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whitesoxwilkes
03-28-2005, 05:27 PM
Remind me again why Ozuna probably won't make the roster? I love this guy!

DumpJerry
03-28-2005, 05:33 PM
I would not assume he won't just yet.........

Ol' No. 2
03-28-2005, 05:35 PM
Remind me again why Ozuna probably won't make the roster? I love this guy!Barring a broken leg, I can't see any way he won't.

spawn
03-28-2005, 05:37 PM
Barring a broken leg, I can't see any way he won't.
Amen to that. The guy has done everything that has been asked of him. He's earned a spot.

Lip Man 1
03-28-2005, 05:40 PM
Goodbye Willie...thanks for next to nothing over the past few years.

Lip

DumpJerry
03-28-2005, 05:41 PM
Also, Ozzie has been way too complimentary about him (Ozuna) in ST and has been somewhat silent about Willie. Of course, if you can't say something good about someone, you should not say anything, right?

MIgrenade
03-28-2005, 05:42 PM
I think Ozuna is 30 years old. That might have something to do with it. Otherwise I like him.

BRDSR
03-28-2005, 05:44 PM
Without going over the numbers meticulously, they might both make the roster until Thomas comes back. It would almost be like an extra month of battle over the roster spot for those two. I have a hard time believing either of them won't make the roster out of spring training, but I also have a hard time believing they'll both be on the roster in June. Time will tell.

Ol' No. 2
03-28-2005, 05:47 PM
Without going over the numbers meticulously, they might both make the roster until Thomas comes back. It would almost be like an extra month of battle over the roster spot for those two. I have a hard time believing either of them won't make the roster out of spring training, but I also have a hard time believing they'll both be on the roster in June. Time will tell.Bingo. Willie has an option left, which makes him more tradable. I still believe they'll trade him, but they'll keep him on the roster as long as they can to avoid using up that last option.

California Sox
03-28-2005, 05:55 PM
Why not keep Ozuna and Willie and trade Timo? Timo is clutch, but when is he ever going to play? Willie's as good in center as Timo, plus he can pinch run better and play the infield. How often is Timo going to pinch hit with Gload (and later either Crazy Carl or Pods) on the bench? I don't see Timo playing, but both Willie and Ozuna would give us outstanding flexibility.

the gooch
03-28-2005, 06:11 PM
no. willie is not better than timo in the outfield. timo has a great arm and will be used as a defensive replacement if crazy carl is out there late in the game. but ill agree with the logjam of outfielders on this team, and willie's versatility helps.

FightingBillini
03-28-2005, 06:26 PM
Why not keep Ozuna and Willie and trade Timo? Timo is clutch, but when is he ever going to play? Willie's as good in center as Timo, plus he can pinch run better and play the infield. How often is Timo going to pinch hit with Gload (and later either Crazy Carl or Pods) on the bench? I don't see Timo playing, but both Willie and Ozuna would give us outstanding flexibility.
A team can NEVER have too many quality pinch hitters. Besides that, Willie is in no way a better pinch runner than Timo. Timo is the best baserunner on the team other than Pods. As I have said before, Timo isn't the fastest, but he is extremely smart on the basepaths. It doesn't matter how fast Willie is, he doesn't know how to run the bases.

DickAllen72
03-28-2005, 06:33 PM
Why not keep Ozuna and Willie and trade Timo? Timo is clutch, but when is he ever going to play? Willie's as good in center as Timo, plus he can pinch run better and play the infield. How often is Timo going to pinch hit with Gload (and later either Crazy Carl or Pods) on the bench? I don't see Timo playing, but both Willie and Ozuna would give us outstanding flexibility.

That makes about the most sense. When Frank comes back, Carl becomes the fourth outfielder. Timo won't be able to get many AB's unless they come at Carl's expense, and we don't want that.

We have a lot of Outfielders coming up in the organization, and both Pablo and Willie can also play outfield. They also have much more speed than Timo. Frank will probably need to be pinch-run for in a lot of situations.

Timo has been a valuable bench player for the Sox, but barring trade or injury, it appears he will be the odd man out upon Frank's return.

voodoochile
03-28-2005, 06:59 PM
In theory, Harris still has an upside and is still relatively young. Iguchi may not be here much past 3 years and if Willie can develop over that time frame into a serviceable player, why would they dump him?

When the time comes be that at the end of regular ST or after Frank finishes his extended ST, they can send Willie to AAA and give him a healthy dose of humble pie to bring him into line. If Willie doesn't come around, they can always get that bag of baseballs at a later date.

Daver
03-28-2005, 07:57 PM
In theory, Harris still has an upside and is still relatively young. Iguchi may not be here much past 3 years and if Willie can develop over that time frame into a serviceable player, why would they dump him?

When the time comes be that at the end of regular ST or after Frank finishes his extended ST, they can send Willie to AAA and give him a healthy dose of humble pie to bring him into line. If Willie doesn't come around, they can always get that bag of baseballs at a later date.

I doubt he would clear waivers.

Ol' No. 2
03-28-2005, 09:01 PM
I doubt he would clear waivers.If you mean Harris, he has one option left.

ND_Sox_Fan
03-28-2005, 09:40 PM
I think Ozuna is 30 years old. That might have something to do with it. Otherwise I like him.

He's 24 - no big deal.

Fake Chet Lemon
03-28-2005, 09:42 PM
I like Willie, but he just will not stay with this roster for the long haul. Fast guys who can't steal or hit aren't too valuable. I don't think Ozzie is a big fan of his either. Ozuna deserves the spot. Timo proved his bench value last year, but then again we are pretty set with left handed hitting.

A. Cavatica
03-28-2005, 09:43 PM
I'm not saying this will be the roster, but it should be:

* 11 pitchers (not much debate about who at this point)
* 9 starters (Everett, Pierzynski, Konerko, Iguchi, Uribe, Crede, Dye, Rowand, Podsednik)
* 5 reserves

Reserve #1 will be a catcher. That's Davis, unless he's hurt, in which case it's Burke.

Reserve #2 will be Gload -- the best hitter of the bunch, and a solid 1B.

Reserve #3 should be Ozuna. He's fine at 3B/SS/2B and he's the best righthanded hitter in this group.

Reserve #4 needs to be able to play CF. Perez probably has the inside track, but Borchard and Harris can play CF, and this is where it gets interesting. I think Wilson Valdez has played himself out of a job, and the Sox have a lot less invested in him than either Borchard or Harris, so unless I'm forgetting someone there are really only three possible combinations for the last two spots: Perez/Harris, Perez/Borchard, or Harris/Borchard.

Harris is a good second baseman. He can cover ground in CF, but he isn't great out there, and he has a weak arm. He might be able to play short in an emergency. He has great speed but doesn't steal bases. He can draw some walks but has zero power.

Perez is allegedly "clutch", although he must be an awful hitter when not in "clutch" situations for his overall numbers to be so bad. He is the oldest of the three candidates and doesn't project to improve at the plate. He has some speed and can play any outfield position. He has a good arm.

Borchard, up to this point in his career, has been an even worse hitter than Perez. He is having a good spring, though, and when he connects he can do serious damage. He switch-hits. He can play all three outfield positions, has acceptable speed and a good arm.

I've been very negative on Borchard for a couple of years, but he's playing better this spring than he ever has. I am very worried about going north with no power hitters on the bench, so I think Borchard should be reserve #4. (We'll worry about what happens when Frank returns when Frank returns.)

Reserve #5 should be either Perez or Harris, and I have a slight preference for Harris. His OBP will be better, and he can learn to steal more bases.

Sorry, Timo.

Banix12
03-28-2005, 10:36 PM
I think Willie has it in him to be a solid major league starting second baseman, but I feel it's become time for him to move on and get a fresh start. The expectations here in Chicago have obviously gotten to him.

Physically, Willie can do a lot of things better than Timo. He's faster, has a better grasp of the strike zone, he's more versitile defensively. All that said, as a reserve player I would probably trust Timo more. Being a starter and being a reserve are two completely different jobs and not all can be a good reserve.

I figure start the season by carrying both Ozuna and Willie, just to see if Pablo can do what he's done in the preseason during the season, and if he can do it, trade Willie to somewhere he can get an opprotunity to play on a more regular basis and win a starting job.

Ol' No. 2
03-29-2005, 09:59 AM
He's 24 - no big deal.Ozuna is 30. BD 8/25/74 according to the Sox website roster. But really, as long as he can produce, I don't care if he's 80.

Tragg
03-29-2005, 10:03 AM
Remind me again why Ozuna probably won't make the roster? I love this guy!

how did we get Ozuna? Just a kid through the minors?

Also, what about the guy who played utility at the end of last year - forget his name - what's his status?

Flight #24
03-29-2005, 10:11 AM
I'm not saying this will be the roster, but it should be:

* 11 pitchers (not much debate about who at this point)
* 9 starters (Everett, Pierzynski, Konerko, Iguchi, Uribe, Crede, Dye, Rowand, Podsednik)
* 5 reserves

Reserve #1 will be a catcher. That's Davis, unless he's hurt, in which case it's Burke.

Reserve #2 will be Gload -- the best hitter of the bunch, and a solid 1B.

Reserve #3 should be Ozuna. He's fine at 3B/SS/2B and he's the best righthanded hitter in this group.

Reserve #4 needs to be able to play CF. Perez probably has the inside track, but Borchard and Harris can play CF, and this is where it gets interesting. I think Wilson Valdez has played himself out of a job, and the Sox have a lot less invested in him than either Borchard or Harris, so unless I'm forgetting someone there are really only three possible combinations for the last two spots: Perez/Harris, Perez/Borchard, or Harris/Borchard.

Harris is a good second baseman. He can cover ground in CF, but he isn't great out there, and he has a weak arm. He might be able to play short in an emergency. He has great speed but doesn't steal bases. He can draw some walks but has zero power.

Perez is allegedly "clutch", although he must be an awful hitter when not in "clutch" situations for his overall numbers to be so bad. He is the oldest of the three candidates and doesn't project to improve at the plate. He has some speed and can play any outfield position. He has a good arm.

Borchard, up to this point in his career, has been an even worse hitter than Perez. He is having a good spring, though, and when he connects he can do serious damage. He switch-hits. He can play all three outfield positions, has acceptable speed and a good arm.

I've been very negative on Borchard for a couple of years, but he's playing better this spring than he ever has. I am very worried about going north with no power hitters on the bench, so I think Borchard should be reserve #4. (We'll worry about what happens when Frank returns when Frank returns.)

Reserve #5 should be either Perez or Harris, and I have a slight preference for Harris. His OBP will be better, and he can learn to steal more bases.

Sorry, Timo.

IMO there's little to no debate here. Borchard's looking better, and may be turning the corner to being a decent hitter with bigtime power. Is the best way to maintain that by sitting on the bench & playing once a week? I don't think so. He's better off going back to AAA, playing every day, and continuing to work on improving.

Also, while Iguchi's looking nice this spring, I'd still be wary of not having a good backup plan. Since we have the roster spot while Frank is out, Willie makes perfect sense to hold onto as the backup (IMO Ozuna's a good UT IF but not much more, Willie still has the potential to improve and be an everyday 2B).

Timo/Willie on the bench.

delben91
03-29-2005, 10:12 AM
how did we get Ozuna? Just a kid through the minors?

Also, what about the guy who played utility at the end of last year - forget his name - what's his status?

We signed Ozuna as a free agent to a minor league deal. I think he was in the Rockies' system last year, but I could be wrong.

Wilson Valdez might be who you're talking about. I think he's out of options and would have to clear waivers, but he has been far less impressive with the stick than Ozuna has this spring, but has been solid in the field unless I'm missing something.

mikehuff
03-29-2005, 11:19 AM
The Tribune says today that Ozuna has his average up to .520. I think I just read that Willie is at about .179 this spring. Ozuna has gotten a lot of press lately. I think he'll be on the team. They gave Willie all the chances in the world, same as Borchard. I don't see Willie going to the minors though. He'll be shipped out. Borchard is expendable too. He's raising his value a lot this spring, but I will never trust him. I still know he's horrible. KW has a few guys he can send off. We'll see what he's thinking.

Risk
03-29-2005, 11:51 AM
Even though Borchard has had a pretty good spring so far, I still don't think he makes the team. I'd rather have him sent down to AAA so he can continue to improve. Also, even though the SP has been piss poor this spring, I don't think that trading Borchard now for more pitching (if that is the scenario) is feasible since there probably won't be too much quality starting pitching available at the beginning of the season.

I also think that with the risk of Dye getting injured that the Sox will probably need a power hitting OF, and so far Borchard is probably the most major league ready in the system.

BTW...Ozuna should definetly make the team. Seems like a good utility IF pick-up. Willie has had too many opportunities and hasn't made the most of them.

Risk

A. Cavatica
03-29-2005, 12:58 PM
If I were manager, I would want a power hitter (preferably switch-hitting) on my bench. Say what you will about Borchard, his power is legit.

Borchard will never be a star, and maybe not even a regular. That's why I've been so down on him. All that money and all that hype, for what?

But if we expect less of him -- comparing him to Timo/Willie instead of to Magglio -- he can be a useful role player. The opportunity lasts only as long as Frank is out. Then (barring another injury or a trade) he'll lose his role to Everett and go back to playing every day in Charlotte.

I can see the argument for keeping Borchard/Timo over Borchard/Harris, but keeping both Timo and Willie? I'll take balance over "small ball", thanks.

wdelaney72
03-29-2005, 01:30 PM
Borchard as a bench player is a scary thought. He has sucked at the MLB level in every opportunity. His minor league numbers are less than impressive. But because he has power he should be on the bench? That makes no sense. The numbers don't lie, he's an out 75% of the time he comes to the plate. He needs daily at bats and he needs to put up some real numbers CONSISTENTLY before he makes the team. That means AA or AAA.

Timo has PROVEN to be a successful bench player at the MLB level. He can lay down a bunt, he can play quality defense in the outfield, and he could probably write and star in the sequel to the Tom Emanski Base Running video. Timo stays.

Ozuna has been given an audition and he has put up numbers which DEMAND to be put on the MLB roster. His performance is exactly what Willie is not doing. He has given Kenny and Ozzie an offer they can't refuse. Ozuna stays.

Willie is a trade waiting to happen. Unlike Borchard, there's not a lot of money invested in him, and he's had more opportunity to show he's an everyday MLB player. He has shown he's NOT an every day player, repeatedly. My only concern with Willie is his one and only remaining option. If he starts with the MLB roster, he should be the one sent down once Frank gets back, and he needs to stay there until he meets his destiny - and that's a trade.

MisterB
03-29-2005, 01:59 PM
If I were manager, I would want a power hitter (preferably switch-hitting) on my bench. Say what you will about Borchard, his power is legit.

Borchard will never be a star, and maybe not even a regular. That's why I've been so down on him. All that money and all that hype, for what?

But if we expect less of him -- comparing him to Timo/Willie instead of to Magglio -- he can be a useful role player. The opportunity lasts only as long as Frank is out. Then (barring another injury or a trade) he'll lose his role to Everett and go back to playing every day in Charlotte.

I can see the argument for keeping Borchard/Timo over Borchard/Harris, but keeping both Timo and Willie? I'll take balance over "small ball", thanks.

If Borch can't hit, it doesn't matter what side of the plate he hits from. If you look at Joe, Timo, and Willie as pinch-players, Joe's the least likely to get a hit (or get on base at all), most likely to strike out, can't hit situationally, can't steal a base, can't bunt: the threat of a homerun is the only offensive advantage he has, and he doesn't hit them often enough to make much of a difference (he and Perez had the same SLG% last year). I'd prefer to give him one last go-around as a AAA regular to see if he finally get a clue as how to hit instead of him taking up space on the major league bench.

Flight #24
03-29-2005, 02:55 PM
If I were manager, I would want a power hitter (preferably switch-hitting) on my bench. Say what you will about Borchard, his power is legit.

Borchard will never be a star, and maybe not even a regular. That's why I've been so down on him. All that money and all that hype, for what?

But if we expect less of him -- comparing him to Timo/Willie instead of to Magglio -- he can be a useful role player. The opportunity lasts only as long as Frank is out. Then (barring another injury or a trade) he'll lose his role to Everett and go back to playing every day in Charlotte.

I can see the argument for keeping Borchard/Timo over Borchard/Harris, but keeping both Timo and Willie? I'll take balance over "small ball", thanks.

The question is whether Borchard can hit more than .150 playing in a parttiem role. Better for him & the organization to have him cement his improvements by playing every day, then you have a much better shot at getting part-time production from him.

Put it this way - he's having enough trouble simply adjusting and developing as a hitter. You'll set that back by giving him sporadic PT. It's highly likely that Borchard on the bench means you have the 2004 Joe as your bench power guy - which is not good.

Unregistered
03-29-2005, 03:00 PM
I don't know if it was posted, but either Carmen DeFalco or Bruce Levine said earlier today that both Ozuna and Willie Harris would make the team - one had nothing to do with the other.

duke of dorwood
03-29-2005, 03:04 PM
Valdez was claimed by the Mets

DaleJRFan
03-29-2005, 03:22 PM
Valdez was claimed by the Mets

Wilson Valdez?

Ol' No. 2
03-29-2005, 03:38 PM
Valdez was claimed by the MetsSource? I haven't seen anything about it.

maurice
03-29-2005, 03:51 PM
IMHO, the roster already is pretty much set until Frank finishes his rehab stint. Perez and Ozuna both will make the team. Widger might have a small chance to displace Davis. Harris will make the team out of Spring Training unless he's traded. Borchard will be in Charlotte unless he's traded. Burke should be in Charlotte also.

Neither Harris nor Borchard is likely to become a star, but both players have at least an outside shot at becoming regulars for some MLB team. Harris needs to at least maintain his 2004 OBP and attempt far more steals when given the opportunity, and Borchard needs to hit for average at Charlotte. If they pull this off, some MLB team will give them a look.

In the long run, the odd man out could be Ross Gload. The Sox have a glut of bench players who bat lefty, and I think they really like Perez. Gload plays only one position adequately and won't get many starts. If his average falls off this year in limited action, they might just hand Everett a 1B glove and clear space on the 25-man roster by dumping Gload.

LVSoxFan
03-29-2005, 07:11 PM
In some respects I like Willie but in others he sort of epitomizes the 2004 White Sox to me: all potential and no execution.

For all that talk of crazy "Ozzy ball" and Ozzytude last year there were waaaay too many games where I saw, yes, Willie standing on first not even attempting to steal. Apparently he was waiting for somebody to homer him in, and we know how that went.

I'd rather see these guys trying to gain bases and failing then another year like last where speedy guys just stood there. Or couldn't bunt to save their lives (cough).

Although I did see Willie lay down a sweet one in ST this year.

Just my two cents.

If Ozuna's got the fire AND the batting average... well by all means, get his ass in there! (BTW .179 for Harris?! Ouch!)

wdelaney72
03-30-2005, 09:56 AM
In the long run, the odd man out could be Ross Gload.

Gload and Timo are the same story. They have PROVEN to be consistent and solid bench players. They will both definitely be on the team.

Ozzie has sang the praises of Gload on more than one occasion. He loves the way he plays. Gload will stay on the roster

Mohoney
03-30-2005, 12:45 PM
I don't know if it was posted, but either Carmen DeFalco or Bruce Levine said earlier today that both Ozuna and Willie Harris would make the team - one had nothing to do with the other.

This is what I don't understand. Willie can't play 3B or SS. Ozuna can. The decision should be simple.

Barring this speculated Davis trade, I would go with a bench of Davis, Gload, Ozuna, Perez, and Borchard. When Frank gets back, Borchard goes back to AAA. We don't need both Ozuna AND Willie.

Trade Willie, and the problem is solved.

Ol' No. 2
03-30-2005, 01:10 PM
This is what I don't understand. Willie can't play 3B or SS. Ozuna can. The decision should be simple.

Barring this speculated Davis trade, I would go with a bench of Davis, Gload, Ozuna, Perez, and Borchard. When Frank gets back, Borchard goes back to AAA. We don't need both Ozuna AND Willie.

Trade Willie, and the problem is solved.Borchard can't play 3B or SS either.:wink:

Mohoney
03-30-2005, 01:34 PM
Borchard can't play 3B or SS either.:wink:

True, but I want to make absolutely sure that Gload isn't used in the OF again, and I don't want Everett in the OF until we have to play him there when Frank comes back.

Plus, at least Borchard is showing a pulse out there this Spring. Willie is just death.

Ol' No. 2
03-30-2005, 01:43 PM
True, but I want to make absolutely sure that Gload isn't used in the OF again, and I don't want Everett in the OF until we have to play him there when Frank comes back.

Plus, at least Borchard is showing a pulse out there this Spring. Willie is just death.With all the gushing I keep hearing about Borchard's spring, I keep expecting him to be hitting .300. But .261 does not overwhelm me, especially when I consider his history. Harris has not hit well this spring, but he can play OF, too, and I think he gives them more of what they need in the short term than Borchard. Besides, Borchard probably has more of a future with the Sox than Harris, and will do better getting regular AB in AAA than sitting on the bench.

I may be the only one here who still thinks Harris may yet develop into a decent major league player. But as it looks now, whatever future Harris has, it's going to be somewhere other than the South Side. He has one option left, which actually adds to his tradeability. I suspect Kenny is keeping Willie on the 25-man roster for two reasons:

1. as insurance against the possibility Iguchi struggles early on, particularly against RHP where Willie isn't too bad, and
2. to try to boost his trade value.

If they option him to AAA, they use up his last option year, and he'll probably be harder to trade and have less value.