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View Full Version : Craig Counsell vs Ray Durham


fuzzy_patters
11-02-2001, 12:17 PM
Is it just me or is Craig Counsell about 4X as good defensively as Ray Ray. Yet, Counsell is the journeyman and Ray is supposed to be a 2 time all star. Baseball priorities are out of wack if Durham is considered better than him. Counsell may not be flashy, but he has very good range. I would forgive the offensive shortcomings if we could have somebody like this.

Soxheads
11-02-2001, 12:19 PM
That is a trade I would truly like to see.

fuzzy_patters
11-02-2001, 12:29 PM
I was looking at these two teams last night while trying to figure out what makes them WS teams. One thing became painfully clear, they both have great range up the middle. Sure Jeter and Womack make some errors, but they have great range. Counsell and Soriano seem to get to everything, and Steve Finley is near peerless. I don't care for Bernie so I won't bother complimenting him.

How does this compare to our White Sox? Valentin is similar in ability to Jeter and especially Womack. He has great range, but he makes some errors. That's fine as long as he gets to lots of balls. Singleton and Rowand might have Bernie range but definitely not Finley type range. Ray Ray might have great vocal range or something, but his baseball range is terrible. I've always been a Ray fan, but it has become painfully obvious to me that he is the weakest link. Perhaps Royce could be convinced to try second next year. I still am not convinced he can make the throws from deep in the hole at short, and this could be made up for at second.

Randar68
11-02-2001, 12:50 PM
Craig Counsell is one of my co-worker's cousins. They were at game seven when he was with Florida...

I am tired of hearing about a guy who's gone something like 1-22 in the World Series...

GASHWOUND
11-02-2001, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Is it just me or is Craig Counsell about 4X as good defensively as Ray Ray. Yet, Counsell is the journeyman and Ray is supposed to be a 2 time all star. Baseball priorities are out of wack if Durham is considered better than him. Counsell may not be flashy, but he has very good range. I would forgive the offensive shortcomings if we could have somebody like this.

Well, when they pick people for the AllStar games your offensive #'s is what they look at first and Ray is FAR better with the offense. Also Ray may not have range, but that doesn't show up in the box score. Ray didn't make that many errors this year, so it deceives.

kermittheefrog
11-03-2001, 05:19 AM
Is this a troll? For an idea about the difference between the two players: Durham has more at-bats in the last three years than Counsell has in his 6 year career and that's not due to injuries. Counsell set his career high in ABs with 458 this year, his next highest is 335 in 1998. Durham has 600 ABs or more in the last five seasons. Durham plays a ton more, there is probably a reason for that. In addition we know Durham is very durable, that's a good thing. Who knows if Counsell will hold up if someone tries to give him 600 ABs.

Now as for the quality of those atbats, or why no one would want to give Craig Counsell 600 ABs. For their careers Durham's batting average is 7 points higher and his slugging percentage is a big 65 points higher. Counsell has the edge in OBP by 5 points. Durham has scored 100 runs in each of the last five years. Durham's runs and RBI totals combined over the last two seasons are more than Counsell has for his career in both categories.

Now this defensive thing, what exactly does being 4X better mean? It can't mean he gets to four times as many balls as Durham that would make Counsell the most dominant defensive baseball player ever. It also can't mean he's 4X less likely to make an error than Durham because the difference in fielding percentage from one player to another is nowhere near that big. Really the only way Counsell could make up the difference between him and Durham at the plate is if Durham were the worst defensive second baseman in the league and Counsell were the best. Neither of those things are true in this universe. Durham is also almost a year younger.

Bottom line: You'd have to be off your rocker to trade Durham for Counsell.

GASHWOUND
11-03-2001, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Is this a troll? For an idea about the difference between the two players: Durham has more at-bats in the last three years than Counsell has in his 6 year career and that's not due to injuries. Counsell set his career high in ABs with 458 this year, his next highest is 335 in 1998. Durham has 600 ABs or more in the last five seasons. Durham plays a ton more, there is probably a reason for that. In addition we know Durham is very durable, that's a good thing. Who knows if Counsell will hold up if someone tries to give him 600 ABs.

Now as for the quality of those atbats, or why no one would want to give Craig Counsell 600 ABs. For their careers Durham's batting average is 7 points higher and his slugging percentage is a big 65 points higher. Counsell has the edge in OBP by 5 points. Durham has scored 100 runs in each of the last five years. Durham's runs and RBI totals combined over the last two seasons are more than Counsell has for his career in both categories.

Now this defensive thing, what exactly does being 4X better mean? It can't mean he gets to four times as many balls as Durham that would make Counsell the most dominant defensive baseball player ever. It also can't mean he's 4X less likely to make an error than Durham because the difference in fielding percentage from one player to another is nowhere near that big. Really the only way Counsell could make up the difference between him and Durham at the plate is if Durham were the worst defensive second baseman in the league and Counsell were the best. Neither of those things are true in this universe. Durham is also almost a year younger.

Bottom line: You'd have to be off your rocker to trade Durham for Counsell.

Exactly

oldcomiskey
11-03-2001, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
. Perhaps Royce could be convinced to try second next year...

Perhaps Royce could be convinced to shoot himself in the foot

Daver
11-03-2001, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey


Perhaps Royce could be convinced to shoot himself in the foot

I will be more than happy to loan him the weapon and even offer instruction on its aiming and use.

kermittheefrog
11-04-2001, 02:22 AM
Out of curiousity should BMR have stopped in by now to reply to my post saying my stupid stathead ideas are wrong and the Counsell is 93.7x better than Durham?