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kingpin_rcs
03-31-2005, 10:31 PM
I was listening to the local radio today and they were discussing the upcomming Mariners season. They were raving about Jeremy Reed, Olivio and Moorse, the players they got for Freddy Garcia. Basically thay were going on and on about how much of a lop sided trade that was.

Thoughts?

Ol' No. 2
03-31-2005, 10:33 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2629 Oh, goody. I get to be the first one to use this.

MRKARNO
03-31-2005, 10:36 PM
The Sox needed Garcia and were able to resign him at a bargain rate until 2007 because of the deal. Remember how pathetic our rotation looked before the deal?

Olivo will never figure it out at the plate.
Morse is a non-prospect.
Reed might be an outfield version of Jason Kendall at his peak.

Was the trade worth it? Yes!

OK? Good, now we're done with this

PAPChiSox729
03-31-2005, 10:38 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2629 Oh, goody. I get to be the first one to use this.

I second that.

BTW, it looks good.
:cool:

TaylorStSox
03-31-2005, 10:38 PM
I feel better about the trade then when it initially happened. I still think we got hosed though.

If the trade hadn't happened, we'd have the money saved on Dye and possibly AJ. We could have used that money, combined with the money spent on Garcia, to go after Pavano or Clement. I feel the latter are better pitchers. Not many people are going to agree with me. Pavano's on the rise while Garcia seems to be in decline.

Also, Olivo fits the mold of this team better than AJ. He had good enough speed to cause havok on the bases. He's much better defensively. His bat will improve IMO. The icing on the cake is that he's cheap. Obvioulsy AJ has the advantage when it comes to intangibles, something we've lacked, and he's a LH hitter. I'd rather have Olivo for the long haul though.

Morse is a non factor IMO.

RKMeibalane
03-31-2005, 10:40 PM
Is that you, jeremy?

Soxzilla
03-31-2005, 10:44 PM
Reed is a non-factor as well as his use for this team was nil.

In two years we will have an outfield of Sweeney - Rowand - Anderson.

Not sure where Reed would fit in with that.:gulp:

balke
03-31-2005, 10:48 PM
I shouldn't even contribute to this thread for the millionth time. In the end, no we didn't get hosed. We were making a run with a 1st place team yada yada, search forum for argument. Its over.

I do wanna say that I heard the Talent scout that went from the sox to the mariners said that Morse was the steal of the deal, not Reed or Olivo. So whatever that's worth.


Let us never speak of it again, it was a good trade, and we'd be a lot happier had Maggs or Frank not gone down. THE END.

batmanZoSo
03-31-2005, 10:51 PM
The Sox needed Garcia and were able to resign him at a bargain rate until 2007 because of the deal. Remember how pathetic our rotation looked before the deal?

Olivo will never figure it out at the plate.
Morse is a non-prospect.
Reed might be an outfield version of Jason Kendall at his peak.

Was the trade worth it? Yes!

OK? Good, now we're done with this

I agree with you in principle. However, we'll see in time what Olivo and Reed do. They both could be all-stars in my opinion, at least once, maybe not perennial all-stars. But we needed a quality starter like it was no one's business, and at the time we had and still have great OFers in the system. And Olivo might turn out to be a solid catcher, but he's never going to be I-Rod where we'll be kicking ourselves over it.

TaylorStSox
03-31-2005, 10:52 PM
I shouldn't even contribute to this thread for the millionth time. In the end, no we didn't get hosed. We were making a run with a 1st place team yada yada, search forum for argument. Its over.

I do wanna say that I heard the Talent scout that went from the sox to the mariners said that Morse was the steal of the deal, not Reed or Olivo. So whatever that's worth.


Let us never speak of it again, it was a good trade, and we'd be a lot happier had Maggs or Frank not gone down. THE END.

If you don't want to speak of it again then don't reply to the thread. Jesus! Why is everyone being so condensending lately?

balke
03-31-2005, 10:58 PM
Cause I saw the thing about morse being a non-factor, which may not be true.


DRATS REPLIED AGAIN! Let me help everyone.
condescending link (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=54899)

Flight #24
03-31-2005, 10:59 PM
Also, Olivo fits the mold of this team better than AJ. He had good enough speed to cause havok on the bases. He's much better defensively. His bat will improve IMO. The icing on the cake is that he's cheap. Obvioulsy AJ has the advantage when it comes to intangibles, something we've lacked, and he's a LH hitter. I'd rather have Olivo for the long haul though.



Which of these gives you such confidence?

- M's were concerned that he wasn't taking coaching well as recently as the end of last season
- Sox pitchers (reportedly) didn't like pitching to him
- His BA last 3 years: .211, .237, .233. His OBP: .287, .286, .287
- "He runs well", with 13 career SB and 10 career CS. That "havok" he's causing is due to costing the team runs
- In 3 years, he's hit .306 v. lefties......but .206 v. righties. Good thing the vast majority of MLB pitchers are LH. Oh wait.....

Seriously. Miggy could improve, but there's little actual performance that indicates that he's even going to be an everyday catcher. He's had 1 season with more than 250ABs where he batted more than .260 - 2002 at AA (.306). At some point, you need to turn potential into production, and Miggy hasn't done that yet. He's a good guy, but raising the all-star flag for him is just a tad bit premature.

Meanwhile, AJ has a career .294avg in 1899 ABs, and up to last year, had improved each year that he saw decent time in both BA & OBP. Miguel hopes he can one day be the offensive player that AJ is today.

PAPChiSox729
03-31-2005, 11:08 PM
Seriously. Miggy could improve, but there's little actual performance that indicates that he's even going to be an everyday catcher. He's had 1 season with more than 250ABs where he batted more than .260 - 2002 at AA (.306). At some point, you need to turn potential into production, and Miggy hasn't done that yet. He's a good guy, but raising the all-star flag for him is just a tad bit premature.

But Hawk said ... I hope Olivio gets better. I liked him while he was year. He was one of those players I liked to root for. Truthfully, though, now I can't say I miss him...

TaylorStSox
03-31-2005, 11:12 PM
Which of these gives you such confidence?

- M's were concerned that he wasn't taking coaching well as recently as the end of last season
- Sox pitchers (reportedly) didn't like pitching to him
- His BA last 3 years: .211, .237, .233. His OBP: .287, .286, .287
- "He runs well", with 13 career SB and 10 career CS. That "havok" he's causing is due to costing the team runs
- In 3 years, he's hit .306 v. lefties......but .206 v. righties. Good thing the vast majority of MLB pitchers are LH. Oh wait.....

Seriously. Miggy could improve, but there's little actual performance that indicates that he's even going to be an everyday catcher. He's had 1 season with more than 250ABs where he batted more than .260 - 2002 at AA (.306). At some point, you need to turn potential into production, and Miggy hasn't done that yet. He's a good guy, but raising the all-star flag for him is just a tad bit premature.

Meanwhile, AJ has a career .294avg in 1899 ABs, and up to last year, had improved each year that he saw decent time in both BA & OBP. Miguel hopes he can one day be the offensive player that AJ is today.


I don't think he will ever be the hitter that AJ is. With that said, he'll be a career .250 hitter. He may not steal bases (although he did a good clip in the minors) but he can get home from second on a single and does well in first to third situations. You don't have to steal bases to showcase your speed.

Our team is built on defense and speed. Olivo would be a better option in both of those categories. I have been known to call him a future all star from time to time but that's probably just wishful thinking.

Regardless, Olivo + Reed + Free Agent starter > Garcia + AJ + Dye IMO. It was last year and it still is this year. Especially when considering our financial flexibility, or lack there of.


Somebody mentioned Anderson + Sweeney + Rowand > Reed + Sweeney + Rowand. I disagree. Reed will probably be better than Anderson. Also, Sweeney's probably 2 years away.

I really hope I'm wrong.


*edit* I give it 20 minutes until somebody calls me a :dtroll:.

shoota
03-31-2005, 11:15 PM
I think the steal part is the Mariners getting Reed when the Sox could've dumped Crede on them. Crede's a guy no one has ever thought of as a future all-star. I mean, this is a guy who was almost lost his position in favor of Wes Helms! :o:

I don't know about you guys but I want my old Mikman back. This new one sucks.

hosieryofthegods
03-31-2005, 11:20 PM
I don't think he will ever be the hitter that AJ is. With that said, he'll be a career .250 hitter. He may not steal bases (although he did a good clip in the minors) but he can get home from second on a single and does well in first to third situations. You don't have to steal bases to showcase your speed.

Our team is built on defense and speed. Olivo would be a better option in both of those categories. I have been known to call him a future all star from time to time but that's probably just wishful thinking.

Regardless, Olivo + Reed + Free Agent starter > Garcia + AJ + Dye IMO. It was last year and it still is this year. Especially when considering our financial flexibility, or lack there of.


Somebody mentioned Anderson + Sweeney + Rowand > Reed + Sweeney + Rowand. I disagree. Reed will probably be better than Anderson. Also, Sweeney's probably 2 years away.

I really hope I'm wrong.


*edit* I give it 20 minutes until somebody calls me a :dtroll:.


Olivo has to get on base to hit up the first and third situation. Pierzynski is better, period. I don't care about potential. Play well now, or get off my team.:tongue:

shoota
03-31-2005, 11:22 PM
And when this trade did go down, I thought Freddy Garcia was a better pitcher than the one we got. I thought he was already an Ace, a dominant pitcher, but he's not even better than Buehrle.

A. Cavatica
03-31-2005, 11:30 PM
I'll second the part about thinking Garcia was better than what he's shown for us so far. If he goes 15-15 then we probably did get ripped off.

TaylorStSox
03-31-2005, 11:34 PM
I honestly don't see Garcia succeeding in our park. He throws way too many fly balls.

Also, I can't help but question his motivation and pitching intangibles. For a guy with his stuff, he's no where near as dominant as he should be. From time to time, he looks bored. It shows in his performance.

California Sox
03-31-2005, 11:40 PM
Yeah, it'll be a taste issue until a couple of years from now when the results are in. I don't much care for Freddy. I think he's quite average. I like Jeremy Reed. I picked him up for my fantasy team. But I might be wrong on both counts. Let the games begin!

MeanFish
03-31-2005, 11:49 PM
Our team is built on defense and speed.

Our defense is improved and we're certainly better on the basepaths. But those things just mean we're balanced now, since we've still got a formidable middle-of-the-order combined with the improved D and baserunning.

The Devil Rays are built on defense and speed, and I'll tell you sure as I'm sitting here that they're much quicker and probably better defensively. However, we can hit a heck of a lot harder than them. We can still hit harder than most teams. It's just that now people aren't going to be calling us a "world-class softball team"

fquaye149
04-01-2005, 12:37 AM
I don't think he will ever be the hitter that AJ is. With that said, he'll be a career .250 hitter.

Regardless, Olivo + Reed + Free Agent starter > Garcia + AJ + Dye IMO. It was last year and it still is this year. Especially when considering our financial flexibility, or lack there of.





*edit* I give it 20 minutes until somebody calls me a :dtroll:.

wow. I really didn't WANT to call you a :dtroll: but COME ON.

.250 hitter > .290 hitter?

Reed who will hit .275 this year with negligible power > Dye?...

I guess this is the one part I can go along with considering we don't really KNOW how Reed will do but:

UNKNOW FREE AGENT PITCHER > Freddie???? WHAT?

What free agent on the market was better? WHICH? Pavano is the only one who comes to mind, and guess what - he's not that great! The ESPN hype machine blows his mediocre numbers up and all of a sudden he's an ace? NO.

*****.

This wasn't one of those Larry Anderson trades. Even if Olivo and Reed turn out to be all stars it will be in 3 or 4 years. Meanwhile, Garcia (knock on wood) will at least be SOLID for us for at least 3.5 years.

There is only one team that could be said to be a loser in this deal. We have already "won" our half....if Reed, Olivo, and Morse don't pan out...the M's lost.

Otherwise both sides have won in filling holes that they couldn't otherwise (although I'm SURE the M's lack of pitching this year won't be assuaged by whatever offense they think they've added)

ChiSoxRowand
04-01-2005, 12:39 AM
This is one of those trades that is a good trade for both teams. I liked the trade when it was made and still like it.

nodiggity59
04-01-2005, 12:45 AM
Olivo's never had an OBP much higher than .300 at the Magor League level. By comparison, neither has Crede. How many people are happy with Crede?

Morse, most people forget, will probably never play SS in the major leagues. As a 3B/1B/OF prospect he's only mediocre.

Reed is solid but still an unknown youngster and OF is a tremendous depth for us and Im glad we got something good for what we had.

Freddy Garcia, although not the ace we might have thought, is far superior to any free agent signed this year. Let's not forget that Pavano has had only one good season AND he's making more than Freddy for longer. Clement makes only slightly less than Freddy and is a career NL pitcher. Freddy might not be a top 5 pitcher in the AL but he WILL win 15 games this year at a decent price.

Sargeant79
04-01-2005, 01:08 AM
Clement makes only slightly less than Freddy and is a career NL pitcher. Freddy might not be a top 5 pitcher in the AL but he WILL win 15 games this year at a decent price.

Let's not forget too that Clement was dropped from the starting rotation last September in favor of a journeyman, all in the midst of a very close wild card race. That's not the kind of pitcher you shell out 8 or 9 million a year for, or even the 7 million we wound up giving to Garcia.

I would bet that Garcia will finish the year with more wins with us than Clement will have with Boston, and probably even more than an overhyped Carl Pavano will have with the Yankees, all while coming a couple million cheaper than either of those two. Garcia is the best option among the three, especially when considering cost.

OEO Magglio
04-01-2005, 01:11 AM
He's much better defensively.


AJ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Olivo defensively. Olivo can't call a game and he can't catch the fricken ball, he's got a gun but that's it. Just because he's got a great arm doesn't make him a good defender, cause he's not he's actually pretty brutal defensively at this moment.

TaylorStSox
04-01-2005, 01:17 AM
wow. I really didn't WANT to call you a :dtroll: but COME ON.

.250 hitter > .290 hitter?

Reed who will hit .275 this year with negligible power > Dye?...

I guess this is the one part I can go along with considering we don't really KNOW how Reed will do but:

UNKNOW FREE AGENT PITCHER > Freddie???? WHAT?

What free agent on the market was better? WHICH? Pavano is the only one who comes to mind, and guess what - he's not that great! The ESPN hype machine blows his mediocre numbers up and all of a sudden he's an ace? NO.

*****.

This wasn't one of those Larry Anderson trades. Even if Olivo and Reed turn out to be all stars it will be in 3 or 4 years. Meanwhile, Garcia (knock on wood) will at least be SOLID for us for at least 3.5 years.

There is only one team that could be said to be a loser in this deal. We have already "won" our half....if Reed, Olivo, and Morse don't pan out...the M's lost.

Otherwise both sides have won in filling holes that they couldn't otherwise (although I'm SURE the M's lack of pitching this year won't be assuaged by whatever offense they think they've added)

A .250 hitter who costs less and plays much better defense, with good speed is more valuable to our team than AJ IMO.

You want to bet that Reed hits more than .275? He hits .400 in the minors. He hits .397 in limited AB's last year. Now he's going to be a .275 hitter? Would I take Reed at the price over Dye? Yeah, probably. My prediction Reed .312/14/80. Dye .270/22/85. At the price, I'll take Reed. Not to mention that he's younger and doesn't have a history of injuries.

Pavano or Clement (at the cell) > Garcia....... You can pull out all the numbers that you want. Pavano is a pitcher on the rise. Garcia is a pitcher in decline. Clement and Garcia might be a wash. But, signing Clement doesn't cost you 3 players.

What do you see in Garcia that you like so much?

If you think that trading for a 2 or 3 starter for 3 players in a year in which we probably wouldn't win the division vs. saving young talent and signing a free agent pitcher is a good trade then "*****."

OEO Magglio
04-01-2005, 01:26 AM
A .250 hitter who costs less and plays much better defense, with good speed is more valuable to our team than AJ IMO.

You want to bet that Reed hits more than .275? He hits .400 in the minors. He hits .397 in limited AB's last year. Now he's going to be a .275 hitter? Would I take Reed at the price over Dye? Yeah, probably. My prediction Reed .312/14/80. Dye .270/22/85. At the price, I'll take Reed. Not to mention that he's younger and doesn't have a history of injuries.

Pavano or Clement (at the cell) > Garcia....... You can pull out all the numbers that you want. Pavano is a pitcher on the rise. Garcia is a pitcher in decline. Clement and Garcia might be a wash. But, signing Clement doesn't cost you 3 players.

What do you see in Garcia that you like so much?

If you think that trading for a 2 or 3 starter for 3 players in a year in which we probably wouldn't win the division vs. saving young talent and signing a free agent pitcher is a good trade then "*****."
Ok, first off I find it interesting how you believe that Dye's homerun numbers are going to go down from coming from a pitchers park to a hitters park:?: Next, how the heck is freddy a pitcher in decline that makes 0 sense. Once again Olivo is NOT a good defender you must not have seen him play much.

TaylorStSox
04-01-2005, 01:32 AM
Ok, first off I find it interesting how you believe that Dye's homerun numbers are going to go down from coming from a pitchers park to a hitters park:?: Next, how the heck is freddy a pitcher in decline that makes 0 sense. Once again Olivo is NOT a good defender you must not have seen him play much.

Garcia's career numbers show you he's in decline.

I don't care if Dye hits 30 homers. I'd rather have Reed. Reed's a guy that's going to get on base more. He's left handed. He's a contact hitter. Plus, we'll have him (at a cheap rate) for at least 3 more years.

This thread really isn't about AJ vs. Olivo. If we don't make the trade, we would have probably signed AJ anyway. It should be about Olivo vs. Widger/Burke.

IMO Garcia was the wrong guy to make a trade for. I don't think he'll do well pitching at the cell for a year. I think he's an underachiever. I think he's in decline.

If we don't make the trade, we have money to sign a free agent. We don't need to sign Dye. We have more for the future.

nasox
04-01-2005, 01:32 AM
If you don't want to speak of it again then don't reply to the thread. Jesus! Why is everyone being so condensending lately?

Why is everyone posting lame, tired threads that beat down dead horses so much they look like the fertilizer I use in my garden? (and I use nothing but 100%, bonafide cow dung)

OEO Magglio
04-01-2005, 01:46 AM
Garcia's career numbers show you he's in decline.

I don't care if Dye hits 30 homers. I'd rather have Reed. Reed's a guy that's going to get on base more. He's left handed. He's a contact hitter. Plus, we'll have him (at a cheap rate) for at least 3 more years.

This thread really isn't about AJ vs. Olivo. If we don't make the trade, we would have probably signed AJ anyway. It should be about Olivo vs. Widger/Burke.

IMO Garcia was the wrong guy to make a trade for. I don't think he'll do well pitching at the cell for a year. I think he's an underachiever. I think he's in decline.

If we don't make the trade, we have money to sign a free agent. We don't need to sign Dye. We have more for the future.

Hey, you're the one who predicted dye to hit 22 homers, I wanted to know how that came about but then you changed your stance. Freddy's era in 03 was 4.51 and last year his era was 3.81 so his stats got better yet he's in decline:?: once again makes no sense. Ok, so now you're saying we'd sign aj so you're whining over a fricken backup catcher where Widger is probably the better fit anyways for that position, unbelievable. Please, I want to know what makes you think Miguel is a good defender, he is a bad defender and aj is 10 times better then him behind the plate, so please explain this one to me.

MisterB
04-01-2005, 03:16 AM
Garcia's career numbers show you he's in decline.


Freddy Garcia

K/9ip
02: 7.28
03: 6.44
04: 7.89 (career best so far)

K/BB ratio
02: 2.87
03: 2.03
04: 2.88 (career best so far)

BA Against
02: .260
03: .255
04: .242

OBP against
02: .311
03: .323
04: .303

SLG against
02: .419
03: .429
04: .389

ERA
02: 4.39
03: 4.52
04: 3.81

Which numbers show his decline? :?:

ChiSoxBobette
04-01-2005, 06:05 AM
The Sox needed Garcia and were able to resign him at a bargain rate until 2007 because of the deal. Remember how pathetic our rotation looked before the deal?

Olivo will never figure it out at the plate.
Morse is a non-prospect.
Reed might be an outfield version of Jason Kendall at his peak.

Was the trade worth it? Yes!

OK? Good, now we're done with this

"Olivo will never figure it out at the plate" and I'd like to add On the base paths. He was/is one of the worst baserunners in baseball. I loved the guy but when he was on base you never knew what he was going to try.

jabrch
04-01-2005, 07:04 AM
I do wanna say that I heard the Talent scout that went from the sox to the mariners said that Morse was the steal of the deal, not Reed or Olivo. So whatever that's worth.

If the best player they got in the deal was a SS who was being converted to 1B who had no place in the organization, then we got a great deal. Morse was going nowhere with us.

wdelaney72
04-01-2005, 07:50 AM
I'm not even gonna read this. I agree with Ol No. 2...

:threadsucks

nodiggity59
04-01-2005, 08:33 AM
Pavano or Clement (at the cell) > Garcia....... You can pull out all the numbers that you want. Pavano is a pitcher on the rise. Garcia is a pitcher in decline. Clement and Garcia might be a wash. But, signing Clement doesn't cost you 3 players.



:roflmao:

fquaye149
04-01-2005, 08:40 AM
You want to bet that Reed hits more than .275? He hits .400 in the minors. He hits .397 in limited AB's last year. Now he's going to be a .275 hitter? Would I take Reed at the price over Dye? Yeah, probably. My prediction Reed .312/14/80. Dye .270/22/85. At the price, I'll take Reed. Not to mention that he's younger and doesn't have a history of injuries.


WOW. This is beyond idiotic. Why not just pencil him in for a .300 hitter in his rookie year.

You're like the idiotic Twins fans I talk to who GUARANTEE me that Morneau will hit 35 home runs and that if Mauer plays all year he will hit .350 with 30+ home runs.

Yup. You go ahead and pencil them in for that.

Actually, I'm more apt to believe the Twins' numbers considering they've actually played more than "limited at bats"


Crawl back under the Espn building rock from whence you came where once someone leaves the White Sox they become a superstar (Carlos Lee, Olivo, Reed) and when they get to the White Sox they become garbage in the eyes of the press.

soxtalker
04-01-2005, 08:43 AM
I thought it was a bad trade at the time, and that was before Frank/Maggs went out and doomed last season. We could have signed Garcia in the off season (and probably would have given the relationship with Ozzie combined with KW's aggressiveness). Yes, we would have paid more, but, as others have pointed out, we wouldn't have had to pay for the other players. We paid a high price for the chance to win last year.

I occasionally check the Seattle papers to see how Reed and Olivo are doing. Reed shows every sign of continuing to hit at the same clip in the majors as he did in the minors. Olivo appears to have turned the corner on his play-calling problems.

We'll survive without them, but I'd feel much more optimistic about the future (this year and several years) with Olivo and Reed.

anewman35
04-01-2005, 08:47 AM
Regardless, Olivo + Reed + Free Agent starter > Garcia + AJ + Dye IMO. It was last year and it still is this year. Especially when considering our financial flexibility, or lack there of.


Why is it that people completly ignore the situtation we were in last year? It didn't work out because of injuries, but for a long time it looked like the only thing the team needed was a 5th starter. So KW went out and got another top of the rotation starter. If Frank AND Mags hadn't went down, and Schoenweis continued to pitch like he had, we would have won this division and not needed to see Munoz or Diaz or Grilli or any of them. That was a key part of this deal that you're completly ignoring.

Jurr
04-01-2005, 08:48 AM
The only questionable move made last year was paying 8M a year to Contreras with his 4th starter mentality. He has ace stuff with a deficit upstairs. I am getting the weird feeling in my gut that McCarthy is going to be replacing Jose in the rotation, giving us an 8M dollar long reliever.

Garcia is well worth the money we're giving him, and as much as I liked Olivo, I think we did well in that trade. The alternatives to not having Garcia would not be that great. If you're going to say we got hosed in a deal, it may very well end up being the Contreras deal.

soxtalker
04-01-2005, 09:03 AM
Why is it that people completly ignore the situtation we were in last year? It didn't work out because of injuries, but for a long time it looked like the only thing the team needed was a 5th starter. So KW went out and got another top of the rotation starter. If Frank AND Mags hadn't went down, and Schoenweis continued to pitch like he had, we would have won this division and not needed to see Munoz or Diaz or Grilli or any of them. That was a key part of this deal that you're completly ignoring.

One reason that opponents of the trade may ignore the situation at the time is that the supporters of this trade also seem to ignore it. I agree that the the trade was made to give us a chance to win last year, and that fell apart when Frank/Maggs went down. But that isn't the reason that is touted by supporters usually. Rather, they cite the opportunity to sign Garcia for several years.

infohawk
04-01-2005, 09:20 AM
[QUOTE]
Pavano's on the rise while Garcia seems to be in decline.[QUOTE]

Pavano is certainly a good pitcher, but we have yet to see how he will fare in the American League. Also, hindsight is 20/20. When someone you could use becomes available and obtainable, you have to strike. Look at the Tigers. With all the money they had to spend, they couldn't compete with certain other teams when it came to luring free agent pitchers.

AZChiSoxFan
04-01-2005, 09:25 AM
I feel better about the trade then when it initially happened. I still think we got hosed though.

If the trade hadn't happened, we'd have the money saved on Dye and possibly AJ. We could have used that money, combined with the money spent on Garcia, to go after Pavano or Clement. I feel the latter are better pitchers. Not many people are going to agree with me. Pavano's on the rise while Garcia seems to be in decline.




Totally agree with you on Pavano and Clement. After all, what could be better than two pitchers with career records under .500.

Flight #24
04-01-2005, 09:26 AM
A .250 hitter who costs less and plays much better defense, with good speed is more valuable to our team than AJ IMO.


OK, Let's be clear. - Miggy is speedy FOR A CATCHER. His speed isn't going to make a significant difference relative to AJ, especially when you factor in that he's on base about 2/3 of the time that AJ is. But that D is really the key, yeah, because the team as constructed now is just overflowing with offense......:?:

You want to bet that Reed hits more than .275? He hits .400 in the minors. He hits .397 in limited AB's last year. Now he's going to be a .275 hitter? Would I take Reed at the price over Dye? Yeah, probably. My prediction Reed .312/14/80. Dye .270/22/85. At the price, I'll take Reed. Not to mention that he's younger and doesn't have a history of injuries.
You're right. Reed's 58 ABs hitting .397 are huge. The good thing is that the Sox can make up the offensive disparity because they have an SS in Uribe who hit.393 in his first 61ABs last year. I'm sure that means he's going to do something similar......

You do realize that Reed's career minor league BA outside of his amazing 242ABs in Birmingham was .306, right? And that he hit a total 24 minor league HRs in 3 years? But I'm sure in a pitchers park in Seattle, he'll put up 14, yeah. And he'll bat .350 too!

Pavano or Clement (at the cell) > Garcia....... You can pull out all the numbers that you want. Pavano is a pitcher on the rise. Garcia is a pitcher in decline. Clement and Garcia might be a wash. But, signing Clement doesn't cost you 3 players.

Ah, the ever popular "don't concern me with facts" argument!!! Pavano's been a middling to bad pitcher through 6 years, then in his 7th he has an awesome year, magically coinciding with is contract year. I'm sure he'll maintain as he comes to the AL and moves out of the pitchers park in Miami.


If you think that trading for a 2 or 3 starter for 3 players in a year in which we probably wouldn't win the division vs. saving young talent and signing a free agent pitcher is a good trade then "*****."

This is about the most ludicrous statement I've possibly ever heard. Garcia joined a team that was in first, contending for the best record in the AL, and was the top scoring team in baseball. But yeah, adding a #1 or at worst solid #2 pitcher to that wouldn't mean a thing in terms of winning the division. Or maybe you subscribe to the theory that KW knew Maggs was gone for the year and Frank was soon to be gone for the year?
:whatever:
I can't believe I just wasted 5 minutes responding to this crap.

Lip Man 1
04-01-2005, 09:55 AM
Since I get Fox Sports Northwest out here I've tuned in to the M's every so often when they show spring training exhibitions. The Seattle announcers were commenting on how Olivo 'has to learn to call a better game...' I also read the same thing in the print edition of 'The Sporting News,' a few weeks ago.

Take it for what it's worth.

Lip

balke
04-01-2005, 09:57 AM
Come on guys, fact is Jeremy Reed had a .470 oBP last season, I don't remember what Garcia hit... but I'm sure it wasn't very good. I'm starting him over Ichiro, it was a tough decision, but I mean compare these guys' history and you'll see good ole JR is clearly the better hitter.

Can we get Schoenweis back? I hear he's cheap, and he's on the rise, where as Garcia is on the decline. Just look at the numbers where his ERA went down last season, that's really bad I heard. k thanx for listening guys, my fantasy team is looking so good right now guys.

DaleJRFan
04-01-2005, 10:22 AM
I feel better about the trade then when it initially happened. I still think we got hosed though.

If the trade hadn't happened, we'd have the money saved on Dye and possibly AJ. We could have used that money, combined with the money spent on Garcia, to go after Pavano or Clement. I feel the latter are better pitchers. Not many people are going to agree with me. Pavano's on the rise while Garcia seems to be in decline.

Also, Olivo fits the mold of this team better than AJ. He had good enough speed to cause havok on the bases. He's much better defensively. His bat will improve IMO. The icing on the cake is that he's cheap. Obvioulsy AJ has the advantage when it comes to intangibles, something we've lacked, and he's a LH hitter. I'd rather have Olivo for the long haul though.

Morse is a non factor IMO.

Neither Pavano nor Clement would have come here. Pavano is over-rated and overpaid and Clement is no better than Freddy Garcia. We have about 47 outstanding outfield "Prospects" so Reed was expendable. Olivo will never hit more than 260 and the only reason he looked good behind the plate was because he was catching Loaiza's outings. Freddy is here. Morse, Olivo and Reed are in Seattle.

Let's all get over it. :redneck

mdep524
04-01-2005, 11:26 AM
I hate to see Olivo and Reed bashed in threads like these, simply because they were part of a trade out of their control. Victims of circumstance!

I really liked Olivo. Sure, he was the wort baserunner I had ever seen (CLee 2nd place), had some trouble calling games, had a low OBP and couldn't hit righties too well, but there was a spark in him that made him a joy to watch. And he's still very young! Catchers only get better with experience, and I wish him the best and always will root for him.

Jeremy Reed, I'm so sorry some Sox fans feel the need to trash you to justify this trade. The trade was justifiable even considering Reed is a good player. It's a good deal for the Sox, in that they picked up Garcia and signed him to a bargain contract, and filled out their potential-playoff rotation for '04. Do I think a trade for Freddy could have been completed without Reed? Yes, probably. (Considering Olivo's potential and Seattle's positive impressions of Morse, I doubt the Yankees could have matched that deal even if the Sox included a lesser prospect than Reed) But whatever, in the long run it's not the biggest thing in the world.

But that doesn't mean that Reed somehow sucks! He's going to be a damn good ballplayer- good eye, good mentality, smart, tough kid who's going to be a solid hitter. I root for him all the time as well as Miggy.

TaylorStSox
04-01-2005, 11:40 AM
I've been called an idiot, a troll, some kind of espn sympathizer, and a Twins fan in this thread. :gulp: Kudo's Sox fans.

I still contend that Pavano and Clement will have better years than Garcia. Reed will have a better year than Dye. The thing that boggles my mind is that people believe Reed was expendable because of Anderson and Sweeney. There's no guarantee that Sweeney will reach his potential. There's no guarantee that Anderson won't be more than a 4th outfielder. Meanwhile, Reed is bashed for not having enough power.

I'll just :dtroll:my way over to the other Sox sites because I disagree with some of you guys.

maurice
04-04-2005, 02:27 PM
The problem with this argument is the complete dearth of evidence that Garcia is worse than Clement or Pavano, or somehow declining at a very early age. The good news is that this kind of spotty "analysis" qualifies you to write for major national publications.

Garcia is no Randy Johnson, but he's a #1 starter on most teams. That's a very valuable commodity . . . certainly more valuable than a .290-hitting corner OF with little power and little speed, and a less-than-.250-hitting catcher who can't call a game. This is coming from a person who has long track record of posting in support of both Reed and Olivo.

HITMEN OF 77
04-04-2005, 03:21 PM
Garcia is no Randy Johnson, but he's a #1 starter on most teams. That's a very valuable commodity . . . certainly more valuable than a .290-hitting corner OF with little power and little speed, and a less-than-.250-hitting catcher who can't call a game.

Agreed. IMO we got the better end of the deal. A #1/#2 starter for what we gave up, I'd do that any day of the week.

Tragg
04-04-2005, 04:23 PM
Olivo is an average major league starting catcher.

If Reed is playing CF, we definitely could have used him. He may be a real good player. (that reminds me, maybe we should revisit the Lee trade - that's the one we really got waaaayyyy less value than what we gave up, but it was for salary reasons as much as anything). We got a very good pitcher in return (saying "he isn't even as good as MB" suggests that you don't appreciate what we have in MB - a number 1 starter for all but a few teams).

shoota
04-04-2005, 05:38 PM
The problem with this argument is the complete dearth of evidence that Garcia is worse than Clement or Pavano, or somehow declining at a very early age. The good news is that this kind of spotty "analysis" qualifies you to write for major national publications.

Garcia is no Randy Johnson, but he's a #1 starter on most teams. That's a very valuable commodity . . . certainly more valuable than a .290-hitting corner OF with little power and little speed, and a less-than-.250-hitting catcher who can't call a game. This is coming from a person who has long track record of posting in support of both Reed and Olivo.

I think I agree with this, and though I didn't favor the trade the day it happened, in retrospect I can see the value of this trade. I think I was against the trade because it was reported that the Seattle GM asked for Crede and Olivo, and KW talked the Seattle GM into taking Reed instead of Crede, rationalizing that he didn't want to give up two players off his MLB roster.

What is your opinion on giving up someone you believe is a .290 hitter when you could have given up a .239 (2004 stats) hitter instead? Yes, the .290 Reed played a position in an organization that had an ample amount of prospects, while the position Crede filled had no major-league-ready prospects, but Sweeney and Anderson were both less proven than Jeremy Reed was at the time of the trade, and certainly not guarantees to someday succeed in MLB.

My opinion is that of an NFL team on draft day picking the best available player, regardless of the position he plays. I think Reed was/is the far superior baseball player than Crede, and despite not having a readily available replacement for Crede's position, would have either acquiesced with the Seattle's original trade offer, or would not have made the trade at all. I certainly would not have suggested Seattle take Reed in place of Crede.

Maurice, at the time of the trade would you have preferred to give up Reed or Crede? Does that opinion change with hinsight knowledge, ie, Crede and Reed's 2004 performances, White Sox not making the 2004 playoffs anyway, etc.?

ma-gaga
04-04-2005, 05:51 PM
Well, some of us 'propellerheads' prefer to think that KW could have signed Garcia as a FA and then had both him AND the kids that he traded away. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but from the reports about Guillen being so close to Garcia, it sure sounds like he may have been able to lure him away from Seattle.

Thru the end of last year, KW has gotten the better end of the deal. We'll see what happens this year. It's way too early to say that there is a CLEAR WINNER.

:cool:

Lip Man 1
04-04-2005, 06:11 PM
Ma-Gaga:

Given the price to get pitches this off season (both high dollar amounts AND long term deals) the Sox never would have been able to sign Garcia due to their self imposed constraints. (both financial and contractual)

Lip

Ol' No. 2
04-04-2005, 08:23 PM
Holy crap. Is this still going on? The horse is dead, made into dog food and has been scooped up in thousands of yards. Give it a rest.

Daver
04-04-2005, 08:24 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gif

SluggersAway
04-04-2005, 08:28 PM
Why is everyone posting lame, tired threads that beat down dead horses so much they look like the fertilizer I use in my garden? (and I use nothing but 100%, bonafide cow dung)

Amen, and please read a few of the threads we've had since you visited last summer.

cburns
04-04-2005, 08:33 PM
Is it possible that trades can work out for both teams?

Tragg
04-04-2005, 09:23 PM
Ma-Gaga:

Given the price to get pitches this off season (both high dollar amounts AND long term deals) the Sox never would have been able to sign Garcia due to their self imposed constraints. (both financial and contractual)

Lip

I agree

And as for the notion that he'd have signed with the Sox because he loves Guillen and the Sox, well I've heard that stuff for 25 years. It began with Richie Zisk "I had a dream, I would stay in chicago for life....." and gone the next year, and many others have followed.

soxtalker
04-04-2005, 09:32 PM
Holy crap. Is this still going on? The horse is dead, made into dog food and has been scooped up in thousands of yards. Give it a rest.

Really? You want to say that too much time has passed for any discussion / evaluation of the trade? I don't think so. After the trade was made, there were plenty of KW supporters arguing that it was a great trade because Reed and Morse were only prospects, while Garcia was an obvious #1/#2 pitcher. As many of us pointed out at the time, it takes a bit of time to evaluate any trade -- and this is particularly true for trades involving prospects.

We'll be talking about this trade for the next couple of years -- as we should. No, we can't change the trade, but that was true the minute it was completed. But debate it -- of course we will. That's one of the main things we do on this board.

Ol' No. 2
04-04-2005, 10:56 PM
Really? You want to say that too much time has passed for any discussion / evaluation of the trade? I don't think so. After the trade was made, there were plenty of KW supporters arguing that it was a great trade because Reed and Morse were only prospects, while Garcia was an obvious #1/#2 pitcher. As many of us pointed out at the time, it takes a bit of time to evaluate any trade -- and this is particularly true for trades involving prospects.

We'll be talking about this trade for the next couple of years -- as we should. No, we can't change the trade, but that was true the minute it was completed. But debate it -- of course we will. That's one of the main things we do on this board.Except this has long since stopped being a debate. Not a thing new has been added in months. It's more in the category of "is so....is not".

MRKARNO
04-04-2005, 11:02 PM
I can't believe this thread actually got 62 repsonses so far.

ma-gaga
04-04-2005, 11:07 PM
Ma-Gaga:

Given the price to get pitches this off season (both high dollar amounts AND long term deals) the Sox never would have been able to sign Garcia due to their self imposed constraints. (both financial and contractual)

Lip

I agree as well. This offseason was CRAZY for pitchers. So that skews the balance towards Kenny. Like I said, it was "wishful thinking" to think that loyalty or friendship would overrule money. Anyways.

:cool: And I'll determine when a thread is dead #2. Who is #1?

MRKARNO
04-04-2005, 11:10 PM
I agree as well. This offseason was CRAZY for pitchers. So that skews the balance towards Kenny. Like I said, it was "wishful thinking" to think that loyalty or friendship would overrule money. Anyways.


Garcia would have gotten 12-13 mil a year probably on the open market for four years. See under Bartolo Colon.

soxtalker
04-04-2005, 11:17 PM
Except this has long since stopped being a debate. Not a thing new has been added in months. It's more in the category of "is so....is not".

Perhaps that is true of much that has been stated in this thread, but not entirely -- and it certainly isn't the way that the debate has to go. The one bit of progress from ST is the play of Reed, where his major league play appears to match his numbers in the minors. But we'll have a better idea on all of them -- including Garcia -- as the season progresses.

Ol' No. 2
04-04-2005, 11:19 PM
Perhaps that is true of much that has been stated in this thread, but not entirely -- and it certainly isn't the way that the debate has to go. The one bit of progress from ST is the play of Reed, where his major league play appears to match his numbers in the minors. But we'll have a better idea on all of them -- including Garcia -- as the season progresses.I don't think you can conclude anything from the piddling number of AB Reed has had. Give it a year. Or more. Preferably much more.