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Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 11:35 AM
Phil Rogers column (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-050315rogers,1,1416742.column?coll=cs-home-utility) today is a typical Cubs hand-wringer, but it's still good for amusement, especially the opening line: So how does that Kerry Wood for Mark Teixeira trade look now?He's just discovered that St. Dusty has caused long-term problems by overworking his pitchers.

Edit: Here's another one to warm your hearts:...in fairness to Wood's handlers, it's possible he just might be the most overrated player in the big leagues.Does that make your day or what?

Hangar18
03-16-2005, 11:45 AM
Good work Ole No.2. The Cubs can probably still end
up with Texeira anyway, as the Rangers are shopping him.
Too bad they'll have nowhere to play him hahahahahahahaahhaa.
Ironically, had Pud Selig not been Conflicted-of-Interested,
the Cubs wouldve had Texeira anyway .........

I love Cub Hand-wringing!!!!!

mdep524
03-16-2005, 11:48 AM
Another great line from the article:

None of this seemed to matter in 2003, when Baker arrived fresh from a trip to the World Series with San Francisco. He had autonomy and anyone pointing out the load he put on Prior (then 22) and Wood was accused of yellow journalism.
God forbid anybody criticize Dusty! :o:

NonetheLoaiza
03-16-2005, 12:20 PM
I know this is an age old argument...but the most important stat to me is that Wood has never won more than 14 games in a season. The most overhyped, overrated pitcher in the National League is supposed to lead the Cubs to the promise land on 14 wins? Buehrle gets little to no attention for being the pitcher that he is, but Wood gets all the attention for being the pitcher he is supposed to be, but is not...

EDIT: What this has to do with the original post? I don't know. The thread just made this come out. Sorry if I highjacked...

Baby Fisk
03-16-2005, 12:26 PM
I know this is an age old argument...but the most important stat to me is that Wood has never won more than 14 games in a season. The most overhyped, overrated pitcher in the National League is supposed to lead the Cubs to the promise land on 14 wins? Buehrle gets little to no attention for being the pitcher that he is, but Wood gets all the attention for being the pitcher he is supposed to be, but is not...

EDIT: What this has to do with the original post? I don't know. The thread just made this come out. Sorry if I highjacked...
Talk about overrated? Wood's hype has always been based on striking out 20 batters in his second month in the majors. Since then he's been, as they would say in Texas, "all hat". :rolleyes:

As for the media finally turning on Dusty...imagine that! It will make an interesting sidebar to the Summer of the Sox! :bandance:

jackbrohamer
03-16-2005, 12:30 PM
So basically everyone in the world is to blame for Kerry Wood not being a great pitcher except for Wood himself.

samram
03-16-2005, 01:10 PM
So basically everyone in the world is to blame for Kerry Wood not being a great pitcher except for Wood himself.

I think people are partially blaming Dusty for the arm problems Wood and Prior have experienced over the last two seasons. No one is blaming anyone but Wood for the five inning, eight-walk, 125 pitch outings that he features about twice a month.

chuckn98229
03-16-2005, 01:28 PM
It looks like the Tass/Pravda of Chicago (i.e. the Cubune) may be starting to plant the seeds of Dusty's demise. Remember how staunchly they defended Sammy after his corked-bat was discovered? That was when they still wanted him. Then remember how quickly the stories changed to demonize Sammy when they finally discovered he was a malignant cancer? (Not very quick studies, were they?). If I were Dusty, I would be watching my back and keeping a suitcase handy. Josef Stalin would be right proud of these tools.

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 01:29 PM
Boy, they must have run out of blue Kool-Aide at Tribune Tower. Morrissey's column (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-0503160208mar16,1,2678950.column?coll=cs-home-utility) is another beaut. A few choice excerpts: Hardly anyone believes what the Cubs say anymore, not at face value, not even at two-faced value.Real Diagnosis vs. Cubs Diagnosis:

Real: Grade III concussion Cubs: Bad hair day
Real: E coli Cubs: E-4
Real: Stroke profoundly affecting speech Cubs: "He simply doesn't like talking with the media."

PatK
03-16-2005, 01:42 PM
There's also an error in the article. He called Dusty the "Manager of the Year" for 2003, when it was Jack McKeon.

I e-mailed Rogers about that one.

His article is somewhat correct about Wood. I've been saying since the Cubs burned out his arm after riding it to make the Wild Card in '98 that Kerry would always have problems if they continued to have him throw high pitch counts.

It was kind of great to see a Cubune writer bring up those criticisms of the Cubs and calling Kerry overrated, especially after naming some of the pitchers that have had 15+ wins since.

shoota
03-16-2005, 01:56 PM
Phil Rogers column (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-050315rogers,1,1416742.column?coll=cs-home-utility) today is a typical Cubs hand-wringer, but it's still good for amusement, especially the opening line:He's just discovered that St. Dusty has caused long-term problems by overworking his pitchers.

Dusty Baker has to be the most difficult, combative manager in all of baseball. He is so abusive to the media, even when they're asking expected questions. He makes excuses and shifts blame on a regular basis, even when the media isn't putting blame on him.

Even the lifelong Cub fan beat reporters have to be sick of Dusty's combative nonsense.

cheeses_h_rice
03-16-2005, 02:49 PM
I know this is an age old argument...but the most important stat to me is that Wood has never won more than 14 games in a season. The most overhyped, overrated pitcher in the National League is supposed to lead the Cubs to the promise land on 14 wins? Buehrle gets little to no attention for being the pitcher that he is, but Wood gets all the attention for being the pitcher he is supposed to be, but is not....

I'm not trying to make excuses, but I do remember several times when Wood got almost no run support after pitching great games the last 2 years, so his win totals could easily have been 17-18.

My biggest gripe about Wood's stature is how often he's made to look good by quick-triggered opponents at the plate. So often Wood is wild, but gets bailed out by batters swinging at garbage pitches way out of the zone. When he's off his game, all the opposing hitters need to do is keep the ****ing bat on their shoulders.

Tekijawa
03-16-2005, 03:04 PM
So basically everyone in the world is to blame for Kerry Wood not being a great pitcher except for Wood himself.

And Rogers can now be blamed for the Cubs not going to the World Series this year... The Cubs needed someone to take the fall this year, I'm sure Phil will get a nice fat raise for doing so!

mweflen
03-16-2005, 03:23 PM
anyone have that "welcome to last week" picture to award Rogers' stunning insight? Except, it should read "welcome to 2003." Who didn't know thatBaker overused pitchers? Shoot, even CUBS FANS knew. Which means it was pretty frippin' obvious.

He must have really been having a slow day as far as column writing goes. That said, he is the Cubune's best columnist. He features unbiased Sox content probably 40% of the time.

jackbrohamer
03-16-2005, 04:00 PM
My biggest gripe about Wood's stature is how often he's made to look good by quick-triggered opponents at the plate. So often Wood is wild, but gets bailed out by batters swinging at garbage pitches way out of the zone. When he's off his game, all the opposing hitters need to do is keep the ****ing bat on their shoulders.

I absolutely agree. During the '03 playoffs the Brave hitters swung at anything he threw at them; he's a headcase who almost always gets wild if hitters give him the chance.

NonetheLoaiza
03-16-2005, 04:38 PM
I'm not trying to make excuses, but I do remember several times when Wood got almost no run support after pitching great games the last 2 years, so his win totals could easily have been 17-18.


I agree with you to an extent, but how often can that be said about a lot of pitchers? Esteban could have had about 26 wins in '03, but that wasn't the case. Buehrle could have won 20+ games awhile back too.

Banix12
03-16-2005, 05:20 PM
I'm not trying to make excuses, but I do remember several times when Wood got almost no run support after pitching great games the last 2 years, so his win totals could easily have been 17-18.

My biggest gripe about Wood's stature is how often he's made to look good by quick-triggered opponents at the plate. So often Wood is wild, but gets bailed out by batters swinging at garbage pitches way out of the zone. When he's off his game, all the opposing hitters need to do is keep the ****ing bat on their shoulders.

Yeah, I actually checked and last year Wood had 7 starts where he got a loss or a ND despite that he pitched 7 innings or more and held the opposing hitters to 3 runs or less. If he had won those games he would have gone 15-6 even with the injuries.

The fact that the cubs don't hit behind him is one thing but remember that Wood in his tenure with the cubs has been backed up by rather shady middle releivers and iffy closers like Alfonseca, Hawkins, and the aging Rick Aguliera.

The fact that he's only won 14 games in a season is more a testiment to the futility of the cubs to back him up, not a testiment to any lack of ability by Wood.

Kerry Wood is basically a more polished version of Jose Contreras, he's got a good fastball and good breaking stuff which causes the hitters to largely beat themselves by swinging at bad pitches. However the way to beat both pitchers is to just leave the bat on your shoulder, draw walks on his curve, and then sit on a high fastball.

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 05:39 PM
Yeah, I actually checked and last year Wood had 7 starts where he got a loss or a ND despite that he pitched 7 innings or more and held the opposing hitters to 3 runs or less. If he had won those games he would have gone 15-6 even with the injuries.

The fact that the cubs don't hit behind him is one thing but remember that Wood in his tenure with the cubs has been backed up by rather shady middle releivers and iffy closers like Alfonseca, Hawkins, and the aging Rick Aguliera.

The fact that he's only won 14 games in a season is more a testiment to the futility of the cubs to back him up, not a testiment to any lack of ability by Wood.

Kerry Wood is basically a more polished version of Jose Contreras, he's got a good fastball and good breaking stuff which causes the hitters to largely beat themselves by swinging at bad pitches. However the way to beat both pitchers is to just leave the bat on your shoulder, draw walks on his curve, and then sit on a high fastball.True to some extent, but he wouldn't be so vulnerable to having his game blown by the BP if he wasn't throwing 120 pitches in the first 6 innings. Also, some pitchers have the ability to bear down when the team's not scoring runs. Wood doesn't.

Banix12
03-16-2005, 07:43 PM
True to some extent, but he wouldn't be so vulnerable to having his game blown by the BP if he wasn't throwing 120 pitches in the first 6 innings. Also, some pitchers have the ability to bear down when the team's not scoring runs. Wood doesn't.

It's not true to some extent, it's just plain true. A pitcher's wins and losses are often dictated by factors out of his control, and thus is not a strong indicator of a player's success. In this age of closers and specialized bullpens, with fewer and fewer pitchers going 9 innings the game is often more and more out of the hands of the starting pitcher. Things like Quality Starts, BA Against, and ERA are more effective indicators of a pitcher's success. Maybe he won't last as long in the league because he goes so deep into games and pitch counts, but during the time he has pitched he has kept his ERA fairly low and has been an effective starter on what has been a lousy team for the most part.

As far as Wood, I'd call giving up 1-2 runs over eight innings bearing down, which he did a few times last season and failed to get the decision. In fact wasn't there a game in St. Louis where he hit a homerun which consisted of the entire cubs offense for that night? Yeah he does wear himself down going for strikeouts, but I don't think he has trusted the defense behind him.

Wood is a good player who happens to be on a team I hate. That is the only reason I need to not like Kerry Wood. I can't fault him for the way he pitches because it seems to work, so I'm not going to make up stupid reasons about how he's a bad pitcher to validate my feelings. He's a cub, and that's all I need to know.

And here's a question, If Greg Maddux had spent the 90's on the cubs instead of the Braves, would he have won the same amount of games and still have the streak of seasons with 15 or more wins? I gotta think he would have been in a similar boat as Wood is.

mcfish
03-16-2005, 09:42 PM
He must have really been having a slow day as far as column writing goes. That said, he is the Cubune's best columnist. He features unbiased Sox content probably 40% of the time.so 40% of the time he's writing about the Sox it's unbiased? Or am I to believe that a writer for the Cubune actually spends 40% of his reporting time on the White Sox? I don't know that the Cubune's beat writer on the Sox spends that 40% on the Sox, let alone Phil Rogers.

DrCrawdad
03-16-2005, 09:52 PM
Boy, they must have run out of blue Kool-Aide at Tribune Tower. Morrissey's column (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-0503160208mar16,1,2678950.column?coll=cs-home-utility) is another beaut. A few choice excerpts:Real Diagnosis vs. Cubs Diagnosis:

Real: Grade III concussion Cubs: Bad hair day
Real: E coli Cubs: E-4
Real: Stroke profoundly affecting speech Cubs: "He simply doesn't like talking with the media."


:roflmao:
VERY GOOD!

If I were Johnny Carson I'd call you over for a chat after that.

DrCrawdad
03-16-2005, 10:02 PM
It looks like the Tass/Pravda of Chicago (i.e. the Cubune)

Tass/Pravda of Chicago? I love that! FANTASTIC!

may be starting to plant the seeds of Dusty's demise. Remember how staunchly they defended Sammy after his corked-bat was discovered? That was when they still wanted him. Then remember how quickly the stories changed to demonize Sammy when they finally discovered he was a malignant cancer? (Not very quick studies, were they?). If I were Dusty, I would be watching my back and keeping a suitcase handy. Josef Stalin would be right proud of these tools.

I think you're right. On the other hand, that four year 16 million dollar contract (or whatever amount it is) might make Tass/Pravda of Chicago hesitant to fire him.

When these type of comments have been made, or when Sox fans talk about the Cubune's treatment of the Sox and Sox fans, people will say, 'Oh you conspiracy nuts...You think they have a meeting about this...'

I don't believe the Cubune (Tass/Pravda of Chicago) had a meeting about turning their guns on Sosa. Nor would I expect that they've discussed in meetings ways to screw the Sox. As Robert Zimmerman said, "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

Ok, now I'll remove my tinfoil hat.

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 11:32 PM
:roflmao:
VERY GOOD!

If I were Johnny Carson I'd call you over for a chat after that.If you were Johnny Carson, you wouldn't smell too good right now.:cool:

fquaye149
03-17-2005, 04:13 AM
so 40% of the time he's writing about the Sox it's unbiased? Or am I to believe that a writer for the Cubune actually spends 40% of his reporting time on the White Sox? I don't know that the Cubune's beat writer on the Sox spends that 40% on the Sox, let alone Phil Rogers.

Reading Phil, it seems like your former statement fits his writing selection - that 40% of the articles he writes about the sox are unbiased. Remember his recent article about Ozzie being a hypocrite?...The Wrigley Media Machine marches ever onward.

chuckn98229
03-17-2005, 10:17 AM
I don't believe the Cubune (Tass/Pravda of Chicago) had a meeting about turning their guns on Sosa.

I think that most management sends subtle, unspoken messages as to what/who is fair game to attack and what is not. With Sammy, they reported that security cameras had captured his escape in the first innings. If they had wanted him gone when the cork was discovered, you can bet that reports of additional corked bats would have surfaced.

Fake Chet Lemon
03-17-2005, 11:15 PM
I'm not trying to make excuses, but I do remember several times when Wood got almost no run support after pitching great games the last 2 years, so his win totals could easily have been 17-18.

To be objective, did you also subtract wins in games where big run support bailed him out?