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gosox41
03-21-2005, 05:30 AM
There's a story (not very interesting) behind this, but I just wondered who people thought had the most pitching talent to be between Freddy Garcia and Jose Contreras. This is just based on natural ability to pitch, not who has had a more successful career.


To break it down, people rave about Jose's stuff and how he should be a big winner and #1 type starter but he hasn't come close. Some say the ability is there. Freddy is also highly regarded but has had a lot more success.


Bob

beck72
03-21-2005, 05:41 AM
I think Contreras has better stuff than Garcia, certainly his FB and forkball. Yet Freddy knows how to pitch far better than Jose. If Contreras could learn how to pitch 6,7 innings without his best stuff [instead of not lasting past the 3rd inning], he'll be fine.

mdep524
03-21-2005, 12:36 PM
IMO, "stuff" and radar guns are way overrated. Poise and smarts are what counts.

rwcescato
03-21-2005, 12:57 PM
IMO, "stuff" and radar guns are way overrated. Poise and smarts are what counts.

I agree with that. As steve stone has said, you are a pitcher not a thrower. If they wanted you to be a thrower then the name of your position would be thrower. The best pitcher aren't always the most raw talented.

Chicago83
03-21-2005, 02:17 PM
IMO, "stuff" and radar guns are way overrated. Poise and smarts are what counts.

Well said.

gosox41
03-21-2005, 02:22 PM
I think Contreras has better stuff than Garcia, certainly his FB and forkball. Yet Freddy knows how to pitch far better than Jose. If Contreras could learn how to pitch 6,7 innings without his best stuff [instead of not lasting past the 3rd inning], he'll be fine.

So in terms of physical ability Contreras has more then Freddy but Freddy has better results because he's smarter about pitching.

I tend to agree. Which leads me to the next question, do you think Contreras will get it figured out for this season?


Bob

Foulke You
03-21-2005, 02:47 PM
Both pitchers have electric stuff but obviously, Freddy knows how to pitch better. Contreras has the best splitter I've seen a Sox pitcher throw since Jack McDowell but he falls in love with it and doesn't use his fastball well enough to setup his splitter. He also has trouble locating it at times which is why he is feast or famine on the mound. If he is locating his splitter, he dominates, if he isn't, he gets rocked because they sit dead red on his fastball. Freddy does a great job locating his fastball to setup his filthy slider and good changeup. This is why Freddy strikes out a whole lot more batters than Contreras and is more consistent too.

Don Cooper and Hawk Harrelson believe that Jose needs to use his regular fastball more to set up his splitter, not the other way around as Jose is doing now. However, I heard El Duque was encouraging Contreras to keep using the splitter more if that is what he is comfortable with, however, he has been telling him he needs to locate them better if he plans on keeping that as his primary pitch. Seems like sound advice from El Duque.

gosox41
03-21-2005, 03:39 PM
Both pitchers have electric stuff but obviously, Freddy knows how to pitch better. Contreras has the best splitter I've seen a Sox pitcher throw since Jack McDowell but he falls in love with it and doesn't use his fastball well enough to setup his splitter. He also has trouble locating it at times which is why he is feast or famine on the mound. If he is locating his splitter, he dominates, if he isn't, he gets rocked because they sit dead red on his fastball. Freddy does a great job locating his fastball to setup his filthy slider and good changeup. This is why Freddy strikes out a whole lot more batters than Contreras and is more consistent too.

Don Cooper and Hawk Harrelson believe that Jose needs to use his regular fastball more to set up his splitter, not the other way around as Jose is doing now. However, I heard El Duque was encouraging Contreras to keep using the splitter more if that is what he is comfortable with, however, he has been telling him he needs to locate them better if he plans on keeping that as his primary pitch. Seems like sound advice from El Duque.


Based on what I've heard, big things are expected out of Contreras this year from KW.

KW seems to think very highly of him which is why I brought up this question.

I just wanted to get people's opinions on Jose now. There's no doubt the talent is there. But is he coachable? Can he change and use his fastball or take other suggestions. If so it sounds like KW sees him as the ace of the staff. If he doesn't do that there are expectations of him to win about 15 games just on talent alone.

Keep in mind, this isn't my opinion. My opinion is he does have huge potential to be an 18-20 game winner but I don't think he posseses the coachability (if that's a word) to take it to the next level. Not only do I think he has the ability to win that many games, but he should have a much lower ERA and WHIP. If he does then I can see 18-20 wins. If he reverts to his former self I see a guy who is going to have a 5+ERA and 10-12 wins. If he does get to the magical 15 win barrier with a 5+ ERA I'm guessing he's lacking in quality starts and the offense would be a big reason for those starts (like Colon for the 2004 Angels).


Basically I'm not as high on him as KW. But this will be an interesting test of KW, his scouts, and his coaches to see if they can turn Jose ino the quality of pitcher other scouts have been raving about.


Bob

PAPChiSox729
03-22-2005, 07:01 PM
IMO, "stuff" and radar guns are way overrated. Poise and smarts are what counts.

Stuff, Radar Guns: Kerry Wood
Poise, smarts: Mark Buehrle

Buehrle > Wood
:cool:

Banix12
03-22-2005, 07:42 PM
Keep in mind, this isn't my opinion. My opinion is he does have huge potential to be an 18-20 game winner but I don't think he posseses the coachability (if that's a word) to take it to the next level. Not only do I think he has the ability to win that many games, but he should have a much lower ERA and WHIP. If he does then I can see 18-20 wins. If he reverts to his former self I see a guy who is going to have a 5+ERA and 10-12 wins. If he does get to the magical 15 win barrier with a 5+ ERA I'm guessing he's lacking in quality starts and the offense would be a big reason for those starts (like Colon for the 2004 Angels).

I've said this before in other threads. Contreras can be a 15-20 game winner and still have that ERA over 5. Mostly because Jose is prone to extremes. When he is off, he gets rocked. usually giving up around 7-10 runs in the first three innings. That ends up being roughly 1/3 of the time and last year in those starts his collective ERA was over 13. The other 2/3rds he is on fire, usually giving up about 0-3 runs over about 6-7 innings per start. In those starts last season his ERA was under 3. If he makes all his starts this season and this trend continues he'll probably win at least 15-17 depending on run support, though I guarantee he'll lose at least 10-12

This upcoming season is only going to be his second full season in the major leagues, I think a lot of people forget that even though he is 33, he's still learning the league. Give it time.

CleeFan101
03-22-2005, 07:49 PM
IMO, "stuff" and radar guns are way overrated. Poise and smarts are what counts.


That said a pitcher who has great stuff along to go with the poise and smarts is what makes you a hall of famer. Like RJ for example.

Daver
03-22-2005, 07:56 PM
The biggest difference between the two is mound presence. Garcia does not let what happened with the previous batter afftect his approach towards the next hitter, where Contraes will.

In terms of stuff, the two are close to equal, but pitching well is about 75% mental, which is why it is important to have a catcher that can handle a pitching staff well, and that is not just calling pitches, but knowing where the pitcher is struggling that day and setting up to his strength instead of his weakness.

Fake Chet Lemon
03-22-2005, 08:09 PM
Garcia wins when the heat is on. He seems to come up big in money games, especially late in the year.

FightingBillini
03-22-2005, 08:10 PM
Stuff, Radar Guns: Kerry Wood
Poise, smarts: Mark Buehrle

Buehrle > Wood
:cool:

I think you mean:
Buehrle >>>Wood
:cool:

beck72
03-23-2005, 05:57 AM
So in terms of physical ability Contreras has more then Freddy but Freddy has better results because he's smarter about pitching.

I tend to agree. Which leads me to the next question, do you think Contreras will get it figured out for this season?


Bob
I think the key for Contreras is not giving up the big inning [like yesterday, got in trouble but only allowed 1 run] and being aggressive [pitching inside, throwing his FB more]. If he can do those two things consistently, he'll be more than fine

soxfan43
03-23-2005, 01:47 PM
I think not being in the spotlight of NY will help Jose. PLus he never really got to play much with El Duque on the Yanks, I think having him around will help him off the field, as will having his family out of Cuba. I bet he wins 12-15 games and hopefully El Duque wins 10-12.

PAPChiSox729
03-23-2005, 06:20 PM
I think not being in the spotlight of NY will help Jose. PLus he never really got to play much with El Duque on the Yanks, I think having him around will help him off the field, as will having his family out of Cuba. I bet he wins 12-15 games and hopefully El Duque wins 10-12.

It seemed like whenever guys got on, then he would start to worry and lose his composure. Hopefully being out of NY will help stop that.

santo=dorf
03-24-2005, 10:42 AM
If he does get to the magical 15 win barrier with a 5+ ERA I'm guessing he's lacking in quality starts and the offense would be a big reason for those starts (like Colon for the 2004 Angels).

That's not entirely true.

Jose was similiar to Bartolo last year because they would have some great outings, and have some absolutely horrid outings. It's not like they would go out and give up 5 runs every time they pitched and get a victory depending on the offense. It was more like having a great outing one day, then giving up 7 runs in less than 2 innings the next.

Bartolo had an ERA of 3.63 in the second half last year, but because his first half was so bad (6.38 ERA,) he could never get his ERA back under 5.