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gosox41
04-06-2005, 10:10 AM
Got this off the baseballprimer website. It was written by Anthony Giacalone (I think he posts here but he used to be at alt.whitesox ng.) He brings up some good points about the team and organizaiton.


http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/main/article/chicago_white_sox_preview05/


Bob

mikehuff
04-06-2005, 10:39 AM
Holy crap, that's a lot to read. I like the assesments of the minor league guys. I didn't know Josh Fields was a strikeout guy. I don't like strikeout guys.

gosox41
04-06-2005, 12:01 PM
Holy crap, that's a lot to read. I like the assesments of the minor league guys. I didn't know Josh Fields was a strikeout guy. I don't like strikeout guys.

A lot of it was interesting. Granted it's one person's opinion but there is some validity to it.

It got me thinking more about the CLee trade. I am well aware the Sox traded Carlos and freed up payroll to sign El Duque etc. And that's fine.

What I wonder is if the Sox couldn't have gotten more for CLee then a questionable hitter and a middle reliever. It's something we'll never know as we're not KW but I would think a power hitting left fielder who can hit close to .300 and is young could get a couple of top prospects (assuming of course that KW didn't want to take on any salary) or maybe a healthy #3 starter.


Bob

DrCrawdad
04-13-2005, 10:48 AM
Got this off the baseballprimer website. It was written by Anthony Giacalone (I think he posts here but he used to be at alt.whitesox ng.) He brings up some good points about the team and organizaiton.


http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/main/article/chicago_white_sox_preview05/


Bob

Anthony used to post here, but has not been heard from in awhile.

daveeym
04-13-2005, 11:27 AM
Wow everyone focuses on lee and maggs, but look at the crap we were fielding last year particularly that staff, surprised we took second.

Rocky Soprano
04-13-2005, 11:34 AM
What I wonder is if the Sox couldn't have gotten more for CLee then a questionable hitter and a middle reliever. It's something we'll never know as we're not KW but I would think a power hitting left fielder who can hit close to .300 and is young could get a couple of top prospects (assuming of course that KW didn't want to take on any salary) or maybe a healthy #3 starter.

Bob

You also have to keep in mind that with the money they saved on this trade, they went out and signed Hernandez, A.J., and Iguchi.

I say we did REALLY well on that trade.

5 new players and we only lost 1.

Flight #24
04-13-2005, 12:15 PM
A lot of it was interesting. Granted it's one person's opinion but there is some validity to it.

It got me thinking more about the CLee trade. I am well aware the Sox traded Carlos and freed up payroll to sign El Duque etc. And that's fine.

What I wonder is if the Sox couldn't have gotten more for CLee then a questionable hitter and a middle reliever. It's something we'll never know as we're not KW but I would think a power hitting left fielder who can hit close to .300 and is young could get a couple of top prospects (assuming of course that KW didn't want to take on any salary) or maybe a healthy #3 starter.


Bob

You can't forget the fact that we dumped about $6-8mil in that trade. That's why you get back less talent in return. If you take back salary, you can get the top prospects. otherwise, you get lesser guys.

As far as the article, I'm sorry, but it's filled with tripe. Some paraphrased examples:

- He quotes Kenny as "I'm not interested in just the raw numbers", but then apprently forgets the word "just" in there and repeatedly makes comments that assume KW isn't interested at all in the raw numbers

- Cory Lidle = Orlando Hernandez? Despite his ERA+ being significantly higher and his performance being better in nearly every single year? Lidle's less injry-prone, but no way he's an equivalent pitcher when healthy

- Belittles Anderson, then says they traded Reed because of Anderson.....what happened to that Garcia guy we got back?

- Josh Fields will flop because Joe Crede flopped and he had better stats at the same age. Nope - Fields wil flop because he played football and so did Borchard, who flopped. Nice analysis.

- One of my favorites: "Trading Lee for Podsednik and Vizcaino saved the White Sox about three to four million dollars, but may cost them the division.". Hello? You think adding El Duque with that might help?

- They didn't sign JD Drew because of Scott Boras....you think maybe his $10mil price tag had something to do with it maybe?

It's fairly obvious that this guy started out with a point: to figure out how to slam Kenny. He then picks apart individual moves without noting the countermove that needs to be considered along with it (ala Lee for Pods/Vizcaino without factoring in El Duque). He also make ludicrous comparisons without any real basis in fact.

Giacalone = :dtroll: , only with a podium.</SPAN>

Ol' No. 2
04-13-2005, 12:54 PM
I can't wait until the season starts and we won't have to put up with these ridiculous prognostications.

gosox41
04-13-2005, 01:16 PM
Anthony used to post here, but has not been heard from in awhile.

Too bad. He has good insights and is able to back it up with facts.


Bob

gosox41
04-13-2005, 01:22 PM
You can't forget the fact that we dumped about $6-8mil in that trade. That's why you get back less talent in return. If you take back salary, you can get the top prospects. otherwise, you get lesser guys.

.</SPAN>


Do you think though that a potential All Star like Lee could have been traded for more? I understand and agree with the act of moving Lee to free up salary to sign pitching.

But forgetting what the Sox did for the second with the extra money, I would think Carlos Lee would have more value on the trade market. I'd think he'd be worth a couple of top prospects.

KW didn't completely flop on this trade (like the Foulke one) but I'd like to think tht a 28 year old with 1 year plus an option that is a potential All Star capable of hitting 30 HR's and .290-.300 would have more value. That way the Sox could dump salary and pick up fair value for Lee. A team like Atlanta or even the Cubs were 2 teams that come to mind thaht needed a corner OFer this winter.


Though, I'll give KW some credit and say he did try to move Lee to other teams though no one knows for sure.


Bob

Flight #24
04-13-2005, 01:28 PM
Do you think though that a potential All Star like Lee could have been traded for more? I understand and agree with the act of moving Lee to free up salary to sign pitching.

But forgetting what the Sox did for the second with the extra money, I would think Carlos Lee would have more value on the trade market. I'd think he'd be worth a couple of top prospects.

KW didn't completely flop on this trade (like the Foulke one) but I'd like to think tht a 28 year old with 1 year plus an option that is a potential All Star capable of hitting 30 HR's and .290-.300 would have more value. That way the Sox could dump salary and pick up fair value for Lee. A team like Atlanta or even the Cubs were 2 teams that come to mind thaht needed a corner OFer this winter.


Though, I'll give KW some credit and say he did try to move Lee to other teams though no one knows for sure.


Bob

How many teams could take on the salary? Braves were in the process of cutting. Cubs were held up until they could deal Sosa. I don't believe there were many teams that were in position to simply take on that salary that also had a need at corner OF. The only one that comes to mind is LA (Dodgers, not Angels), and I'm not sure who we'd want back from them outside of their pitching prospects.

Then there's the fact that they'd also have to have 1)ML-ready guys and 2)guys that fit our needs - SP, MI, OF. Even high-payroll teams aren't going to take on salary AND give up good prospects, so you're left with getting more back in terms of talent for Carlos, but not being able to go sign El Duque, etc.

IMO that's the decision that KW likely made: get less for Carlos, but have $$$ flexibility and get guys back who can actually contribute this year.

daveeym
04-13-2005, 01:31 PM
Do you think though that a potential All Star like Lee could have been traded for more? I understand and agree with the act of moving Lee to free up salary to sign pitching.

But forgetting what the Sox did for the second with the extra money, I would think Carlos Lee would have more value on the trade market. I'd think he'd be worth a couple of top prospects.

KW didn't completely flop on this trade (like the Foulke one) but I'd like to think tht a 28 year old with 1 year plus an option that is a potential All Star capable of hitting 30 HR's and .290-.300 would have more value. That way the Sox could dump salary and pick up fair value for Lee. A team like Atlanta or even the Cubs were 2 teams that come to mind thaht needed a corner OFer this winter.


Though, I'll give KW some credit and say he did try to move Lee to other teams though no one knows for sure.


Bob The problem with the entire lee for fair value is determining what's fair value and what helps the team. Lee could have been traded for "fair" value and it wouldn't have helped the team this year. Maybe more highly touted prospects could have been gotten or a bigger name whch = similar money but to fill holes and have the flexibility to fill more wholes is what this trade was about. I don't know how anyone could want more from this trade directly because if we got MORE for lee we'd still have 3 holes to fill.

gosox41
04-13-2005, 01:40 PM
The problem with the entire lee for fair value is determining what's fair value and what helps the team. Lee could have been traded for "fair" value and it wouldn't have helped the team this year. Maybe more highly touted prospects could have been gotten or a bigger name whch = similar money but to fill holes and have the flexibility to fill more wholes is what this trade was about. I don't know how anyone could want more from this trade directly because if we got MORE for lee we'd still have 3 holes to fill.

Possibly. But to me Pods is a disappointment if he doesn't get on base at the minimum of a .350 pace. And I think he'll be slightly below the league average of .335.


Vizcaino is a good middle reliever and might be more of a factor on this team then Scotty P. But he is hardly a great pitcher. Solid yes. And he does fit a need.

I guess I'm just so starved for the Sox farm system to produce a player that is going to positively contribute to the Sox that in this particular instance I would have been fine with getting some good prospects who are relatively close to the bigs just to build depth.

But overall, I'm not trying to complain. Because after 4 years at least KW finally figured out the value of having 5 ML starting pitchers on the same rotation.



Bob

Ol' No. 2
04-13-2005, 01:45 PM
But overall, I'm not trying to complain. Because after 4 years at least KW finally figured out the value of having 5 ML starting pitchers on the same rotation.



BobNot to mention a bullpen without Rick White and Mike Jackson. Better late than never.

voodoochile
04-13-2005, 01:50 PM
You also have to keep in mind that with the money they saved on this trade, they went out and signed Hernandez, A.J., and Iguchi.

I say we did REALLY well on that trade.

5 new players and we only lost 1.

Exactly, maybe if you get better players, you don't free up enough money.

Flight #24
04-13-2005, 01:52 PM
But overall, I'm not trying to complain. Because after 4 years at least KW finally figured out the value of having 5 ML starting pitchers on the same rotation.

Bob

In fairness, he didn't exactly have salary flexibility to go get someone - he had to get guys making basically 0 and in general, you get what you pay for. Even this year - he had to clear Lee's salary to go get Duque.

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 02:33 PM
The Pods/Lee trade. Value wise Lee at an all-time high (310TB .. tops on the Sox, 8th best in AL) & Pods was at a career low(233 TB). As for Vizcaino he was considered at best in the top 40 NL relief pitchers. Further boosting Lee's value was his 31HR & errorless play in LF.

If this is not the worst trade Kenny's made it certainly ranks up there. A good GM finds a way to trade for a player like Pods & keep Lee. In doing so you don't need Dye. If we look at the money involved Lee's ($8M) goes to Dye ($5M), Viz ($1.3M), Pods (700K), & Davis ($1M). All new dollars spent.

In my opinion this is not a Lee vs Pods trade but rather a Lee vs Dye trade.
The Dye signing is what opened the door for Williams to trade Lee. As Dye goes so does this trade. Lee should finish in top 20 in NL. If Dye & Pods each finish in top 30 & Viz does the same on the pitching side you can argue in favor of the White Sox for this trade. Even if the White Sox come out ahead it won't change the fact they over paid.

Pods intangibles: bunting, knowing how to run & steal bases, beating out DP's, & reaching on fielder's choice plays.
Lee's intangibles: greatly improved defensive (errorless), & good combination of speed & power (29 SB/2yr, 62HR/2yr), & 621TB/2yr).

For a team seeking to transition from a purely power team to a speed & power team Lee seem's a perfect fit. Could the White Sox have used Crede to get Pods? Crede ($400K, 40HR/2yr, 437TB/2yr). In line with Pods production. Crede & a solid prospect should have been good enough to secure Pods. The Brewers are money conscious as well.

This decision of course means the White Sox have to spend a little more on 3B. But this year featured good talents for sale at that position (Koskie). It's not like they couldn't find a solid defensive replacement for Crede. Taking this route probably negates the signing of Iguchi but I'd rather have a players like Koskie & Lee than Iguchi & Crede.

I guess we have to throw Crede in there as well in evaluating this trade because not trading Lee probably means using Crede & a prospect to get Pods. If Crede outperforms Koskie that adds more strength to Williams decision to trade Lee. I don't feel Kenny is stupid by any means so it might just be he's got a lot of faith in Crede still.

daveeym
04-13-2005, 02:54 PM
The Pods/Lee trade. Value wise Lee at an all-time high (310TB .. tops on the Sox, 8th best in AL) & Pods was at a career low(233 TB). As for Vizcaino he was considered at best in the top 40 NL relief pitchers. Further boosting Lee's value was his 31HR & errorless play in LF.

If this is not the worst trade Kenny's made it certainly ranks up there. A good GM finds a way to trade for a player like Pods & keep Lee. In doing so you don't need Dye. If we look at the money involved Lee's ($8M) goes to Dye ($5M), Viz ($1.3M), Pods (700K), & Davis ($1M). All new dollars spent.

In my opinion this is not a Lee vs Pods trade but rather a Lee vs Dye trade.
The Dye signing is what opened the door for Williams to trade Lee. As Dye goes so does this trade. Lee should finish in top 20 in NL. If Dye & Pods each finish in top 30 & Viz does the same on the pitching side you can argue in favor of the White Sox for this trade. Even if the White Sox come out ahead it won't change the fact they over paid.

Pods intangibles: bunting, knowing how to run & steal bases, beating out DP's, & reaching on fielder's choice plays.
Lee's intangibles: greatly improved defensive (errorless), & good combination of speed & power (29 SB/2yr, 62HR/2yr), & 621TB/2yr).

For a team seeking to transition from a purely power team to a speed & power team Lee seem's a perfect fit. Could the White Sox have used Crede to get Pods? Crede ($400K, 40HR/2yr, 437TB/2yr). In line with Pods production. Crede & a solid prospect should have been good enough to secure Pods. The Brewers are money conscious as well.

This decision of course means the White Sox have to spend a little more on 3B. But this year featured good talents for sale at that position (Koskie). It's not like they couldn't find a solid defensive replacement for Crede. Taking this route probably negates the signing of Iguchi but I'd rather have a players like Koskie & Lee than Iguchi & Crede.

I guess we have to throw Crede in there as well in evaluating this trade because not trading Lee probably means using Crede & a prospect to get Pods. If Crede outperforms Koskie that adds more strength to Williams decision to trade Lee. I don't feel Kenny is stupid by any means so it might just be he's got a lot of faith in Crede still.Woah, ok wild fantasy bball scenario guy, let's keep this all within reality.

Flight #24
04-13-2005, 03:02 PM
If this is not the worst trade Kenny's made it certainly ranks up there. A good GM finds a way to trade for a player like Pods & keep Lee.In doing so you don't need Dye. If we look at the money involved Lee's ($8M) goes to Dye ($5M), Viz ($1.3M), Pods (700K), & Davis ($1M). All new dollars spent.



Dye was signed before the trade to replace Maggs. Not to offset a trade of CLee.

In any case, I love your assertion that a "good GM finds a way to trade for a player like Pods". Care to identify other guys like that who were available and who we might have traded to get them? These guys don't fall off of trees.

Milwaukee wanted a corner OF, not Crede. They're not trading a guy who hit .300+ with a good OBP 2 years ago for a guy who's never hit for a full season at the ML level.

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 03:11 PM
Woah, ok wild fantasy bball scenario guy, let's keep this all within reality.

I don't understand what you mean. Where was the fantasy there? In what it would have taken to get Pods? Please explain.

As for the rest of the assessment I disagree with a lot of the important things . If the White Sox don't trade for Garcia then they don't sign him as FA. Whether he wanted to play for Ozzie or not when you look at what Clement & Lowe signed for there's no question in my mind Garcia is gone. The Garcia trade tipped heavily in the White Sox favor when Garcia signed a 3 yr deal before the winter prices emerged. The author over-rates Olivo as well.

As for Contreras it was a gamble but with a commander like AJ it's one that seems most likely to pay off.

SoxxoS
04-13-2005, 03:14 PM
They wanted to dump Lee for salary...we just happened to get a leadoff hitter and a solid middle relief guy in the process.

I am sure KW explored a lot of avenues before deciding trading with the Brewers...

soxrme
04-13-2005, 03:33 PM
A lot of it was interesting. Granted it's one person's opinion but there is some validity to it.

It got me thinking more about the CLee trade. I am well aware the Sox traded Carlos and freed up payroll to sign El Duque etc. And that's fine.

What I wonder is if the Sox couldn't have gotten more for CLee then a questionable hitter and a middle reliever. It's something we'll never know as we're not KW but I would think a power hitting left fielder who can hit close to .300 and is young could get a couple of top prospects (assuming of course that KW didn't want to take on any salary) or maybe a healthy #3 starter.


Bob
Amen:dtroll:

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 03:34 PM
Dye was signed before the trade to replace Maggs. Not to offset a trade of CLee.

In any case, I love your assertion that a "good GM finds a way to trade for a player like Pods". Care to identify other guys like that who were available and who we might have traded to get them? These guys don't fall off of trees.

Milwaukee wanted a corner OF, not Crede. They're not trading a guy who hit .300+ with a good OBP 2 years ago for a guy who's never hit for a full season at the ML level.

I disagree. If the White Sox do not sign Dye (or JD Drew) they do not trade Lee. Maggs production was considered lost. It was a question of replacing Lee's & gaining speed.

List of players like Pods the White Sox could have traded/over paid for:
AL: Crawford, Figgins, Roberts, DaVanon, Raines Jr.
NL: Abreu, Beltran (buy him), Rollins, Pierre, Freel, Furcal, Chavez, Sanders, Reyes, Robinson
Of course you're assuming that the Brewers would accept nothing less than Lee for Pods. That doesn't seem rational since his value had depreciated greatly from 2003.

Milwaukee wanted HR's. They have Branyan at 3B. Crede is a major upgrade defensively over Branyan at 3B. Branyan can play LF better than he can play 3B. Good GM's shore up their IF's first then they worry about defense in the OF. I'm sure the Brewers have a good GM.

Flight #24
04-13-2005, 03:41 PM
List of players like Pods the White Sox could have traded/over paid for:
AL: Crawford, Figgins, Roberts, DaVanon, Raines Jr.
NL: Abreu, Beltran (buy him), Rollins, Pierre, Freel, Furcal, Chavez, Sanders, Reyes, Robinson
Of course your assuming that the Brewers would accept nothing less than Lee for Pods. That doesn't seem rational since his value had depreciated greatly from 2003.

You think we could have traded less for guys like Crawford, Figgins, Roberts, Abreu, Pierre, Rollins, Furcal, etc?:kukoo:

Forget about whether or not teams would deal those guys for less than Lee (they wouldn't), for most of them, the Sox would have had to take on salary (significant salary in some cases).

Why not just go all the way? If KW was a good GM, he'd "find a way" to trade Crede, Borchard, Davis, & Garland for ARod, Manny, Piazza, & Randy Johnson.

seventytwo
04-13-2005, 03:44 PM
I disagree. If the White Sox do not sign Dye (or JD Drew) they do not trade Lee. Maggs production was considered lost. It was a question of replacing Lee's & gaining speed.

List of players like Pods the White Sox could have traded/over paid for:
AL: Crawford, Figgins, Roberts, DaVanon, Raines Jr.
NL: Abreu, Beltran (buy him), Rollins, Pierre, Freel, Furcal, Chavez, Sanders, Reyes, Robinson
Of course you're assuming that the Brewers would accept nothing less than Lee for Pods. That doesn't seem rational since his value had depreciated greatly from 2003.

Milwaukee wanted HR's. They have Branyan at 3B. Crede is a major upgrade defensively over Branyan at 3B. Branyan can play LF better than he can play 3B. Good GM's shore up their IF's first then they worry about defense in the OF. I'm sure the Brewers have a good GM.

How are Tim Raines Jr. and Kerry Robinson similar to Pods. I mean, other than the fact that none of them have ever been in my kitchen?

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 03:47 PM
You think we could have traded less for guys like Crawford, Figgins, Roberts, Abreu, Pierre, Rollins, Furcal, etc?:kukoo:

Forget about whether or not teams would deal those guys for less than Lee (they wouldn't), for most of them, the Sox would have had to take on salary (significant salary in some cases).

Why not just go all the way? If KW was a good GM, he'd "find a way" to trade Crede, Borchard, Davis, & Garland for ARod, Manny, Piazza, & Randy Johnson.

It's obviously you have no idea what Lee's trade value was worth. Perhaps you should have paid better attention to the trade rumors surfacing around Lee since the all-star break. Most rumors had Lee pegged to be traded for a #2/#3 starter. I don't have to tell you how far removed Pods, VIz, & Owens are from the value of a good #2/#3 starter.

There was even talk of Lee being traded to Oak for one of the big 3 at one time.

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 03:50 PM
How are Tim Raines Jr. and Kerry Robinson similar to Pods. I mean, other than the fact that none of them have ever been in my kitchen?

SB potential. Of course if you're just trading for potential it's going to cost much less. Lee & Crede aren't even in consideration then.

daveeym
04-13-2005, 03:53 PM
It's obviously you have no idea what Lee's trade value was worth. Perhaps you should have paid better attention to the trade rumors surfacing around Lee since the all-star break. Most rumors had Lee pegged to be traded for a #2/#3 starter. I don't have to tell you how far removed Pods, VIz, & Owens are from the value of a good #2/#3 starter.

There was even talk of Lee being traded to Oak for one of the big 3 at one time.Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckoo to all your posts today in this thread. (Wish i had a jack black, not to beconfused with black jack, picture for this)

Flight #24
04-13-2005, 03:56 PM
It's obviously you have no idea what Lee's trade value was worth. Perhaps you should have paid better attention to the trade rumors surfacing around Lee since the all-star break. Most rumors had Lee pegged to be traded for a #2/#3 starter. I don't have to tell you how far removed Pods, VIz, & Owens are from the value of a good #2/#3 starter.

There was even talk of Lee being traded to Oak for one of the big 3 at one time.

Exactly what rumors are you referring to? Have you stolen ChiSoxTony's cousin's phone or something? One more time: teams looking to deal good players are usually doing so because they got too expensive, and they're rarely willing to take back a big salary in return. The only way KW could have made the type of trade you're suggesting is if he took back salary, which would have prevented any other moves like AJ, Iguchi, Hernandez.

And it's been widely reported that Billy Beane was only trading his starters if he got back a high-ceiling ML-ready young pitcher in return. And there's no way he was taking on 2 years of 8+mil on CLee. His whole philosophy is NOT to do that. So the only talk of Lee being traded to Oakland was on message boards. You know - the kind where you see guys talk about trades like Chumps to Philly for Abreu.

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 03:58 PM
Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckoo to all your posts today in this thread. (Wish i had a jack black, not to beconfused with black jack, picture for this)

There is no need to become insulting just because you disagree. If you want to believe that Lee's value was worth Pods, Vizc & Owens go ahead. I'll tend to go with what most analysts & other GM's quotes on the subject.

It's pointless for me to debate with someone resorting to insults. Likewise it's stupid for me to resort to your level so it would be best if you just agree to disagree like I have.

jordan23ventura
04-13-2005, 04:02 PM
Dye was signed before the trade to replace Maggs. Not to offset a trade of CLee.

In any case, I love your assertion that a "good GM finds a way to trade for a player like Pods". Care to identify other guys like that who were available and who we might have traded to get them? These guys don't fall off of trees.

Milwaukee wanted a corner OF, not Crede. They're not trading a guy who hit .300+ with a good OBP 2 years ago for a guy who's never hit for a full season at the ML level.

Exactly. Its not as if the Brewers were going to give us Pods for nothing because they felt sorry for us and knew we needed a leadoff hitter. I'm sure they didn't want to trade Pods, and wouldn't have traded Pods if they didn't get a player of CLee's caliber. They needed a leadoff hitter, too.

maurice
04-13-2005, 04:02 PM
Trading a player at their peak value for a player who is undervalued (+ a pitcher + a minor leaguer + salary space) is a good thing, especially if Pods continues to hit .280 and steals 70 bases again. Sell high, buy low.

The entire point of the Lee trade was to clear plenty of salary space to add other players. If KW didn't need the money for other deals, he would have just kept Lee.

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 04:03 PM
Exactly what rumors are you referring to?

prosportsdaily.com - they post all the rumor related news as the season unfolds. I doubt if any of the Lee stuff is still there. It's an "in the news" site. Of course you can just try cbssportsline.com, SI, ESPN, Yahoo, Sporting News & read what their analysts have to say about the trade.

It all comes down to the same thing: The White Sox over paid greatly.

As for the salary purge again that argument doesn't hold water:
Lee, Rowand, Pods vs Pods, Rowand, Dye = net savings $3M
Vizcaino, Davis = net savings drops to 700K.

daveeym
04-13-2005, 04:04 PM
There is no need to become insulting just because you disagree. If you want to believe that Lee's value was worth Pods, Vizc & Owens go ahead. I'll tend to go with what most analysts & other GM's quotes on the subject.

It's pointless for me to debate with someone resorting to insults. Likewise it's stupid for me to resort to your level so it would be best if you just agree to disagree like I have. It's a fact your argument in this thread is based in irrationality. You're playing fantasy rules here by trying to match up a player for player trade as if all teams were on an equal footing and would be dealing the same way. By your argument kw would be a genius if he traded lee for arod straight up, but that would acutally be a horrible trade because it would kill the sox. You wouldn't have gotten, dye, aj, iguchi, pods, viscaino, el duque or hermanson. The sox would still find themselves with 5 holes, a weak bullpen and a rotating **** storm in the 4 and 5 spots in the rotation, but hey kw is a genius for getting better than fair value for lee.

maurice
04-13-2005, 04:04 PM
If you want to believe that Lee's value was worth Pods, Vizc & Owens go ahead.

:?:

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 04:18 PM
You wouldn't have gotten, dye, aj, iguchi, pods, viscaino, el duque or hermanson. The sox would still find themselves with 5 holes, a weak bullpen and a rotating **** storm in the 4 and 5 spots in the rotation, but hey kw is a genius for getting better than fair value for lee.

Again with the insults. Can't deal with facts I guess. Let me simplify this for you again:
OF: Pods, Rowand, Dye vs Lee, Rowand, Pods = net savings $3M
Vizcaino + Davis = net savings drops to 700K (Pods salary)

Rationally speaking the only person included that does not have relevance to the trade is Davis. But Davis still represents new dollars spent & the one that best fits under Lee's $ value.

The bottomline then is $ wise trading Lee had no bearing on signing AJ, El Duque, Iguchi, or Hermanson. Now trading Crede & having to buy a 3B probably impacts the Iguchi signing. Assuming of course that Williams couldn't get an ok to go to $78M. I think he could have based on White Sox revenue of ($130M+) in 2004.

If you want to make the argument that Vizcaino is better than Walker or any one else the White Sox had to fill the pen then try & make it. But the rest of your argument represents a gross exageration of the facts & really looks silly.

Based on the players involved the question to ask on the trade is simple:
Will an OF of Pods, Rowand, Dye & the addition of Vizcaino in the pen improve the White Sox winning % over that of Lee, Rowand, Pods & say Walker in the pen?

I say no & have told you why. If you say yes let's hear why.

daveeym
04-13-2005, 04:22 PM
Again with the insults. Can't deal with facts I guess. Let me simplify this for you again:
OF: Pods, Rowand, Dye vs Lee, Rowand, Pods = net savings $3M
Vizcaino + Davis = net savings drops to 700K (Pods salary)

Rationally speaking the only person included that does not have relevance to the trade is Davis. But Davis still represents new dollars spent & the one that best fits under under Lee's $ value.

The bottomline then is $ wise trading Lee had no bearing on signing AJ, El Duque, Iguchi, or Hermanson. Now trading Crede & having to buy a 3B probably impacts the Iguchi signing. Assuming of course that Williams couldn't get an ok to go to $78M. I think he could have based on White Sox revenue of ($130M+) in 2004.

If you want to make the argument that Vizcaino is better than Walker or any one else the White Sox had to fill the pen then try & make it. But the rest of your argument represents a gross exageration of the facts & really looks silly.

Based on the players involved the question to ask on the trade is simple:
Will an OF of Pods, Rowand, Dye & the addition of Vizcaino in the pen improve the White Sox winning % over that of Lee, Rowand, Pods & say Walker in the pen?

I say no & have told you why. If you say yes let's hear why. Seriously is he a :dtroll:

voodoochile
04-13-2005, 04:28 PM
prosportsdaily.com - they post all the rumor related news as the season unfolds. I doubt if any of the Lee stuff is still there. It's an "in the news" site. Of course you can just try cbssportsline.com, SI, ESPN, Yahoo, Sporting News & read what their analysts have to say about the trade.

It all comes down to the same thing: The White Sox over paid greatly.

As for the salary purge again that argument doesn't hold water:
Lee, Rowand, Pods vs Pods, Rowand, Dye = net savings $3M
Vizcaino, Davis = net savings drops to 700K.

Okay, it wouldn't have been Lee Rowand Pods, it would have been Lee Rowand Borchard (shudders).

Lee ($9M) makes about $5M more than Dye ($4M) this season doesn't he? Your savings figure is WAY off. That $5M is worth Iguchi and AJ (instead of Harris and Davis).

So is Lee worth Pods, Viscaino, Owens (whoever he is) Dye, AJ and Iguchi?

I think most people would say yes...

Flight #24
04-13-2005, 04:32 PM
Have you even been following this team the past few years?

- KW could have raised payroll to $78mil if he wanted to.....
- Brewers were willing to deal Podsednik for little to nothing......
- Had they not traded for Pods they wouldn't have signed Dye, neglecting the fact that IIRC KW does not have access to a time machine......
- Carlos Lee could have been traded for Hudson/Mulder or a solid #2 pitcher. Forget that even a mediocre #3 like Victor Zambrano cost a guy like Scott Kazmir, arguably the top pitching prospect in baseball at the time. And that's without the Mets taking on any salary.

(insert image of banging head against wall)

I would love to conduct a rational discussion, but you continue to make statements with no basis in fact or even reality., So unfortunately, I cannot. Good luck to you sir, in your chosen endeavours.

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 04:33 PM
Seriously is he a :dtroll:

No I am not a troll. I am a rational & intelligent fan of the Chicago White Sox. I want nothing less than World Series championship for my team. If it comes at the expense of the Chicago Cubs in the World Series all the better.

But I'm not going to look at everything my team does with blinders on or eyes filled with White Sox Kool-Aid.

That being said I probably have greater faith & hope in Dye than most other fans. Numbers wise Pods, Rowand, Dye looks much worse than Lee, Rowand, Pods but I have hope in Dye to out perform the numbers this year.
He's now playing in one of ML's best HR hitting parks. It's spacious dimensions in LC & RC make it ideal for hitting DB's as well. I think that's going to boost Dye's confidence & production. I likewise have hope in Pods.
If Uribe can experience a career year at the Cell why not Pods? In the end it could turn out for the best for the White Sox.

But it still won't change the fact Williams over paid at the time the trade went down.

daveeym
04-13-2005, 04:36 PM
No I am not a troll. I am a rational & intelligent fan of the Chicago White Sox. I want nothing less than World Series championship for my team. If it comes at the expense of the Chicago Cubs in the World Series all the better.

But I'm not going to look at everything my team does with blinders on or eyes filled with White Sox Kool-Aid.

That being said I probably have greater faith & hope in Dye than most other fans. Numbers wise Pods, Rowand, Dye looks much worse than Lee, Rowand, Pods but I have hope in Dye to out perform the numbers this year.
He's now playing in one of ML's best HR hitting parks. It's spacious dimensions in LC & RC make it ideal for hitting DB's as well. I think that's going to boost Dye's confidence & production. I likewise have hope in Pods.
If Uribe can experience a career year at the Cell why not Pods? In the end it could turn out for the best for the White Sox.

But it still won't change the fact Williams over paid at the time the trade went down. Oh my bad that's right they had those new rule changes that made it so only a teams outfielders play a 3 on 3 home run derby now.

doublem23
04-13-2005, 04:40 PM
rumor n. 1) A piece of unverified information of uncertain origin usually spread by word of mouth. 2) Unverified information received from another; hearsay.

Some people around here need to really absorb the meaning of this word before they start equating the stuff they read on the 'net as god's word engraved in stone. :rolleyes:

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 04:44 PM
Okay, it wouldn't have been Lee Rowand Pods, it would have been Lee Rowand Borchard (shudders).

Lee ($9M) makes about $5M more than Dye ($4M) this season doesn't he? Your savings figure is WAY off. That $5M is worth Iguchi and AJ (instead of Harris and Davis).

So is Lee worth Pods, Viscaino, Owens (whoever he is) Dye, AJ and Iguchi?

I think most people would say yes...

Lee had a little more than $16M/2yr left on his deal & Dye was signed for a little more than $10M/2yr. That's a savings of about $6M.

Vizcaino was included in the trade. I believe his expected cost is a minimum of $3M/2yr. Assuming of course he's kept after 2005. So now the savings have dropped to $3M/2yr. If Pods is not signed then he's arbitration eligible in 2006. If he is signed we can expect his minimal cost will be $3M/2yr. No more savings.

maurice
04-13-2005, 04:49 PM
I'm shocked that such an obviously "rational & intelligent fan of the Chicago White Sox" would claim that somebody named "Owens" has anything to do with the CLee deal or that the fantasy-league OF of "Lee, Rowand, Pods" is a relevant point of comparison.

Dye was going to be the RF whether Lee was traded or not. He was signed to replace Maggs and, in fact, took Maggs' spot in the OF. The money to pay Dye's salary was already in the 2005 budget. (Since we don't know the size of the 2006 budget or the 2006 roster yet, it's impossible to discuss this aspect of the trade.) Therefore, the actual comparison for cost-saving purposes is Lee-Rowand-Dye v. Pod-Rowand-Dye (+ Vizcaino). If you insist on defying the laws of space and time and continue to consider Dye part of the Lee deal, then the relevant comparison is Lee-Rowand-Borchard/Perez v. Pod-Rowand-Dye.

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 04:59 PM
I'm shocked that such an obviously "rational & intelligent fan of the Chicago White Sox" would claim that somebody named "Owens" has anything to do with the CLee deal or that the fantasy-league OF of "Lee, Rowand, Pods" is a relevant point of comparison.

Referring to the article for which this thread pertains, the author mentioned Owens as the PTBNL. I do not know if that is true but I do know that no analyst covering the trade felt the PTBNL had very much worth.

Now to the argument as to whether the White Sox could have gotten Pods
without having to sacrifice Lee you clearly disagree. Instead of referrring to the Brewer's greatest needs at the time or who plays for the Brewers today you've decided to consider that possibility as pure fantasy. I do not.
I mentioned Crede because of 1) Branyan is playing for them now, 2) Crede gives them the HR potential they were seeking, 3) Crede's cheaper than Pods. I didn't say it would cost Crede alone only that he would be used as the base.

Flight #24
04-13-2005, 05:00 PM
Lee had a little more than $16M/2yr left on his deal & Dye was signed for a little more than $10M/2yr. That's a savings of about $6M.

Vizcaino was included in the trade. I believe his expected cost is a minimum of $3M/2yr. Assuming of course he's kept after 2005. So now the savings have dropped to $3M/2yr. If Pods is not signed then he's arbitration eligible in 2006. If he is signed we can expect his minimal cost will be $3M/2yr. No more savings.

I can't believe I'm doing this.....

- CLee has $16.5mil left. $8mil in 05 & $8.5 in '06
- Dye costs $4mil in 05 & $5mil in '06
- Podsednik is signed to a deal that costs $550k in 05 & $1.9M in 06
- Vizcaino signed for $1.3MM

So even in your math, '05 is Lee (8) v. Dye(4)+Pods(.5)+Vizcaino(1.3) = 5.8. The 2.2 in savings equals AJP.

Would you rather have Lee+Borchard (instead of Dye)+Davis(instead of AJ)+Adkins(instead of Vizcaino) or Pods+Dye+AJP+Vizcaino?

Iwritecode
04-13-2005, 05:02 PM
It all comes down to the same thing: The White Sox over paid greatly.


Anything whether it be a baseball player or a baseball card is only worth as much as what somebody is willing to pay for it.

If KW could've gotten a "better" deal and filled up more holes by trading Carlos to a different team, he would have done it...

CWSGuy406
04-13-2005, 05:04 PM
I'm just gonna go back to one of Bob's first few posts and agree with it, in stating that Lee should have gotten more than Pods/Vizcaino.

The deal on the surface is bad -- value for value, Lee >>> Pods/Viz. But, the offseason as a whole, (IMHO) was pretty good. I don't like how the author states how we 'lucked' into AJ, and he does take his jabs at KW which is not needed for an analysis, but overall, I think it's pretty fair. The offense is worse than last year, the pitching is much better. To what degree will determine whether or not we're playoff bound.

Iwritecode
04-13-2005, 05:05 PM
I didn't say it would cost Crede alone only that he would be used as the base.

IIRC, KW tried desperatly to give Crede to the Mariners instead of Reed. Obviously his value isn't as high as you think it is...

Flight #24
04-13-2005, 05:05 PM
I mentioned Crede because of 1) Branyan is playing for them now, 2) Crede gives them the HR potential they were seeking, 3) Crede's cheaper than Pods. I didn't say it would cost Crede alone only that he would be used as the base.

Joe Crede makes 340k in 2005. Scott Podsednik makes 550k. If the Brewers suggested that type of salary dump on us, we'd have to make them include Prince Fielder.

Why again do you think that they'd trade a guy 1 year removed from being an all-star caliber leadoff player for a guy who's struggled in every full year he's been in the bigs?:?: Because they have Russ Branyan? Do you know that he's put up better OPS #s than Crede?

mjmcend
04-13-2005, 05:11 PM
IIRC, KW tried desperatly to give Crede to the Mariners instead of Reed. Obviously his value isn't as high as you think it is...


No it was the other way around, the Mariners wanted Olivo and Crede for Garcia, and KW got them to take Reed instead of Crede.

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 05:18 PM
I'm shocked that such an obviously "rational & intelligent fan of the Chicago White Sox" would claim that somebody named "Owens" has anything to do with the CLee deal or that the fantasy-league OF of "Lee, Rowand, Pods" is a relevant point of comparison.

Dye was going to be the RF whether Lee was traded or not. He was signed to replace Maggs and, in fact, took Maggs' spot in the OF. The money to pay Dye's salary was already in the 2005 budget. (Since we don't know the size of the 2006 budget or the 2006 roster yet, it's impossible to discuss this aspect of the trade.) Therefore, the actual comparison for cost-saving purposes is Lee-Rowand-Dye v. Pod-Rowand-Dye (+ Vizcaino). If you insist on defying the laws of space and time and continue to consider Dye part of the Lee deal, then the relevant comparison is Lee-Rowand-Borchard/Perez v. Pod-Rowand-Dye.

We can only speculate on the size of the budget based on team revenue as published by Forbes on a yearly basis. The latest figures put the White Sox in a range of $130M. Is it reasonable to assume that payroll should be between 60-70% of revenue? I think so. That's what the NFL uses as a basis of it's salary cap. That puts the budget at $78M.

This before & after argument is amusing but it doesn't change the reality of the trade. Either you believe the White Sox could have gotten Pods for less than Lee or you don't. You haven't written a basis for your argument as to why you believe it was Lee or no Pods. I have written a basis as to why Crede could have been used instead.

If I were GM of the White Sox this is what I would have done:
1-Built a trade around Crede for Pods.
2-Signed Koskie ($3.5M 2005, $12.5M/06-07)
3-Let Davis walk. There were better C's available through FA & trade scenarios.
4-Signed Hermanson. ($5M/2yr)
5-Signed El Duque. ($8M/2yr)
6-Signed AJ. ($2.25M)

Koskie is a proven 3B who is consistenty productive both in the field & at the plate. A price of $17M/3yr is not unreasonable.

Those moves put the White Sox at $76M. A million more than the current budget. Signing Iguchi on top of this puts it at $78M or about 60% of revenue. As GM I would have fought tooth & nail for that money. My biggest argument would be that if he works out he's going to attract more fans at the gate. The gate potential of Iguchi probably exceeds that of the other new signings.

So for $78M my team is:
Pods, Iguchi, Lee, Koney, Thomas/Everett, Rowand, AJ, Koskie, Uribe
Pen: Shingo, Marte, Hermanson, Politte, Cotts, Walker
Rot: Buehrle, Garcia, Hernandez, Contreras, Garland

Any one want to argue our current team is better than this?

CWSGuy406
04-13-2005, 05:23 PM
We can only speculate on the size of the budget based on team revenue as published by Forbes on a yearly basis. The latest figures put the White Sox in a range of $130M. Is it reasonable to assume that payroll should be between 60-70% of revenue? I think so. That's what the NFL uses as a basis of it's salary cap. That puts the budget at $78M.

This before & after argument is amusing but it doesn't change the reality of the trade. Either you believe the White Sox could have gotten Pods for less than Lee or you don't. You haven't written a basis for your argument as to why you believe it was Lee or no Pods. I have written a basis as to why Crede could have been used instead.

If I were GM of the White Sox this is what I would have done:
1-Built a trade around Crede for Pods.
2-Signed Koskie ($3.5M 2005, $12.5M/06-07)
3-Let Davis walk. There were better C's available through FA & trade scenarios.
4-Signed Hermanson. ($5M/2yr)
5-Signed El Duque. ($8M/2yr)
6-Signed AJ. ($2.25M)

Koskie is a proven 3B who is consistenty productive both in the field & at the plate. A price of $17M/3yr is not unreasonable.

Those moves put the White Sox at $76M. A million more than the current budget. Signing Iguchi on top of this puts it at $78M or about 60% of revenue. As GM I would have fought tooth & nail for that money. My biggest argument would be that if he works out he's going to attract more fans at the gate. The gate potential of Iguchi probably exceeds that of the other new signings.

So for $78M my team is:
Pods, Iguchi, Lee, Koney, Thomas/Everett, Rowand, AJ, Koskie, Uribe
Pen: Shingo, Marte, Hermanson, Politte, Cotts, Walker
Rot: Buehrle, Garcia, Hernandez, Contreras, Garland

Any one want to argue our current team is better than this?

That would be a solid team, except I think Koskie was set on returning to his native country in Canada, though I could be wrong.

And, I don't just think you can say, "I would have done this and this...." -- I'd bet there's a lot of things that goes on between the GM/owner that we don't know about... We can speculate, but really can't be certain.

daveeym
04-13-2005, 05:23 PM
We can only speculate on the size of the budget based on team revenue as published by Forbes on a yearly basis. The latest figures put the White Sox in a range of $130M. Is it reasonable to assume that payroll should be between 60-70% of revenue? I think so. That's what the NFL uses as a basis of it's salary cap. That puts the budget at $78M.

This before & after argument is amusing but it doesn't change the reality of the trade. Either you believe the White Sox could have gotten Pods for less than Lee or you don't. You haven't written a basis for your argument as to why you believe it was Lee or no Pods. I have written a basis as to why Crede could have been used instead.

If I were GM of the White Sox this is what I would have done:
1-Built a trade around Crede for Pods.
2-Signed Koskie ($3.5M 2005, $12.5M/06-07)
3-Let Davis walk. There were better C's available through FA & trade scenarios.
4-Signed Hermanson. ($5M/2yr)
5-Signed El Duque. ($8M/2yr)
6-Signed AJ. ($2.25M)

Koskie is a proven 3B who is consistenty productive both in the field & at the plate. A price of $17M/3yr is not unreasonable.

Those moves put the White Sox at $76M. A million more than the current budget. Signing Iguchi on top of this puts it at $78M or about 60% of revenue. As GM I would have fought tooth & nail for that money. My biggest argument would be that if he works out he's going to attract more fans at the gate. The gate potential of Iguchi probably exceeds that of the other new signings.

So for $78M my team is:
Pods, Iguchi, Lee, Koney, Thomas/Everett, Rowand, AJ, Koskie, Uribe
Pen: Shingo, Marte, Hermanson, Politte, Cotts, Walker
Rot: Buehrle, Garcia, Hernandez, Contreras, Garland

Any one want to argue our current team is better than this? Hey the fantasy boards are 5 boards down, go play around in there if you don't get it.

maurice
04-13-2005, 05:24 PM
Referring to the article for which this thread pertains, the author mentioned Owens as the PTBNL. I do not know if that is true . . . .

As a rational & intelligent fan of the Chicago White Sox, I know that it is not true.

Now to the argument as to whether the White Sox could have gotten Pods without having to sacrifice Lee you clearly disagree. Instead of referrring to the Brewer's greatest needs at the time or who plays for the Brewers today you've decided to consider that possibility as pure fantasy. I do not.

As a rational & intelligent fan of the Chicago White Sox, I do in fact consider things to be pure fantasy when (1) they never actually happened and (2) they have no basis in fact. The quotes from the teams indicated that the Brewers wanted CLee to fill their "greatest need at the time" (a right-handed power hitter) and that KW wanted a basestealer and as much salary space as possible. Vizcaino was frosting. There is absolutely no evidence that any team other than the Brewers offered more talent + salary space. At best, this is wild speculation. It's irresponsible to criticize somebody for not making an imaginary deal.

Crede has about as much trade value as Joe Borchard, since neither player has shown an ability to consistently hit at the major league level.

voodoochile
04-13-2005, 05:28 PM
That would be a solid team, except I think Koskie was set on returning to his native country in Canada, though I could be wrong.

And, I don't just think you can say, "I would have done this and this...." -- I'd bet there's a lot of things that goes on between the GM/owner that we don't know about... We can speculate, but really can't be certain.

Like that pesky little $3M additional Payroll he has added to the budget...

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 05:33 PM
Joe Crede makes 340k in 2005. Scott Podsednik makes 550k.

We should at least get the numbers right in this debate.
Dye will make $4 million next year and $5 million in 2006. Chicago has a $6 million option in 2007 with a $1.15 million buyout. Dye's minimal cost $10.15M/2yr.

ESPN reports Pods at 700K, & Vizc at $1.3M. If Vizc is a FA in 2006 to keep him it's going to cost at least $1.7M. For 2006, 7 yrs of experience as a top 40 NL pen guy will command that. For 2006, 5 yrs experience as a top base steal is going to net Pods at least $2.3M in arbitration.

What you can argue is that if Dye works out his $6M for 2007 will probably be at least $4M less than what Lee's expected to make. But then there is the possibility White Sox revenue can grow in that time to compensate the additional cost.

maurice
04-13-2005, 05:39 PM
We can only speculate on the size of the budget based on team revenue as published by Forbes on a yearly basis.

No, we can't. The budget is how much JR and his boys decide the budget is. They don't care what you, Forbes, and the NFL think . . . or whether you "would have fought tooth & nail" for extra money . . . or your conjecture concerning increased revenue following the Iguchi signing. They barely care what KW thinks, and they hired him.

I have written a basis as to why Crede could have been used instead.

No, you've written wild speculation that Crede could have been used instead of CLee. Yet, there is no reason to believe that Crede's trade value remotely approaches CLee's trade value or that anybody would want the player who was one of the worst regulars in all of baseball last season instead of the Brewer's current cleanup hitter.

If I were GM of the White Sox this is what I would have done:
1-Built a trade around Crede for Pods.

That's a horrible trade. If I were GM of the White Sox, I would trade Crede for Rolen. Then, I'd unplug my Playstation and go to bed.

Any one want to argue our current team is better than this?

Absolutely. Our current team, which actually exists, would beat the crap out of your fantasy team, which is a figment of your imagination.

CubKiller5
04-13-2005, 05:43 PM
Like that pesky little $3M additional Payroll he has added to the budget...

Again I did say Iguchi was iffy, but I think I could have made a convincing argument that the Japanese connection with Shingo would boost the gate enough to pay his salary.

You can't say that about the other new acquisitions.

Do you honestly believe that $400K Crede's 40HR/2yr & his experience at 3B gives him no greater trade value than Borchy? :rolleyes:

I've heard of Crede bashing but that's ridiculous.

maurice
04-13-2005, 05:49 PM
Again I did say Iguchi was iffy, but I think I could have made a convincing argument that the Japanese connection with Shingo would boost the gate enough to pay his salary.

Except that KW actually DID sign Iguchi and already received a payroll bump to it's current level.

voodoochile
04-13-2005, 05:52 PM
Again I did say Iguchi was iffy, but I think I could have made a convincing argument that the Japanese connection with Shingo would boost the gate enough to pay his salary.

You can say that about the other new acquisitions.

Do you honestly believe that $400K Crede's 40HR/2yr & his experience at 3B gives him no greater trade value than Borchy? :rolleyes:

I've heard of Crede bashing but that's ridiculous.

Okay, so at the current salary level, you just gave back Iguchi and replaced him with harris and you still need to cut another $1M to get down to the current level. Now does that change the assessment of your fantasy team just a bit? Given how solidly Iguchi has started for the team (and assuming he actually continues to get better), it dramatically changes the output and reduces the margin between the two teams to something almost meaningless. By the time you end up cutting the other $1M in salary, you are going to be back to Borchard in the OF instead of Pods.

Okay, you just lost your top two slots in the order. Who will be replacing them on your team?

Next, what happens if Crede actually hits up closer to his expectations this season (.265, 25, 80, .330 OBP)? Yes, it actually is possible especially if he continues to shorten his swing and go to RF as he has tried to do so far early in the season?

Now your team is actually WORSE than the current Sox team and that's before we factor in Dye having a good year and not declining from his career averages. If that happens, the team as configured will wax your team all over the park any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

What the heck. You can mak stuff up and so can I...:rolleyes:

mweflen
04-13-2005, 05:52 PM
say what you want, disagree with whatever points you like, at least the writer of this article did his homework. It's about a zillion times better than any assessment I've read in one of the major sports news outlets.

I hope the Sox do better than "All in with a 3-8 off suit in the hole," and I think they will. But I have rose colored glasses on. Just because this guy thinks players X,Y and Z will do poorly doesn't make hima troll.

Flight #24
04-13-2005, 05:52 PM
We should at least get the numbers right in this debate.
Dye will make $4 million next year and $5 million in 2006. Chicago has a $6 million option in 2007 with a $1.15 million buyout. Dye's minimal cost $10.15M/2yr.

ESPN reports Pods at 700K, & Vizc at $1.3M. If Vizc is a FA in 2006 to keep him it's going to cost at least $1.7M. For 2006, 7 yrs of experience as a top 40 NL pen guy will command that. For 2006, 5 yrs experience as a top base steal is going to net Pods at least $2.3M in arbitration.

What you can argue is that if Dye works out his $6M for 2007 will probably be at least $4M less than what Lee's expected to make. But then there is the possibility White Sox revenue can grow in that time to compensate the additional cost.

Dugoutdollars has Pods at 550. Regardless, even if he's at 7, it's a wash with Crede (listed on ESPN at 400k). Not exactly significant savings.

Your entire point turns on a series of ludicrous assertions
- you could trade Crede+ for Podsednik, which is patently ludicrous, unless you're including Sweeney/Anderson/McCarthy or someone similar.
- You can simply increase payroll by asking JR to do so
- KW was supposed to project AJ being available and not getting any decent offers. Or were you just hoping to stick with Jamie Burke as starting C?
- the "choice" was Dye or Lee

As I said before: I can't argue with irrationality. (And this time I mean it!)

Good luck to you.

daveeym
04-13-2005, 05:58 PM
say what you want, disagree with whatever points you like, at least the writer of this article did his homework. It's about a zillion times better than any assessment I've read in one of the major sports news outlets.

I hope the Sox do better than "All in with a 3-8 off suit in the hole," and I think they will. But I have rose colored glasses on. Just because this guy thinks players X,Y and Z will do poorly doesn't make hima troll. Oh this argument is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy beyond having much to do with the article.

mweflen
04-13-2005, 06:03 PM
Oh this argument is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy beyond having much to do with the article.

yeah, i got to this thread late in the day and didn't want to read it all :D: