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View Full Version : KW Rated One of Baseball's Worst GM's


crector
04-04-2005, 06:38 AM
http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050403/SPORTS01/504030311/1108/SPORTS01




Ken Williams, Chicago White Sox:

All that offense and yet he can't get pitching to Chicago. No, Jose Contreras doesn't count.

munchman33
04-04-2005, 07:30 AM
The day I start getting my baseball analysis from the Journal of Westchester, Rockland, and Putnam is the day that I, well, figure out where exactly Westchester, Rockland, and Putnam are.

ChiWhiteSox1337
04-04-2005, 09:07 AM
:rolleyes:
I guess Freddy Garcia doesn't count either? Or the fact that the Sox signed El Duque to a rather cheap contract, compared to most of the other SP FA signings during the offseason(Ones I'm thinking of are mainly Jaret Wright, Eric Milton, Corey Lidle, Kris Benson, and Paul Wilson)

zach074
04-04-2005, 09:18 AM
I completely disagree with this article, he has done anything and everything he could to get a good team on the field. KW is "DA Man."

34 Inch Stick
04-04-2005, 09:28 AM
I would not rate him one of the worst, but there is certainly room for improvement. The problem was that JR hired him with no experience in some critical areas for a GM. He was bad in the beginning, but I have seen real progression. I expect that in 5 more years he will be an excellent GM.

The other side of me says that this is frickin Chicago and it should not be the training ground for MLB. That, however, is not not KW's fault. It is JR's.

infohawk
04-04-2005, 10:14 AM
If Dan Dombrowski gets ripped for signing Magglio to a long-term contract, shouldn't Kenny be credited for letting him go?

faneidde
04-04-2005, 10:44 AM
If Dan Dombrowski gets ripped for signing Magglio to a long-term contract, shouldn't Kenny be credited for letting him go?
What? Hey, how about some credit for Kenny for not paying 253 million to A-Rod a few years.

Dan H
04-04-2005, 11:08 AM
I don't think the only way to evaluate a GM is by the way he doesn't spend money. How about winning a championship or two?

I don't dislike Williams, but eventually this team has to produce. And by producing I mean a World Series. Only Cub fans would accept less.

soxtalker
04-04-2005, 11:55 AM
It is obviously not a detailed analysis, but more of an impression. Given that, I think it is a reasonable article. Particularly interesting that 3 of the 10 are from our division. Probably not unreasonable considering that we've been viewed for several years as the weakest division.

The comment about pitching is also interesting. One interpretation is that they haven't paid attention to the acquisitions by KW. On the other hand, maybe the Garcia trade, etc. aren't viewed with as much enthusiasm in the rest of the country as on this board.

kingpin_rcs
04-04-2005, 11:57 AM
I am convinced that sports writters are the bottom feeders of the journalism world. They are not real journlaists. What they write about is not real. Most of them over dramatisize their stories to make themselves look more important (i.e. Robert Duval character in "The Natural").

This is especially evident in making preseason predictions. How many times has a sports writter dug up his April predictions in October to see how he did? Only the ones that were right. How many is that? Not many, in fact I can't think of any.

What were the 2000 White Sox predicted to do? The 2001 Mariners or Diamondbaks? The 2002 Angels?

It's all meaningless. Today is opening day. We are 0-0 and in a 5 way tie for first place. KW has done his job. It is now time for the guys in uniform to perform.

Stroker Ace
04-04-2005, 12:33 PM
K-Dub is one of the best GM's in MLB. He would be able to do a hell of a lot more if JR would give him more cash to work with.

Flight #24
04-04-2005, 12:46 PM
It is obviously not a detailed analysis, but more of an impression. Given that, I think it is a reasonable article. Particularly interesting that 3 of the 10 are from our division. Probably not unreasonable considering that we've been viewed for several years as the weakest division.



This is the key IMO - they're ranking GMs by success, not factoring in any constraints be it financial or anything else. There's an argument to be made for that, but IMO it's possibly more of comment on the overall organization than just the GM.

Hitmen77
04-04-2005, 01:01 PM
Seeing that the Sox have produced very little talent from their farm system in the last few years, I have to agree with ranking him in the bottom 10. The Twins and Indians are doing much better than us in terms of developing talent. After years of hyping the Sox farm system as loaded with pitching talent, the embarassing truth was revealed last year when the Sox were unable to find a 5th starter in their organization that could get anyone out in the big leagues. Kenny's been GM for 4 years now - this terrible farm system is his responsibility.

It's not all about payroll. The Twins have embarassed us for 3 years in a row with a lower payroll.

As far as trades go, there have been some good transactions, but there are real stinkers too like the Todd Ritchie or the Billy Koch deals.

balke
04-04-2005, 01:25 PM
I don't agree with this at all. Who are the top 10? Kenny may be #11-15. He plugged 7 spots that needed filling, and cut off the biggest dead weight in the offseason. He did it all on the cheap, and is putting out a contender after a crazy 04'.

There's going to be deals that blow up in your face. That's true for any GM. But on the whole, I think Kenny makes good decisions. He's also a likeable guy, and one of the coolest faces to have as a GM. He gives a great interview, and is pretty open to the public. I like having him as a GM. We just need a W.S. to start boasting him higher.


Why isn't the Dodgers GM on here? I guess cause he squeaked in and out of the first round after a horrible trade for Penny last season? Blue Jays GM? Texas' GM should be on there for creating A-rod's salary unless he's not around anymore.

Kenny needs more success, but I think he does what he can to win. We are just a team that gets big injuries, one year wonders, and the occasional head case.

santo=dorf
04-04-2005, 01:27 PM
While we are on the "writers who we never heard of bash the White Sox" topic, NY post (http://nypost.com/sports/43772.htm) says Ozzie Guillen is the second worst manager in the MLB.

2. Ozzie Guillen, White Sox
Flighty, mouthy and espouses a go-go style that is more 1959 than 2005.

and of course nothing important happened for the White Sox in 1959. :rolleyes:

chaz171
04-04-2005, 01:27 PM
In Recent History there was four years in a row that provided the Sox with Farm talent. McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, and Fernandez.

Karkovice Spent nearly 10 years in the Minors. Before him, Joel Skinner was the "heir" to Fisk's five sided plate. Skinner: all arm, no Stick.

Rodney Bolton, Bob Fallon, Kevin Hickey, Ross Bumgarten, Bruce Tanner, Al Jones, Lorenzo Grey, Joe Desa, Scott Ruffcorn, Kenny Williams, Francisco Barrios, Greg Hibbard, Bill Long, Shawn Hillegas, Steve Rosenberg, Scott Radinsky, Melido Perez, Kip Wells, Joe Borchard, John Cangelosi, Salome Barojas, Juan Agosto, Ken Kravec.. Heck I can go on.....

Minor League Talent is something that should be traded for real talent. Like When Jon Rausch Struck out 11 South African Hitters in 2000, That was his peak value... We should have dealt him then.

Judging by the past history of "Can't Miss prospects", We cannot Condemn Kenneth Williams for all of these minor league washouts......

MeanFish
04-04-2005, 01:29 PM
In Recent History there was four years in a row that provided the Sox with Farm talent. McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, and Fernandez.

Karkovice Spent nearly 10 years in the Minors. Before him, Joel Skinner was the "heir" to Fisk's five sided plate. Skinner: all arm, no Stick.

Rodney Bolton, Bob Fallon, Kevin Hickey, Ross Bumgarten, Bruce Tanner, Al Jones, Lorenzo Grey, Joe Desa, Scott Ruffcorn, Kenny Williams, Francisco Barrios, Greg Hibbard, Bill Long, Shawn Hillegas, Steve Rosenberg, Scott Radinsky, Melido Perez, Kip Wells, Joe Borchard, John Cangelosi, Salome Barojas, Juan Agosto, Ken Kravec.. Heck I can go on.....

Minor League Talent is something that should be traded for real talent. Like When Jon Rausch Struck out 11 South African Hitters in 2000, That was his peak value... We should have dealt him then.

Judging by the past history of "Can't Miss prospects", We cannot Condemn Kenneth Williams for all of these minor league washouts......

Can we condemn him for being one?

doublem23
04-04-2005, 01:33 PM
and of course nothing important happened for the White Sox in 1959. :rolleyes:

They're still bitter. :tongue:

MisterB
04-04-2005, 01:47 PM
Hmm...

If Williams is one of the worst GM's and Ozzie's the second worst manager, 1) how on earth did the Sox finish above .500 last year; and 2) what does that say about the 14 ML teams that had a worse record than the Sox last season? :?:

:bs:

JRIG
04-04-2005, 01:51 PM
Why isn't the Dodgers GM on here? I guess cause he squeaked in and out of the first round after a horrible trade for Penny last season?



How about because Paul DePodesta's team is 1 for 1 in playoff appearances, which is better than KW's 0 for 4.

owensmouth
04-04-2005, 02:57 PM
By the end of the White Sox playoffs in 2000, the pitching staff was in tatters. We had two pitchers of any value, a closer, Kieth Foulke, and a 21 year old kid who looked okay and seemed to be able to throw strikes, Mark Buehrle.

What he did have was an offense that was productive, and I don't mean just by hitting the long ball. They scored a heck of a lot of runs by (as Farmio would say) keeping the line moving.

It was critical that Williams rebuild the pitching staff, and bluntly, it's taken him four years to get to where we are now.

I agree with the evaluation.

Tragg
04-04-2005, 05:27 PM
My complaint with Williams is that he doesn't cut a hard bargain. He focuses in on what he wants and overpays for it (minor deals excepted, on which he's done pretty well).

But overall, he's hardly the worst and much, much, much better than the guy who came before him.

Soxfest
04-04-2005, 05:32 PM
KW I feel that he has been over his head since day 1.

The Wunsch
04-04-2005, 09:05 PM
this article is lame, according to this guys logic the team with the most money is the best gm. Arizona and Kansas City have done some pretty good things in the past few years with limited budgets.

The only one he is right about is Philly. They spend tons of money and can't win anything. Almost as bad as the Yankees and Cubs.

DickAllen72
04-04-2005, 11:49 PM
Kenny Williams is one of the better GM's in baseball and he is my favorite GM in baseball. So there. :gulp:

doublem23
04-05-2005, 12:16 AM
The only one he is right about is Philly. They spend tons of money and can't win anything. Almost as bad as the Yankees and Cubs.

Boy, I'd like to be as bad as the Yankees.

FarWestChicago
04-05-2005, 12:19 AM
Boy, I'd like to be as bad as the Yankees.Well, I don't care what the haters think. I bet Kenny could rock with a $225 payroll, and look good doing it. :cool:

MeanFish
04-05-2005, 12:25 AM
Well, I don't care what the haters think. I bet Kenny could rock with a $225 payroll, and look good doing it. :cool:

How are we supposed to remain under the radar with a $225M payroll?

FarWestChicago
04-05-2005, 12:37 AM
How are we supposed to remain under the radar with a $225M payroll?He would need stealth technology at that point. :cool:

batmanZoSo
04-05-2005, 12:46 AM
He's in the upper tier of the average GMs I'd say. He gets a lot of points for being aggressive and making outstanding June trades every year. Not to mention immense return scrap heap pickups (Loaiza, Marte, Uribe, Takatsu, and I know I'm forgetting someone). But he hasn't won the division yet. Then again, he was handed an injury plagued, one-dimensional, inconsistent team led by a manager who was clueless. This is clearly the year where it's really his team on the field and in the dugout.

batmanZoSo
04-05-2005, 12:49 AM
In Recent History there was four years in a row that provided the Sox with Farm talent. McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, and Fernandez.

Karkovice Spent nearly 10 years in the Minors. Before him, Joel Skinner was the "heir" to Fisk's five sided plate. Skinner: all arm, no Stick.

Rodney Bolton, Bob Fallon, Kevin Hickey, Ross Bumgarten, Bruce Tanner, Al Jones, Lorenzo Grey, Joe Desa, Scott Ruffcorn, Kenny Williams, Francisco Barrios, Greg Hibbard, Bill Long, Shawn Hillegas, Steve Rosenberg, Scott Radinsky, Melido Perez, Kip Wells, Joe Borchard, John Cangelosi, Salome Barojas, Juan Agosto, Ken Kravec.. Heck I can go on.....

Minor League Talent is something that should be traded for real talent. Like When Jon Rausch Struck out 11 South African Hitters in 2000, That was his peak value... We should have dealt him then.

Judging by the past history of "Can't Miss prospects", We cannot Condemn Kenneth Williams for all of these minor league washouts......

Come on, Seņor Hindsight. Who in the world would've supported trading a 7'0" flamethrower who was dominating his competition at the time. Other than that, I agree.

34 Inch Stick
04-05-2005, 11:50 AM
I would agree with the earlier evalution of Ozzie. I have not seen anything from him that would lead me to want to see him beyond the end of his contract this year.

santo=dorf
04-05-2005, 12:12 PM
Well, I don't care what the haters think. I bet Kenny could rock with a $225 payroll, and look good doing it. :cool:

:dollarbill:
"That much?!?!"

Ol' No. 2
04-05-2005, 12:15 PM
Jerry Manuel was Manager of the Year in 2000. That should tell you pretty much all you need to know about these polls.

chisoxfan79
04-05-2005, 01:13 PM
[QUOTE=ChiWhiteSox1337]:rolleyes:
I guess Freddy Garcia doesn't count either?



I gonna give Ozzie credit for that see how Freddy could have went on the free agent market and gotten alot more money, but seeing how Ozzie is Freddy's future Father in law he stayed here.

Lip Man 1
04-05-2005, 01:34 PM
Chaz:

Not getting into the Williams debate but I will focus on you listing players who were (for want of a better word) failures.

You'll have to define your parameter of 'failure,' however history shows that Barrios was a good pitcher with the Sox for a few seasons especially 1977. Greg Hibbard did very well for the team particularly in 1990, for a few years, Scott Radinsky was one of the top left handed relief pitchers in the American League from the time he came up in 1990 until his suffered from lymph node cancer, and Ken Kravec had a few good years as a Sox starting pitcher especially in 1977.

Melido Perez by the way was acquired in a trade with kansas City and HE had some good years with the Sox before being traded as part of the Steve Sax deal.

By the way Harold Baines and Britt Burns were also part of the time frame you were discussing.

Lip