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View Full Version : looking at White Sox history as an semi-outsider


Fenway
03-22-2005, 02:14 PM
I have spent a good part of this winter reading anything I can get my hands on about the White Sox to get as good a feel about the team and fanbase as I can.

The White Sox encyclopedia was a main source ( however I must say that the author let his personal views on certain issues taint the book )

The author seemed soft on current ownership and IMHO seemed to bleme Veeck for much of the teams problems to this day. However I think it is fair to say that had Veeck not come back in 1976, the White Sox today would be in Toronto, Denver etc.

The Allyn brothers may have known their way around Lasalle St but seemed clueless about 35th, but who knows where the franchise would be today if Lou Comiskey had a will that made things clear.

I do agree with Lindberg that putting the White Sox in the AL West in 1969 was a disaster and was further complicated when Selig was able to get the Brewers into the AL East. The combination of a bad team in 69, the Cubs having their first good summer in decades ( and a battle with New York ) put the White Sox behind the eight ball.

As far as media perceptions, local and national.

The Cubs became a media darling on both a local and national level because of DAY baseball. Beat men and columnists could take their sweet time with no deadline to face and still enjoy Chicago at night.

On the South Side you had night baseball ( and deadline pressures ) and visiting reporters always complained they couldn't get a cab one hour after a game. How many national writers have ever wandered north or west of the park? ( my guess is few or none ) All they heard were the rumors.

Sportsvision ( and Harry moving 8 miles north ) just made the White Sox more invisible. ( It was compounded by WGN becoming a superstation at the same time )

The late Tim Weigel once talked to me for an hour about the Sox/Cubs. He knew the Sox didn't get a fair shake but explained how it was a vicious circle.
Ratings would show more Cubs fans than Sox fans so 10 PM sports would lead with the Cubs more often station brass assumed that is what people wanted to see. Print is another kettle of fish. The Tribune was pro Cub before they owned the team....

Anyhow that is how I see the war between North and South

HITMEN OF 77
03-22-2005, 02:33 PM
The Allyn brothers may have known their way around Lasalle St but seemed clueless about 35th


That may be true but, John Allyn saved the team from moving when he bought out his brother and suffered through some real tough years with the Sox, fan attendance wise, money wise and contention wise.

VeeckAsInWreck
03-22-2005, 02:44 PM
Yup, that about sums it up.

Nellie_Fox
03-22-2005, 02:46 PM
There have been so many times we have faced the threats of a team relocation that I get them confused, but I'm pretty sure it was Veeck who looked into moving the team to Denver.

Ol' No. 2
03-22-2005, 02:48 PM
I have spent a good part of this winter reading anything I can get my hands on about the White Sox to get as good a feel about the team and fanbase as I can.

The White Sox encyclopedia was a main source ( however I must say that the author let his personal views on certain issues taint the book )

The author seemed soft on current ownership and IMHO seemed to bleme Veeck for much of the teams problems to this day. However I think it is fair to say that had Veeck not come back in 1976, the White Sox today would be in Toronto, Denver etc.

The Allyn brothers may have known their way around Lasalle St but seemed clueless about 35th, but who knows where the franchise would be today if Lou Comiskey had a will that made things clear.

I do agree with Lindberg that putting the White Sox in the AL West in 1969 was a disaster and was further complicated when Selig was able to get the Brewers into the AL East. The combination of a bad team in 69, the Cubs having their first good summer in decades ( and a battle with New York ) put the White Sox behind the eight ball.

As far as media perceptions, local and national.

The Cubs became a media darling on both a local and national level because of DAY baseball. Beat men and columnists could take their sweet time with no deadline to face and still enjoy Chicago at night.

On the South Side you had night baseball ( and deadline pressures ) and visiting reporters always complained they couldn't get a cab one hour after a game. How many national writers have ever wandered north or west of the park? ( my guess is few or none ) All they heard were the rumors.

Sportsvision ( and Harry moving 8 miles north ) just made the White Sox more invisible. ( It was compounded by WGN becoming a superstation at the same time )

The late Tim Weigel once talked to me for an hour about the Sox/Cubs. He knew the Sox didn't get a fair shake but explained how it was a vicious circle.
Ratings would show more Cubs fans than Sox fans so 10 PM sports would lead with the Cubs more often station brass assumed that is what people wanted to see. Print is another kettle of fish. The Tribune was pro Cub before they owned the team....

Anyhow that is how I see the war between North and SouthThe only thing I would add is the immense power of the Tribune/WGN marketing behemoth. The Sox moved to Sportsvision and ceded WGN to the Cubs just about the time WGN became a superstation, broadcasting Cubs games nationwide. Later, the Trib/WGN used this to their advantage. Until the last few years, only a small number of Sox games were on WGN, but all or nearly all Cubs games were.

It's nice to hear Weigel being candid about the bias. Most media types respond to bias allegations as follows:

1. We're not biased, and
2. Besides, it's justified.

VeeckAsInWreck
03-22-2005, 02:56 PM
There have been so many times we have faced the threats of a team relocation that I get them confused, but I'm pretty sure it was Veeck who looked into moving the team to Denver.

Couldn't have been, because I read somewhere (sorry I can't remember) that John Allyn sold Veeck the team only because he wanted to be sure that the Sox would stay in Chicago.

Fenway
03-22-2005, 03:01 PM
Just to clarify what I feel was the author putting his on personal slant on history.

He wrote that Joe Horlen (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/horlejo01.shtml) was robbed of the 1967 Cy Young by Jim Lonborg (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/lonboji01.shtml). Certainly Horlen's ERA of 2.06 far surpassed Lonborg's 3.16 and Horlen's 6 shutouts certainly speak volumes. Horlen more than anyone kept the hitless wonders alive and you could argue that he was as as valuable to the White Sox as Yaz was to Boston.

BUT Horlen failed in Kansas City to win his 20th in a game the White Sox HAD to win after losing the first game of a doubleheader. Lonborg in turn did win his final game against the Twins ( though he had lost the same afternoon as Horlen's last start )

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B09272KC11967.htm

If the Tigers had won Earl Wilson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wilsoea01.shtml) may well have won the Cy Young.

I don't think Horlen was robbed, it came down to who won the pennant that year. It could have been any one of the 3.

Fenway
03-22-2005, 03:10 PM
Couldn't have been, because I read somewhere (sorry I can't remember) that John Allyn sold Veeck the team only because he wanted to be sure that the Sox would stay in Chicago.

By 1979 Veeck was running out of cash and he did discuss moving the team to Denver with oilman Marvin Davis. Remember Mayor Daley had died and Chicago politics were all screwed up. Jane Byrne became Mayor in 1979 and I don't think the White Sox were a major issue with her.

Veeck then found a savior in Debartolo but Bowie Kuhn and company wanted no part of the boys from Youngstown. Enter JR and EE.

Honestly I have a gut feeling after Disco Night, Veeck didn't care anymore.

I want Mags back
03-22-2005, 04:16 PM
looking at White Sox history as an semi-outsider (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=630357#post630357)



Fenway I believe u r a semi-outsider.

S is not a vowel or vowel sound (like an hour) and therefore u use just an a before a consenance

I love making fun of BAH-STON

Ol' No. 2
03-22-2005, 04:24 PM
Fenway I believe u r a semi-outsider.

S is not a vowel or vowel sound (like an hour) and therefore u use just an a before a consenance

I love making fun of BAH-STON
http://www.emedicine.com/shared/pub/cotw/0032.jpg Ahhhh!! My eyes!!!!!

jabrch
03-22-2005, 04:36 PM
Fenway I believe u r a semi-outsider.

S is not a vowel or vowel sound (like an hour) and therefore u use just an a before a consenance

I love making fun of BAH-STON

:tealpolice:
I think we have some work to do boys...


:tealtutor:
Teal is easy to read. Cyan is BLINDING.

Lip Man 1
03-22-2005, 05:17 PM
Fenway:

Submitted for your edification...from Joe Horlen's interview at WSI:

ML: The Sox then went on their final road trip. Eight games total. They won two of three in Anaheim, and two of three in Cleveland. On September 24th, after winning 3-1, the Sox stood at 89-68, one game out, with five games left, two at Kansas City then three at home to Washington. Mike Andrews told me in his interview that when the Red Sox looked at who the Sox had left to play, they felt it was all over, that the pennant would fly in Chicago, but when you guys got to the stadium Tuesday night in K.C. it was raining, the game was cancelled and that changed everything didn’t it?

JH: “It did. We just came out flat. We didn’t hit the ball.” (Author’s Note: The Sox suffered a disastrous double header loss by the scores of 5-2 and 4-0. In the two games the Sox made three errors and only collected a total of seven hits. Gary Peters took the loss in game #1 despite striking out ten in 5.2 innings. He allowed only one earned run. Horlen allowed three runs in six innings of work in game #2. He also got tagged with the loss.)

ML: The common perception is that you and Gary didn’t pitch well but the numbers say otherwise. What seems to have cost the Sox was defense and hitting. Also I discovered that you guys had in fact, three days off from the time the game ended that Sunday in Cleveland until Wednesday night when you started game one in Kansas City. That type of layoff in a pennant race is unheard off. Was that a factor?

JH: “It could have been. We had just started taking batting practice Tuesday night when a big storm hit the Kansas City area and washed everything out.”

ML: The Sox returned home still with a chance although they were going to need help. The final series with Washington opened on Friday night so you guys had still another day off. In what perfectly defines the luck of this franchise, the team was eliminated when Tommy John lost 1-0. The loss was caused by a pop up that couldn’t be caught in the first inning due to a camera barrier set up by NBC in case the Sox hosted the World Series. (Author’s Note: The play took place in the first inning when Senators right fielder Fred Valentine, hit the pop up that Sox first baseman Tommy McCraw couldn’t reach due to the camera wall. On the very next pitch, Valentine singled in the only run of the game.) What was the mood in the locker room afterwards, knowing you came so close and many of you guys had already experienced the disappointment of the 1964 chase.

JH: “We were beat. We knew it. It was simply a question of playing the final two games. It was our lowest point mentally in the season. To be that close....”

“I pitched the final game of the year trying to get my 20th win. In fact I singled in two runs and we were leading 2-1 heading into the 7th, then Tommy (John) came in. I remember Washington tied the game when someone hit a ground ball down the line, Tommy (McCraw) picked it up, tagged the guy then dropped the ball! (Author’s Note: With two outs in the 7th, future Sox outfielder Ed ‘The Creeper’ Stroud bounced the ball down the line to McCraw. Bob Locker was the Sox pitcher. When McCraw dropped it, Ken McMullen scored the tying run. McMullen led off the 7th inning with a double off Horlen. Washington would wind up winning 4-3.) So I never did that the win.

ML: I guess the last disappointment to you personally came when you lost the Cy Young Award to Boston’s Jim Lonborg even through your numbers were statically better in most categories. What was your reaction when you got the news?

JH: “I didn’t even know the results until I heard about them. I wasn’t even thinking about winning. I did find out though that one of the reasons I didn’t win the award is because one of the team’s own writers didn’t vote for me. Every city that had a team had two writers who were allowed to vote. But this person didn’t vote for me and I think I remember why.”

“A few years before, I think, I was pitching in Los Angeles and I was really struggling. The Sox got me some runs early and it was something like 5-3 or 6-4 in the last of the 5th inning. Al Lopez then came out and replaced me before I could finish the inning and maybe get the win. I’m back in the clubhouse and this writer comes up to me and asks ‘so how pissed off are you that Lopez took you out early?’ I told him that ‘I’m not pissed off but disappointed because I wish I could have finished the inning and maybe got the win.’ So I’m changing clothes when a minute or so later Lopez comes out of his office, he starts pushing me into my locker and calling me every name in the book. I said, ‘Al, what’s wrong?’ He starts shouting ‘I’m the guy who’s running this team and I’ll decide who plays you blankety blank!’ ‘So and So (name of writer) said that you were pissed off that I took you out.’ I said ‘Al I am not pissed off, I told that guy I was disappointed that I couldn’t finish the inning and maybe get the win.’ That calmed Al down a bit although he was still saying ‘well I’m the guy who makes those decisions.’

“I guess that Al then went back to the writer and got all over him. That’s probably why he didn’t vote for me. All I know is that writer got a lot of guys in trouble that way.” (Author’s Note: In 1967 Horlen won 19 games, led the league with six shutouts and led the league with a 2.06 ERA. He started 35 games and threw 258 innings. Lonborg led the league with 22 wins, strikeouts with 246 and started 39 games. He threw 273 innings with an ERA of 3.18. Joe told me the name of the writer who didn’t vote for him under the promise that I would not reveal it in this interview. Older Sox fans would certainly recognize the individual in question.)

Lonborg won the award because the Red Sox did amazingly better then they were expected to (unlike the White Sox who were having their 17th straight winning season) and the fact that one of Chicago's own writers didn't vote for Joe. Just my opinion having seen both guys pitch (and Lonborg as late as 1972 when he was with Milwaukee) but Jim couldn't make a pimple on Joe's read end as far as ability or career is concerned.

Lip

VeeckAsInWreck
03-22-2005, 05:20 PM
By 1979 Veeck was running out of cash and he did discuss moving the team to Denver with oilman Marvin Davis. Remember Mayor Daley had died and Chicago politics were all screwed up. Jane Byrne became Mayor in 1979 and I don't think the White Sox were a major issue with her.

Veeck then found a savior in Debartolo but Bowie Kuhn and company wanted no part of the boys from Youngstown. Enter JR and EE.

Honestly I have a gut feeling after Disco Night, Veeck didn't care anymore.

Thanks for clarifying. In that book, is there any mention about the possibility that Charlie Finley wanted to move the A's to Chicago and have them play in Comiskey Park?

Lip Man 1
03-22-2005, 05:23 PM
Veeck:

That was a fact. If Veeck sold the Sox to the league and they were moved to Seattle (to end King County's lawsuit against MLB) Finley was ready to pull up stakes and take the A's to the South Side.

Charlie tried to buy the Sox back in the late 50's and put up significantly more money then anyone else at the time including Veeck. For some reason he didn't get the team and would up getting the K.C. A's a few years later. Finley was also from Crown Point, Indiana so he knew the Chicago area very well.

Lip

mcfish
03-22-2005, 05:30 PM
Fenway I believe u r a semi-outsider.

S is not a vowel or vowel sound (like an hour) and therefore u use just an a before a consenance

I love making fun of BAH-STONIn a post to point out a minute grammar mistake, you made multiple grammar mistakes, a few misspellings, awful internet abbreviations, and you even threw in a blinding non-teal color to boot (which I couldn't even look at in my quoting of your post, so I changed it). I am flabbergasted and a little scared. :(:

VeeckAsInWreck
03-22-2005, 05:35 PM
Thanks Lip,

Interesting to think what could have been. But of course, by the late Seventies the A's had already lost all of their big stars, but still. We would probably be having this conversation at athleticsinteractive.com :?:

HITMEN OF 77
03-22-2005, 06:40 PM
Couldn't have been, because I read somewhere (sorry I can't remember) that John Allyn sold Veeck the team only because he wanted to be sure that the Sox would stay in Chicago.

That is correct. Allyn was out of money by the mid 70's after suffering with the Sox through 68-70.

Fenway
03-22-2005, 08:00 PM
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/B/Bo/Boston_accent_phonology.htm


Just to be clear on proper english

whitesoxwilkes
03-22-2005, 09:01 PM
Fenway I believe u r a semi-outsider.

S is not a vowel or vowel sound (like an hour) and therefore u use just an a before a consenance

I love making fun of BAH-STON

What's a consenance? Is that l33tspeak for "consonant?"

Seriously guys, the brutal grammar is killing us. Please spell check your posts.

batmanZoSo
03-23-2005, 12:33 AM
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/B/Bo/Boston_accent_phonology.htm


Just to be clear on proper english

Let me guess how you botched the title...

You first intended to write "as an outsider," but decided to go with "semi-outsider." While you corrected that, you forgot to go back and change "an" to "a."

How's my aim? :cool:

Medford Bobby
03-23-2005, 01:16 AM
:(: I wonder if the team had gone up for sale a year later, would the impending changes in free agency changed the teams fate, with some one else picking up the Sox as Veeck may have seen economics were gonna change everything..:?:



I remember by mid 1978 everyone realized this Sox team was gonna suck and there was no carry over of the great 77 team as Veeck could not keep any free agents. I think by then, Veeck was already getting ready to sell.........:whiner:

mcfish
03-23-2005, 08:54 AM
Let me guess how you botched the title...

You first intended to write "as an outsider," but decided to go with "semi-outsider." While you corrected that, you forgot to go back and change "an" to "a."

How's my aim? :cool:I guess that's what happens when you change a word that starts with a vowel to a word that starts with a consenance. :cool:

Fenway
03-23-2005, 01:35 PM
Let me guess how you botched the title...

You first intended to write "as an outsider," but decided to go with "semi-outsider." While you corrected that, you forgot to go back and change "an" to "a."

How's my aim? :cool:

you read my mind

give that man a baseball