innings. He used Cotts even though he pitched two innings yesterday, he gave Politte one batter and Marte one batter. Then he goes to Hermanson who breezes through the inning. Why would you go to Shingo in that circumstance? It made no sense!!! He has no clue how to manage a bullpen and a good one at that. Vizcaino was tired after his one inning and the kid had to come back out after that because all the Sox had was him. They even had to warm up Garland!!

That was terrible, once again the Sox were unable to sweep a series! Even though it is so early, it has once again proven that Ozzie is a fun manager and was and is a great White Sox man, but he is not very smart. He joked about how smart he was in the 1st game for bringing in Gload as a defensive replacement, I hope he tells everyone on the team how dumb he really is!

He is not all the blame, but, the job of a manager is not to win games, but to lose as games as little as possible. Ozzie lost this game and his team gave him a winning effort; he needs to stop talking about how hard is players are playing and start talking about how he needs to learn how to manage and do it quickly! He needs a better bench coach, I love Harold and I believe he deserves to be in the organization and is a good asset, maybe as a hitting coach, but the Sox need someone like Jeff Torborg, who has managerial experience and would not have allowed Ozzie to make such a bad mistake. Harold could and should help the hitters right now and in the future because the team is not hitting well and I think Walker is not getting through to Rowand, Crede or Uribe and the team needs those guys to hit or the season is over right now!!!:angry:

:dtroll:

Tragg
04-07-2005, 10:38 PM
I tend to agree. Dinking around lefty/righty 1/3, 1/3 in the 6th/7th leaves you with zero leverage in the 8th and 9th. We had a 3 run lead going into the 9th, so no reason to immediately put in the closer.

munchman33
04-07-2005, 10:41 PM
I feel we need to add a post before the original post. It should go something like this:

:hawk
"C'mon, STRETCH!!!"



You can't blame a manager when the closer blows a ball game. It's his role. He's supposed to end the game there. You play to win, not to have insurance in case you don't. Shingo is the ace of the pen and should be out there in the ninth.

Now if Shingo continues to struggle and Ozzie doesn't redefine his role, then it becomes Ozzie's fault.

SoxSpeed22
04-07-2005, 10:42 PM
Today was a bad day for the Sox!
It was not because they lost, it was how they lost. :whiner:

The main person at fault for this loss was Ozzie. :angry:

Yes! Shingo stunk, but Ozzie should have not pitched Hermanson in the eighth at all or he should have pitched two innings especially since all Ozzie had left in the bullpen was Shingo and Vizcaino and he breezed through the eighth.

Managers are supposed to always be a head of the game and if they are not, they need to be fired. It was totally unacceptable to have to force Vizcaino to pitch over two innings after he pitched over 1 inning yesterday. I hope Ozzie apologizes to Vizcaino because he had to pitch through that crap and Contreras because he pitched a great game. Ozzie used 6 pitchers and five relievers in a game in which the starter gave him 6 innings. He used Cotts even though he pitched two innings yesterday, he gave Politte one batter and Marte one batter. Then he goes to Hermanson who breezes through the inning. Why would you go to Shingo in that circumstance? It made no sense!!! He has no clue how to manage a bullpen and a good one at that. Vizcaino was tired after his one inning and the kid had to come back out after that because all the Sox had was him. They even had to warm up Garland!!

That was terrible, once again the Sox were unable to sweep a series! Even though it is so early, it has once again proven that Ozzie is a fun manager and was and is a great White Sox man, but he is not very smart. He joked about how smart he was in the 1st game for bringing in Gload as a defensive replacement, I hope he tells everyone on the team how dumb he really is!

He is not all the blame, but, the job of a manager is not to win games, but to lose as games as little as possible. Ozzie lost this game and his team gave him a winning effort; he needs to stop talking about how hard is players are playing and start talking about how he needs to learn how to manage and do it quickly! He needs a better bench coach, I love Harold and I believe he deserves to be in the organization and is a good asset, maybe as a hitting coach, but the Sox need someone like Jeff Torborg, who has managerial experience and would not have allowed Ozzie to make such a bad mistake. Harold could and should help the hitters right now and in the future because the team is not hitting well and I think Walker is not getting through to Rowand, Crede or Uribe and the team needs those guys to hit or the season is over right now!!!:angry:

:dtroll::prozac Say it loud 3 GAMES INTO THE SEASON! True Ozzie completely *&%#ed up today. The problem was that he did not have a backup plan if Shingo faltered, which he did. As for the offense, they still need to gel, once these guys start getting on the rest will like as itself. Ozzie learned the painful way that backup plans are necessary in baseball.

The_Cheesiest_Idiot
04-07-2005, 10:48 PM
growing pains with an unproven manager. back to back 9th inning comebacks, you think would be rare but this happens ALOT in baseball. i remember a couple years ago when the sox came back and beat the mariners when Sasaki was pitching. i think it was a 3 run comeback. sasaki was as dominant as you can get. the very next night foulke gave up the same lead. i'm pissed like everyone else. but ozzy did overmanage!!! and the sox wasted probably one of the best performances they will get from contreras. :angry:

the sky's not falling. but we got hit with some bird sh*t today.

The_Cheesiest_Idiot
04-07-2005, 10:52 PM
As for the offense, they still need to gel,

this i also BLAME on ozzie. i said it many times during the spring, and was made fun of by some jackasses on this board, that ozzie needed to play his everyday lineup so they could get comfortable playin with each other. look at the spring games. i don't think there was ONE SINGLE GAME where ozzie actually used his starting 9 in their positions and batting order. these guys should be "gellin" already.

oeo
04-07-2005, 10:52 PM
It really makes me angry, and I can feel it in my stomach...they were one strike, ONE STRIKE away from winning that game. :angry:

cwsfannick
04-07-2005, 10:58 PM
One of the decisions that I would question Ozzie on is the decision to let Uribe swing away in the bottom of the fourth with men on 1st and 2nd and no outs. Uribe fails to move the runners over because he strikes out. In my opinion Uribe should have been bunting to advance the runners to second and third. Pods comes up and single's up the middle only scoring 1 instead of scoring two.

In the end we still would have lost, but if Sox are going to play small ball, then play small ball.

ChiSoxRowand
04-07-2005, 10:59 PM
Most of the blame for today's game has to go with Shingo. He is our CLOSER and he blew a 3 run lead. I do not necessarily agree with Ozzie's bullpen management, but I will defend him somewhat-maybe part of the reason he did what he did is because it is the 3rd game of the year and he wanted to get guys like Hermanson and Politte who haven't pitched yet some innings, especially before the Twins series. And I know this is easy to say now, but I am not sure about Gload as a late inning replacement at 1st. It is tough to take our best bat out of the lineup. On another note, was anyone else suprised that Belliard didn't start today?

Brian26
04-07-2005, 11:01 PM
This one hurt, but it hurt a hell of a lot less than it would have on Opening Day. So let's all get over it and move on. We won the series. If we do this for the rest of the year, we'll have 100 wins.

guillen4life13
04-07-2005, 11:03 PM
Ok everybody. Breathe. Deep, slow, consistent breaths.

Now say it along with me: "Everything is going to be okay. Everything will be okay."

Now read what I have to say: I didn't see the game, but anyone making such drastic complaints this early in the season needs to reread my first line. Ozzie should not be fired because your hindsight is 20/20. Everyone's hindsight is 20/20. In the 9th, who does a manager go to if he has a lead of less than 4 runs? You guessed it. His closer. If the closer doesn't manage to do his job, then it's his fault, not Ozzie's. As said earlier, if this performance continues from Shingo, then he gets yanked from that slot. Simple. Ozzie needs to do his best to keep the pen fresh. He didn't do a good job with Vizcaino, but when games start to go into extra innings, your bullpen situation starts to get a lot more difficult to manage. Did I mention hindsight is 20/20?

So everybody: go walk your dog or do something to calm down and stop hyperventilating about it. Shingo blew a save. It happens. The Sox won the series 2-1 against a team that is supposedly better than them according to most sports journalists. So chill.

Sargeant79
04-07-2005, 11:05 PM
I think Walker is not getting through to Rowand, Crede or Uribe and the team needs those guys to hit or the season is over right now!!!

:dtroll:

I think you have a point with most of what you're saying, but I've gotta disagree with your take on Rowand, Crede, and Uribe. First off, its too early to make a generalization as to whether or not someone is hitting well. Give it a month or so and comment on it again. It may be different or it may not, but by then there's a longer track record to base your argument on. Now if you're including last year in your statement, well, with Crede, you're probably right. But Rowand had a great year last year and even Uribe did a pretty good job. Either way, all three need more time before an accurate assessment of their performances can be made.

TornLabrum
04-07-2005, 11:12 PM
Almost every team loses at least 60 games in a season. If we were to continue to win at the 2-1 pace we've started at, our final record would be 108-54. I could live with that.

I don't know why managers do this nowadays, and I blame most of it on TLaR, but every pitcher now must have a role. Shingo's is closer. What you will find if you watch other managers at work is that they will do the same exact thing Ozzie did today, sit back and watch his closer get shelled and blow the lead, before going to the pen to replace the closer. I guess it's the fragile egos of today's players....

But no, the sky is not falling!

crector
04-07-2005, 11:14 PM
Today was a bad day for the Sox!
It was not because they lost, it was how they lost. :whiner:

The main person at fault for this loss was Ozzie. :angry:

Yes! Shingo stunk, but Ozzie should have not pitched Hermanson in the eighth at all or he should have pitched two innings especially since all Ozzie had left in the bullpen was Shingo and Vizcaino and he breezed through the eighth.

Managers are supposed to always be a head of the game and if they are not, they need to be fired. It was totally unacceptable to have to force Vizcaino to pitch over two innings after he pitched over 1 inning yesterday. I hope Ozzie apologizes to Vizcaino because he had to pitch through that crap and Contreras because he pitched a great game. Ozzie used 6 pitchers and five relievers in a game in which the starter gave him 6 innings. He used Cotts even though he pitched two innings yesterday, he gave Politte one batter and Marte one batter. Then he goes to Hermanson who breezes through the inning. Why would you go to Shingo in that circumstance? It made no sense!!! He has no clue how to manage a bullpen and a good one at that. Vizcaino was tired after his one inning and the kid had to come back out after that because all the Sox had was him. They even had to warm up Garland!!

That was terrible, once again the Sox were unable to sweep a series! Even though it is so early, it has once again proven that Ozzie is a fun manager and was and is a great White Sox man, but he is not very smart. He joked about how smart he was in the 1st game for bringing in Gload as a defensive replacement, I hope he tells everyone on the team how dumb he really is!

He is not all the blame, but, the job of a manager is not to win games, but to lose as games as little as possible. Ozzie lost this game and his team gave him a winning effort; he needs to stop talking about how hard is players are playing and start talking about how he needs to learn how to manage and do it quickly! He needs a better bench coach, I love Harold and I believe he deserves to be in the organization and is a good asset, maybe as a hitting coach, but the Sox need someone like Jeff Torborg, who has managerial experience and would not have allowed Ozzie to make such a bad mistake. Harold could and should help the hitters right now and in the future because the team is not hitting well and I think Walker is not getting through to Rowand, Crede or Uribe and the team needs those guys to hit or the season is over right now!!!:angry:

:dtroll:


Now you know why some of us, such as myself, were completely opposed to Ozzie becoming manager. He's a buffoon in the manner of Terry Bevington. Problem is, the team is good enough to make Ozzie look good while simultaneously never making the playoffs, so we could be stuck with our version of Dusty Baker for a long time.

infohawk
04-07-2005, 11:14 PM
I wrote in another post that I watched the 9th inning when I got home from work (tivo). I wanted to see what Shingo's stuff looked like. His control was clearly off. He struggled to get his fastball to hit the corners and his slow stuff was drifting well wide. He fell behind hitters, threw too many pitches to each batter and got burned when he they sat on a fastball he couldn't locate. The League hasn't figured him out, he was just off. He'll be fine.

On Baseball Tonight this evening they were discussing why so many bullpens are struggling during the first few games. The guys attributed it to relievers, especially closers, not getting enough work in spring training games. The analysts said that the relievers will get better after they stretch their arms out more and begin hitting the corners. Shingo struggled early last year as well. We all know what he can do after getting locked in.

Keep in mind, its not just Shingo. Looper, Foulke, Wickman, Rivera (twice), and Hoffman have all blown saves. Dave Veras, relieving for the Orioles in the late innings, gave up a three-run homer tonight.

Daver
04-07-2005, 11:16 PM
But no, the sky is not falling!

No, the sky is not falling.

And yes, the hispanic Terry Beavington still has no clue on how to handle a bullpen.

JB98
04-07-2005, 11:19 PM
No, the sky is not falling.

And yes, the hispanic Terry Beavington still has no clue on how to handle a bullpen.

Thank you. That's the point I've been trying to make all day. And people have been telling me to take my Prozac. I am fully aware that we were not eliminated from playoff contention today. However, that does not change the fact that today's game was totally mismanaged.

Gosox1917
04-07-2005, 11:32 PM
Well, I was at the game today and I haven't read through all your posts because I already had to sit through the damn thing live I really don't feel like reliving it again. Anyway, it was simply an awful game that we should've won. Shingo was throwing bp to Cleveland and Ozzie left Vizcaino in too long. Not that he had much of a choice considering he had about nobody left to come in, but he was left out too long. Let's let this one go and stomp on the Twinkies.

chez742002
04-07-2005, 11:33 PM
I know it is early and I know it probably will not make a big deal, but it was how they lost, not that they lost. :whiner:

:angry: The Indians were down, they lost a tough one yesterday and we could have killed them. But we did not!! I hope nothing comes out of this loss, but a loss like this could hurt the team and help the Indians which we did not want to happen. I hope everything is OK and I am not getting crazy about this loss, but a manager is paid to lead and he needs to plan out all things that are possible and Ozzie did not! It was a bad loss by the manager; and yes, it is partly Shingo's fault, but it should have been a win and if the Sox lose the division by one game than this is one to look at.

All games are important, especially divisional foes, even if it is early! I just think we ned to get someone in the dugout with some strategic, coaching experience because this could happen again and if it does, there is no excuse!! I am just angry, but Iwas happy about Contreras and he deserved a win which would have helped his confidence (what he needs) and Vizcaino is just beaten up and the Sox need him badly. I just think Hermanson should have stayed in for the ninth because he pitched so well and he was unused in the first two games. I also thought Buerhle should have finished the opener because Shingo struggled early last year, too.

I just hope everything goes well for this team because I really need a White Sox playoff team because the Flubbies are soooo annoying!!!

Lets just hope everything goes well in the next two series because they are important!!! I was sooo scared when I saw Garland warming up because there was no need for that to happen and all Garland needs is a blow to his confidence because Ozzie misused the bullpen!!

:gulp: Here's to 2 out of 3!!
:gulp: Here's to 2 out of 3 this weekend against the Twinkies!!
:gulp: and Here's to 2 out of 3 in Cleveland!!!

Then we can have something to:dtroll: :gulp: :bandance: about!!!

batmanZoSo
04-08-2005, 12:19 AM
Ozzie and Shino just layed a big turd out there today. Hopefully it's not a sign of things to come, especially with Shingo. Just when we're looking good to start the season, our closer looks like a little leaguer who can't get anyone out. It's definitely a cause for concern.

shoota
04-08-2005, 12:27 AM
All day I've been thinking of what could have been: 3-0 record, confidence heading in to Minnesota and good vibes all around. I've recently thought that while we just missed the sweep, we're lucky that we didn't get swept ourselves! The first game was a scoreless until a 7th inning Cleveland error. The second game we didn't score until the 9th inning, when we somehow overcame a 3-0 deficit off of Cleveland's closer. And granted we should have won the final game of the season, but we did wind up losing it. So, my point is, I'm just grateful to be 2-1 when we could have been 0-3.

I cannot wait until the Minnesota series. If we win two games there, it will really calm me down about the prospects of this 2005 team.

FarWestChicago
04-08-2005, 12:32 AM
SO that's why we never see you in the clubhouse. Because you're sane......:D:Well, compared to most of the nutcases in this forum. :D:

StockdaleForVeep
04-08-2005, 12:42 AM
Stop worryin people, its only one game, this isnt a melt down

brewcrew/chisox
04-08-2005, 01:17 AM
Pods stole 3rd today

The Gooch three for five with an RBI

AJ with a homer

Contreras 6 innings, 4 hits, 1 run

Sox took 2 out of 3 and are tied for 1st place

we will take 2 of 3 this weekend

Now I feel better

Rocklive99
04-08-2005, 02:09 AM
Finally got onto here, I saw the whole game, but didn't want to look here right after/during the game because of the whole "sky is falling mentality" Doesn't seem that bad tho

Jeez, after a beautifully managed 9th by Ozzie yesterday, a lot of questionable calls today. I'm not worried about Shingo (He just didn't have it, it happens. I don't think it was a case of him being figured out after seeing the ball 4 he threw on that one walk) or Vizcaino (misused). Positives, Contreras of course, and the hitting is coming around, still an issue that has always haunted the Sox tho is scoring runs early and then falling asleep late in the game, hopefully that should get better as the season goes on. These games always happen, trust me, all the other team message boards probably go through the same "Sky is falling" mentality, just a shame that it happened right before Minny, hope they don't carry this over.

Rocklive99
04-08-2005, 02:14 AM
The entire game there was an old guy sitting right over Pierzynski's right shoulder wearing the most hideous, most heinous looking yellow M&Ms jacket. A true atrocity against fashion and common sense. It was clear that Shingo was distracted by the looming yellow patch in the background. U.S. Cellular Field needs to enforce a dress code for those seats. :angry:


Damn you, M&M, damn you!

LMAO, I saw that guy too, did you see when the ball was fouled straight back and would've hit him the face? I saw it and was like, 'don't tell me that's an M&M jacket' I blame him too

balke
04-08-2005, 02:21 AM
We were chanting sweep, the stadium was getting loud. I started running my mouth about how the Indians suck, and they can't hit. There was one out left, and Shingo already threw a few strikes from where I was sitting that should've ended the game.

I'm in shock, I went to a concert after the game, this really kinda ruined my otherwise great night. Our team still looks amazing I say, looks like we have a new problem though, til he gets in a rhythm I guess. I hope they haven't just figured him out.

We can erase all the pain by getting a solid outing from El Duque I think. 4 straight great starts, w/ a workable problem in the pen. The season is not lost, in fact its just beginning and looks to be a great one coming.

wdelaney72
04-08-2005, 07:16 AM
This team needs to go that doctor from Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. And quick.:bundy

Please don't reference that movie. I wasted my anniversary on that pile of garbage.

wdelaney72
04-08-2005, 07:32 AM
You can't blame a manager when the closer blows a ball game. It's his role. He's supposed to end the game there. You play to win, not to have insurance in case you don't. Shingo is the ace of the pen and should be out there in the ninth.

Now if Shingo continues to struggle and Ozzie doesn't redefine his role, then it becomes Ozzie's fault.

As much as I hate the use of this many pitchers in any game, I'll have to agree with you. Shingo IS the closer. Ozzie's has to have faith that he will close the game. Last I checked, a 3-run lead is a save opportunity, which calls for your closer.

I'll still believe in Shingo, as I'm sure Ozzie will. If Shingo struggles (and I don't think he will), I hope Ozzie keeps a shorter leash than he did with Koch.

LVSoxFan
04-08-2005, 11:15 AM
I was at this game yesterday. You know, with the other 4,000 people, LOL.

Up until the 9th, it was textbook Sox: a homer, good hitting, stolen bases (stealing 3rd! NICE!) and Contreras was killin'.

Two outs we're all on our feet and... splat.

Hey it happens. That was probably the ugliest Sox loss I've witnessed (positively Cubs-like!) but I'm not going to cancel the season because of it.

Let's get to the real point here: what was so gut-wrenching was not only did Shingo give up a homer, not just back-to-back homers, but THREE in a row. THAT is what was so disturbing; not the loss, not the pitcher parade... but we saw our Superman get rocked. Like never before. And it hurt.

But here's the reality: we have 159 more games to play, people. I'd rather see Shingo get his kinks out now then suddenly start foundering in August.

That said, yes: it did seem like we used an awful lot of pitchers for no reason. What, Politte or Cotts or Hermanson couldn't have finished it off?

But let's move on. We take 2 out of 3 from the Twinkies and all is forgiven.

Ol' No. 2
04-08-2005, 11:23 AM
I was at this game yesterday. You know, with the other 4,000 people, LOL.

Up until the 9th, it was textbook Sox: a homer, good hitting, stolen bases (stealing 3rd! NICE!) and Contreras was killin'.

Two outs we're all on our feet and... splat.

Hey it happens. That was probably the ugliest Sox loss I've witnessed (positively Cubs-like!) but I'm not going to cancel the season because of it.

Let's get to the real point here: what was so gut-wrenching was not only did Shingo give up a homer, not just back-to-back homers, but THREE in a row. THAT is what was so disturbing; not the loss, not the pitcher parade... but we saw our Superman get rocked. Like never before. And it hurt.

But here's the reality: we have 159 more games to play, people. I'd rather see Shingo get his kinks out now then suddenly start foundering in August.

That said, yes: it did seem like we used an awful lot of pitchers for no reason. What, Politte or Cotts or Hermanson couldn't have finished it off?

But let's move on. We take 2 out of 3 from the Twinkies and all is forgiven.There's no way you leave Cotts in to face Belliard (who hits 50 pts higher against LHP) when a hit brings the tying run to the plate. And there's no way you leave in Politte to face Hafner. Politte sucks against LH batters and Hafner hits 80 pts higher against RHP. You might argue that he should have left Hermanson in to pitch the 9th, but then he would not be available today after pitching 2 innings. By pitching Hermanson and Shingo 1 inning each, then both (if it had gone the way it was supposed to) would be available today. The best laid plans...

LVSoxFan
04-08-2005, 12:42 PM
I won't argue with that.

We'll just leave it at what it was then: Shingo blew it. Oh well.

Too bad! That was such a nice game going into that 9th.

RKMeibalane
04-08-2005, 01:46 PM
By the way I put the stereo on right after the game to try to forget about the melt-down, do you know what the song was that was playing when it came on?

"I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues," by Elton John.

No I'm not joking! Typical.....

Lip

I believe it. When it was announced that Frank Thomas was out for the season, the following song came on the radio:

"Nah, nah, nah, nah, hey, hey, hey, goodbye!"

Rocklive99
04-08-2005, 06:18 PM
OMG, watching the Flub late inning meltdown, and guess who's at the game, about 1st or second row, just to the side of the camera behind home plate... YELLOW M&M Wearing the same clothes and jacket, I officially blame him for what happened yesterday now :angry:

jerry myers
04-08-2005, 06:19 PM
shingo stunk. move on

Rocklive99
04-08-2005, 06:34 PM
shingo stunk. move on

I'm over it, and didn't think it was that big a deal yesterday, but the big deal here is this Yellow M&M guy, he's got to be stopped

chisoxmike
04-08-2005, 06:36 PM
OMG, watching the Flub late inning meltdown, and guess who's at the game, about 1st or second row, just to the side of the camera behind home plate... YELLOW M&M Wearing the same clothes and jacket, I officially blame him for what happened yesterday now :angry:

Lets not start blaming fans for our losses.

SpammySosa
04-08-2005, 10:15 PM
I believe it. When it was announced that Frank Thomas was out for the season, the following song came on the radio:

"Nah, nah, nah, nah, hey, hey, hey, goodbye!"

It must have been AM720,those bastards.:cool: