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PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 09:20 AM
As part of the ongoing BALCO grand jury investigation, Barry Bonds' trainer Greg Anderson is facing criminal charges for distributing steroids. So now his attorney is cutting a deal with prosecutors to avoid trial.

BALCO hearing delayed; Plea deal may be in works (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cs-0503160217mar16,1,2324729.story)

Can you say "state's witness", Mr. Barry Bonds?
:wink:

This scandal is spreading. It's pretty obvous more than one ballplayer is using steroids and the state's attorney is cutting deals with anyone who rats out the others first, but only if they offer even more information to trap even more cheats and crooks. Beautiful...

"Step right up! Step right up! Don't be the last one to be indicted... or you'll certainly regret it later!"
:roflmao:

This scandal isn't over. It's barely even begun...

Baby Fisk
03-16-2005, 09:26 AM
Oh my!

Frater Perdurabo
03-16-2005, 10:02 AM
This scandal is spreading. It's pretty obvous more than one ballplayer is using steroids and the state's attorney is cutting deals with anyone who rats out the others first, but only if they offer even more information to trap even more cheats and crooks. Beautiful...

"Step right up! Step right up! Don't be the last one to be indicted... or you'll certainly regret it later!"
:roflmao:

This scandal isn't over. It's barely even begun...

George, do you think before all is said and done, some MLB players actually would go to prison?

Mickster
03-16-2005, 10:10 AM
George, do you think before all is said and done, some MLB players actually would go to prison?

I seriously doubt any players would go to prison.

Frater Perdurabo
03-16-2005, 10:12 AM
I seriously doubt any players would go to prison.

I would tend to agree with you, but I'm interested in PHG's prediction(s).

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 10:20 AM
Prison? No.

Community service? Hugh'betcha. Lots of it.

daveeym
03-16-2005, 10:22 AM
Prison? No.

Community service? Hugh'betcha. Lots of it. Now an ex-player or fringe player/career minor leaguer that's been supplying I'm not too sure about. Maybe a Marthaesque sentence or less.

samram
03-16-2005, 10:58 AM
Now an ex-player or fringe player/career minor leaguer that's been supplying I'm not too sure about. Maybe a Marthaesque sentence or less.

I could see that if he's high enough up in a distribution network. Otherwise, I would think a guy like that would be better used to get someone higher up in the organization.

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 11:08 AM
Typically, prosecutors aren't interested in nailing users. They're after the big fish in the production and distribution network, and they give the users and the small fry a pass if they cooperate. Does anyone see Barry Bonds cooperating? Me neither.

Flight #24
03-16-2005, 11:19 AM
Typically, prosecutors aren't interested in nailing users. They're after the big fish in the production and distribution network, and they give the users and the small fry a pass if they cooperate. Does anyone see Barry Bonds cooperating? Me neither.

Spot on. IMO you'll only see a player or players actually indicted to send a message to others that they'd better cooperate to nail the distributors/labs.

Otherwise, all you'll see is players testifying with immunity and baseball won't be able to do a thing because IIRC, admissions of past steroid use aren't classified as positive tests under the new policy. But the court of public opinion is something different.

StillMissOzzie
03-16-2005, 11:29 AM
But the court of public opinion is something different.

I agree. Getting branded as a cheater could be worse than a community service sentence. To quote a local non-sports (and Sox fan) columnist, John Kass, "...those that talk first get the best seats on the bus."

SMO
:gulp:

voodoochile
03-16-2005, 11:42 AM
Typically, prosecutors aren't interested in nailing users. They're after the big fish in the production and distribution network, and they give the users and the small fry a pass if they cooperate. Does anyone see Barry Bonds cooperating? Me neither.

For Barry to cooperate he would first have to admit wrong doing. He still isn't at that stage yet. He's still fighting to hold onto his claim that he didn't even know he was taking steroids.

If Barry comes out and changes that story, the 73 HR season just goes *Poof* in both the eyes of the public and possibly with MLB too.

Denial... it's not just a river in Egypt...

Flight #24
03-16-2005, 11:46 AM
For Barry to cooperate he would first have to admit wrong doing. He still isn't at that stage yet. He's still fighting to hold onto his claim that he didn't even know he was taking steroids.

If Barry comes out and changes that story, the 73 HR season just goes *Poof* in both the eyes of the public and possibly with MLB too.

Denial... it's not just a river in Egypt...

IMO no chance of that happening. Selig's already repeatedly talked about how you can't asterisk everything, revisit old awards, etc after Giambi's testimony. I don't see baseball doing anything official. Of course fans will treat the record differently, but then they're already doing that IMO.

And FWIW - Barry's backed into a corner right now. He admits it and he's guilty of perjury. The only way he does anything is if Anderson names him, even then it's his word against Barry's as to what he told him (unless there are other witnesses). Unlikely that they can get Barry to change his story. But there are plenty of others they can go to.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 11:50 AM
For Barry to cooperate he would first have to admit wrong doing. He still isn't at that stage yet. He's still fighting to hold onto his claim that he didn't even know he was taking steroids.

If Barry comes out and changes that story, the 73 HR season just goes *Poof* in both the eyes of the public and possibly with MLB too.

Denial... it's not just a river in Egypt...

And you know what the funny part is? The prosecutors already have his written confession. It simply hasn't been released pending the trial of others at BALCO. And now that Bonds' personal trainer has gone state's witness, Bonds is looking at perjury to repeat his lies on the witness stand.
:roflmao:

Oh Barry is definitely going to come clean. He isn't going to do jail time just so Bud Selig can keep his butt planted in the commissioner's seat.
:tool
"Come on, Barry! Take one for the team!"

:nandrolone
"Listen to Bud. For the first time in your life, Barry, think about somebody besides yourself. Big Mac and I are co-home run champions and our reputations might get smeared!"

Personally I can't wait for the hounds to tree Mark McGwire and Tony LaRussa. Oh buddy, that one is going to be good.
:cool:

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 12:07 PM
And you know what the funny part is? The prosecutors already have his written confession. It simply hasn't been released pending the trial of others at BALCO. And now that Bonds' personal trainer has gone state's witness, Bonds is looking at perjury to repeat his lies on the witness stand.
:roflmao:

Oh Barry is definitely going to come clean. He isn't going to do jail time just so Bud Selig can keep his butt planted in the commissioner's seat.

Personally I can't wait for the hounds to tree Mark McGwire and Tony LaRussa. Oh buddy, that one is going to be good.
:cool:I thought Bonds testified that he took the stuff but thought it was flaxseed oil? (Wouldn't you have thought Bonds could have paid someone to come up with something better than that?) As long as Anderson doesn't contradict him, he's not going to get charged with perjury. Even if Anderson does, that's a tough perjury case to make stick. It's his word against Bonds'. They might make Bonds sweat enough to come clean, which would be sweet.

This whole thing is really fluid. Somebody's going down - it's just hard to tell who yet. I can't really say I'm looking forward to seeing McGwire or LaRussa or any player get nailed - even Sosa. The one guy I AM hoping to see barbequed is Bud Selig.

Flight #24
03-16-2005, 12:13 PM
And you know what the funny part is? The prosecutors already have his written confession.

Just curious PHG - where did you hear/read this? Everything I've seen says that Barry's "confession" is that he may have taken them but he didn't know they were steroids. Not saying that that passes the "smell test", but knowing it and proving it are 2 different things.

Have you seen anything that indicates Barry's admitted something different?

daveeym
03-16-2005, 12:15 PM
Can't wait to see endorsements yanked out from under these guys. Never have to see Sammy in another Pepsi commercial again.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 12:17 PM
I thought Bonds testified that he took the stuff but thought it was flaxseed oil? (Wouldn't you have thought Bonds could have paid someone to come up with something better than that?) As long as Anderson doesn't contradict him, he's not going to get charged with perjury. Even if Anderson does, that's a tough perjury case to make stick. It's his word against Bonds'. They might make Bonds sweat enough to come clean, which would be sweet.

Let me put it to you this way. Once Greg Anderson agrees to turn state's witness, it's in his own best interest to give the prosecution EVERYTHING he's got. By definition, anything he doesn't offer is one less thing for the prosecution to bother offering Anderson a better plea deal. The terms of his plea deal will undoubtedly require his full cooperation, too. If he hedges, he goes to jail.

Here's betting Anderson has plenty of physical evidence (liked signed receipts, for example) to contradict any b.s. story Barry might invent.

By Barry's own admission, Barry and Anderson were tight. They aren't so tight that they would enter a conspiracy after one of them has already turned state's witness. Barry is going down on baseball... and Selig is the first one to get flattened.
:wink:

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 12:23 PM
Let me put it to you this way. Once Greg Anderson agrees to turn state's witness, it's in his own best interest to give the prosecution EVERYTHING he's got. By definition, anything he doesn't offer is one less thing less for the prosecution to bother offering Anderson a better plea deal. The terms of his plea deal will undoubtedly require his full cooperation, too. If he hedges, he goes to jail.

Here's betting Anderson has plenty of physical evidence (liked signed receipts, for example) to contradict any b.s. story Barry might invent.

By Barry's own admission, Barry and Anderson were tight. They aren't so tight that they would enter a conspiracy after one of them has already turned state's witness. Barry is going down on baseball... and Selig is the first one to get flattened.
:wink:Right. Most plea agreements require you to tell everything you know. Holding back is grounds for yanking the deal. It's pretty certain Anderson is going to spill his guts. The question is, does he have anything sufficiently incriminating against Bonds? I guess we're going to find out. But I'm with you. The one I'd most like to see hanging from the yardarm is Bud Selig.

Flight #24
03-16-2005, 12:30 PM
Right. Most plea agreements require you to tell everything you know. Holding back is grounds for yanking the deal. It's pretty certain Anderson is going to spill his guts. The question is, does he have anything sufficiently incriminating against Bonds? I guess we're going to find out. But I'm with you. The one I'd most like to see hanging from the yardarm is Bud Selig.

What yardarm is Selig going to hang from exactly? You think someone's going to have any proof that Bud knew, or assisted in anything? IMO you'll get some knowledge of widespread usage among players, but I'd be very surprised if any owners or baseball executives will be named as participants in the usage of steroids. The best you'll get is more public opinion to the effect that "they had to have known".

Or do you really think that there were institutionalized setups to help provide steroids to players? Even if trainers were distributing them, I'd doubt highly if it was sanctioned in any way by the team in any way except by looking the other way - something that it's tough to convict anyone on.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 12:30 PM
The one I'd most like to see hanging from the yardarm is Bud Selig.

Selig is going down. Book it.

voodoochile
03-16-2005, 12:35 PM
Let me put it to you this way. Once Greg Anderson agrees to turn state's witness, it's in his own best interest to give the prosecution EVERYTHING he's got. By definition, anything he doesn't offer is one less thing for the prosecution to bother offering Anderson a better plea deal. The terms of his plea deal will undoubtedly require his full cooperation, too. If he hedges, he goes to jail.

Here's betting Anderson has plenty of physical evidence (liked signed receipts, for example) to contradict any b.s. story Barry might invent.

By Barry's own admission, Barry and Anderson were tight. They aren't so tight that they would enter a conspiracy after one of them has already turned state's witness. Barry is going down on baseball... and Selig is the first one to get flattened.
:wink:

Oh that is going to be a real kick in the teeth to Bonds. His ego is NOT going to allow him to do this gracefully. The vitrol is about to be turned up a notch.

[spinal tap] It goes to eleven...[/spinal tap]

Given the fact that both sides of the MLB system have a propensity for hanging the other out to dry this is going to get REALLY REALLY ugly.

BTW, what was that quote about Joe Borchard? He has the most natural power of any minor leaguer since Mark McGwire. The question now is "Did Mark McGwire have that much natural power, or was he just doing steroids since his late teens?" If so, is MLB really going to claim that the minor league instructors knew nothing about it?

Tip of the iceberg. Hang onto your hat's it's going to be a wild ride...

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 12:36 PM
What yardarm is Selig going to hang from exactly? You think someone's going to have any proof that Bud knew, or assisted in anything?

Selig is going down because the owners need to look like they're serious about fixing this steroids scandal. It's a public relations need. Criminal conspiracy has nothing to do with it.

MLB can't look clean while the man who turned a blind eye to all of this remains in charge. Peter Ueberroth was shown the door for the same reason back in the 1980's when baseball's free agent conspiracy first came to light.

Baseball commissioners serve in the owners' interest, not baseball's. Stop believing the fairytales guys like Bart Giamatti and Jerome Holtzman used to spin.

Flight #24
03-16-2005, 12:45 PM
Selig is going down because the owners need to look like they're serious about fixing this steroids scandal. It's a public relations need. Criminal conspiracy has nothing to do with it.

MLB can't look clean while the man who turned a blind eye to all of this remains in charge. Peter Ueberroth was shown the door for the same reason back in the 1980's when baseball's free agent conspiracy first came to light.

Baseball commissioners serve in the owners' interest, not baseball's. Stop believing the fairytales guys like Bart Giamatti and Jerome Holtzman used to spin.

No disagreement here - it's going to look bad for baseball as the widespread usage comes out (or gets proven). That may well cost Bud his commissionership, unless he can effectively spin it as more of an MLBPA issue (i.e. we would have done things earlier, but they wouldn't allow it - look at our minor league policy). They've been somewhat effective at doing that so far (hence the intense pressure on MLBPA to reopen the drug testing policy).

But I doubt the government's even going to think about Selig in the Balco case. They're looking for makers & distributors and he's nowhere near that chain.

wdelaney72
03-16-2005, 01:07 PM
If Selig goes down

:whocares

They'll just put in another version of him. It will be someone who has the owner's interest at heart, not the fans, not the players.

Please spell it out for me. While I agree that Bud is an idiot, I don't see how someone else as commissioner is good for fans.

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 01:19 PM
Selig is going down because the owners need to look like they're serious about fixing this steroids scandal. It's a public relations need. Criminal conspiracy has nothing to do with it.

MLB can't look clean while the man who turned a blind eye to all of this remains in charge. Peter Ueberroth was shown the door for the same reason back in the 1980's when baseball's free agent conspiracy first came to light.

Baseball commissioners serve in the owners' interest, not baseball's. Stop believing the fairytales guys like Bart Giamatti and Jerome Holtzman used to spin.The guy who I really want to see testifying is the FBI agent who brought all this to the league's attention 10 years ago and was ignored. That all by itself could harpoon the jobs of Bud Selig and many of MLB's top brass.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 01:29 PM
If Selig goes down... who cares?

They'll just put in another version of him. It will be someone who has the owner's interest at heart, not the fans, not the players.

Please spell it out for me. While I agree that Bud is an idiot, I don't see how someone else as commissioner is good for fans.

We all need to give up the fairytale, delaney. Baseball commissioners have never served in the interest of the fans or of baseball generally. They serve at the bequest of the owners. It's been like this from Day 1.

Selig's ouster won't change anything, but it will change the public's perception. That's all the owners are really interested in accomplishing. It's been this way ever since Kennesaw Landis was hired to "get gambling" out of baseball.

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 01:39 PM
We all need to give up the fairytale, delaney. Baseball commissioners have never served in the interest of the fans or of baseball generally. They serve at the bequest of the owners. It's been like this from Day 1.

Selig's ouster won't change anything, but it will change the public's perception. That's all the owners are really interested in accomplishing. It's been this way ever since Kennesaw Landis was hired to "get gambling" out of baseball.Maybe I'm just an optimist, but IMO Selig has been an unmitigated disaster. Replacing him there's only one way to go, and that's up. I guess it's possible they could find someone worse, but they'd have to turn over a lot of rocks to find one.

wdelaney72
03-16-2005, 01:48 PM
We all need to give up the fairytale, delaney. Baseball commissioners have never served in the interest of the fans or of baseball generally. They serve at the bequest of the owners. It's been like this from Day 1.

Selig's ouster won't change anything, but it will change the public's perception. That's all the owners are really interested in accomplishing. It's been this way ever since Kennesaw Landis was hired to "get gambling" out of baseball.

No fairy tale here. I basically said that commissioners don't serve the interest of the fan.

All I was saying as that it appears that people are getting excited about Bud bing ousted, when in the end, it will change nothing. Bud will still be rich as hell, and not have to work for a living. Baseball owners will still be rich owners and players will still be rich players. Frank Thomas still won't be the 2000 MVP. Barry Bonds will still hold the single season HR record, with McGwire and Sosa right behind him. I just don't see how watching Bud Selig being hung out to dry is something to get excited about.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 01:54 PM
Maybe I'm just an optimist, but IMO Selig has been an unmitigated disaster. Replacing him there's only one way to go, and that's up. I guess it's possible they could find someone worse, but they'd have to turn over a lot of rocks to find one.

All of baseball's gains in popularity back in the 90's are beginning to look illusory, aren't they?
:cool:

I agree Selig has been a disaster, perhaps even the worst commissioner ever. However there is a lot of competition for that title. Uebberoth cost the owners hundreds of millions of dollars for conspiring against free agents. The Unknown Soldier took no action and allowed baseball to slip into second place in popularity behind the NFL. Giamatti spent most of his tenure chasing Pete Rose from baseball, and everybody hated Bowie Kuhn even while he was still serving as commissioner. And don't even get me started about that twisted racist idiot...
:wink:

Tough to pick the worst, really.

daveeym
03-16-2005, 02:30 PM
As good a thread as any I guess. Espn has on their homepage a great collection of articles. The article on Hooton's nephew is good. They have a great interactive page on what steroids do for and to the body etc. etc. That's kinda hidden but it's called "The Dope On Steroids" and then a bunch of other articles. Good info for those that were questioning what steroids do what etc. in other threads.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 03:40 PM
Just curious PHG - where did you hear/read this? ....

Have you seen anything that indicates Barry's admitted something different?

It's grand jury testimony. That means it is NOT AVAILABLE until an actual indictment is handed down and the evidence is introduced into open court.

Of course the information was leaked to the media that Bonds confessed to the grand jury but coped the excuse that he thought it was just flaxseed oil. Yeah, sure... his personal trainer has been turned state's witness. He'll have plenty to say about Bonds' honesty on this point.

That's spelled P-E-R-J-U-R-Y, Mr. Bonds.

That's what makes Bonds' performance at his press conference earlier this month so amusing. He's behaving like the testimony didn't happen... as though it will never see the light of day... as if he can bull**** his way through all of this because the outside world can be counted on to lick his boots the same way the sports mediots in the pressroom always do.

Barry Bonds is delusional. He's being set up for a HUGE fall. Book it.
:cool:

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 03:49 PM
It's grand jury testimony. That means it is NOT AVAILABLE until an actual indictment is handed down and the evidence is introduced into open court.

Of course the information was leaked to the media that Bonds confessed to the grand jury but coped the excuse that he thought it was just flaxseed oil. Yeah, sure... his personal trainer has been turned state's witness. He'll have plenty to say about Bonds' honesty on this point.

That's spelled P-E-R-J-U-R-Y, Mr. Bonds.

That's what makes Bonds' performance at his press conference earlier this month so amusing. He's behaving like the testimony didn't happen... as though it will never see the light of day... as if he can bull**** his way through all of this because the outside world can be counted on to lick his boots the same way the sports mediots in the pressroom always do.

Barry Bonds is delusional. He's being set up for a HUGE fall. Book it.
:cool:I would love to have been a fly on the wall during those grand jury proceedings. I'll bet anything Bonds went in there thinking he could BS the prosecuting attorneys the way he BS's sports mediots. There must have been a very rude awakening.

Flight #24
03-16-2005, 03:51 PM
It's grand jury testimony. That means it is NOT AVAILABLE until an actual indictment is handed down and the evidence is introduced into open court.

Of course the information was leaked to the media that Bonds confessed to the grand jury but coped the excuse that he thought it was just flaxseed oil. Yeah, sure... his personal trainer has been turned state's witness. He'll have plenty to say about Bonds' honesty on this point.

That's spelled P-E-R-J-U-R-Y, Mr. Bonds.

That's what makes Bonds' performance at his press conference earlier this month so amusing. He's behaving like the testimony didn't happen... as though it will never see the light of day... as if he can bull**** his way through all of this because the outside world can be counted on to lick his boots the same way the sports mediots in the pressroom always do.

Barry Bonds is delusional. He's being set up for a HUGE fall. Book it.
:cool:

The leaked testimony I saw & heard about all had him saying that he used substances that he thought were things other than steroids. If Anderson sells him out, unless he's got documentation, it'll be his word against Barry's as to what Barry knew to make a perjury charge stick. I'm not a lawyer, but that doesn't seem like an easy charge to make, and you KNOW Barry's not admitting anything unless he absolutely has to. Now if they have or can find hard evidence (signed receipts, etc), or other witnesses, that could change in a hurry.

Nowhere have I seen it leaked or rumored that Barry admitted anything else to the grand jury, especially nothing along the lines of knowingly using steroids. So I doubt that there's anything in his testimony that once made public would contradict his public statements.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 03:57 PM
The leaked testimony I saw & heard about all had him saying that he used substances that he thought were things other than steroids. If Anderson sells him out, unless he's got documentation, it'll be his word against Barry's as to what Barry knew to make a perjury charge stick. I'm not a lawyer, but that doesn't seem like an easy charge to make, and you KNOW Barry's not admitting anything unless he absolutely has to. Now if they have or can find hard evidence (signed receipts, etc), or other witnesses, that could change in a hurry.

Nowhere have I seen it leaked or rumored that Barry admitted anything else to the grand jury, especially nothing along the lines of knowingly using steroids. So I doubt that there's anything in his testimony that once made public would contradict his public statements.

This is silly. Let me ask you a very simple question.

If in fact Barry told the GJ that he was told it was just flaxseed oil, who is taking the fall for Bonds' steroid use?

Go ahead, you can figure it out.

Here's a hint: the guy just cut a deal to become state's witness.

Friendship or not, Anderson's got the goods on Barry. The state's attorney is offering Anderson a better deal than Barry was offering with his "flaxseed" excuse. Barry ended his friendship with that one, and he has only himself to blame. (Not that that narcissistic jerk would ever admit it.)

Sucks to be Barry.
:cool:

Flight #24
03-16-2005, 04:08 PM
This is silly. Let me ask you a very simple question.

If in fact Barry told the GJ that he was told it was just flaxseed oil, who is taking the fall for Bonds' steroid use?

Go ahead, you can figure it out.

Here's a hint: the guy just cut a deal to become state's witness.

Friendship or not, Anderson's got the goods on Barry. The state's attorney is offering Anderson a better deal than Barry was offering with his "flaxseed" excuse. Barry ended his friendship with that one, and he has only himself to blame. (Not that that narcissistic jerk would ever admit it.)

Sucks to be Barry.
:cool:

I'd guess that the DOJ's more interested in Anderson rolling over on his source than his clients. They couldn't really care less about Barry using 'Roids (unlike Congress), but they DO care about who's selling them to him. So I don't think Anderson turning state's evidence means that he's got the goods on Barry - it means he's got the goods on Conte & co. That's DOJ's prime focus.

Of course, he may also have the goods on Barry, but that's likely of less importance to the GJ. EDIT: The only interst DOJ may have is in getting Barry to also roll over on Conte & co, or in makign him an example to get other players to roll.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 04:20 PM
I'd guess that the DOJ's more interested in Anderson rolling over on his source than his clients. They couldn't really care less about Barry using 'Roids (unlike Congress), but they DO care about who's selling them to him. So I don't think Anderson turning state's evidence means that he's got the goods on Barry - it means he's got the goods on Conte & co. That's DOJ's prime focus.

Of course, he may also have the goods on Barry, but that's likely of less importance to the GJ. EDIT: The only interst DOJ may have is in getting Barry to also roll over on Conte & co, or in makign him an example to get other players to roll.

Sure, they're after BALCO. But Barry turned on Anderson. He expected Anderson to take the fall on his behalf. Anderson is in enough trouble without Bonds providing even more evidence against him -- especially when Anderson knows it's a load of bull****.

Anderson has every motivation in the world to reveal what bull**** Bonds is dishing out. He's state witness. Whether the prosecutors pursue it or not is of no real consequence. Bonds' is proven a liar and (probably) a perjurer, too. That's more than enough to tarnish baseball... and it's something far more important, too.

I wouldn't be surprised if a whole new grand jury was created just to investigate steroids in baseball. If BALCO was supplying them in SF, who was supplying them in NY? Or Miami? Or Chicago? This illegal distribution of steroids goes waaaaay beyond BALCO...

Either way, Bonds and baseball are sunk.

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 04:28 PM
Sure, they're after BALCO. But Barry turned on Anderson. He expected Anderson to take the fall on his behalf. Anderson is in enough trouble without Bonds providing even more evidence against him -- especially when Anderson knows it's a load of bull****.

Anderson has every motivation in the world to reveal what bull**** Bonds is dishing out. He's state witness. Whether the prosecutors pursue it or not is of no real consequence. Bonds' is proven a liar and (probably) a perjurer, too. That's more than enough to tarnish baseball... and it's something far more important, too.

I wouldn't be surprised if a whole new grand jury was created just to investigate steroids in baseball. If BALCO was supplying them in SF, who was supplying them in NY? Or Miami? Or Chicago? This illegal distribution of steroids goes waaaaay beyond BALCO...

Either way, Bonds and baseball are sunk.Also remember, prosectors are human. If Bonds is pulling the same belligerant crap with them, is refusing to cooperate and generally acting like the grade-A prick he is, they'll nail his hide to the wall as an example.

voodoochile
03-16-2005, 04:28 PM
The leaked testimony I saw & heard about all had him saying that he used substances that he thought were things other than steroids. If Anderson sells him out, unless he's got documentation, it'll be his word against Barry's as to what Barry knew to make a perjury charge stick. I'm not a lawyer, but that doesn't seem like an easy charge to make, and you KNOW Barry's not admitting anything unless he absolutely has to. Now if they have or can find hard evidence (signed receipts, etc), or other witnesses, that could change in a hurry.

Nowhere have I seen it leaked or rumored that Barry admitted anything else to the grand jury, especially nothing along the lines of knowingly using steroids. So I doubt that there's anything in his testimony that once made public would contradict his public statements.

There is also the strong circumstancial evidence about Barry getting bigger. They can call doctors to testify about the effects of flaxseed oil and on the effects of steroids.

Barry ain't walking away from this one, the question is what will happen to him.

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 04:32 PM
There is also the strong circumstancial evidence about Barry getting bigger. They can call doctors to testify about the effects of flaxseed oil and on the effects of steroids.

Barry ain't walking away from this one, the question is what will happen to him.I can see it now.....

PA: Doctor, can you tell me if it's possible for flaxseed oil to make a person's head grow three sizes larger?

Dr.: Um....no.

:rolling:

voodoochile
03-16-2005, 04:34 PM
I can see it now.....

PA: Doctor, can you tell me if it's possible for flaxseed oil to make a person's head grow three sizes larger?

Dr.: Um....no.

:rolling:

PA: Dr. would you have to be a complete idiot or willing to be intentionally lied to to believe it was Flaxseed oil?

Dr.: um... yes.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 04:37 PM
Also remember, prosectors are human. If Bonds is pulling the same belligerant crap with them, is refusing to cooperate and generally acting like the grade-A prick he is, they'll nail his hide to the wall as an example.

Word.

If I'm the prosecutor, here's the plea bargain I'm offering Anderson:

"You give me everything you've got on your sources at BALCO... and I'm STILL NAILING YOUR ASS for disributing steroids illegally... unless you give me the goods on Bonds. He says you lied and misrepresented what you were giving him... I'm going to nail your ass for every client who cops the same story. Are you and me understanding each other???"

Make an example of Bonds? Oh, buddy... I'll get myself a big fat promotion out of this one, too.

<daydream>
"U.S. District Attorney PHG..."
</daydream>

:cool:

wdelaney72
03-16-2005, 04:39 PM
PHG, I hope you're right. I could care less about Bud Selig being publicly proven a liar, but Barroid, that's entertainment!

I would take great enjoyment in watching that P.O.S. eat his many media tirades.

Flight #24
03-16-2005, 04:44 PM
Word.

If I'm the prosecutor, here's the plea bargain I'm offering Anderson:

"You give me everything you've got on your sources at BALCO... and I'm STILL NAILING YOUR ASS for disributing steroids illegally... unless you give me the goods on Bonds. He says you lied and misrepresented what you were giving him... I'm going to nail your ass for every client who cops the same story. Are you and me understanding each other???"

Make an example of Bonds? Oh, buddy... I'll get myself a big fat promotion out of this one, too.

<daydream>
"U.S. District Attorney PHG..."
</daydream>

:cool:

All true, but without hard evidence or additional witnesses, I don't see them pursuing anything against Barry. It's one thing to nail Bonds and get the PR, it's another to have him get off. Ask Marcia Clarke about that one.

But regardless, Anderson's likely to be saying that Bonds knew what he was doing and in the court of PR, he'll be believed.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-16-2005, 04:52 PM
A...It's one thing to nail Bonds and get the PR, it's another to have him get off. Ask Marcia Clarke about that one....

Marcia Clarke couldn't catch a cold. I'll give these BALCO prosecutors 1-million times more credit for being competent in their work based solely on their getting confessions from Bonds and Giambi.

Oh, and Barry should be so lucky as having Judge Ito winking and nodding at the cameras for 15 straight months.
:cool:

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 04:53 PM
PHG, I hope you're right. I could care less about Bud Selig being publicly proven a liar, but Barroid, that's entertainment!

I would take great enjoyment in watching that P.O.S. eat his many media tirades.Here's where I disagree. As much as I'd love to watch the prosecutors squeeze Barry's shrunken nuts in a vise, I want Selig&Co. to pay even more. Of course, we all know, Selig and the owners wanted steroids out of baseball, but it was the evil MLBPA that stopped them.

Owner#1: Damn, Bonds is hitting HR like there's no tomorrow. And right on the heels of that whole McGwire and Sosa fiasco a few years ago. People are packing the park to see him everywhere he goes.

Owner#2: You're not kidding. My attendance is up 20% over last year and 50% over the last 4 years. Something has to be done. Bud, isn't there any way to stop this?

Selig (shaking head in despair): No, I'm afraid not. Don Fehr is adamantly opposed to any kind of testing. I've begged, I've pleaded, I've even offered to eliminate any salary control measures in return, but he just won't listen. I'm afraid we're going to have to tough it out.

Flight #24
03-16-2005, 04:58 PM
Marcia Clarke couldn't catch a cold. I'll give these BALCO prosecutors 1-million times more credit for being competent in their work based solely on their getting confessions from Bonds and Giambi.

Oh, and Barry should be so lucky as having Judge Ito winking and nodding at the cameras for 15 straight months.
:cool:
:kneeslap:

maurice
03-16-2005, 05:05 PM
If Anderson sells him out, unless he's got documentation, it'll be his word against Barry's

That's plenty. There are people sitting on death row who were convicted of much more serious charges on comparable evidence.

Lip Man 1
03-16-2005, 08:55 PM
For what it's worth Ken Rosenthal from The Sporting News has written a column calling for the ouster of both Selig and Fehr.

Lip

SoxyStu
03-16-2005, 09:36 PM
I agree with Ol' 2. I don't think the point of having Anderson in my pocket (if I were a prosecutor) is to rat out pissy-peon baseball players. I think there is bigger cheese here to go after. And, I think, PHG hit it when he asked who was supplying the rest of the country. For me, going after players is the wrong way on the "hierarchy."

I also, disagree with one of your later posts. The issue I have with your post is your scenario owner #2. First, would you see any owner pleading to Bud Selig to STOP the increasing attendance and revenue, let alone admitting that it was because of one single player not even on his/her team? I don't think so.

I wonder you might be meaning that Selig/owners would fall right in line with our blameshift society (pointing the finger to someone else - the MLBPA in your example). But, I think Bud, as well as many of the other owners in baseball, have had no qualms about steroids in baseball, especially considering how it helped revive attendance and revenue figures in baseball after the disappointing strike season (even though it did take a few years; strike was in 94 and the HR explosion happened in 98). Anything to put bucks in these money-grubbing bastards' pockets is what I think all that matters to them.

FarWestChicago
03-16-2005, 10:46 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if a whole new grand jury was created just to investigate steroids in baseball. If BALCO was supplying them in SF, who was supplying them in NY? Or Miami? Or Chicago? This illegal distribution of steroids goes waaaaay beyond BALCO...:nandrolone

As long as they don't investigate Carribbean islands I'm all for it!!

MRKARNO
03-16-2005, 11:08 PM
FWIW there were no positive tests for THG (or DMT, another designer steroid that nobody knew about before the test results were released without names to Congress) in 2003 and 2004 under Baseball's steroid testing policy so Anderson is going to need to have some solid evidence to the contrary (and I'm not saying he doesn't have it, just that he needs it):

(Subscription required): http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3830

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 11:29 PM
I agree with Ol' 2. I don't think the point of having Anderson in my pocket (if I were a prosecutor) is to rat out pissy-peon baseball players. I think there is bigger cheese here to go after. And, I think, PHG hit it when he asked who was supplying the rest of the country. For me, going after players is the wrong way on the "hierarchy."

I also, disagree with one of your later posts. The issue I have with your post is your scenario owner #2. First, would you see any owner pleading to Bud Selig to STOP the increasing attendance and revenue, let alone admitting that it was because of one single player not even on his/her team? I don't think so.

I wonder you might be meaning that Selig/owners would fall right in line with our blameshift society (pointing the finger to someone else - the MLBPA in your example). But, I think Bud, as well as many of the other owners in baseball, have had no qualms about steroids in baseball, especially considering how it helped revive attendance and revenue figures in baseball after the disappointing strike season (even though it did take a few years; strike was in 94 and the HR explosion happened in 98). Anything to put bucks in these money-grubbing bastards' pockets is what I think all that matters to them.Sheesh. Just when you think the teal isn't necessary...:?:

JKryl
03-17-2005, 03:39 PM
I seriously doubt any players would go to prison.

It all depends on how well the perjury session before Congress goes. No one will do time for taking the 'roids, but if they get caught lying to congress, look out! Just ask Martha Stewart. She didn't go to the slammer for the trading, she went there for lying about it.