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View Full Version : Brandon McCarthy on South Side to Start Season?


JUribe1989
03-17-2005, 08:07 PM
I have heard rumors that he will make the team as a long reliever. Did anyone else hear this or does anyone else thing he should make the team as a long reliever? I think he should definitely be given a roster spot.

Randar68
03-17-2005, 08:10 PM
I have heard rumors that he will make the team as a long reliever. Did anyone else hear this or does anyone else thing he should make the team as a long reliever? I think he should definitely be given a roster spot.

HIGHLY unlikely.

MRKARNO
03-17-2005, 08:14 PM
I think he deserves a roster spot too...on the Charlotte Knights roster.

Banix12
03-17-2005, 08:18 PM
We already have four right handers in the bullpen. I would rather him start in the minors and have him stretched out and ready for if we need him to start for the big club sometime during the season

HomeFish
03-17-2005, 08:37 PM
Does this organization get some sort of high from rushing pitching prospects?

balke
03-17-2005, 08:41 PM
Does this organization get some sort of high from rushing pitching prospects?

They like to get it out of our heads early that we have anything good in the minors. Squash those dreams boys, they're getting optimisitic!

zach074
03-17-2005, 09:06 PM
They should not rush him, this guy will be good but not right now.

DrCrawdad
03-17-2005, 09:22 PM
Jeez, let the kid get regular experience as a starting pitcher down in AAA. Call McCarthy up when the need arises in the rotation. Don't let him rot in the pen waiting to come in and mop up. Garland did a stint in the pen. We all know how that MLB experience helped him.

chisox06
03-17-2005, 09:32 PM
Jeez, let the kid get regular experience as a starting pitcher down in AAA. Call McCarthy up when the need arises in the rotation. Don't let him rot in the pen waiting to come in and mop up. Garland did a stint in the pen. We all know how that MLB experience helped him.

couldnt agree more. Let him pitch in AAA and not rot in the bullpen, the kid is 21 years old, his time will come no doubt about that, but let him get that expierence that he needs.

ondafarm
03-17-2005, 09:42 PM
Jeez, let the kid get regular experience as a starting pitcher down in AAA. Call McCarthy up when the need arises in the rotation. Don't let him rot in the pen waiting to come in and mop up. Garland did a stint in the pen. We all know how that MLB experience helped him.

Hate to disagree with you DrC. but I think McCarthy will be at AA not AAA to start this season. On the other hand, I completely agree with you on him playing minor league ball this season. Several wise old pitcher developers, including Paul Richards (and shame on you if you don't know who he is) have suggested that a youngster should pitch 500 innings in the minors before coming to the majors. That's two solid seasons plus. If by some chance the Sox have one of their starting pitchers fail this year then McCarthy might get his chance this year, but I think he's most likely only a September call up and likely to start for us in 2006.

Fake Chet Lemon
03-17-2005, 09:56 PM
Kenny built a nice staff, no reason to rush the kid.

Soxfest
03-17-2005, 10:10 PM
He needs to start every 5 days makes no sense to have him sit as a LR

soxfanforlife28
03-17-2005, 10:14 PM
I have heard rumors that he will make the team as a long reliever. Did anyone else hear this or does anyone else thing he should make the team as a long reliever? I think he should definitely be given a roster spot.Nah i doubt that. I just heard comments that he might come up in the later of the season if things dont pan out for the other pitchers. No doubt we have a good arm in are system. Bought dam time. Seein the cubs fans ive been dealing with been giving are team recognition. Just hope that what rotation we are going into the season holds up. Cuz im thinkin this is garlands last chance. And if he dont pan out we might see mccarthy.......

jake27
03-17-2005, 10:39 PM
He needs to start every 5 days makes no sense to have him sit as a LR
why? i understand wher epeople are coming form. but i think we can all agree that it would be better having him come out of the pen insted of someone like neal cotts (no trying to bash cotts here, i think that mccatrhy is better though). they are pitchers, they throw a ball! thats it! and next year, i would like a 22 yr old w/ big league experience than a 22 yr old with no major league experience. what are the chances that 1-5 in the sox rotation will stay healthy the entire year? he iwll get his starts and learn the big league hitters and contuine working on stuff. doesnt everyone want the best bullpen possible? wouldnt it be better with mccarthy than with him in it?

jake27
03-17-2005, 10:42 PM
couldnt agree more. Let him pitch in AAA and not rot in the bullpen, the kid is 21 years old, his time will come no doubt about that, but let him get that expierence that he needs.

what expierence? do you mean expierence with hitters whom half will never make the big leagues? what expierence is that? he has been pitching his whole like, i think he knows how things work being a pitcher. if he feels ready to come up (he does) then we should give im a shot. he is the best judge of if hes ready or not

MRKARNO
03-17-2005, 10:43 PM
why? i understand wher epeople are coming form. but i think we can all agree that it would be better having him come out of the pen insted of someone like neal cotts (no trying to bash cotts here, i think that mccatrhy is better though). they are pitchers, they throw a ball! thats it! and next year, i would like a 22 yr old w/ big league experience than a 22 yr old with no major league experience. what are the chances that 1-5 in the sox rotation will stay healthy the entire year? he iwll get his starts and learn the big league hitters and contuine working on stuff. doesnt everyone want the best bullpen possible? wouldnt it be better with mccarthy than with him in it?

No, no, no, no.

You want to develop your amazing pitching prospect to the best of your ability so as to ensure that he eventually acheives what he is able to acheive in the most timely manner possible while ensuring regular work. The different between McCarthy and Cotts isn't large enough to warrent this and McCarthy's pitched 4 regular season games above the A-level. He needs to work more in the minors before we promote him. He can start at AAA, but it would be foolish to bring him to Chicago with the intention of using him as a reliever at first. He can still be just a phonecall and a planeride away in Charlotte, or even Birmingham.

And by the way: palsee dnot slepl lkie tihs.

jake27
03-17-2005, 10:46 PM
haha another post (things just keep popping in my head). we all (well most) think the white sox can win the divison. i dont get why anyone would want to have not as good of a bullpen even though you have the opportunity to have a better one with maccarthy? he showed he can handle pressure well (1st sox training camp, meeting your baseball idol big frank, and having all eyes on you). what else does he have to do to make people beleive he can handle it in the majors this year?

MRKARNO
03-17-2005, 10:49 PM
what else does he have to do to make people beleive he can handle it in the majors this year?

The issue is also: whom would he replace? Garland is decent and has earned his rotation spot. El Duque was excellent last year. Contreras is getting paid 6-8 million and he's not replacing Buehrle or Garica. It will take a disaster or injury from one of those three to get him into the rotation.

jake27
03-17-2005, 10:51 PM
No, no, no, no.

You want to develop your amazing pitching prospect to the best of your ability so as to ensure that he eventually acheives what he is able to acheive in the most timely manner possible while ensuring regular work. The different between McCarthy and Cotts isn't large enough to warrent this and McCarthy's pitched 4 regular season games above the A-level. He needs to work more in the minors before we promote him. He can start at AAA, but it would be foolish to bring him to Chicago with the intention of using him as a reliever at first. He can still be just a phonecall and a planeride away in Charlotte, or even Birmingham.

pitching coaches develop pitchers. and our pitching coach is bette rthan whoever they have in AAA or AA due to the fact hes in the majors and hes not. so he will learn more about pitching in the majors because he is...
A.) with a major league pitching coach,not a minor league one
B.) learn the hitters in the majors insted of in the minors where half will never make the majors
c.) he will learn things from other BIG LEAGUE pitchers

its not like he will ONLY be throwing every 4 or 5 days hwne they run him out there to pitch, he will get in as much work in practice if not more than he would in AAA or AA.

let me just ask all of you this... what is your definition of "developing" a pitcher and what would mccarthy have to develop that he couldnt develop in the majors but could in the minors

Randar68
03-17-2005, 10:51 PM
The issue is also: whom would he replace? Garland is decent and has earned his rotation spot. El Duque was excellent last year. Contreras is getting paid 6-8 million and he's not replacing Buehrle or Garica. It will take a disaster or injury from one of those three to get him into the rotation.

You guys are saints for actually trying to explain these siimple things to this guy...

I'm just sitting here shaking my head...

jake27
03-17-2005, 10:53 PM
The issue is also: whom would he replace? Garland is decent and has earned his rotation spot. El Duque was excellent last year. Contreras is getting paid 6-8 million and he's not replacing Buehrle or Garica. It will take a disaster or injury from one of those three to get him into the rotation.

in the bullpen, he wouldnt start here, im syaing he would be a long reliver... cotts he would replace i would say

jake27
03-17-2005, 10:56 PM
mccarthy is better than cotts, at leats in my opinion. if the coaches and staff dont feel talent wise hes not yet, then fine. whoeve rit is, you want YOUR BEST in the majors. we arent rebuilding or anything, we are going for it all.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-17-2005, 10:56 PM
I'd just like to see the White Sox keep him down in the minors to continue to develop him as a starter. With our additions to both the starting rotation AND the bullpen, there's not a real big need for McCarthy to be rushed up. I just don't want the same thing to happen to McCarthy that happened with Neal Cotts. After acquiring him in the Koch deal, he quickly became one of the most hyped up prospects in the white sox minor leagues, and he was rushed up to the big leagues from AA to start in the majors. His stint as a starter didn't exactly go well, mainly the controversial start in New York. Now he's the left handed mop up reliever for the White Sox and when we used him as a spot starter in 2004 vs the Twins, he just couldn't handle being a starter because he was turned into an long reliever.

I KNOW they aren't the same pitchers, I just don't want a similar thing to happen since McCarthy looks like he could be great..

jake27
03-17-2005, 11:00 PM
I'd just like to see the White Sox keep him down in the minors to continue to develop him as a starter.

again i ask, what is "developing" a pitcher exactly? and what cant mccarthy develop in the majors but could in the minors?

MRKARNO
03-17-2005, 11:07 PM
You guys are saints for actually trying to explain these siimple things to this guy...

I'm just sitting here shaking my head...

Well someone has to do it. I figured that you had already turned over a buffet table in anger.

:KW

"No, that's my tactic!"

:)

Ol' No. 2
03-17-2005, 11:10 PM
Well someone has to do it. I figured that you had already turned over a buffet table in anger.

:KW

"No, that's my tactic!"

:)I'm just sitting here wondering if he's typing with mittens on.:o:

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-17-2005, 11:10 PM
again i ask, what is "developing" a pitcher exactly? and what cant mccarthy develop in the majors but could in the minors?
If he doesn't have the ability to start every 5 days in the majors, which he won't, he won't be able to develop as a starting pitcher. He could still develop as a great reliever, but I believe he has much more upside as a starting pitcher in the future. If McCarthy were to pitch long relief, he won't get stretched out like he would starting each 5 games in AA/AAA. We already have RHP relievers in Takatsu, Politte, Vizcaino, and Hermanson. I don't think McCarthy would get enough work to warrant him a spot in the MLB. I don't want McCarthy's potential as a starter to be wasted away sitting in the bullpen..

MRKARNO
03-17-2005, 11:10 PM
again i ask, what is "developing" a pitcher exactly? and what cant mccarthy develop in the majors but could in the minors?

There's no room for him in the rotation. Find an open spot:

Buehrle
Garcia
Contreras
El Duque
Garland

You can't. That means he would have to pitch in the bullpen.

In the bullpen you can't get regular work and you face less batters. The more batters you face, the better. The more work you get in, the better. That's the whole point of the minors. You can't develop if you dont actually get work in and his pitching more than 70 innings out of the pen on the year would be unlikely while he could get 200 in the rotation. It's that simple.

jake27
03-17-2005, 11:18 PM
he has been a starter his whole life, he doesnt need to "learn" how to pitch many innings. you just do it. if he was called upon to start next year he has the winter and spring training to "learn" how to pitch more innings. again he can throw as much as a regular pitcher would, if not more in practice and throwing in the pen. so his arm endurance (if thats how you say it) can go up in the majors.

also... what does he prove if he faces some minor league hitters? he learns nothing! id rather have him face less major league hitters, learn about the guys who he will be seeing for years to come than some minor league guy. he will also learn more from cooper than whoever the AAA coach is... so heres whats happening

1.) he will learn things from don cooper, a major league pitching coach than whoever is at AAA
2.) he can throw just as much in practice here, if not more, than in AAA
3.) he will learn about big league hitters that he will be facing for years to come rather than minor league guys where a few will be lucky to make the majors

Daver
03-17-2005, 11:23 PM
This whole thread is ridiculous to say the least.

Randar68
03-17-2005, 11:24 PM
he has been a starter his whole life, he doesnt need to "learn" how to pitch many innings. you just do it.

Doesn't this end the discussion? Talk about naive.

:whoflungpoo

Randar68
03-17-2005, 11:25 PM
This whole thread is ridiculous to say the least.

I've been trying to bite my tongue, but the preposterousness (LOL!) of these posts just multiplies with each new post... unreal. This guy is in college? Scary.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-17-2005, 11:29 PM
There's not even room for McCarthy in the bullpen! There are 4 RHP in Takatsu, Hermanson, Politte, and Vizcaino. All of them are making enough money that they won't be released to make room for McCarthy..

jake27
03-17-2005, 11:33 PM
There's not even room for McCarthy in the bullpen! There are 4 RHP in Takatsu, Hermanson, Politte, and Vizcaino. All of them are making enough money that they won't be released to make room for McCarthy..

i dont think you need a lefty in the pen. id rather have a righty who is better than a lefty who is worse. if the righty can get people out better than the lefty, then thats all you need.

and rander, i keep coming up with ideas so i post them, nothing wrong with that

Ol' No. 2
03-17-2005, 11:36 PM
i dont think you need a lefty in the pen. id rather have a righty who is better than a lefty who is worse. if the righty can get people out better than the lefty, then thats all you need.

and rander, i keep coming up with ideas so i post them, nothing wrong with that:threadrules: I haven't laughed this hard in days.:kneeslap:

minastirith67
03-17-2005, 11:46 PM
i dont think you need a lefty in the pen. id rather have a righty who is better than a lefty who is worse. if the righty can get people out better than the lefty, then thats all you need.

and rander, i keep coming up with ideas so i post them, nothing wrong with that

:roflmao::roflmao:

I guess there are some intelligent Sox fans around here...

jake27
03-17-2005, 11:56 PM
:roflmao::roflmao:

I guess there are some intelligent Sox fans around here...

you cant tell me my 3 point are wrong tho

Randar68
03-17-2005, 11:56 PM
and rander, i keep coming up with ideas so i post them, nothing wrong with that

Yep... These are gold, make sure you calal KW and Ozzie with these "gems"...

lay off the :bong:

Randar68
03-17-2005, 11:57 PM
you cant tell me my 3 point are wrong tho

You're right, as the old saying goes, "you can't argue with ignorance..."

SABRSox
03-18-2005, 12:42 AM
you cant tell me my 3 point are wrong tho

http://www.hillnews.com/photos/012704/waxman-henry.gif
"I know a committee that could use guys like you."

DumpJerry
03-18-2005, 12:44 AM
Look, we have five solid starters right now. We have a more than respectful bullpen. The club is grooming BMac for a starter position. Odds are that one of our five will, unfortunately, go down for a bit this year. It is rare that a team can keep all five arms healthy through the six month season. Look at the Flubs.

When (if) one of our starters goes down, we have two capable guys who can fill in from the farm:Adkins and BMac. I'm thinking that Adkins will get the call unless BMac is totally tearing up AAA.

2006 will probably be BMac's year. At least one of our present five will be gone, it is rare for a team to hold on to all five starters year-to-year.

Thems my thoughts.

MRKARNO
03-18-2005, 12:52 AM
Isn't there a special forum for idiotic threads like this?

jake27
03-18-2005, 01:22 AM
im just saying mccarthy is better than cotts and i want the best team possible on the field, dont all of you? im not trying to be an a-hole, i understand where you guys are coming from. i just havent heard anything anyone has said yet here to back up their view that also doesnt go for mine. people keep saying "they need him in AAA to develop him" "he wont build up arm strengh from the pen" etc etc. yet they can "develop" him in the majors just as well if not better and he can build up the same amounf of arm strength, if not more in the majors. just no1 has given me anything to support their view. thats all

jake27
03-18-2005, 01:23 AM
Yep... These are gold, make sure you calal KW and Ozzie with these "gems"...

so having your best pitchers in the pen isnt a good idea :?:

WhiteSoxFan84
03-18-2005, 01:33 AM
I just read the first post and didn't bother reading the rest so I'm sorry if I'm repeating what others said...

There is NO CHANCE of McCarthy making the big league squad as a reliever. There is ALMOST NO CHANCE of him making the big league squad at all.
KW is set on having BMac start in AAA and have him ready incase one of the Big 5 gets injured or struggles.

Take it for what it's worth, but what I'm hearing is that the Rangers are interested in Jose Contreras. There was reports on Fox Sports that the Rangers were offering Cleveland Lance Nix and Adrian Gonzalez for C.C. Sabathia. They also made a similar offer to the Astros for Brandon Backe. The Rangers would not (if they were to at all) make a similar offer to the Sox for Contreras for obvious reasons (age, salary, lack of success). However, after seeing Kenny Rogers get roughed up and because they're the Texas Rangers (no pitching), they'll take anything they can get right now. If I hear more, I'll let you guys know. And no, Alfonso Soriano is not part of the rumor (THANK GOD).

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-18-2005, 01:34 AM
so having your best pitchers in the pen isnt a good idea :?:
I just think most Sox fans are overly cautious about our "stud" pitchers in the minors because the high success rate we've had with them in the past 10 years or so. McCarthy looks like the real thing, though. :cool:

Mohoney
03-18-2005, 01:38 AM
I just read the first post and didn't bother reading the rest so I'm sorry if I'm repeating what others said...

There is NO CHANCE of McCarthy making the big league squad as a reliever. There is ALMOST NO CHANCE of him making the big league squad at all.
KW is set on having BMac start in AAA and have him ready incase one of the Big 5 gets injured or struggles.

Take it for what it's worth, but what I'm hearing is that the Rangers are interested in Jose Contreras. There was reports on Fox Sports that the Rangers were offering Cleveland Lance Nix and Adrian Gonzalez for C.C. Sabathia. They also made a similar offer to the Astros for Brandon Backe. The Rangers would not (if they were to at all) make a similar offer to the Sox for Contreras for obvious reasons (age, salary, lack of success). However, after seeing Kenny Rogers get roughed up and because they're the Texas Rangers (no pitching), they'll take anything they can get right now. If I hear more, I'll let you guys know. And no, Alfonso Soriano is not part of the rumor (THANK GOD).

:jon

Future Ranger?

WhiteSoxFan84
03-18-2005, 01:44 AM
why? i understand wher epeople are coming form. but i think we can all agree that it would be better having him come out of the pen insted of someone like neal cotts (no trying to bash cotts here, i think that mccatrhy is better though). they are pitchers, they throw a ball! thats it! and next year, i would like a 22 yr old w/ big league experience than a 22 yr old with no major league experience. what are the chances that 1-5 in the sox rotation will stay healthy the entire year? he iwll get his starts and learn the big league hitters and contuine working on stuff. doesnt everyone want the best bullpen possible? wouldnt it be better with mccarthy than with him in it?

Ummm.... aren't we trying to win a division? Or are we trying to develop a single player?

Brooks Boyer just e-mailed me with the new Sox slogan for 2005 and asked me to pass this on to all of you here at WSI...

"2005 Chicago White Sox; The Brandon McCarthy Experiment"

I love the guy as well and wish he is the next Nolan Ryan, BUT, let's not jump to conclusions based on 1 year in the minors and 10 IP in Spring Training. For all we know he comes up to the majors during the season and turns in a Felix Diaz/Arnie Munoz performance. I think he's a lot better than both of the two combined, but let the guy prove himself in AAA again before we give him a spot in our sacred rotation.

GBurke819
03-18-2005, 02:21 AM
This kid has a point. Why wouldn't we want our best pitchers in the bigs? I think Neal Cotts is a lot better at this point. But if you think MacCarthy is the better one, I can see why you would want him up with the club.

jake27
03-18-2005, 02:27 AM
[QUOTE=WhiteSoxFan84]Ummm.... aren't we trying to win a division? Or are we trying to develop a single player?


[QUOTE]

thanks exactly what i have been saying! we are trying to win a divison, we need our best pitchers, and i think mccarthy is better than cotts. im just saying that it would not only be the best thing to do (mccarthy in the pen), but it will also be better for mccarthy to get a year of mlb experiece under his belt rather than a year in the minors

jake27
03-18-2005, 02:28 AM
This kid has a point. Why wouldn't we want our best pitchers in the bigs? I think Neal Cotts is a lot better at this point. But if you think MacCarthy is the better one, I can see why you would want him up with the club.

thank you and welcome :bandance: :supernana: :bandance: :welcome:

WhiteSoxFan84
03-18-2005, 04:37 AM
thanks exactly what i have been saying! we are trying to win a divison, we need our best pitchers, and i think mccarthy is better than cotts. im just saying that it would not only be the best thing to do (mccarthy in the pen), but it will also be better for mccarthy to get a year of mlb experiece under his belt rather than a year in the minors

You can't just take a good starter convert him to a reliever and expect him to be a good reliever. Especially a young prospect. You can do that with struggling SP's later on in their careers (Gagne) but you can't do that with prospects. Look at Juan Cruz. A lot of "experts" said that the Cubs ruined him by not specifying his role. In the minors he was a starter. He comes up to the big leagues and he's throwing out of the pen. He comes out of the pen and gets rocked. They start him a couple of times and he does well. Although he does well, he's back in the pen a week later. Don't forget that 90% of the game is half mental. For pitchers, it's a bigger portion of the 90% that's mental.

What do you do if use McCarthy, who is used to being a SP, as a long reliever and he can't adjust and gets ROCKED?

Not only does he get rocked, he loses his confidence and en route loses it all ala Rick Ankiel?

As someone said before, the Sox do not have a rich history of developing good pitchers. This guy looks great and let's not ruin it when we don't need him. If we had him last year, I think we'd win the division. But he blossomed one year too late and I think he can handle just one more year in the minors because after this year either Garland (free agency) or Contreras (trade) will be gone opening up a slot in the rotation for BMac.

Now when September call-ups roll around, IF this guy isn't on the ML squad yet, then you bring him up and give him as many innings as possible. Hopefully by then we are comfortably in first place and he gets a ton of work.

MeanFish
03-18-2005, 07:55 AM
Converting McCarthy into a reliever to start the season is not smart thinking. It's very likely that McCarthy will get a number of starts for us this year as what I assume will be our sixth man in the rotation, but while he's NOT in the rotation to start the season he's better served stretching his arm out starting games in AAA.

You're correct in saying that we need our best team on the field. However, we need to think about what's best when we do that 162 times.

jake27
03-18-2005, 08:30 AM
you dont have to do much of anything to convert him to the bullpen. its not like he is throwing different, he is just throwing the ball less. you dont need to be taught or "converted" into throwing less, you just do it.any pitcher could start giving up a ton of runs and lose it mentaly, he doesnt have to be young (ala billy koch). if mccarthy gave up a ton of runs then he isnt going to be the best option for the club, so send him down to the minors.

MeanFish
03-18-2005, 08:39 AM
An unfortunate side effect though is that relievers become accustomed to throwing less pitches. He wouldn't be as useful as a sixth starter out of the pen compared to coming up from a routine starting job in AA or AAA.

Corlose 15
03-18-2005, 09:37 AM
I've been trying to bite my tongue, but the preposterousness (LOL!) of these posts just multiplies with each new post... unreal. This guy is in college? Scary.

Well, he does go to NMU so really its not much of a college.:smile:

MRKARNO
03-18-2005, 09:41 AM
This kid has a point. Why wouldn't we want our best pitchers in the bigs?

What part of this dont you guys understand? McCarthy is still a prospect. He's had 4 regular season starts above the A-level! When you have a prospect this good, you don't want to rush him too fast because he's not a sure thing yet. It's not worth potentially ruining the development track of a top 15 prospect for a slight upgrade in the bullpen. Let him pitch on a regular schedule at AA or AAA and if he can dominate those levels, so be it, but he needs to work on that changeup more before he'll be entirely ready to be in the major leagues. He can get by with what he's got now, but let him develop that changeup.

California Sox
03-18-2005, 10:07 AM
Yeah, bringing B-Mac to the majors to rot as the twelfth man on the staff would be idiotic. Give hima at least half a season in the minors and when Contreras is walking 5 men per 9 innings shift him to the bullpen and bring up McCarthy.

Hangar18
03-18-2005, 10:16 AM
They should not rush him, this guy will be good but not right now.

that would be very cub-like to rush him here ..........

Ol' No. 2
03-18-2005, 10:17 AM
you dont have to do much of anything to convert him to the bullpen. its not like he is throwing different, he is just throwing the ball less. you dont need to be taught or "converted" into throwing less, you just do it.any pitcher could start giving up a ton of runs and lose it mentaly, he doesnt have to be young (ala billy koch). if mccarthy gave up a ton of runs then he isnt going to be the best option for the club, so send him down to the minors.On what basis do you conclude that he's significantly better than Cotts? His extensive major league experience? Do you have any idea how many pitchers have had 10 good innings in spring training and were complete busts? Do you honestly think someone like him with a grand total of 4 starts above A-ball can just go out and start relieving games at the major league level? GMAB

SoxFanTillDeath
03-18-2005, 10:19 AM
he has been a starter his whole life, he doesnt need to "learn" how to pitch many innings. you just do it. if he was called upon to start next year he has the winter and spring training to "learn" how to pitch more innings. again he can throw as much as a regular pitcher would, if not more in practice and throwing in the pen. so his arm endurance (if thats how you say it) can go up in the majors.

also... what does he prove if he faces some minor league hitters? he learns nothing! id rather have him face less major league hitters, learn about the guys who he will be seeing for years to come than some minor league guy. he will also learn more from cooper than whoever the AAA coach is... so heres whats happening

1.) he will learn things from don cooper, a major league pitching coach than whoever is at AAA
2.) he can throw just as much in practice here, if not more, than in AAA
3.) he will learn about big league hitters that he will be facing for years to come rather than minor league guys where a few will be lucky to make the majors

Seriously, please stop. The guy has started, what, 4 times or something in AA ball? He's thrown 10 innings in SPRING TRAINING! We know the guy is good, but please, lay off the :gulp:. Give the kid time to develop.

The Sox have not have a good track record with pitchers because we have been so devoid of pitchers on our Major League team that we've been forced to bring guys up well before they are ready. (See Kip Wells, Jon Rauch, etc.) If you have a problem with leaving B-Mac in the minors for a minimum of half a season, I have two words for you: Johan Santana. The Twins were smart enough the send this guy back down to the miniors for another season of fine-tuning even after he was considered ready, and look how horrible that turned out for them last year.

And anyone stupid enough to want B-Mac here rather than Cotts, there are two arguments against that. 1, Cotts is one of only two lefties in our pen. 2, Neal has a season of major league experience under his belt. Yes, Brandon McCarthy will be better in his career and is a better pitcher, but will he have more success in the majors this year than Cotts? Probably not. Experience goes a long way in the majors.

The Sox will be better next year with Cotts in the pen, and they will be better in the future with McCarthy throwing the ball on a starter's schedule in the minors and perfecting his change-up. It's a win-win situation, and I'm pretty sure that 97% of the posters in this forum will agree with me.

Jurr
03-18-2005, 11:11 AM
Does this organization get some sort of high from rushing pitching prospects?
Which is exactly why they WON'T be sending him with the Sox.

mdep524
03-18-2005, 11:32 AM
Take it for what it's worth, but what I'm hearing is that the Rangers are interested in Jose Contreras. There was reports on Fox Sports that the Rangers were offering Cleveland Lance Nix and Adrian Gonzalez for C.C. Sabathia. They also made a similar offer to the Astros for Brandon Backe. The Rangers would not (if they were to at all) make a similar offer to the Sox for Contreras for obvious reasons (age, salary, lack of success). However, after seeing Kenny Rogers get roughed up and because they're the Texas Rangers (no pitching), they'll take anything they can get right now. If I hear more, I'll let you guys know. And no, Alfonso Soriano is not part of the rumor (THANK GOD). :wired: :wired: :wired:

jake27
03-18-2005, 02:58 PM
On what basis do you conclude that he's significantly better than Cotts? His extensive major league experience? Do you have any idea how many pitchers have had 10 good innings in spring training and were complete busts? Do you honestly think someone like him with a grand total of 4 starts above A-ball can just go out and start relieving games at the major league level? GMAB

his ball moves more than cotts and i think he hides the ball better than cotts. he also doesnt walk as many guys as cotts does. again its just my opinion hes better than cotts. if you think cotts is better then i understand why he would be the better choice. but if you think mccarthy is better than cotts but want cotts in the bullpen insted of mccarthy, i dont get it because then you wouldnt have your best guys in the bullpen.

everyone also keeps bringing up his "development". i will ask again, what is "development"? and what can he "develop" in the minors that he couldnt "develop" in the majors :?:

CPditka
03-18-2005, 03:02 PM
Didnt M.B. start in long relief or am I mistaken?

jake27
03-18-2005, 03:06 PM
The Sox have not have a good track record with pitchers because we have been so devoid of pitchers on our Major League team that we've been forced to bring guys up well before they are ready. (See Kip Wells, Jon Rauch, etc.) If you have a problem with leaving B-Mac in the minors for a minimum of half a season, I have two words for you: Johan Santana.


i got another name for you... mark buehrle. he came up in 2000, when he was 21. and he only started 3 games, he worked out of the pen that year. and his career was tarnished by coming up at 21 and working out of the pen before going in the starting rotation. he also only pitched 51 innings. wait how will he build arm strength to become a starter next year? he wont beable to handle starting after being in the bullpen insted of starting in the minors.. right??

2001... 221 ip 16-8 3.29 ERA

he was sooooooo ruined wasnt he? why didnt the white sox let him "develop"???? :rolleyes:

jake27
03-18-2005, 03:25 PM
[QUOTE=SoxFanTillDeath]

And anyone stupid enough to want B-Mac here rather than Cotts, there are two arguments against that. 1, Cotts is one of only two lefties in our pen. 2, Neal has a season of major league experience under his belt. Yes, Brandon McCarthy will be better in his career and is a better pitcher, but will he have more success in the majors this year than Cotts? Probably not. Experience goes a long way in the majors.

[\QUOTE]

1.) ok he is one of 2 lefties... and? it doesnt matter if your righty or lefty, the only thing that matters is outs. if u get em out who cares which arm you throw with?

2.) so you want mccarthy in the majors next year with no/very limited big league experience? i thought it went a long way?:?: we are so short of experience with our pitchers that we HAVE to have that 1 year neal cotts will bring us

MRKARNO
03-18-2005, 03:40 PM
i dont get it

I totally agree! You just don't get it.

jake27
03-18-2005, 03:43 PM
I totally agree! You just don't get it.

what dont i get?

Ol' No. 2
03-18-2005, 03:44 PM
i got another name for you... mark buehrle. he came up in 2000, when he was 21. and he only started 3 games, he worked out of the pen that year. and his career was tarnished by coming up at 21 and working out of the pen before going in the starting rotation. he also only pitched 51 innings. wait how will he build arm strength to become a starter next year? he wont beable to handle starting after being in the bullpen insted of starting in the minors.. right??

2001... 221 ip 16-8 3.29 ERA

he was sooooooo ruined wasnt he? why didnt the white sox let him "develop"???? :rolleyes: Buehrle also had 16 starts at AA. Not 4.

jake27
03-18-2005, 03:54 PM
Buehrle also had 16 starts at AA. Not 4.

and mccarthy started 27 games last year in combined AA and A... he also had over 50 more IP.. 172 to buehrles 118. AA and A are minor leagues. if you think pitching in AA is better than A, wouldnt pitching in the majors this year be better than in AAA? pitching at 21 in the majors really messed up buehrle IMO

also less than 10% of players who play in AA make it to the majors... but 16 starts at AA when 2 or 3 guys on the entire roster will make it to the majors is a great test buehrle had before getting the the majors. head over heals better than mccarthy had in single A (both teams), and AA of his own :rolleyes:

Baby Fisk
03-18-2005, 03:56 PM
what dont i get?

:hawk
"Mercy!"

Ol' No. 2
03-18-2005, 04:15 PM
and mccarthy started 27 games last year in combined AA and A... he also had over 50 more IP.. 172 to buehrles 118. AA and A are minor leagues. if you think pitching in AA is better than A, wouldnt pitching in the majors this year be better than in AAA? pitching at 21 in the majors really messed up buehrle IMO

also less than 10% of players who play in AA make it to the majors... but 16 starts at AA when 2 or 3 guys on the entire roster will make it to the majors is a great test buehrle had before getting the the majors. head over heals better than mccarthy had in single A (both teams), and AA of his own :rolleyes: No one could be this dense. Who is this REALLY?

MRKARNO
03-18-2005, 04:19 PM
what dont i get?

The concept of player development.

WhiteSoxFan84
03-18-2005, 04:24 PM
i got another name for you... mark buehrle. he came up in 2000, when he was 21. and he only started 3 games, he worked out of the pen that year. and his career was tarnished by coming up at 21 and working out of the pen before going in the starting rotation. he also only pitched 51 innings. wait how will he build arm strength to become a starter next year? he wont beable to handle starting after being in the bullpen insted of starting in the minors.. right??

2001... 221 ip 16-8 3.29 ERA

he was sooooooo ruined wasnt he? why didnt the white sox let him "develop"???? :rolleyes:

I don't like beating dead horses (because they smell), but I just wanted to add one more thing.

Mark Anthony Buehrle came to mind when I was thinking of SP prospects the Sox brought up and placed them in the pen for one year. And yes he has been very successful. Can you name me any others?

You have a 1 in 3,000 chance of being struck by lighting. After that one time it happens, do you think it'll happen the next time you step outdoors? Or the time after? Or the time after?

WhiteSoxFan84
03-18-2005, 04:26 PM
head over heals better than mccarthy had in single A (both teams), and AA of his own :rolleyes:

hahaha, I'm sorry, I just laughed out loud when I read that. I'm sorry. I'll stop now..... :tongue:

charlotteknights
03-18-2005, 04:28 PM
according to Knights GM, McCarthy won't be starting in AAA. He more than likely will be called up from AA if 1) someone gets hurt or 2) mid season. Blackwell feels that they'll treat him sort of like they did Garland, letting him get a little seasoning before they call him up, not that he couldn't handle it. we could only wish that he would be coming here, but with the short porch that we have in Charlotte, it is probably best that he stay in Birmingham.

daveeym
03-18-2005, 04:39 PM
Honestly his posts read like a 13 year old or a foreigner who just picked up the game, may be catching on quick, but has no comprehension of the subtleties of the game. His unbridled enthusiasm is annoying yet strangely addicting. I find that I CAN"T STOP READING THIS THREAD no matter how i try. :wired: :wired: :wired:

Baby Fisk
03-18-2005, 04:41 PM
Honestly his posts read like a 13 year old or a foreigner who just picked up the game, may be catching on quick, but has no comprehension of the subtleties of the game. His unbridled enthusiasm is annoying yet strangely addicting. I find that I CAN"T STOP READING THIS THREAD no matter how i try. :wired: :wired: :wired:

It's like listening to a youngster asking "BUT WHY? BUT WHY? BUT WHY? BUT WHY?" ad infinitum... Everyone's waiting for the moment of comprehension to strike. :cool:

daveeym
03-18-2005, 04:44 PM
It's like listening to a youngster asking "BUT WHY? BUT WHY? BUT WHY? BUT WHY?" ad infinitum... Everyone's waiting for the moment of comprehension to strike. :cool: No kidding, either that or he's on some serious :booty:

MRKARNO
03-18-2005, 04:45 PM
It's like listening to a youngster asking "BUT WHY? BUT WHY? BUT WHY? BUT WHY?" ad infinitum... Everyone's waiting for the moment of comprehension to strike. :cool:

He's the frontrunner for the habibharu award for spelling and logic at this point.

jake27
03-18-2005, 04:46 PM
The concept of player development.

dont you want your player to be under the best coaches the white sox can offer? well they are in the majors. and he will learn a ton more from the pitchers who are in the major leagues than the guys they have in AAA or AA. he can learn about the big league hitters, who he will be facing for years to come (we can only hope) insted of some minor leaguers who the majority will never make the bigs. again, what cant he develop in the majors that he could develop in the minors (no1 has given me an answer yet)...

jake27
03-18-2005, 04:50 PM
I don't like beating dead horses (because they smell), but I just wanted to add one more thing.

Mark Anthony Buehrle came to mind when I was thinking of SP prospects the Sox brought up and placed them in the pen for one year. And yes he has been very successful. Can you name me any others?

You have a 1 in 3,000 chance of being struck by lighting. After that one time it happens, do you think it'll happen the next time you step outdoors? Or the time after? Or the time after?

im sure i could name others, but with the white sox, ncaa's and it being friday night, i dont feel like looking any time soon :bandance: . i dont want to say he will be sucessful after a year in the pen, or any time he gets to the majors, no one knows unless we try him out. but i dont want to think about next year or years ahead, i want to think about this year. and in my opinion, mccarthy will be better in the pen than cotts would be this year.

Baby Fisk
03-18-2005, 04:50 PM
dont you want your player to be under the best coaches the white sox can offer? well they are in the majors. and he will learn a ton more from the pitchers who are in the major leagues than the guys they have in AAA or AA. he can learn about the big league hitters, who he will be facing for years to come (we can only hope) insted of some minor leaguers who the majority will never make the bigs. again, what cant he develop in the majors that he could develop in the minors (no1 has given me an answer yet)...

I don't think I could ever be a parent. :unsure:

Ol' No. 2
03-18-2005, 04:50 PM
It's like listening to a youngster asking "BUT WHY? BUT WHY? BUT WHY? BUT WHY?" ad infinitum... Everyone's waiting for the moment of comprehension to strike. :cool:Is there some sort of prize for whoever finally gets through?

jake27
03-18-2005, 04:51 PM
It's like listening to a youngster asking "BUT WHY? BUT WHY? BUT WHY? BUT WHY?" ad infinitum... Everyone's waiting for the moment of comprehension to strike. :cool:

ive just asked people things like "what is developing a player" or "what cant he develop in the majors but he could develop in the minors". no1 has answered it yet, thats all

... sorry about the really really bad spelling. im trying to type quick so i dont miss much of the sox game or the ncaas:smile:

Baby Fisk
03-18-2005, 04:55 PM
ive just asked people things like "what is developing a player" or "what cant he develop in the majors but he could develop in the minors". no1 has answered it yet, thats att
I'm being irresistibly sucked into this because I want to be a father someday. How's this:

If you rush a promising youngster into the Majors and he gets rocked over and over again, you shatter his confidence and have a basket case on your hands that may never be cured. Developing players at their own experience level (or reasonably close) prevents that kind of confidence-shattering trauma. Mental development and maturity is just as important as skills development. Does that make sense? :?:

Daver
03-18-2005, 05:00 PM
I'm being irresistibly sucked into this because I want to be a father someday. How's this:

If you rush a promising youngster into the Majors and he gets rocked over and over again, you shatter his confidence and have a basket case on your hands that may never be cured. Developing players at their own experience level (or reasonably close) prevents that kind of confidence-shattering trauma. Mental development and maturity is just as important as skills development. Does that make sense? :?:

See; Ruffcorn, Scott

; Bolton, Rodney

; Rauch, Jon

daveeym
03-18-2005, 05:00 PM
Is there some sort of prize for whoever finally gets through? I'll give it a shot

Development is letting him face live batters and learn how to hit corners with his breaking ball, or with his moving fastball, or allowing him to learn to have his changeup fall outside the zone but chased by the batter. Development is allowing him to do this in a situation where WINNING DOESN'T MATTER, and there is no pressure on him. Development is allowing him to do this against professional players (even minor leaguers are professional) with GREAT SUCCESS so he never doubts himself or gets too frustrated trying to do too much too soon. Development is allowing him to get lit up and not have 10 reporters in his face after the game giving him ****.

Throwing him immediately into the bigs is putting pressure on him to win first and not to improve on the great RAW SKILLS he has already. It's telling him he's got to be perfect or you're getting benched, or sent back down to the minors. It's fans telling him he blows or killed the sox playoff chances. It's the media asking him EVERY ****ING DAY WHAT'S WRONG WITH HIS PITCHING. It's feeling like a schmuck in front of your hero Frank Thomas and putting more pressure on yourself.

jake27
03-18-2005, 05:00 PM
I'm being irresistibly sucked into this because I want to be a father someday. How's this:

If you rush a promising youngster into the Majors and he gets rocked over and over again, you shatter his confidence and have a basket case on your hands that may never be cured. Developing players at their own experience level (or reasonably close) prevents that kind of confidence-shattering trauma. Mental development and maturity is just as important as skills development. Does that make sense? :?:

it does. but he can also break down and get rocked etc etc in AAA or AA. this kid is really mature for his age. and you tell me this... would he develop mentaly and mature more on a team with 22ish year olds or in the big leagues with vets and players with experience that can teach him a heck of a lot more about being mature and acting like a big leagers than AAA guys can. as i have said before, if he struggles, i have no problem with him being sent down.

... thanks for being the 1st person to try to explain what they think developing a player is

MeanFish
03-18-2005, 05:03 PM
Fine. I'll call your bluff and we'll talk about coaching at various levels of professional baseball. When you get to the major leagues, it's assumed you know how to pitch. Occasionally they might tweak something but for the most part you're not there to learn but rather to produce. Minor league pitching coaches are paid to develop pitchers, and the minor leagues are the place where adding games to the "L" column doesn't kill your franchise. Maybe you're right, maybe McCarthy *could* cut it at the major league level now. But what if he can't? It's a very sensitive time in his development process because, despite his success, he hasn't really seen that high of a talent level yet. A couple Munoz-does-Montreal performances and that confidence we are all excited about could be crushed and he could spend the rest of his career concentrating on what he did wrong, instead of what he will do right.

It's understandable that you don't have much faith in our ability to develop players in the minors; they haven't shown us much lately. But that's no reason to rush people to the major leagues and destroy their psyche like a christmas ornament hurtled into oncoming traffic.

Ol' No. 2
03-18-2005, 05:04 PM
What is the strange fascination with this thread? I just can't stop reading it.

OK, let me have another crack at it.

Cotts pitched out of the BP all last year and racked up 65 IP. Adkins 62. Takatsu 62. Starting at AA, McCarthy will rack up that many by June. Plus, without the pressure of pitching with a major league game on the line, he'll be free to experiment more with his pitches. He can work on the changeup until he gets it right, whereas pitching in the bigs with the game on the line, he's got to go with his best pitch. Lastly, Richard Dotson is the pitching coach in Birmingham. He knows a little bit about pitching. Cooper has a whole pitching staff to worry about. Dotson can spend a lot more time with McCarthy than Cooper can.

Baby Fisk
03-18-2005, 05:05 PM
it does. but he can also break down and get rocked etc etc in AAA or AA. this kid is really mature for his age. and you tell me this... would he develop mentaly and mature more on a team with 22ish year olds or in the big leagues with vets and players with experience that can teach him a heck of a lot more about being mature and acting like a big leagers than AAA guys can. as i have said before, if he struggles, i have no problem with him being sent down.

... thanks for being the 1st person to try to explain what they think developing a player is

Jake, if he's getting rocked in AA or AAA, we don't want him in the bigs! Daver gives some examples above of young studs who got rushed into the bigs and went nowhere. For once, we'd all like to see young talent developed at a good pace, and not rushed out there because he's shown potential in a couple of ST appearences. Young men in a hurry can often get burned!

Ol' No. 2
03-18-2005, 05:12 PM
Don't look now, but McCarthy is already listed on the Baron's roster on their web page.

http://www.barons.com/

jake27
03-18-2005, 05:13 PM
I'll give it a shot

Development is letting him face live batters and learn how to hit corners with his breaking ball, or with his moving fastball, or allowing him to learn to have his changeup fall outside the zone but chased by the batter. Development is allowing him to do this in a situation where WINNING DOESN'T MATTER, and there is no pressure on him. Development is allowing him to do this against professional players (even minor leaguers are professional) with GREAT SUCCESS so he never doubts himself or gets too frustrated trying to do too much too soon. Development is allowing him to get lit up and not have 10 reporters in his face after the game giving him ****.

Throwing him immediately into the bigs is putting pressure on him to win first and not to improve on the great RAW SKILLS he has already. It's telling him he's got to be perfect or you're getting benched, or sent back down to the minors. It's fans telling him he blows or killed the sox playoff chances. It's the media asking him EVERY ****ING DAY WHAT'S WRONG WITH HIS PITCHING. It's feeling like a schmuck in front of your hero Frank Thomas and putting more pressure on yourself.

my points to ur entry...
-he can face many live batters, major league batters in practice and games
-so your saying he cant practice hitting his corners and working on pitches in the majors? dont major leaguers always try to work on those?
- winning does matter, you dont think those players in the minors arent trying to win and show something to the big league club? i dont know about you, but i want my minor league guys trying to win every game. if he goes into the game thinking if we win eh... if we lose eh. i want some fire, desire to win.
-he doesnt doubt himself now. he thinks he can pitch in the majors now.
- you said in the majors they tell them to win and not improve on raw skills. they practice for hours on end, not trying to win, but practicing their skills and improving them.
- fans will heckle him if hes in the big or the minors. im sure he has been heckled before, its not new stuff to him.
- you dont think there is media in AA or AAA asking him whats wrong with his pitches? and isnt that what a coach does anyway... tells you whats wrong. im sure he has been told he is messing up by media and coaches many times before.

jake27
03-18-2005, 05:17 PM
Jake, if he's getting rocked in AA or AAA, we don't want him in the bigs! Daver gives some examples above of young studs who got rushed into the bigs and went nowhere. For once, we'd all like to see young talent developed at a good pace, and not rushed out there because he's shown potential in a couple of ST appearences. Young men in a hurry can often get burned!

again with my question... what is developing a player to you and what cant he develop in the majors but can in the minors

again i know there are busts, but its like that for hitters too, not just pitchers, and it happens to every team. and you cant say the players mentioned above got messed up because they got rushed to the bigs. they could have spent 3 more years in the minors then stunk it up in the bigs. (example borchard, he is being given all the time in the world in the minors, and he still stinks when he came to the bigs last year.) so you cant blame rushing them to the majors is the reason why they didnt pan out, they might have just not had the stuff to be in the bigs, whenever they made it there.

daveeym
03-18-2005, 05:19 PM
my points to ur entry...
-he can face many live batters, major league batters in practice and games - there is no live batting practice once the season starts, no facing major league players unless you're in the game.
-so your saying he cant practice hitting his corners and working on pitches in the majors? dont major leaguers always try to work on those? - No they don't not in the middle of a game.
- winning does matter, you dont think those players in the minors arent trying to win and show something to the big league club? i dont know about you, but i want my minor league guys trying to win every game. if he goes into the game thinking if we win eh... if we lose eh. i want some fire, desire to win. - yes they don't care if he wins as long as he's working on pitches and improving winning is secondary in the minors.
-he doesnt doubt himself now. he thinks he can pitch in the majors now.- it's not his decision
- you said in the majors they tell them to win and not improve on raw skills. they practice for hours on end, not trying to win, but practicing their skills and improving them. - the minors are for practicing not the majors

on your next two points the difference between the minors is like the difference between a 3 lb chihauhau and a 180 lb. rottweiler. they're both dogs but no where near the same animal.
- fans will heckle him if hes in the big or the minors. im sure he has been heckled before, its not new stuff to him.
- you dont think there is media in AA or AAA asking him whats wrong with his pitches? and isnt that what a coach does anyway... tells you whats wrong. im sure he has been told he is messing up by media and coaches many times before

jake27
03-18-2005, 05:29 PM
Cotts pitched out of the BP all last year and racked up 65 IP. Adkins 62. Takatsu 62. Starting at AA, McCarthy will rack up that many by June. Plus, without the pressure of pitching with a major league game on the line, he'll be free to experiment more with his pitches. He can work on the changeup until he gets it right, whereas pitching in the bigs with the game on the line, he's got to go with his best pitch. Lastly, Richard Dotson is the pitching coach in Birmingham. He knows a little bit about pitching. Cooper has a whole pitching staff to worry about. Dotson can spend a lot more time with McCarthy than Cooper can.

mccarthy can get in plenty of pitching in here and in practice against better hitters. with the game on the line, it might not be a bad idea to not use you best pitch. since its your best pitch, the hitter will be waiting for it. dont you think dotson has a lot more teaching to do with 20 something year old guys than cooper does w/ vets that might just need to be tweeked every once in a while. i think cooper would have a lot more time to develop 1 guy because he doesnt need to watch the other guys so close. dotson is expected to develop the entire staff, he wont have nearly as much time to do 1 on 1 with brandon as cooper would.

cooper was the organizations minor league pitching coordinator from 97-02 before the promotion to the majors. i feel better with his experience teaching whatever mccarthy needs than dotson (not saying hes bad, just saying cooper has more experience)

Ol' No. 2
03-18-2005, 05:33 PM
...I want to be a father someday.Changed your mind yet?

WhiteSoxFan84
03-18-2005, 05:33 PM
mccarthy can get in plenty of pitching in here and in practice against better hitters. with the game on the line, it might not be a bad idea to not use you best pitch. since its your best pitch, the hitter will be waiting for it. dont you think dotson has a lot more teaching to do with 20 something year old guys than cooper does w/ vets that might just need to be tweeked every once in a while. i think cooper would have a lot more time to develop 1 guy because he doesnt need to watch the other guys so close. dotson is expected to develop the entire staff, he wont have nearly as much time to do 1 on 1 with brandon as cooper would.

cooper was the organizations minor league pitching coordinator from 97-02 before the promotion to the majors. i feel better with his experience teaching whatever mccarthy needs than dotson (not saying hes bad, just saying cooper has more experience)

Jake, is your last name McCarthy? And/or is Brandon your brother?

Baby Fisk
03-18-2005, 05:34 PM
again with my question... what is developing a player to you and what cant he develop in the majors but can in the minors

again i know there are busts, but its like that for hitters too, not just pitchers, and it happens to every team. and you cant say the players mentioned above got messed up because they got rushed to the bigs. they could have spent 3 more years in the minors then stunk it up in the bigs. (example borchard, he is being given all the time in the world in the minors, and he still stinks when he came to the bigs last year.) so you cant blame rushing them to the majors is the reason why they didnt pan out, they might have just not had the stuff to be in the bigs, whenever they made it there.

I'm not giving up. :cool:

As Meanfish indicated above, B-Mac has not been exposed to elite level hitting this year. He's shown some great potential, and it's not unusual by any stretch to want to give the kid some more time in the minors to perfect his pitches, do some experimenting, and gain more comfort by mowing down minor leaguers. That way, when he arrives in the glare and spotlight and pressure cooker of Chicago Major League Baseball, he doesn't have to worry if he's got the right stuff or not. He'll have the confidence and THEN he can rely on major league coaches and teammates to help him along. It's all a matter of taking the right steps forward, as opposed to taking a huge leap forward and risk doing a crash and burn. Again, keeping B-Mac in the minors one more year is NOT UNUSUAL. A lot of us are sensitive because we've seen the "crash and burn" happen to youngsters too many times in the recent past. How's that sound? :?:

Ol' No. 2
03-18-2005, 05:37 PM
As if this couldn't get even more ridiculous...

:tomatoaward

daveeym
03-18-2005, 05:37 PM
I'm not giving up. :cool:

It's time to resort to I know you are but what am I..........................................INFINIT Y.

Baby Fisk
03-18-2005, 05:38 PM
As if this couldn't get even more ridiculous...

:tomatoaward


*bursts into tormented laughter* :roflmao:

jake27
03-18-2005, 05:40 PM
my points to ur entry...
-he can face many live batters, major league batters in practice and games - there is no live batting practice once the season starts, no facing major league players unless you're in the game. no live BP? isnt that what the white sox d about 2 and a half hours before the game? why wouldnt you be allowed to face major leaguers unless your in a game?
-so your saying he cant practice hitting his corners and working on pitches in the majors? dont major leaguers always try to work on those? - No they don't not in the middle of a game. they do it all the time, they have similuated games in the bullpen all the time.
- winning does matter, you dont think those players in the minors arent trying to win and show something to the big league club? i dont know about you, but i want my minor league guys trying to win every game. if he goes into the game thinking if we win eh... if we lose eh. i want some fire, desire to win. - yes they don't care if he wins as long as he's working on pitches and improving winning is secondary in the minors. "they" might not care, but the players do sure care if they win or lose, so do the fans. isnt AJ a good fit because he will do anything to win? i want more players like that
-he doesnt doubt himself now. he thinks he can pitch in the majors now.- it's not his decision i know its not his decision, but the question/remark was he might not think he is good enough to pitch in the majors now (something along those lines) and i just responded how he doesnt doubt himself, he thinks he can pitch in the majors this year. i said nothing about him making nay kind of decision
- you said in the majors they tell them to win and not improve on raw skills. they practice for hours on end, not trying to win, but practicing their skills and improving them. - the minors are for practicing not the majors players are always practicing on their skills, dya in day out. not ony to keep them from slipping, but to learn and get better.

on your next two points the difference between the minors is like the difference between a 3 lb chihauhau and a 180 lb. rottweiler. they're both dogs but no where near the same animal.
why is it different? its fans and media saying stuff. do they have a new harsh languaue they only use in the majors that minor leaguers have never heard of before? yes there will be more pressure in the bigs, but that pressure will still be there next year and it will be much more because he would be starting, not just releiving. he has to experience the big leagues some time, i would rather it be this year so hes all prepared for a great season starting next year than go in cold next year as a start, never been in the bigs for any great amount of time.
- fans will heckle him if hes in the big or the minors. im sure he has been heckled before, its not new stuff to him.
- you dont think there is media in AA or AAA asking him whats wrong with his pitches? and isnt that what a coach does anyway... tells you whats wrong. im sure he has been told he is messing up by media and coaches many times before
:smile:

jake27
03-18-2005, 05:42 PM
I'm not giving up. :cool:

As Meanfish indicated above, B-Mac has not been exposed to elite level hitting this year. He's shown some great potential, and it's not unusual by any stretch to want to give the kid some more time in the minors to perfect his pitches, do some experimenting, and gain more comfort by mowing down minor leaguers. That way, when he arrives in the glare and spotlight and pressure cooker of Chicago Major League Baseball, he doesn't have to worry if he's got the right stuff or not. He'll have the confidence and THEN he can rely on major league coaches and teammates to help him along. It's all a matter of taking the right steps forward, as opposed to taking a huge leap forward and risk doing a crash and burn. Again, keeping B-Mac in the minors one more year is NOT UNUSUAL. A lot of us are sensitive because we've seen the "crash and burn" happen to youngsters too many times in the recent past. How's that sound? :?: elite level of hitting at AA? less than 10% of players who play in AA actually make it to the majors. the major leagues is the more elite pitching you can get. hes not worrying if he has the right stuff.. he knows he does. this guy is beaming with confidence. he KNOWS he can pitch in the bigs

daveeym
03-18-2005, 05:44 PM
:smile: That smile tells me he's been drunk for 2 days straight and flat out entertaining us with this thread and is full of ****. To You:gulp: .

Ol' No. 2
03-18-2005, 05:45 PM
http://www.agerights.com/art/dingbats/train.jpg

daveeym
03-18-2005, 05:48 PM
Some one buy this kid a copy of Bull Durham STAT or give him back his riddlin.

jake27
03-18-2005, 05:52 PM
That smile tells me he's been drunk for 2 days straight and flat out entertaining us with this thread and is full of ****. To You:gulp: .

haha no, i just havent slept much the past few days cuz ive been incredability sick, that might explain it:wired:

Baby Fisk
03-18-2005, 05:52 PM
elite level of hitting at AA? less than 10% of players who play in AA actually make it to the majors. the major leagues is the more elite pitching you can get. hes not worrying if he has the right stuff.. he knows he does. this guy is beaming with confidence. he KNOWS he can pitch in the bigs

Of course he's confident. Young people know everything. The point is, it-- [oh my gawd, Borchard just hit one 500 feet!] -- Sorry, as I was saying, the point is, we all know he's got confidence. We know he's got stuff. There's nothing wrong or abnormal about him serving out another season in the minors. It's not like he's being punished. Don't forget Jake, WE CURRENTLY HAVE FIVE STARTERS. Everyone was doing cartwheels when Duque was signed because that gave us five starters with major league experience to start the season with. The Sox can now start the season with 5 starters, and if one of them should falter or get injured we know that B-Mac could be brought up -- even tho I for one think he could use one more year in the minors as a starter. I don't buy into bringing him up to be a reliever at all.

SoxFanTillDeath
03-18-2005, 06:02 PM
I replied once to this post, and after that I decided that I've never wasted my time more. I can't believe I just read 100 posts in this thread. From here on out I am banning myself from this ridiculous thread.

It's like trying to explain how my car works to my 9 year old sister. Gosh.

jake27
03-18-2005, 06:03 PM
I replied once to this post, and after that I decided that I've never wasted my time more. I can't believe I just read 100 posts in this thread. From here on out I am banning myself from this ridiculous thread.



:rolling: well newho im out for the night, whatever responses arrise here im sure ill get to them tomorrow :redneck

gogosoxtimebaby
03-18-2005, 08:02 PM
well you guys say wat you want McCarthy for a starting spot and contreras out to the pen for him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ol' No. 2
03-18-2005, 09:35 PM
mccarthy can get in plenty of pitching in here and in practice against better hitters. with the game on the line, it might not be a bad idea to not use you best pitch. since its your best pitch, the hitter will be waiting for it. dont you think dotson has a lot more teaching to do with 20 something year old guys than cooper does w/ vets that might just need to be tweeked every once in a while. i think cooper would have a lot more time to develop 1 guy because he doesnt need to watch the other guys so close. dotson is expected to develop the entire staff, he wont have nearly as much time to do 1 on 1 with brandon as cooper would.

cooper was the organizations minor league pitching coordinator from 97-02 before the promotion to the majors. i feel better with his experience teaching whatever mccarthy needs than dotson (not saying hes bad, just saying cooper has more experience)Guys, I think he's onto something. Why waste all that time working on curve balls, sliders, cutters and stuff. That's what the hitters are expecting. The way to get them out is to surprise them with a fat one, belt high out over the plate. They'll never expect that. Yeah...that's the ticket. :duck:

MeanFish
03-18-2005, 10:03 PM
Guys, I think he's onto something. Why waste all that time working on curve balls, sliders, cutters and stuff. That's what the hitters are expecting. The way to get them out is to surprise them with a fat one, belt high out over the plate. They'll never expect that. Yeah...that's the ticket. :duck:

:LTP

Joe smash fastball! Mwahahahahahahahaha!

DaleJRFan
03-18-2005, 11:56 PM
http://www.lucidnoir.com/pictures/diethreaddie.jpg

jake27
03-19-2005, 09:44 AM
Guys, I think he's onto something. Why waste all that time working on curve balls, sliders, cutters and stuff. That's what the hitters are expecting. The way to get them out is to surprise them with a fat one, belt high out over the plate. They'll never expect that. Yeah...that's the ticket. :duck:

well you are always working on your pitches, in the minors or majors. and you always want to throw the batter what he least expects. if a major leaguer is sitting on fastball and you throw him one, your sol (most of the time)

SoxEd
03-19-2005, 10:56 AM
Hi,
I'm just a dumb foreigner, with an extremely limited grasp of baseball, and especially its subtleties, so please excuse me if this post is flat-out stupid, but:

My reading of your posts in this thread is that you seem to be saying that the Sox should bring up any young pitcher who has a good record at the non-Majors level, and who is very confident.

By your logic, why not bring up pitchers straight out of high school/Little League?

After all, if you're an ace in Grade School, 'you already know how to throw'.

Also, any ace young pitcher 'can get all the coaching and practice they need from the pre-game BP sessions, and the coaches on the Major Roster, because they're the best'.

Again, please excuse me if my thinking here is self-evidently fatuous, but, that's what you seem to be saying.

And citing MB in defence of your theories seems as valid to me as citing a certain Mr. Ruth to explain why all pitchers should also be expected to bat like MVP's.

The points that everyone else here seem to be making are that if McCarthy pitches at AA level and gets shelled:
1) he won't be on the receiving end of nearly as much confidence destroying opprobrium from the media, the fans, and himself, and will:
a) have time to get his head around what he was doing wrong, and
b) time to put it right before he gets subjected to the acid test of facing Major League hitters day in, day out, in the full glare of publicity.

2) If he does NOT get shelled at AA, and contiunues to put up stellar numbers:
a) we can always bring him up if we need him, and
b) he'll get time to e.g. develop some more absolutely filthy pitches, ensuring that when he does come up to the Majors, he will be unhittable.

To summarize:
If we bring him up now, BEFORE WE ACTUALLY NEED TO, it could all go horribly wrong for him, and very quickly.

If we use him in the minors for now, it's all good.

That's my understanding of the reasoning behind starting him at Birmingham, but hey, like I said, I'm just a dumb limey.

I wonder why the rest of the Sox management/coaching units agree - perhaps they're inexperienced schmucks like me as well?

jake27
03-19-2005, 04:49 PM
Hi,
I'm just a dumb foreigner, with an extremely limited grasp of baseball, and especially its subtleties, so please excuse me if this post is flat-out stupid, but:

My reading of your posts in this thread is that you seem to be saying that the Sox should bring up any young pitcher who has a good record at the non-Majors level, and who is very confident.

By your logic, why not bring up pitchers straight out of high school/Little League?

After all, if you're an ace in Grade School, 'you already know how to throw'.

Also, any ace young pitcher 'can get all the coaching and practice they need from the pre-game BP sessions, and the coaches on the Major Roster, because they're the best'.

Again, please excuse me if my thinking here is self-evidently fatuous, but, that's what you seem to be saying.

And citing MB in defence of your theories seems as valid to me as citing a certain Mr. Ruth to explain why all pitchers should also be expected to bat like MVP's.

The points that everyone else here seem to be making are that if McCarthy pitches at AA level and gets shelled:
1) he won't be on the receiving end of nearly as much confidence destroying opprobrium from the media, the fans, and himself, and will:
a) have time to get his head around what he was doing wrong, and
b) time to put it right before he gets subjected to the acid test of facing Major League hitters day in, day out, in the full glare of publicity.

2) If he does NOT get shelled at AA, and contiunues to put up stellar numbers:
a) we can always bring him up if we need him, and
b) he'll get time to e.g. develop some more absolutely filthy pitches, ensuring that when he does come up to the Majors, he will be unhittable.

To summarize:
If we bring him up now, BEFORE WE ACTUALLY NEED TO, it could all go horribly wrong for him, and very quickly.

If we use him in the minors for now, it's all good.

That's my understanding of the reasoning behind starting him at Birmingham, but hey, like I said, I'm just a dumb limey.

I wonder why the rest of the Sox management/coaching units agree - perhaps they're inexperienced schmucks like me as well?

no the white sox shouldnt bring up any young guy w/ confidence. they shoyuld bring up a young guy IF HES BETTER than someone on the team (i think hes better than cotts). you want your best guys in the bullpen. him having confidence and hvaing major league coaches is just a plus for mccarthy. if the guys not better than someone on the big league roster, i dont think you should bring him up.

not only is he a better option, but i think he should face the media and fans this year, it will be better. there is A LOT less pressure in the long reliver role than if he were a starter next year, A LOT. yes he would face more media and fan stuff in MLB than in AA, but he has to face the major league fans and media sometime, dosnt he? why not have him get a taste of it now so hes even more ready next year if/when hes a starter? and if hes getting shelled in the big leagues and the media and fans get on him, send him down. as i said before, i want the best guys in my bullpen. if hes doing bad, that wouldnt be a good option, then you send him down.

it could all go wrong if hes in the majors or in the minors. yes, more of a chance in the majors, but i think he could hold his own. and IF he does bad in the big leagues, he would be back down in AA. so there wouldnt be any fear of anyone gettting on him for the whole year if he had an ERA of 6 or something. if we use him in the minors its not all good. while i have nothing against neal cotts, i think mccarthy is better. i really dont like the fact that you have a better pitcher in your system than you have in the bigs. we arent worrying about next year like the flubs do, we want this year. i want the best pitchers in the bullpen, period. i think the management and coaches dont think mccarthy is better than anyon in the big league roster, so they wouldnt bring him up yet. my whole reasoning is i think he is better than cotts, and we need the best team possible this year, no holding back, and i beleive that mccarthy give us a better bullpen with him in it than cotts does.

WhiteSoxFan84
03-19-2005, 05:25 PM
Alright, I think it's time for Gary to say his piece....

:whocares

This thread is just ANNOYING now.

Ol' No. 2
03-19-2005, 06:42 PM
Hi,
I'm just a dumb foreigner, with an extremely limited grasp of baseball, and especially its subtleties, so please excuse me if this post is flat-out stupid, but:

My reading of your posts in this thread is that you seem to be saying that the Sox should bring up any young pitcher who has a good record at the non-Majors level, and who is very confident.

By your logic, why not bring up pitchers straight out of high school/Little League?

After all, if you're an ace in Grade School, 'you already know how to throw'.

Also, any ace young pitcher 'can get all the coaching and practice they need from the pre-game BP sessions, and the coaches on the Major Roster, because they're the best'.

Again, please excuse me if my thinking here is self-evidently fatuous, but, that's what you seem to be saying.

And citing MB in defence of your theories seems as valid to me as citing a certain Mr. Ruth to explain why all pitchers should also be expected to bat like MVP's.

The points that everyone else here seem to be making are that if McCarthy pitches at AA level and gets shelled:
1) he won't be on the receiving end of nearly as much confidence destroying opprobrium from the media, the fans, and himself, and will:
a) have time to get his head around what he was doing wrong, and
b) time to put it right before he gets subjected to the acid test of facing Major League hitters day in, day out, in the full glare of publicity.

2) If he does NOT get shelled at AA, and contiunues to put up stellar numbers:
a) we can always bring him up if we need him, and
b) he'll get time to e.g. develop some more absolutely filthy pitches, ensuring that when he does come up to the Majors, he will be unhittable.

To summarize:
If we bring him up now, BEFORE WE ACTUALLY NEED TO, it could all go horribly wrong for him, and very quickly.

If we use him in the minors for now, it's all good.

That's my understanding of the reasoning behind starting him at Birmingham, but hey, like I said, I'm just a dumb limey.

I wonder why the rest of the Sox management/coaching units agree - perhaps they're inexperienced schmucks like me as well?You have a much better grasp of the situation than some others here.:cool:

batmanZoSo
03-19-2005, 07:38 PM
You have a much better grasp of the situation than some others here.:cool:

Yes. The British guy even gets it...how did this thread get 121 replies? :?:

:hawk
Check that. 122.

SABRSox
03-19-2005, 08:27 PM
Hopefully this will put this thread to rest:

Linky (http://http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050319&content_id=971915&vkey=spt2005news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

jake27
03-20-2005, 12:08 AM
Hopefully this will put this thread to rest:

Linky (http://http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050319&content_id=971915&vkey=spt2005news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

doesnt work

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-20-2005, 12:10 AM
doesnt work
Here's a working link to the article
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050319&content_id=971915&vkey=spt2005news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Here's a part of the article

If that spot hypothetically goes to a pitcher, the choice would come down to either right-hander Jon Adkins or left-hander Kevin Walker. But as dominant as McCarthy has been during his first three Cactus League starts, the White Sox will not use him out of the bullpen at the Major League level.

"We went out and picked up quality relievers and we already had some here, so the work might not be there for him," said White Sox pitching coach Don Cooper of McCarthy. "It's more important for him to continue to pitch and develop."

"He's not a reliever. He has to throw every five days," Guillen added. "Has he impressed me? I've never seen any kid impress me more than this kid. The way he throws the ball, his body language on the mound. It looks like he's been there 20 years. At least I have someone to grab in the minors. I have someone to count on in the long run."

jake27
03-20-2005, 12:18 AM
i understand that. i know the white sox dont want him in the bigs now and they dont want him as a reliver. ive been saying what i think the white sox should do. again im aware the mccarthy owuldnt make the team in any sense right now.

Baby Fisk
03-20-2005, 11:57 AM
Thank god it's over. Next time Jake, go ask your mother. :cool: