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Fenway
04-05-2005, 06:06 PM
TMR's exclusive Fan Cost Indexhttp://www.teammarketing.com/tmtiny.gif survey, now in its thirteenth year, tracks the cost of attendance for a family of four. The FCI includes: two adult average price tickets; two child average price tickets; four small soft drinks; two small beers; four hot dogs; two programs; parking; and two adult-size caps.

The White Sox finished 6th at $ 188.07

Boston of course leads at $ 276.24 followed by the Cubs at $ 210.01


The Boston Herald is outraged :cool:

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=76595

jabrch
04-05-2005, 06:09 PM
I wonder where we'd rank if you then scaled it down to the Cost of Living factors of the various cities?

batmanZoSo
04-05-2005, 06:12 PM
TMR's exclusive Fan Cost Indexhttp://www.teammarketing.com/tmtiny.gif survey, now in its thirteenth year, tracks the cost of attendance for a family of four. The FCI includes: two adult average price tickets; two child average price tickets; four small soft drinks; two small beers; four hot dogs; two programs; parking; and two adult-size caps.

The White Sox finished 6th at $ 188.07

Boston of course leads at $ 276.24 followed by the Cubs at $ 210.01


The Boston Herald is outraged :cool:

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=76595

Take away those ridiculous caps (which cost as much as the ticket) and pointless programs (really, who needs a program, we all know why we're there) and you're down to 100 dollars. That's like going to a nice restaurant.

CWSGuy406
04-05-2005, 06:13 PM
TMR's exclusive Fan Cost Indexhttp://www.teammarketing.com/tmtiny.gif survey, now in its thirteenth year, tracks the cost of attendance for a family of four. The FCI includes: two adult average price tickets; two child average price tickets; four small soft drinks; two small beers; four hot dogs; two programs; parking; and two adult-size caps.

The White Sox finished 6th at $ 188.07

Boston of course leads at $ 276.24 followed by the Cubs at $ 210.01


The Boston Herald is outraged :cool:

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=76595

Didn't Bill James talk about that in the interview at SoSH, sort of saying that if there's a demand of 100,000+ for a stadium that only holds (what does Fenway hold, somewhere in the 30,000 I'd assume?), then it's just smart to raise ticket prices? Not that the fans will like it, but he was basically saying it's all about supply and demand...

ewokpelts
04-05-2005, 06:14 PM
Take away those ridiculous caps (which cost as much as the ticket) and pointless programs (really, who needs a program, we all know why we're there) and you're down to 100 dollars. That's like going to a nice restaurant.correct.....the cost of a cap varies(what if you buy a asg cap that's marked down to 10 bucks) and who buys TWO programs? one's all most people need...heel some people dont even buy a program, and they're season ticket holders! i'm sure this site dosent take into account promotional nights...
Gene

Fenway
04-05-2005, 06:20 PM
Didn't Bill James talk about that in the interview at SoSH, sort of saying that if there's a demand of 100,000+ for a stadium that only holds (what does Fenway hold, somewhere in the 30,000 I'd assume?), then it's just smart to raise ticket prices? Not that the fans will like it, but he was basically saying it's all about supply and demand...

The old master Bill Veeck wrote in Thirty Tons A Day that Tom Yawkey was no fool. With only 35,000 seats people had to buy early if they planned to come in the summer.

Now it is cheaper for fans to FLY to Chicago, stay in a hotel and go to 3 games at The Cell than try and get seats in Boston. A few teams always have strong support on the road but Boston maybe the only one where fans from Boston fly out to see games. ( as the only way to see the team )

ewokpelts
04-05-2005, 06:21 PM
The old master Bill Veeck wrote in Thirty Tons A Day that Tom Yawkey was no fool. With only 35,000 seats people had to buy early if they planned to come in the summer.

Now it is cheaper for fans to FLY to Chicago, stay in a hotel and go to 3 games at The Cell than try and get seats in Boston. A few teams always have strong support on the road but Boston maybe the only one where fans from Boston fly out to see games. ( as the only way to see the team )and that's why this bad "apple" raised ticket prices for bosox/sox games
:reinsy

batmanZoSo
04-05-2005, 06:22 PM
correct.....the cost of a cap varies(what if you buy a asg cap that's marked down to 10 bucks) and who buys TWO programs? one's all most people need...heel some people dont even buy a program, and they're season ticket holders! i'm sure this site dosent take into account promotional nights...
Gene

Well I'm sure they just threw programs in there for general cost purposes. I'm just against the concept of programs. Instead, you'll probably end up buying nachos or cotton candy if you have kids, so there's your ten bucks. But I'll tell you one thing, if I had kids and was strapped for cash, I wouldn't be feeding them at Sox park. It would be Mickey D's on the way to the park. That's what my dad always did. (Actually sometimes I wouldn't even get the Mickey D's!)

batmanZoSo
04-05-2005, 06:24 PM
and that's why this bad "apple" raised ticket prices for bosox/sox games
:reinsy

:reinsy
What? All I'm saying is there's a lot of that Beantown cash floating around and I just wanna get my hands on some of it. It's just good business.

Lip Man 1
04-05-2005, 06:27 PM
Who were the five teams ahead of the White Sox? I'm curious in terms of on the field success versus size of team payroll versus high ticket prices.

Lip

santo=dorf
04-05-2005, 07:17 PM
Who were the five teams ahead of the White Sox? I'm curious in terms of on the field success versus size of team payroll versus high ticket prices.

Lip

Why?

So you can conclude that higher ticket prices=more success?

:reinsy
"Finally! An excuse to jack up the prices!"

MeanFish
04-05-2005, 08:02 PM
Why?

So you can conclude that higher ticket prices=more success?

:reinsy
"Finally! An excuse to jack up the prices!"

:tealpolice:

"We're just driving through the area on the lookout for suspicious, potentially sarcastic dialogue."

Fenway
04-05-2005, 08:10 PM
Who were the five teams ahead of the White Sox? I'm curious in terms of on the field success versus size of team payroll versus high ticket prices.

Lip

Oops thought I put the link up :?:

http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm


1 Boston
2 1060 W Addison
3 Evil Empire
4 Giants
5 Phillies

Lip Man 1
04-05-2005, 10:48 PM
Dorf:

No but to see if having high ticket prices equated to high payroll which equated with actually winning something of substance.

Based on Fenway's list it seems the first four teams are at least giving their fans something meaningful by investing that money into quality players which has translated into playoff spots. The Phils and Sox seem to be raking in the cash yet for some strange reason that hasn't translated into playoff appearances. Wonder why...

Lip

MisterB
04-06-2005, 01:56 AM
Dorf:

No but to see if having high ticket prices equated to high payroll which equated with actually winning something of substance.

Based on Fenway's list it seems the first four teams are at least giving their fans something meaningful by investing that money into quality players which has translated into playoff spots. The Phils and Sox seem to be raking in the cash yet for some strange reason that hasn't translated into playoff appearances. Wonder why...

Lip

You can charge a lot for a product, but you won't be rolling in dough if people don't buy it. Check those teams' attendance figures for the last few years.

jenmcm76
04-06-2005, 08:21 AM
To answer some of the burning questions posted above, I ran some numbers (yes, I'm a geek)... First, I took out the caps and one of the programs - hey, the kids like 'em. The average was $134, and here's the top 10:

Boston - $242
Cubs - $181
Yankees - $159
WHITE SOX - $158
Houston - $157
San Francisco - $156
Philadelphia - $156
Mets - $153
Seattle - $151
St. Louis - $147

Then I ran a minimalist's trip to the park for a family of 4 - 2 adult tix, 2 children's tix, 4 small sodas, and parking. This time, the average drops down to $107, but the story worsens for the Sox:

Boston - $212
Cubs - $155
WHITE SOX - $132
Yankees - $131
Philadelphia - $128
San Francisco - $124
Houston - $124
Seattle - $123
Mets - $119
St. Louis - $118

Then I found the relative costs of living in all these other cities, and put their prices in 'Chicago dollars' )average of ($154):

Boston - $224
Cubs - $210
Houston - $204
St. Louis - $201
WHITE SOX - $188
Baltimore - $180
Philadelphia - $174
Cincinnati - $161
Arizona - $158
Tampa Bay - $158

So any way you slice it, the Sox are one of the top 6 most expensive ballparks to take your family of four (though the Cubs are always more expensive). For S & G's, I looked at if you were just on a date (removing the effect of discounted children's tickets), and it made very little difference. There are only 6 parks that offer discounted tickets for kids, and at most it's still under $2.50 less per ticket. Of course, I didn't take into effect any special promotions the parks might have - I might be crazy, but I'm not insane! :D:

gosox41
04-06-2005, 08:41 AM
Dorf:

No but to see if having high ticket prices equated to high payroll which equated with actually winning something of substance.

Based on Fenway's list it seems the first four teams are at least giving their fans something meaningful by investing that money into quality players which has translated into playoff spots. The Phils and Sox seem to be raking in the cash yet for some strange reason that hasn't translated into playoff appearances. Wonder why...

Lip

Lip,
Let's play Devil's advocate for a second here. You've state previously that winning a championship is al that matters and that merely making the playoffs or winning 95-100 games means nothing without it. Also, let's look at the last few years of data when theings are more relevant. so let's go down the list:

1. Red Sox-87 years to win a championship. How long do you think they've had the highest ticket prices.

2. Cubs- Almost 100 years since they last won a championship. THey've made the playoffs the same number of times as the White SOx in the 21st century. How long has their ticket prices been towards the top? Since at least 1998.

3. Yankees-The Yankees TV deal has a lot to do with the fact that they spend 50% more then the next closest club.

4. Giants-They've made the playoffs and have one World Series appearance in the last 14 years to show for it. Not good enough since they have zero rings, right? They also have the world's biggest cheater and liar their that helped them get victories. Instead of looking at payroll as an issue, maybe the Sox should encourage steroid use.

5. Phillies-They've been disappointments the last few years.

The only argument you may have is that JR has high ticket prices based on a lower attendance then all these clubs. I'd bet a lot of money that if the Sox attendendence were in the 2.6 M + range the Sox payroll would be significantly higher.


Bob

gosox41
04-06-2005, 08:44 AM
To answer some of the burning questions posted above, I ran some numbers (yes, I'm a geek)... First, I took out the caps and one of the programs - hey, the kids like 'em. The average was $134, and here's the top 10:

Boston - $242
Cubs - $181
Yankees - $159
WHITE SOX - $158
Houston - $157
San Francisco - $156
Philadelphia - $156
Mets - $153
Seattle - $151
St. Louis - $147

Then I ran a minimalist's trip to the park for a family of 4 - 2 adult tix, 2 children's tix, 4 small sodas, and parking. This time, the average drops down to $107, but the story worsens for the Sox:

Boston - $212
Cubs - $155
WHITE SOX - $132
Yankees - $131
Philadelphia - $128
San Francisco - $124
Houston - $124
Seattle - $123
Mets - $119
St. Louis - $118

Then I found the relative costs of living in all these other cities, and put their prices in 'Chicago dollars' )average of ($154):

Boston - $224
Cubs - $210
Houston - $204
St. Louis - $201
WHITE SOX - $188
Baltimore - $180
Philadelphia - $174
Cincinnati - $161
Arizona - $158
Tampa Bay - $158

So any way you slice it, the Sox are one of the top 6 most expensive ballparks to take your family of four (though the Cubs are always more expensive). For S & G's, I looked at if you were just on a date (removing the effect of discounted children's tickets), and it made very little difference. There are only 6 parks that offer discounted tickets for kids, and at most it's still under $2.50 less per ticket. Of course, I didn't take into effect any special promotions the parks might have - I might be crazy, but I'm not insane! :D:

Do these numbers take into account ticket promotions? How about the teacher's package the Sox offer? Do the Cubs offer one too? How about 1/2 price night? The Cubs definitely don't offer that.

It is possible to take your family to a Sox game for a lot less money. What about that marketng firm offering buy 1 get 1 free coupons?


Bob

JKryl
04-06-2005, 10:19 AM
I took my son to his first opening day, and the cost broke down as:
Parking $17
Tickets $60
Only 2 beers $11 (not counting tips)
Fun money for kid $20
Total $108

This is without a hot dog or any other snack on my part. The kids fun money paid for nachos, ice crean and a pop. I think the assessment is about right. Brooks may be more fan friendly, but it looks like it's only so he can get a little closer to the wallet. And, yes, I do realize it's a business, but you have to wonder where the upper limit is.

Paulwny
04-06-2005, 10:21 AM
I took my son to his first opening day, and the cost broke down as:
And, yes, I do realize it's a business, but you have to wonder where the upper limit is.

When you have a captive audience the sky's the limit.

mcfish
04-06-2005, 10:32 AM
The old master Bill Veeck wrote in Thirty Tons A Day that Tom Yawkey was no fool. With only 35,000 seats people had to buy early if they planned to come in the summer.

Now it is cheaper for fans to FLY to Chicago, stay in a hotel and go to 3 games at The Cell than try and get seats in Boston. A few teams always have strong support on the road but Boston maybe the only one where fans from Boston fly out to see games. ( as the only way to see the team )Come on, it's not that bad. I flew out to Boston last year to watch our Sox play the Dirty Sox and we bought tickets on ebay for the Saturday game and expected to watch the Friday game at a bar around Fenway. But we got there and there were like 30 guys trying to sell us tickets, so we just went to the Friday game for like $20 a ticket and I sat 20 rows up from the right field foul pole. (Talk about having to turn in your seat to see the game though - the seat faced the center field score board!) I can't imagine that the big Devil Rays series would be that hard to get a ticket to for a resonable price.

Tekijawa
04-06-2005, 10:39 AM
Didn't Bill James talk about that in the interview at SoSH, sort of saying that if there's a demand of 100,000+ for a stadium that only holds (what does Fenway hold, somewhere in the 30,000 I'd assume?), then it's just smart to raise ticket prices? Not that the fans will like it, but he was basically saying it's all about supply and demand...
So what is the Supply and demand Ratio for a 41,000 seat stadium that only has a demand of about 20,000?

mweflen
04-06-2005, 10:52 AM
All the marketing doublespeak and Jerry-mandering in the world doesn't change the simple notion - if people don't want the product at the price you're offering, lower the price or improve the product.

The jury's out on product improvement this season.

However, the 'lower the price' philosophy definitely has not taken hold. $17 for parking (which they cannot effectively direct you towards)? $24 for a bleacher seat (on a "regular" date - $33 for "premier" and $38 for Cubs)? A new $170 to $200 section, because fans were demanding new premium seating? (as opposed to the perennially empty "Diamond Suites" and $40 "Club Level")


I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again. The Sox pricing scheme is out of touch with their fan base and any concept of reality.

Ol' No. 2
04-06-2005, 10:55 AM
All the marketing doublespeak and Jerry-mandering in the world doesn't change the simple notion - if people don't want the product at the price you're offering, lower the price or improve the product.

The jury's out on product improvement this season.

However, the 'lower the price' philosophy definitely has not taken hold. $17 for parking (which they cannot effectively direct you towards)? $24 for a bleacher seat (on a "regular" date - $33 for "premier" and $38 for Cubs)? A new $170 to $200 section, because fans were demanding new premium seating? (as opposed to the perennially empty "Diamond Suites" and $40 "Club Level")


I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again. The Sox pricing scheme is out of touch with their fan base and any concept of reality.It doesn't follow that lower prices will increase demand sufficiently to make up for the lost revenues. It's called price elasticity of demand.

gosox41
04-06-2005, 10:58 AM
All the marketing doublespeak and Jerry-mandering in the world doesn't change the simple notion - if people don't want the product at the price you're offering, lower the price or improve the product.

The jury's out on product improvement this season.

However, the 'lower the price' philosophy definitely has not taken hold. $17 for parking (which they cannot effectively direct you towards)? $24 for a bleacher seat (on a "regular" date - $33 for "premier" and $38 for Cubs)? A new $170 to $200 section, because fans were demanding new premium seating? (as opposed to the perennially empty "Diamond Suites" and $40 "Club Level")


I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again. The Sox pricing scheme is out of touch with their fan base and any concept of reality.

The Sox are probably looking at supply/demand charts to maximize revenue, like most businesses do.

For the sake of simplicity, let's say the average Sox ticket was $25 per seat and they drew 2 mill. That's $50 mill in value. How many more people would the Sox draw if they lowered ticket prices by $1 or $5 or even $10? Does the difference in increased attendence make up the difference of a price decrease.

Now I know there are other issues regarding people buying food and souveniers. But we don't know the breakdown of what the Sox get per fan. Maybe the people that can't afford as much brings their own food. I'd be curious what the numbers are.

As for parking, it has to be looked at in a similar way. How many more cars would be parked at the Cell if prices were decreased? Of course this ties in directly to attending a game, so if parkingprices dropped $5 it's doubtful that many more people would go do games if ticket prices stayed the same.


Bob

irish rover
04-06-2005, 11:03 AM
not sure about all those numbers, $17 for parking at the cesspool?

AZChiSoxFan
04-06-2005, 11:21 AM
Even though I don't live in Chicago, I think it's great that the Sox have created opportunities for families to attend games, w/o taking out a 2nd mortgage (Sunday kids days, Mondays, and Pepsi Tuesdays).

The Critic
04-06-2005, 11:42 AM
Well I'm sure they just threw programs in there for general cost purposes. I'm just against the concept of programs. Instead, you'll probably end up buying nachos or cotton candy if you have kids, so there's your ten bucks. But I'll tell you one thing, if I had kids and was strapped for cash, I wouldn't be feeding them at Sox park. It would be Mickey D's on the way to the park. That's what my dad always did. (Actually sometimes I wouldn't even get the Mickey D's!)
Also, the Sox let you bring in a liter of bottled water and snacks, as long as they're in a clear plastic bag.
When we go to the game, we bring sandwiches, peanuts, cookies for the kid and the water. Usually I buy my daughter a cotton candy, but that's about it.
I don't normally buy beer at the game anymore - it's just not worth the price.

mweflen
04-06-2005, 12:00 PM
It doesn't follow that lower prices will increase demand sufficiently to make up for the lost revenues. It's called price elasticity of demand.

please see "marketing doublespeak" in my post.

Why do 20,000 people come dressed as empty seats every day if the "supply/demand charts" are so accurate?



Can't talk now, though - have to play hooky from work and sit in my $7 upper deck seat today. beautiful day for a game! :D:

I'll tell you this - had the friends and family discount applied to June-September, I would have purchased probably 5 or 6 additional sets of tickets. Net for the Sox: $84. Instead, they'll get $0 and my fanny on a couch.

Supply and demand my heiny.

jenmcm76
04-06-2005, 12:08 PM
not sure about all those numbers, $17 for parking at the cesspool?

Yes, indeedy... Listed on the prepaid coupons is the breakdown of charges/surcharges:
$13.75 - Parking
$2.25 - City Tax
$1.00 - County Tax
"Includes surcharge due to new City of Chicago traffic personnel charges."

And we all know how wonderful the traffic personnel around there is...

Ol' No. 2
04-06-2005, 12:11 PM
please see "marketing doublespeak" in my post.

Why do 20,000 people come dressed as empty seats every day if the "supply/demand charts" are so accurate?



Can't talk now, though - have to play hooky from work and sit in my $7 upper deck seat today. beautiful day for a game! :D:

I'll tell you this - had the friends and family discount applied to June-September, I would have purchased probably 5 or 6 additional sets of tickets. Net for the Sox: $84. Instead, they'll get $0 and my fanny on a couch.

Supply and demand my heiny.In other words, if it doesn't correspond to what you believe, it's doublespeak. Gotcha.

Have fun at the game.

Lip Man 1
04-06-2005, 12:11 PM
Mweflen:

Interesting points and I tend to agree with your comments.

I see 'The Friends Of Uncle Jerry' are back out in force LOL!

By the way, just wondering, since this hasn't been addressed.

The Sox have the 6th highest cost to see a game. The five teams ahead of them in the 'standings' all have higher payrolls, all but the Phillies have been to the post season in recent years, all but the Cubs and Phils, have been there multiple times (so their fans are apparently getting something back for their money spent), where is all that Sox ticket money going?

Until very recently the Sox payroll wasn't even in the same state as the top 5, at least now it's in the same area code. (Which is progress...and no that shouldn't be in teal.)

Lip

Ol' No. 2
04-06-2005, 12:17 PM
Mweflen:

Interesting points and I tend to agree with your comments.

I see 'The Friends Of Uncle Jerry' are back out in force LOL!

By the way, just wondering, since this hasn't been addressed.

The Sox have the 6th highest cost to see a game. The five teams ahead of them in the 'standings' all have higher payrolls, all but the Phillies have been to the post season in recent years, all but the Cubs and Phils, have been there multiple times (so their fans are apparently getting something back for their money spent), where is all that Sox ticket money going?

Until very recently the Sox payroll wasn't even in the same state as the top 5, at least now it's in the same area code. (Which is progress...and no that shouldn't be in teal.)

LipHow high the prices are is irrelevant if the seat is empty. But of course, you just ignore that inconvenient fact.

Lip Man 1
04-06-2005, 12:27 PM
No. 2:

And you remove high payroll teams from your 'statistical analysis,' in order to prove your point...so we're even.

:smile:

Lip

Ol' No. 2
04-06-2005, 12:32 PM
No. 2:

And you remove high payroll teams from your 'statistical analysis,' in order to prove your point...so we're even.

:smile:

LipWhen you have no answer, bring up a red herring. Nice work.

gosox41
04-06-2005, 01:20 PM
please see "marketing doublespeak" in my post.

Why do 20,000 people come dressed as empty seats every day if the "supply/demand charts" are so accurate?



Can't talk now, though - have to play hooky from work and sit in my $7 upper deck seat today. beautiful day for a game! :D:

I'll tell you this - had the friends and family discount applied to June-September, I would have purchased probably 5 or 6 additional sets of tickets. Net for the Sox: $84. Instead, they'll get $0 and my fanny on a couch.

Supply and demand my heiny.

On the flip side, why is it the most expensive seats (not including that new section since it's new) are the one's that sell first?

There are a lot of fans sitting in the lower deck between the bases.

Bob

Ol' No. 2
04-06-2005, 01:53 PM
On the flip side, why is it the most expensive seats (not including that new section since it's new) are the one's that sell first?

There are a lot of fans sitting in the lower deck between the bases.

BobExcellent point. If price were the biggest issue, the cheapest seats should fill up first.

ewokpelts
04-06-2005, 05:14 PM
please see "marketing doublespeak" in my post.

Why do 20,000 people come dressed as empty seats every day if the "supply/demand charts" are so accurate?



Can't talk now, though - have to play hooky from work and sit in my $7 upper deck seat today. beautiful day for a game! :D:

I'll tell you this - had the friends and family discount applied to June-September, I would have purchased probably 5 or 6 additional sets of tickets. Net for the Sox: $84. Instead, they'll get $0 and my fanny on a couch.

Supply and demand my heiny.they dont need online promos to sell tix in june-sept...that's why it applied only to april/may...after all they have done to make things easier., people still want more
Gene

Johnny Mostil
04-06-2005, 10:10 PM
Do these numbers take into account ticket promotions? How about the teacher's package the Sox offer? Do the Cubs offer one too? How about 1/2 price night? The Cubs definitely don't offer that.

It is possible to take your family to a Sox game for a lot less money. What about that marketng firm offering buy 1 get 1 free coupons?


Bob

I don't know about all the promos, but the URL where these data are listed clearly indicate that half-price nights are figured into the calculations.

batmanZoSo
04-06-2005, 11:41 PM
To answer some of the burning questions posted above, I ran some numbers (yes, I'm a geek)... First, I took out the caps and one of the programs - hey, the kids like 'em. The average was $134, and here's the top 10:

Boston - $242
Cubs - $181
Yankees - $159
WHITE SOX - $158
Houston - $157
San Francisco - $156
Philadelphia - $156
Mets - $153
Seattle - $151
St. Louis - $147

Then I ran a minimalist's trip to the park for a family of 4 - 2 adult tix, 2 children's tix, 4 small sodas, and parking. This time, the average drops down to $107, but the story worsens for the Sox:

Boston - $212
Cubs - $155
WHITE SOX - $132
Yankees - $131
Philadelphia - $128
San Francisco - $124
Houston - $124
Seattle - $123
Mets - $119
St. Louis - $118

Then I found the relative costs of living in all these other cities, and put their prices in 'Chicago dollars' )average of ($154):

Boston - $224
Cubs - $210
Houston - $204
St. Louis - $201
WHITE SOX - $188
Baltimore - $180
Philadelphia - $174
Cincinnati - $161
Arizona - $158
Tampa Bay - $158

So any way you slice it, the Sox are one of the top 6 most expensive ballparks to take your family of four (though the Cubs are always more expensive). For S & G's, I looked at if you were just on a date (removing the effect of discounted children's tickets), and it made very little difference. There are only 6 parks that offer discounted tickets for kids, and at most it's still under $2.50 less per ticket. Of course, I didn't take into effect any special promotions the parks might have - I might be crazy, but I'm not insane! :D:

We're certainly not 6th in attendance. I'm no economics guy, but if the demand is low, shouldn't you lower the prices?

shoota
04-07-2005, 12:01 AM
please see "marketing doublespeak" in my post.

Why do 20,000 people come dressed as empty seats every day if the "supply/demand charts" are so accurate?



Can't talk now, though - have to play hooky from work and sit in my $7 upper deck seat today. beautiful day for a game! :D:

I'll tell you this - had the friends and family discount applied to June-September, I would have purchased probably 5 or 6 additional sets of tickets. Net for the Sox: $84. Instead, they'll get $0 and my fanny on a couch.

Supply and demand my heiny.

I'm with you mweflen. I like going to games in the summer and on weekends and against good teams and sit in the lower level.

And since I don't go to Sox games by myself, I increase attendance by taking others with me. I take a lot of fringe Sox/baseball fans with me which helps attendance.

I'm certainly not unique in the way I increase attendance. There are tons of die-hard Sox fans who drag their friends with them to games. So if the Sox would allow the die-hards to pick games they want to go to and not put so many restrictions on what games we can attend in the 9 and 13-game plans, Comiskey would have a higher attendance.

SouthBendSox
04-07-2005, 12:11 AM
I wonder where we'd rank if you then scaled it down to the Cost of Living factors of the various cities?

well, that would either make the Sox stuff relatively MORE expensive... or just be totally immaterial to the discussion

FIRE JERRY

mweflen
04-07-2005, 12:52 AM
And since I don't go to Sox games by myself, I increase attendance by taking others with me. I take a lot of fringe Sox/baseball fans with me which helps attendance.

I'm certainly not unique in the way I increase attendance. There are tons of die-hard Sox fans who drag their friends with them to games. So if the Sox would allow the die-hards to pick games they want to go to and not put so many restrictions on what games we can attend in the 9 and 13-game plans, Comiskey would have a higher attendance.

This is a great point. I just purchased some half price monday tix for a marginal sox-fan friend today. I guarantee he wouldn't have been interested in full price tickets.

The most expensive seats fill because they are the better seats generally speaking. If you're satisfied with 15-20k per game, as the sox seem to be, then the pricing scheme is fine.

If you want to start averaging 30k-plus, prices are going to have to come down, or winning is going to have to go up. Case in point - Mondays and tuesdays last season. Call me crazy, but I went to most of those games, and they averaged 25-30k per game. I also went to some wednedsdays and thursdays, and without fail they were 15-20k tops.

Doesn't take a genius to see the trend. The lower deck was full for all of the above. But the upper deck filled MORE for mondays and tuesdays.

MisterB
04-07-2005, 03:48 AM
This is a great point. I just purchased some half price monday tix for a marginal sox-fan friend today. I guarantee he wouldn't have been interested in full price tickets.

The most expensive seats fill because they are the better seats generally speaking. If you're satisfied with 15-20k per game, as the sox seem to be, then the pricing scheme is fine.

If you want to start averaging 30k-plus, prices are going to have to come down, or winning is going to have to go up. Case in point - Mondays and tuesdays last season. Call me crazy, but I went to most of those games, and they averaged 25-30k per game. I also went to some wednedsdays and thursdays, and without fail they were 15-20k tops.

Doesn't take a genius to see the trend. The lower deck was full for all of the above. But the upper deck filled MORE for mondays and tuesdays.

But if you cut prices in half and draw twice as many fans, you're still making the same amount of money. The point isn't attendance for attendance's sake, it's increased attendance to increase revenue. For argument's sake you could say 'the Sox could draw like the Cubs if they cut ticket prices by 40%' which is all well and good, but considering the Sox are already at 90% of the Cubs' ticket prices, dropping them by 40% means in the end they still make 54% of the Cubs ticket revenue, which really doesn't do them a damn bit of good. If you look at the Sox per-game attendance over the last few years, one trend that shows up is that if the Sox are playing well and in the thick of the pennant race, ATTENDANCE INCREASES. The trick is keeping prices where they are and increase interest in the club by being competitive, and therefore actually reaping the reward of increased revenue.

jenmcm76
04-07-2005, 09:05 AM
But if you cut prices in half and draw twice as many fans, you're still making the same amount of money. The point isn't attendance for attendance's sake, it's increased attendance to increase revenue. For argument's sake you could say 'the Sox could draw like the Cubs if they cut ticket prices by 40%' which is all well and good, but considering the Sox are already at 90% of the Cubs' ticket prices, dropping them by 40% means in the end they still make 54% of the Cubs ticket revenue, which really doesn't do them a damn bit of good. If you look at the Sox per-game attendance over the last few years, one trend that shows up is that if the Sox are playing well and in the thick of the pennant race, ATTENDANCE INCREASES. The trick is keeping prices where they are and increase interest in the club by being competitive, and therefore actually reaping the reward of increased revenue.

You make a valid point, but you're leaving out the added revenue from concessions, souvenirs, and parking that those extra fans would bring. Some fans attracted by the lower ticket prices might not be as willing to spend as much on those extras, but then again, some might be willing to spend a little more on those things since their overall cost would even out. I'm guessing that if you cut prices by 20% and only attracted 10% more fans, you'd probably break even, plus you'd generate a larger fan base.

That said, I think they should focus lesson the fact that they're 6th, and more on the fact that any way you sliced those numbers, they were still 10-15% cheaper than Wrigley - not including promotions! So they should run a commercial showing a cost comparison between Monday night at Wrigley vs. Monday night with the Sox.

One average Monday ticket, one beer, one soda, one hot dog, and getting to pee in a trough.... $42.25
One average Monday ticket, one beer, one soda, one hot dog, and getting to cheer a team that's there to win.... Priceless (aka $23.95)

mweflen
04-07-2005, 09:44 AM
You make a valid point, but you're leaving out the added revenue from concessions, souvenirs, and parking that those extra fans would bring. Some fans attracted by the lower ticket prices might not be as willing to spend as much on those extras, but then again, some might be willing to spend a little more on those things since their overall cost would even out. I'm guessing that if you cut prices by 20% and only attracted 10% more fans, you'd probably break even, plus you'd generate a larger fan base.

That said, I think they should focus lesson the fact that they're 6th, and more on the fact that any way you sliced those numbers, they were still 10-15% cheaper than Wrigley - not including promotions! So they should run a commercial showing a cost comparison between Monday night at Wrigley vs. Monday night with the Sox.

One average Monday ticket, one beer, one soda, one hot dog, and getting to pee in a trough.... $42.25
One average Monday ticket, one beer, one soda, one hot dog, and getting to cheer a team that's there to win.... Priceless (aka $23.95)

Yes. The ticket cost is only a percentage of the day of game spending by a fan - sometimes as little as a quarter of his or her budget. When parking costs $17, Beer $5.50, Pizza or a dog $4, etc. etc., you earn more even with the "loss" on the seat.

Also, season ticket holders pay the regular price for mondays and tuesdays regardless. So really, in a game attended by 30,000, only half of those are half price tickets.

Bottom line - a full seat ALWAYS generates more money than an empty one - regardless of the ticket price. They could charge $1 for upper deck seats in April and May games, and still make much more in total than if they hadn't. This is what I've always advocated for the Sox - not cutting all prices by half, but creating a true year-round budget section - with tickets for less than $10 all year round - as 6 of 8 playoff teams last year had.

I've never said cutting prices is the ONLY way the Sox can draw more fans. Winning is the other way. But one is guaranteed (and proven over the past 5 seasons) while the other isn't.

mweflen
04-07-2005, 10:00 AM
Some 2005 prices from around the league:

Angels: LF Family Pavilion $9 adult/$5 kids (2-18!) ALL YEAR.
Braves: Upper Pavilion $5, Skyline $1 ALL YEAR.
Astros: Outfield Deck $5 adult/$1 kids ALL YEAR.
Cards: Upper Terrace Reserved $9 adults/$5 kids ALL YEAR.
Dodgers: Top Deck $6, Pavilion (The entire OF) $6 ALL YEAR.

Do these teams seem to have any one thing in common, besides their budget sections? (Clue - it's not their market size - they range from big to small market teams all.)

MisterB
04-07-2005, 10:05 AM
You make a valid point, but you're leaving out the added revenue from concessions, souvenirs, and parking that those extra fans would bring. Some fans attracted by the lower ticket prices might not be as willing to spend as much on those extras, but then again, some might be willing to spend a little more on those things since their overall cost would even out. I'm guessing that if you cut prices by 20% and only attracted 10% more fans, you'd probably break even, plus you'd generate a larger fan base.

That said, I think they should focus lesson the fact that they're 6th, and more on the fact that any way you sliced those numbers, they were still 10-15% cheaper than Wrigley - not including promotions! So they should run a commercial showing a cost comparison between Monday night at Wrigley vs. Monday night with the Sox.

One average Monday ticket, one beer, one soda, one hot dog, and getting to pee in a trough.... $42.25
One average Monday ticket, one beer, one soda, one hot dog, and getting to cheer a team that's there to win.... Priceless (aka $23.95)

If people are so cost-conscious as to forgo seeing a game solely due to ticket price, chances are they're not dropping cash on souvenirs and will bring their own food (and will either take CTA or find parking arrangements that don't include forking over $17 for the official lots). I just think that if you put a team on the field that's worth seeing, price becomes less of a factor in attendance (see the other teams ahead of the Sox on that list other than the Phillies).

mweflen
04-07-2005, 10:08 AM
If people are so cost-conscious as to forgo seeing a game solely due to ticket price, chances are they're not dropping cash on souvenirs and will bring their own food (and will either take CTA or find parking arrangements that don't include forking over $17 for the official lots). I just think that if you put a team on the field that's worth seeing, price becomes less of a factor in attendance (see the other teams ahead of the Sox on that list other than the Phillies).

You're right, the Sox should make either $0 or $14 for an UD Reserve seat. Anything in between is unacceptable.

Johnny Mostil
04-07-2005, 10:10 AM
Some 2005 prices from around the league:

Angels: LF Family Pavilion $9 adult/$5 kids (2-18!) ALL YEAR.
Braves: Upper Pavilion $5, Skyline $1 ALL YEAR.
Astros: Outfield Deck $5 adult/$1 kids ALL YEAR.
Cards: Upper Terrace Reserved $9 adults/$5 kids ALL YEAR.
Dodgers: Top Deck $6, Pavilion (The entire OF) $6 ALL YEAR.

Do these teams seem to have any one thing in common, besides their budget sections? (Clue - it's not their market size - they range from big to small market teams all.)

Umm . . . they're all below the 39th parallel?

It's been a few years since I lived in SoCal, and I was there only 2 1/2 years, so I may not be remembering the details right, but I used to love the family deals the Angels and Dodgers put together--four tix, four hot dogs, four drinks, parking and a souvenir for less than $40. As a result, to this day my kids have seen more SoCal than South Side baseball.

mweflen
04-07-2005, 10:11 AM
Umm . . . they're all below the 39th parallel?

It's been a few years since I lived in SoCal, and I was there only 2 1/2 years, so I may not be remembering the details right, but I used to love the family deals the Angels and Dodgers put together--four tix, four hot dogs, four drinks, parking and a souvenir for less than $40. As a result, to this day my kids have seen more SoCal than South Side baseball.

Things in common: They all made the playoffs. They all draw more fans than the Sox. They all have year-round budget sections.

MisterB
04-07-2005, 10:17 AM
You're right, the Sox should make either $0 or $14 for an UD Reserve seat. Anything in between is unacceptable.

No you're right, the lack of a budget section is the only reason the Sox haven't made the playoffs the last 4 years.

mweflen
04-07-2005, 10:19 AM
No you're right, the lack of a budget section is the only reason the Sox haven't made the playoffs the last 4 years.

That's a pretty specious conclusion to draw from my statements. The lack of a budget section is why the Sox haven't drawn in the top half of the majors for the past 4 years, not why they haven't made the playoffs. We all know those reasons all too well.

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 10:47 AM
That's a pretty specious conclusion to draw from my statements. The lack of a budget section is why the Sox haven't drawn in the top half of the majors for the past 4 years, not why they haven't made the playoffs. We all know those reasons all too well.So what you're saying is that the Sox marketing people are so inept they don't understand basic economic principles? Or, alternatively, maybe the situation is not as simple as you think. It doesn't follow that a decrease in price will increase demand sufficiently to bring about an overall increase in revenues (even if you do factor in concessions, parking, etc.) The "marketing doublespeak" you so cavalierly dismiss is actually a well-developed way of determining just that. Do a google search on price elasticity of demand or just peruse this article (http://www.quickmba.com/econ/micro/elas/ped.shtml).

mweflen
04-07-2005, 10:56 AM
So what you're saying is that the Sox marketing people are so inept they don't understand basic economic principles? Or, alternatively, maybe the situation is not as simple as you think. It doesn't follow that a decrease in price will increase demand sufficiently to bring about an overall increase in revenues (even if you do factor in concessions, parking, etc.) The "marketing doublespeak" you so cavalierly dismiss is actually a well-developed way of determining just that. Do a google search on price elasticity of demand or just peruse this article (http://www.quickmba.com/econ/micro/elas/ped.shtml).

ON2,

I apologize for cavalierly dismissing marketing "doublespeak." :wink:

However, the evidence of my eyes and my experience trumps marketing theory for me. Every half price game I have attended since 2000 has drawn 30k or more fans. Whereas, 80% plus of the regular priced games I've attended have drawn less than 25k.

So it seems pretty evident that there is a strong correlation (to use some statistical jargon/doublespeak) between decreased prices and increased attendance. How can you refute this? It's irrefutable.

The conclusion for overall revenue is not irrefutable, as you say. Certainly, there is room to believe that 5,000 more fans may end up resulting in a net decrease in revenue over 5,000 less.

I just don't believe it. :cool:

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 11:08 AM
ON2,

I apologize for cavalierly dismissing marketing "doublespeak." :wink:

However, the evidence of my eyes and my experience trumps marketing theory for me. Every half price game I have attended since 2000 has drawn 30k or more fans. Whereas, 80% plus of the regular priced games I've attended have drawn less than 25k.

So it seems pretty evident that there is a strong correlation (to use some statistical jargon/doublespeak) between decreased prices and increased attendance. How can you refute this? It's irrefutable.

The conclusion for overall revenue is not irrefutable, as you say. Certainly, there is room to believe that 5,000 more fans may end up resulting in a net decrease in revenue over 5,000 less.

I just don't believe it. :cool:What I'm trying to say is that Jerry Reinsdorf, whatever you might think of him, is a successful businessman. I think we all agree that he's going to do whatever it takes to maximize revenues. And he's smart enough to hire marketing people who are smart enough to be able to figure out the pricing strategy that results in the most revenue.

Johnny Mostil
04-07-2005, 11:10 AM
Things in common: They all made the playoffs. They all draw more fans than the Sox. They all have year-round budget sections.

Oh, honestly, I knew that. I also recall the Reds selling 'top six' (or something like that) tix ($2.50 per?) for the highest rows at Riverfront/Cinergy. I don't recall them during that time being as consistent on the field as the teams you cited, but I know they won a World Series during that time.

mweflen
04-07-2005, 11:26 AM
What I'm trying to say is that Jerry Reinsdorf, whatever you might think of him, is a successful businessman. I think we all agree that he's going to do whatever it takes to maximize revenues. And he's smart enough to hire marketing people who are smart enough to be able to figure out the pricing strategy that results in the most revenue.

My opinion of JR doesn't factor into this discussion. I'm pretty ambivalent about him. My opinion of the ticket prices is not ambivalent, however. They suck.

gosox41
04-07-2005, 12:03 PM
My opinion of JR doesn't factor into this discussion. I'm pretty ambivalent about him. My opinion of the ticket prices is not ambivalent, however. They suck.

I'm guessing you'd still think they sucked if the upper deck was $9 a ticket.

I see the argument about why you think ticket prices are too high, but on the flipside, how come the expensive seats are the first one's to sell?


Bob

mweflen
04-07-2005, 12:06 PM
I'm guessing you'd still think they sucked if the upper deck was $9 a ticket.

I see the argument about why you think ticket prices are too high, but on the flipside, how come the expensive seats are the first one's to sell?


Bob

It's never been a problem to sell LD tix. Never.

It's always been a problem selling UD tix. ALWAYS.

So maybe they ought to keep LD prices the same and lower UD prices.

Call me crazy.


For the record, if UD tix were $9 a game, I'd go to more games, and the Sox would make more money from me. The difference between paying $18 for a set of 2 and $28 for a set of 2 is a pretty big psychological hurdle for a budget conscious consumer. Which, to the best of my recollection, many Sox fans are. (all those full seats on mondays and tuesdays seem to be a pretty good indication)

mcfish
04-07-2005, 12:10 PM
However, the evidence of my eyes and my experience trumps marketing theory for me. Every half price game I have attended since 2000 has drawn 30k or more fans. Whereas, 80% plus of the regular priced games I've attended have drawn less than 25k.

So it seems pretty evident that there is a strong correlation (to use some statistical jargon/doublespeak) between decreased prices and increased attendance. How can you refute this? It's irrefutable.

The conclusion for overall revenue is not irrefutable, as you say. Certainly, there is room to believe that 5,000 more fans may end up resulting in a net decrease in revenue over 5,000 less.

I just don't believe it. :cool:But those half price games are only twice a week and they are "special." If the same prices happend every day, I would think that most likely the extra people from Mon/Tues would even out across the week and you wouldn't see much increase or possibly you might even see a decrease because some people are going only because they think they are getting a deal. There could be an increase, but I just don't see demand going up that much - those 1/2 price nights still don't sell out a lot of the time, they are just much closer to full.

mweflen
04-07-2005, 12:20 PM
But those half price games are only twice a week and they are "special." If the same prices happend every day, I would think that most likely the extra people from Mon/Tues would even out across the week and you wouldn't see much increase or possibly you might even see a decrease because some people are going only because they think they are getting a deal. There could be an increase, but I just don't see demand going up that much - those 1/2 price nights still don't sell out a lot of the time, they are just much closer to full.

I agree these are potential issues. Perhaps Monday thru Thursday games should have $5 UD seats. I'm "elastic" as far as the type of deal it could be. The main point is, prices for the "cheap seats" are too high to make them an attractive option for the budget consumer.

Anyone watching tumbleweeds blow through the stands on Wednesdays could tell you that. I've certainly been to plenty of them.

Lip Man 1
04-07-2005, 12:26 PM
No. 2 says:

"And he's smart enough to hire marketing people who are smart enough to be able to figure out the pricing strategy that results in the most revenue."

Ummm...how long was ROB GALLAS in change of marketing? He did wonders for the organization didn't he? LOL and who hired him?????

:smile:

Lip

mweflen
04-07-2005, 12:37 PM
http://geocities.com/matthewweflen/untitled.bmp

ewokpelts
04-07-2005, 12:38 PM
http://geocities.com/matthewweflen/untitled.bmpoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ook...
Gene

mweflen
04-07-2005, 12:39 PM
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook...
Gene

Man, doesn't anybody read anymore? :D:

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 12:43 PM
Man, doesn't anybody read anymore? :D:When you're done with that, see what you can do about gas prices, will ya?

mweflen
04-07-2005, 12:45 PM
When you're done with that, see what you can do about gas prices, will ya?

Of course. We knights errant love to take on big battles.

(It's Don Quixote, for those who skipped freshman english in high school, btw)

gosox41
04-07-2005, 01:03 PM
(all those full seats on mondays and tuesdays seem to be a pretty good indication)

I also get the feeling that a decent portion of those people buying cheaper seats for Mon./Tues. games are fair weather Sox fans or even Cub fans who need an excuse to come out.

I'm certainly not saying you fall in that category but it's not all budget minded Sox fans that show up for cheap tickets.

I also find it funny how many drunks there are. So I understand it a lot of these people want cheap tickets but they also pay $7 a beer to get loaded.


Bob

Ol' No. 2
04-07-2005, 01:10 PM
I also find it funny how many drunks there are. So I understand it a lot of these people want cheap tickets but they also pay $7 a beer to get loaded.
BobI'm glad I'm not the only one mystified by this.:?:

mweflen
04-07-2005, 01:11 PM
I also get the feeling that a decent portion of those people buying cheaper seats for Mon./Tues. games are fair weather Sox fans or even Cub fans who need an excuse to come out.

I'm certainly not saying you fall in that category but it's not all budget minded Sox fans that show up for cheap tickets.

I also find it funny how many drunks there are. So I understand it a lot of these people want cheap tickets but they also pay $7 a beer to get loaded.


Bob

I agree that mondays and tuesdays attract a lot of drunks, which is bad. I would think that $5 Weekday UD tix would not attract as many drunks, as opposed to poor/cheap sox fans. I do think the "speacialness" of the mondays and tuesdays does serve to attract losers.

gosox41
04-07-2005, 01:20 PM
I agree that mondays and tuesdays attract a lot of drunks, which is bad. I would think that $5 Weekday UD tix would not attract as many drunks, as opposed to poor/cheap sox fans. I do think the "speacialness" of the mondays and tuesdays does serve to attract losers.

I'd love to see the UD sold out more often. Of course the risk is that if prices are lowered to $5 like you suggest and no one shows then it's just more fodder for the media to rip the team and the ballpark as being 'uncool' to non-diehard Sox fans.


Bob

mweflen
04-07-2005, 01:46 PM
bob,

you have a point, but eh, screw the media and the uneducated baseball morons of the city. they can all bleat and whine about the flubbies while I go to 50 games for $5 apiece.

Fenway
04-26-2005, 03:58 PM
bob,

you have a point, but eh, screw the media and the uneducated baseball morons of the city. they can all bleat and whine about the flubbies while I go to 50 games for $5 apiece.

Obviously between the official minor leagues and the indies, fans in many MLB markets can see good baseball on the cheap

A Boston example

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Graphic/2005/04/26/1114522381_9278.gif

gobears1987
04-26-2005, 04:01 PM
:reinsy
What? All I'm saying is there's a lot of that Beantown cash floating around and I just wanna get my hands on some of it. It's just good business.

I agree with JR's idea here. Lets suck the East coast fans dry for the good of our team in the off-season. He doesn't raise prices for division rivals, only the teams that travel well. It's a good idea and we will reap the rewards.