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Bucktown
04-05-2005, 05:01 PM
Well, after two years of regretting our closer trade we can finally put that behind us. Even thought Foulke has been stellar, I still prefer Shingo. Given that Foulke posted an L in his first appearance that may be an indication of the kind of year he will have.

Is there anyone on this board that would rather have Foulke than Shingo?

Jjav829
04-05-2005, 05:02 PM
Well, after two years of regretting our closer trade we can finally put that behind us. Even thought Foulke has been stellar, I still prefer Shingo. Given that Foulke posted an L in his first appearance that may be an indication of the kind of year he will have.

Is there anyone on this board that would rather have Foulke than Shingo?

Ummm, yes. And I think this will be a runaway in favor of Foulke.

anewman35
04-05-2005, 05:03 PM
Well, after two years of regretting our closer trade we can finally put that behind us. Even thought Foulke has been stellar, I still prefer Shingo. Given that Foulke posted an L in his first appearance that may be an indication of the kind of year he will have.

Is there anyone on this board that would rather have Foulke than Shingo?

It's really a moot point now, since even if we hadn't traded him the chances are very good that we wouldn't have Foulke anyway.

gobears1987
04-05-2005, 05:04 PM
I'll take Shingo any day. Foulke was a good closer for us, but he still blew too many key games. Shingo is now 20/21 with the White Sox. I love Keith Foulke, but even he can't do that.

WikdChiSoxFan
04-05-2005, 05:08 PM
How come Billy Koch isn't in the running?

D. TODD
04-05-2005, 05:08 PM
20 for 21 in save opportunities is about as good as you can get. Now, on paper Foulke does look to be a stronger option, but until Shingo proves otherwise I am more then happy to have him as our closer.

Rocky Soprano
04-05-2005, 05:09 PM
If I recall correctly Foulke saved or at least closed out the biggest game possible. I like Shingo, but until he does the same, I'll take Keith!

gobears1987
04-05-2005, 05:13 PM
If I recall correctly Foulke saved or at least closed out the biggest game possible. I like Shingo, but until he does the same, I'll take Keith!
When Foulke was on the Southside, he blew too many games to get that opportunity with the Sox. Now I'm not saying not making the playoffs in 2001 and 2002 were his fault, it wasn't. I'm saying that he had success, but he wasn't having enough to have a big impact. Shingo is having a big impact on this team. WHen he enters a game, you can feel secure that he won't blow a 3 run lead as Foulke did all too often.

HomeFish
04-05-2005, 05:29 PM
Foulke post-trade is a far better player than the one that pitched for the Sox in the early 2000's. In my mind, they might as well be different people; night and day.

That said, Shingo is not a real closer, and I would love to have a better option there. But Shingo is better than the Foulke we had, and light-years better than Koch.

batmanZoSo
04-05-2005, 05:35 PM
When Foulke was on the Southside, he blew too many games to get that opportunity with the Sox. Now I'm not saying not making the playoffs in 2001 and 2002 were his fault, it wasn't. I'm saying that he had success, but he wasn't having enough to have a big impact. Shingo is having a big impact on this team. WHen he enters a game, you can feel secure that he won't blow a 3 run lead as Foulke did all too often.

I never felt safe with that guy. He did help us win a lot of games though, just a statement. Keith never had the stones, he always seemed scared to close out the really big games. Average fastball, great changeup, token breaking pitch (I think). If I have a 1 run lead in Game 7, I'm going with Shingo.

Ol' No. 2
04-05-2005, 05:36 PM
Foulke post-trade is a far better player than the one that pitched for the Sox in the early 2000's. In my mind, they might as well be different people; night and day.

That said, Shingo is not a real closer, and I would love to have a better option there. But Shingo is better than the Foulke we had, and light-years better than Koch.And what, exactly, is a real closer?

Palehose13
04-05-2005, 05:40 PM
And what, exactly, is a real closer?

Foulke with his blinding fastball... :wink:

twsoxfan5
04-05-2005, 05:41 PM
And what, exactly, is a real closer?

Exactly: If Shingo is not considered a real closer than who is. He should continue to get the credit that he is due until he proves otherwise. I was at the game he blew last year and it was on a cheap line drive homerun. Other than that he has been great. I am not going to say one is better than the other b/c it is like comparing apples and oranges, but I am happy with what Shingo is doing.

batmanZoSo
04-05-2005, 05:43 PM
Foulke with his blinding fastball... :wink:

Foulke is Shingo with a quicker changeup.

SpammySosa
04-05-2005, 05:43 PM
Foulke post-trade is a far better player than the one that pitched for the Sox in the early 2000's. In my mind, they might as well be different people; night and day.

That said, Shingo is not a real closer, and I would love to have a better option there. But Shingo is better than the Foulke we had, and light-years better than Koch.

:?: That is why he is Japan's all-time saves leader.

pudge
04-05-2005, 05:49 PM
Foulke got the loss after pitching one full inning today. He has always stuggled beyond an inning. I'm fine with Shingo, but it doesn't make up for the fact that we suffered with Koch for too long.

ChiSox7
04-05-2005, 05:50 PM
And what, exactly, is a real closer?

Well, obviously a real closer is somebody who saves 100% of their saves and not only 95% like Shingo.

HomeFish
04-05-2005, 05:56 PM
Shingo is just such a fragile pitcher. He depends so much on control, trickery, and other things that can simply be off some days. If just one thing goes wrong, he's going to get pounded.

I don't feel secure when Shingo goes on the mound. I would feel much more secure if we had a guy that was throwing heat out there, a guy that could get away with not being 100% on because he'd be just that overpowering. A guy that struck batters out rather than put balls into play, where errors could be committed on them.

Ol' No. 2
04-05-2005, 05:59 PM
Shingo is just such a fragile pitcher. He depends so much on control, trickery, and other things that can simply be off some days. If just one thing goes wrong, he's going to get pounded.

I don't feel secure when Shingo goes on the mound. I would feel much more secure if we had a guy that was throwing heat out there, a guy that could get away with not being 100% on because he'd be just that overpowering. A guy that struck batters out rather than put balls into play, where errors could be committed on them.:bkoch: You mean someone like me.

SABRSox
04-05-2005, 06:00 PM
Shingo is just such a fragile pitcher. He depends so much on control, trickery, and other things that can simply be off some days. If just one thing goes wrong, he's going to get pounded.

I don't feel secure when Shingo goes on the mound. I would feel much more secure if we had a guy that was throwing heat out there, a guy that could get away with not being 100% on because he'd be just that overpowering. A guy that struck batters out rather than put balls into play, where errors could be committed on them.

Like Kyle Farnsworth for the Cubs, right? That guy throws harder than anybody. What a great closer he was.

HomeFish
04-05-2005, 06:00 PM
:bkoch: You mean someone like me.

Switch that to an A's hat and I will respond in the affirmative.

Koch's velocity declined when he got here, and he was never the sort of real closer I described while with us.

spiffie
04-05-2005, 06:00 PM
Damn you Kenny for not getting us Kyle Farnsworth, a REAL closer!

Banix12
04-05-2005, 06:02 PM
In the long run I would probably want Foulke, just because he is a younger pitcher and will probably have a much longer Major league career than Shingo will. Right now I would probably have to take Shingo.

Neither Shingo or Foulke have dynamite fastballs and both live and die by their changeup. While Foulke does have an amazing changeup, Shingo's changeup is possibly more impressive than Foulke's because he can change speeds at will and can get away with a 40 mph drop from 90 mph to 50 mph, as well as all speeds in between.

The only advantage to Foulke is I think he is a little better a spotting his fastball than Shingo, who has his moments of wildness.

So I like Shingo right now, but I'm not getting too attached since I have no idea how much longer he can last in the league at his age.

Ol' No. 2
04-05-2005, 06:06 PM
Switch that to an A's hat and I will respond in the affirmative.

Koch's velocity declined when he got here, and he was never the sort of real closer I described while with us.Koch hit 96 mph quite often when he was with the Sox. That's faster than Foulke ever threw. Too much has been made of the small loss in velocity. There are tons of very successful closers who never had that kind of velocity. Most of the saves leaders from last year can't throw that hard.

maurice
04-05-2005, 06:06 PM
Wow. I thought the Reed / Olivo thing was beating a dead horse, but this is ridiculous.

Shingo was great for us last year. With any luck, he'll give us a couple more good but low-inning seasons before retiring.

Foulke, OTOH, has been one of the best closers in MLB for a long time. Foulke posted a series of sub-3 ERAs with lots of innings and high save percentages in the AL during the midst of the steroid era, while Shingo was pitching to 160 lb. schlubs in Japan.

Shingo's great, and I'm happy he's on our club . . . but if you pick him over Foulke, your taking a 1989 Honda over a 2005 Cadillac.

elrod
04-05-2005, 06:07 PM
The ultimate gas closer is Armando Benitez. And his regular season numbers are fantastic. But there are few pitchers who have blown bigger games than he has. I personally witnessed two of them in Baltimore in 1997. I will never forgive him for blowing Game One of the 2000 World Series either.

Jjav829
04-05-2005, 06:12 PM
Wow. I thought the Reed / Olivo thing was beating a dead horse, but this is ridiculous.

Shingo was great for us last year. With any luck, he'll give us a couple more good but low-inning seasons before retiring.

Foulke, OTOH, has been one of the best closers in MLB for a long time. Foulke posted a series of sub-3 ERAs with lots of innings and high save percentages in the AL during the midst of the steroid era, while Shingo was pitching to 160 lb. schlubs in Japan.

Shingo's great, and I'm happy he's on our club . . . but if you pick him over Foulke, your taking a 1989 Honda over a 2005 Cadillac.

Probably the best post of this thread. Shingo has been great for us. But he's just no Keith Foulke. I know everyone here is biased because Shingo is on the Sox now and there are some bad memories of Foulke. But that still doesn't change the fact that Keith Foulke is one of the 6 or 7 best closers around. Someone said earlier that Shingo couldn't go 20-21. Well, I'd like to see Shingo go 42-45 like Foulke did in 2001. Or 43-48 like he did in 2003. Shingo is good, but Keith Foulke is just on a different level right now.

And basing this thread on the fact that Foulke blew the game in his first appearance of the year? Come on. Does that mean we should be debating whether Shingo is better than Rivera. Ditto for Trevor Hoffman.

SOX ADDICT '73
04-05-2005, 06:17 PM
IIRC, all Foulke did while he was here was complain that he wasn't a starter. This team is currently made up of players who know and accept their roles (even Willie has gotten down from the ledge). Foulke's assessment of his own abilities may have changed by now (he's done nothing but close since he left), but I'll still take Shingo over a whiner who isn't satisfied with one of the premier positions in baseball.

ChiSox7
04-05-2005, 06:19 PM
Probably the best post of this thread. Shingo has been great for us. But he's just no Keith Foulke. I know everyone here is biased because Shingo is on the Sox now and there are some bad memories of Foulke. But that still doesn't change the fact that Keith Foulke is one of the 6 or 7 best closers around. Someone said earlier that Shingo couldn't go 20-21. Well, I'd like to see Shingo go 42-45 like Foulke did in 2001. Or 43-48 like he did in 2003. Shingo is good, but Keith Foulke is just on a different level right now.

And basing this thread on the fact that Foulke blew the game in his first appearance of the year? Come on. Does that mean we should be debating whether Shingo is better than Rivera. Ditto for Trevor Hoffman.

I agree with what you are saying, but I'm not so sure that the two can even be compared right now, results wise. Really only stuff wise. Shingo hasn't done it long enough here in the MLB. This year, he will have hte chance to have years like Foulke has had. What happens if he saves 40-43 this year and then has a career save percentage of 94%. THen you can start comparing them results wise, because Shingo's numbers would speak so loudly.

RIght now though, they are both very good and we would be lucky to have either one of them. They are very similar pitchers with Foulke having a little bit more on his fastball, but Shingo having 2 or 3 different changeups and much more to go to when he changes speeds. Anywhere from the 40's to the 80's/

Basing it on one day, Foulke's loss today, is kinda rediculous though.

batmanZoSo
04-05-2005, 06:21 PM
Shingo is just such a fragile pitcher. He depends so much on control, trickery, and other things that can simply be off some days. If just one thing goes wrong, he's going to get pounded.

I don't feel secure when Shingo goes on the mound. I would feel much more secure if we had a guy that was throwing heat out there, a guy that could get away with not being 100% on because he'd be just that overpowering. A guy that struck batters out rather than put balls into play, where errors could be committed on them.


Shingo's got that gimmicky pitch, but he's mentally tough and good under the pressure. That's the most important thing for a closer. You don't need a 99 mph fastball or a devastating splitter, that's obvious with just the two closers in question here. I'll show you several guys who threw no harder than 90, 91 and had great success, but you couldn't show me one successful closer who didn't have that mental toughness. Granted, it does take at least one tough pitch and simple execution to be a closer, so it isn't just the mentally tough who can close. There are plenty of mentally tough pitchers who are just middle relievers because they don't have an out pitch. But if you ask me, makeup is a lot more important than velocity and Shingo just has it.

Jjav829
04-05-2005, 06:25 PM
I agree with what you are saying, but I'm not so sure that the two can even be compared right now, results wise. Really only stuff wise. Shingo hasn't done it long enough here in the MLB. This year, he will have hte chance to have years like Foulke has had. What happens if he saves 40-43 this year and then has a career save percentage of 94%. THen you can start comparing them results wise, because Shingo's numbers would speak so loudly.

RIght now though, they are both very good and we would be lucky to have either one of them. They are very similar pitchers with Foulke having a little bit more on his fastball, but Shingo having 2 or 3 different changeups and much more to go to when he changes speeds. Anywhere from the 40's to the 80's/

Basing it on one day, Foulke's loss today, is kinda rediculous though.

I think that's sort of the point some of us are making. If Shingo continues his save percentage, then he certainly has to be talked about as a top closer. But until he proves that, Foulke is the better closer. He's shown he can do it for a full season and on the biggest possible stage. We'll see what Shingo does over a full year. But right now Foulke is the better choice.

SABRSox
04-05-2005, 06:37 PM
I think the big thing is consistency. That is so hard to find in closers, for whatever reason. The best ones are the ones that can get you 30+ saves every year, guys like Rivera, etc.
I think Foulke is in that group too, although his name doesn't have the aura that Rivera's does, but I'd bet that will change if he stays in Boston long enough. As far as Shingo is concerned, I think the jury is still out on him. He is the all-time saves leader in Japan, and that's not something to be taken lightly. But we'll have to see how he handles this season. The hitters are sure to make an adjustment to him. If he adjusts back, he might turn out to be one of those elite guys.

And I don't care how hard he throws. Outs are outs, whether they come on a 94mph fastball or a 50mph frisbee.

wsbaseball9
04-05-2005, 06:43 PM
i remember shingo throwing a 95 mph fastball that stunned me then he threw a 94 and then a frisbee for the SO

i like shingo not just based on that single AB but i think he just has nastier stuff and is smarter

soxtalker
04-05-2005, 06:48 PM
Shingo's had a phenomenal record with us, but I suspect that there will always be a segment of the Sox fans that will be expecting the opponents to "figure him out" in the next game. He's just so different than almost any other closer. But he's been incredibly effective and consistent.

The only concern I've had has more to do with the ball park. It is more of a HR park compared to when Foulke was here. Fly balls can turn into HR; SO's don't. But I'll take the consistency of Shingo.

na_na_na_na
04-05-2005, 07:19 PM
I'm sick of people who complain that Shingo's frisbee is a gimmick and will eventually stop working.


First, the most a batter is going to see it is 3 times a game(assuming an 8 pitch ab and that shingo goes with it that often, unlikely). Assuming that the odds of a batter facing the closer is 1/3 per game and about 20 games against the same team(in division) that's 30 frisbees spread over the course of 6 months. I find it hard to believe people will "figure it out" considering this frequency.

Second, the knuckleball was a gimmick, the curve was a gimmick, the slider was a gimmick, and the spitter was a gimmick that was so effective they had to ban it. What empirical evidence do you have that says a frisbee will be any less effective over time than these pitches.

Because I have years of data from Japan that it will be.

voodoochile
04-05-2005, 07:24 PM
Shingo is just such a fragile pitcher. He depends so much on control, trickery, and other things that can simply be off some days. If just one thing goes wrong, he's going to get pounded.

I don't feel secure when Shingo goes on the mound. I would feel much more secure if we had a guy that was throwing heat out there, a guy that could get away with not being 100% on because he'd be just that overpowering. A guy that struck batters out rather than put balls into play, where errors could be committed on them.

Do you EVER say ANYTHING good about ANYONE on the Sox?

batmanZoSo
04-05-2005, 07:29 PM
I'm sick of people who complain that Shingo's frisbee is a gimmick and will eventually stop working.


First, the most a batter is going to see it is 3 times a game(assuming an 8 pitch ab and that shingo goes with it that often, unlikely). Assuming that the odds of a batter facing the closer is 1/3 per game and about 20 games against the same team(in division) that's 30 frisbees spread over the course of 6 months. I find it hard to believe people will "figure it out" considering this frequency.

Second, the knuckleball was a gimmick, the curve was a gimmick, the slider was a gimmick, and the spitter was a gimmick that was so effective they had to ban it. What empirical evidence do you have that says a frisbee will be any less effective over time than these pitches.

Because I have years of data from Japan that it will be.

I call it a gimmick for lack of a better word, but it's one that works. And no one will ever "figure out" how to hit a 55 mph pitch after an 88 mph pitch with any regularity if they don't suspect it's coming. Hell, by now they do expect it but they still can't hit it.

Lip Man 1
04-05-2005, 07:30 PM
I don't recall Foulke 'complaining' about starting after the first year or two. I know that at times the media brought the question up to Keith when Sox starters were having trouble (i.e. Gary Glover) or dropping like flies due to injuries. Big difference between someone being asked to comment and volunteering a comment.

Lip

voodoochile
04-05-2005, 07:33 PM
I don't recall Foulke 'complaining' about starting after the first year or two. I know that at times the media brought the question up to Keith when Sox starters were having trouble (i.e. Gary Glover) or dropping like flies due to injuries. Big difference between someone being asked to comment and volunteering a comment.

Lip

Where was this understanding when JR was stuck on C&S yesterday?

Paulwny
04-05-2005, 07:34 PM
I don't recall Foulke 'complaining' about starting after the first year or two.
Lip

It finally dawned on him that he was a pretty good closer who was about the reap the benefits $$$.

SoxWillWin
04-05-2005, 07:36 PM
Call me wierd, but didn't shingo just nail down our firts win of the season???? Now a lot of people love to judge by past performance so lets see. Shingo is the all time saves leader in Japan. He converted 20 out of 21 saves. so if his past record dictates future performance (as so many have talked about for people like Joe Crede) We have a lights out closer. I'd think we could all be a little less pessimistic. After all we are currently undefeated.

santo=dorf
04-05-2005, 07:49 PM
Switch that to an A's hat and I will respond in the affirmative.

Koch's velocity declined when he got here, and he was never the sort of real closer I described while with us.
2003 Koch (his best year): 3.27 ERA, 44/50 SV/OPP, 88%, 1.27 WHIP, .622 OPS against, 93.2 IP, 46 BB's ,93 K's, 102 GO, 81 AO, 73 H, 5 WP.

2004 Shingo: 2.31 ERA, 19/20 SV/OPP, 95%, .98 WHIP, .550 OPS against, 62.1 IP, 21 BB, 50 K's, 61 GO, 75 AO, 40 H, 1 WP.

In case you can't tell Shingo had a better WHIP, ERA, SV % conversion, a much less OPS against, and showed more control than Botch.

Putting the numbers together, Shingo put the ball in play an average of 2.82 times per inning. (GO+AO+H/IP)

Koch put the ball into play an average of 2.75 times per inning. That's not a big enough difference to make up for a WHIP that is .29 higher, and OPS against that is 72 points higher, a lower save percentage, and ERA that is 1.06 higher despite not playing in the best hitter's park in the AL.

Try harder next time :troll :dtroll:

Lip Man 1
04-05-2005, 07:51 PM
Voodoo:

Because I don't think their questions were either inappropriate or said in a confrontational manner. Also remember I stated yesterday that Uncle Jerry could have simply said 'I'd rather not get into that..' and kept some class and dignity.

Instead he forces a confrontation embarassing not only himself but more importantly, the organization that he runs. CEO's of million dollar companies are not supposed to act like 5th graders.

Lip

mealfred13
04-05-2005, 08:04 PM
Call it a gimmick or whatever you want, but even if players DO "figure out" the frisbee, it's not like they're gonna drive the ball out of the park. It's coming in at 45-55 mph, breaking like a mother effer, and they're gonna have to reach to put the bat on it. They'll be lucky if they ground out to short, or in the best case scenario drop one over the second baseman's head.

That notwithstanding, Shingo has shown he has an excellent ability to mix up his pitches and get batters out on both change-change-FB sequences and FB-FB-change/frisbee sequences, and everything in between. He knows what's he's doing out there, he keeps hitters off balance, and 20 out of 21 times he makes them look like crap.

Can we officially kill this thread now? Who cares what Foulke is doing. Why don't we start a thread to compare Shingo to Bobby Thigpen while we're at it? What's the point?

Fake Chet Lemon
04-05-2005, 09:43 PM
Let's not forget the key element of money. If we had Keith instead of Shingo we probably wouldn't have Iguchi and/or AJ on the team. 200posts......Yes.

Bucktown
04-06-2005, 12:07 AM
Probably the best post of this thread. Shingo has been great for us. But he's just no Keith Foulke. I know everyone here is biased because Shingo is on the Sox now and there are some bad memories of Foulke. But that still doesn't change the fact that Keith Foulke is one of the 6 or 7 best closers around. Someone said earlier that Shingo couldn't go 20-21. Well, I'd like to see Shingo go 42-45 like Foulke did in 2001. Or 43-48 like he did in 2003. Shingo is good, but Keith Foulke is just on a different level right now.
To paraphrase Hawk...Don't tell me how many you saved, tell me when you saved them. Foulke choked at the worst possible moments in his last two seasons here.

SOX ADDICT '73
04-06-2005, 12:43 AM
I don't recall Foulke 'complaining' about starting after the first year or two. I know that at times the media brought the question up to Keith when Sox starters were having trouble (i.e. Gary Glover) or dropping like flies due to injuries. Big difference between someone being asked to comment and volunteering a comment.

Lip
Whether the comments were prompted by the media or volunteered by Foulke, I remember hearing them as recently as the 2002 Spring Training. Imagine the activity on WSI this Spring (not to mention the damage to clubhouse chemistry) if Paul Konerko had been quoted as saying,

"Well, first base if okay, I guess, but I won't be truly happy unless I'm playing center field."

Would it have mattered whether the comment was a response to a reporter's question or volunteered by Paulie?

Tragg
04-06-2005, 01:32 AM
Foulke post-trade is a far better player than the one that pitched for the Sox in the early 2000's. In my mind, they might as well be different people; night and day.

That said, Shingo is not a real closer, and I would love to have a better option there. But Shingo is better than the Foulke we had, and light-years better than Koch.

Why isn't he a "Real" closer?
That lablel has been put on Foulke - because Foulkie, like Shingo, relies on offspeed stuff - "junk" if you will; Foulke can't throw it by anyone.

As for Foulke choking, his "chokes" were on balls of the cement in the twinkie dome. He would have carded saves in a "real" stadium.

jabrch
04-06-2005, 01:40 AM
Foulke has been a fantastic closer for Boston - that's great. But he was absolutely DONE in Chicago. Manuel had no faith in him. Williams had no faith in him. His teammates had no faith in him. His performance didn't warrant anyone having faith in him. Now in the end, we didn't get the better end of that deal - we all know that. But Foulke was gone either way.

Looking forward, I don't even care to debate Foulke vs Shingo since Foulke isn't coming back, and Shingo has been darn near perfect since closing. The best of those two for us is CLEARLY Shingo, since the odds are extremly long that Foulke would ever be the Sox closer again.

owensmouth
04-06-2005, 01:51 AM
:?: That is why he is Japan's all-time saves leader.

Not anymore.

na_na_na_na
04-06-2005, 10:20 AM
Foulke looked money in that save against the yankees last night, with the way jeter took him deep into the night and all.


:threadblows:

jabrch
04-06-2005, 10:30 AM
If just one thing goes wrong, he's going to get pounded.



Same with EVERY OTHER PITCHER IN BASEBALL.

HebrewHammer
04-06-2005, 11:53 AM
Shingo is just such a fragile pitcher. He depends so much on control, trickery, and other things that can simply be off some days. If just one thing goes wrong, he's going to get pounded.

I don't feel secure when Shingo goes on the mound. I would feel much more secure if we had a guy that was throwing heat out there, a guy that could get away with not being 100% on because he'd be just that overpowering. A guy that struck batters out rather than put balls into play, where errors could be committed on them.

I've always found it bizarre that you would rather be proven right than see the White Sox succeed.

BRDSR
04-06-2005, 11:58 AM
:?: That is why he is Japan's all-time saves leader.

I'm not really sure why this is in teal. He is Japan's all-time saves leader and this should put to rest any argument that he's not a real closer. If yout hink he's not a real closer, you'll have to make the argument that the Japan League is not a real league, which would be hard to do because its the next most talented league to MLB.

SoxWillWin
04-06-2005, 12:16 PM
Here we go again

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2628

wdelaney72
04-06-2005, 01:05 PM
:threadsucks

Shingo is our closer. We have no "closing situation". Foulke went away how long ago??? God, get over it.

Jurr
04-06-2005, 01:09 PM
I think that Shingo is doing a great job, though I see Vizcaino closing for the Sox by the end of the season. It's just a hunch. I hope I'm wrong, but I've got a feeling. Luis' power sinker and fastball would be great for a closer, and I'm a little worried about Shingo over the course of an ENTIRE season. Location is going to determine if Shingo lasts the year as the closer. Last season, any time he wouldn't locate, the opposing team would lay off the "movement" pitches and wait for something straighter and faster to cream. It made for a number of close saves (nailbiters) and that one blown save. Could it get worse over a full season?

I definitely give Shingo credit and the benefit of the doubt--he's a great, PROVEN (everybody's favorite word) relief pitcher. I hope he does hold up, though I think Luis Vizcaino is going to be the guy before the year's up.

maurice
04-06-2005, 03:09 PM
Why should anybody give a crap about Hawk or Jerry Manuel's opinion on a player's performance? While we're discussing the opinions of incompetent managers / general managers, why doesn't somebody go and ask Terry Bevington what he thinks?

Foulke's performance for the Sox was consistently outstanding. In his years here, he had approximately one bad month. That's absurdly good. Shingo had a bad month last season too. Mariano Rivera is one of the best closers in history but, like every other successful closer, Rivera has blown many big saves. Eckersly famously blew a save in the World Series. Quick, go get a cross and some nails.

This crap thread belongs in What's the Score, next to the Garcia trade thread.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 05:59 PM
I think that Shingo is doing a great job, though I see Vizcaino closing for the Sox by the end of the season. It's just a hunch. I hope I'm wrong, but I've got a feeling. Luis' power sinker and fastball would be great for a closer, and I'm a little worried about Shingo over the course of an ENTIRE season. Location is going to determine if Shingo lasts the year as the closer. Last season, any time he wouldn't locate, the opposing team would lay off the "movement" pitches and wait for something straighter and faster to cream. It made for a number of close saves (nailbiters) and that one blown save. Could it get worse over a full season?

I definitely give Shingo credit and the benefit of the doubt--he's a great, PROVEN (everybody's favorite word) relief pitcher. I hope he does hold up, though I think Luis Vizcaino is going to be the guy before the year's up.

Boy...it looks like prophecy.

Baby Fisk
04-07-2005, 06:03 PM
It's kind of nifty, the irony that Bucktown got a time out just when this thread came to fruition. :rolleyes:

PAPChiSox729
04-07-2005, 06:17 PM
I definitely give Shingo credit and the benefit of the doubt--he's a great, PROVEN (everybody's favorite word) relief pitcher. I hope he does hold up, though I think Luis Vizcaino is going to be the guy before the year's up.

you may get eaten alive for saying that after today's game. But... I am not going to let this one bad outing by Shingo sway me. I still bring him in to close. Now if he really does break down, then I would rather give the ball to Hermanson. Vizcaino has great stuff, but he seems to be a little too "raw" to close.

HomeFish
04-07-2005, 06:22 PM
I've always found it bizarre that you would rather be proven right than see the White Sox succeed.

Of all the baseless things people say about me here, this is the one I object to most.

Where have I shown such a tendency? Where have I ever gone "Told you so!" or something like that?

Never. When the Sox lose, when they do poorly, it hurts me, it hurts me more than is healthy, just like it does fir most fans. Likewise, when they win, I feel more joy than anyone should from a game.

Baby Fisk
04-07-2005, 06:26 PM
Of all the baseless things people say about me here, this is the one I object to most.

Where have I shown such a tendency? Where have I ever gone "Told you so!" or something like that?

Never. When the Sox lose, when they do poorly, it hurts me, it hurts me more than is healthy, just like it does fir most fans. Likewise, when they win, I feel more joy than anyone should from a game.
Quit whining troll. If you don't realize how much you antagonize people with your doomsday Cubbie garbage, you really don't have a clue.

Jurr
04-07-2005, 06:28 PM
you may get eaten alive for saying that after today's game. But... I am not going to let this one bad outing by Shingo sway me. I still bring him in to close. Now if he really does break down, then I would rather give the ball to Hermanson. Vizcaino has great stuff, but he seems to be a little too "raw" to close.
I said that two or three days ago.....I still think Shingo can bounce back, but I have worries about his ability over an entire season.

whitesoxfan1986
04-07-2005, 07:09 PM
actually shingo blew a save last year too so he is really 20/22 in save opportunities. I hope this doesn't happen a lot this year. besides many really good closers blew saves this week. hoffman and rivera got rocked the other day and they are considered a couple of the best in the game. what phases me is that last year ugy urbina was available at the beginning of the season and we didnt pick him up. he was there for the taking, is a good friend of ozzie, and could be had for nothing despite being lights-out for the marlins during the playoffs. maybe we can still get him if he complains about not closing in detroit.:?:

SpammySosa
04-07-2005, 07:17 PM
I'm not really sure why this is in teal. He is Japan's all-time saves leader and this should put to rest any argument that he's not a real closer. If yout hink he's not a real closer, you'll have to make the argument that the Japan League is not a real league, which would be hard to do because its the next most talented league to MLB.

My post in teal was in reference to TrollFish's accusation that Shingo isn't a real closer.I was making the point that if he isn't a real closer,then why is he Japan's all-time saves leader.

HebrewHammer
04-08-2005, 10:15 AM
Of all the baseless things people say about me here, this is the one I object to most.

Where have I shown such a tendency? Where have I ever gone "Told you so!" or something like that?

Never. When the Sox lose, when they do poorly, it hurts me, it hurts me more than is healthy, just like it does fir most fans. Likewise, when they win, I feel more joy than anyone should from a game.

:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

I guess the truth hurts.

When have you said I told you so? or something like that? Only as recently as yesterday!

How bad does that Gload for Konerko move look now as well?

:dtroll:

SSN721
04-08-2005, 11:27 AM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

I guess the truth hurts.

When have you said I told you so? or something like that? Only as recently as yesterday!


Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeFish
How bad does that Gload for Konerko move look now as well?



:dtroll:


Its not an, "I told you so" Seems like constructive criticism and analyzation of the team to me. You would think HomeFish is on the BT crew, sounds like some of the ridiculous comments Brantley and Bowa were making last night on the show.

jvoboogie
04-10-2005, 01:29 AM
Wow, lot of bad blood in this thread. Before May I'll bet u see more of a closer by committee. Shingo is great but before long I think it might go to Hermannson.

SluggersAway
04-10-2005, 01:58 AM
One thing we have to consider is AJ's role in calling the games. Folks who have dealt with him in the past don't have many kind things to say. Although he hasn't done too much to call his abilities into question, you can't discount AJ's contribution in Shingo's meltdown. All I saw was fastballs coming from Shingo at exactly the wrong time. Hopefully, this is just a case of not knowing the strengths of the pitcher and AJ will sink with Shingo or Shingo will get the confidence to call him off when he knows he has the right pitch in mind to get the out.

Other than that, our bull pen is looking good. Hermanson is quite solid and I'm not nervous at all when Shingo enters games as long as he doesn't have to rely on his fastball, since we all know that is the last pitch anyone would call his killer.

Soxfest
04-10-2005, 01:57 PM
Foulke in a landslide.

tstrike2000
04-11-2005, 04:57 PM
I like Shingo too as closer because I think he can get the job done with his ability to change speeds. Unfortunately, he doesn't have much of a margin for error because we've had to live through Billy Koch.

S.S. Lumber Yard
04-11-2005, 05:30 PM
The Indians always hit Shingo hard. 2-1, do you send Garcia out there to finish off the Complete game or do you send Shingo in there?