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soxyes
03-15-2005, 11:30 AM
In the last 15 seasons, The White Sox have 11 winning seasons and only 4 losing seasons. In those 15 seasons, we have have finished 1st or 2nd in 12 seasons and 3rd in the the other 3 seasons.

In the same time frame, the cubs have 6 winning seasons and 9 losing seasons (they have been 30 games back in 3 of the last 5 seasons) and have finished 1st or 2nd in ONLY 2 seasons.

Why in the hell is this "Cubs town"? I don't get it

jackbrohamer
03-15-2005, 11:30 AM
It's not.

Clembasbal
03-15-2005, 11:55 AM
It's not.

Though the local media makes it a Cub's town, I believe in my heart (which is why I am probably wrong) that the national media makes it worse.

There are a ton of Sox fans, local...Chicago...northside...southside Sox fans. There are also a lot of Cubs fans, few local...most out of state...college students...gypsies that moved here for business and go there for games.

Iwritecode
03-15-2005, 12:00 PM
In the last 15 seasons, The White Sox have 11 winning seasons and only 4 losing seasons. In those 15 seasons, we have have finished 1st or 2nd in 12 seasons and 3rd in the the other 3 seasons.

In the same time frame, the cubs have 6 winning seasons and 9 losing seasons (they have been 30 games back in 3 of the last 5 seasons) and have finished 1st or 2nd in ONLY 2 seasons.

Why in the hell is this "Cubs town"? I don't get it

Cubs fans embrace losing. They think it's "lovable" and "cute".

Sox fans hate losing. Coming in second isn't a whole lot of fun either...

BigEdWalsh
03-15-2005, 12:03 PM
In the last 15 seasons, The White Sox have 11 winning seasons and only 4 losing seasons. In those 15 seasons, we have have finished 1st or 2nd in 12 seasons and 3rd in the the other 3 seasons.

In the same time frame, the cubs have 6 winning seasons and 9 losing seasons (they have been 30 games back in 3 of the last 5 seasons) and have finished 1st or 2nd in ONLY 2 seasons.

Why in the hell is this "Cubs town"? I don't get it

It's a long story.
Sadly, it is "a Cubs town". The Cubs are the media darlings. Plain and simple. Therefore, the average casual fan is going to flock toward the Cubbies. So what? Let 'em.

jdm2662
03-15-2005, 12:07 PM
The most popular team in Chicago is the Bears, despite what any Cubbie loving media outlet tells you. I would agree there are more Cub fans than Sox fans for various reasons, but the Bears are the most popular team in town, period. That's not to say things won't change. The Blackhawks once were the most popular team years ago, and now they are barely on the map.
________
Dispensaries (http://dispensaries.org/)

mccombe_35
03-15-2005, 12:14 PM
A lot of people give WGN the credit for the Cubs widespread poularity.

What bugs me is how the Cubs fans are considered so loyal by local & national press. The "fans filling the park through decades of losing" is usually thrown into the countless garbage articles that praise Cubs fans for their loyalty. I guess a lot of people have short memories. Filling Wrigley is a relatively recent thing. They make it seem like the Cubs averaged 35,000 per game for the last 50 years..... when in reality they were below the league average attendance as recent as 1997.

The Cubs were also below the league average in attendance every year from '72 - '83..... About the time that the "previous generation was filling the ballpark"......

Hangar18
03-15-2005, 12:30 PM
In the last 15 seasons, The White Sox have 11 winning seasons and only 4 losing seasons. In those 15 seasons, we have have finished 1st or 2nd in 12 seasons and 3rd in the the other 3 seasons.

In the same time frame, the cubs have 6 winning seasons and 9 losing seasons (they have been 30 games back in 3 of the last 5 seasons) and have finished 1st or 2nd in ONLY 2 seasons.

Why in the hell is this "Cubs town"? I don't get it

Compelling evidence. This should be forwarded to all the Major Media Outlets.

SoxSpeed22
03-15-2005, 12:44 PM
http://www.hrwiki.org/images/thumb/7/71/100px-Senor_Cartgage_Profile.PNG (http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php/Image:Senor_Cartgage_Profile.PNG)Oh, excardon me.
Isn't this the main reason Sox fans hate the Cubs? I mean they get the attention and the fans that we feel they don't deserve, as well as the media. I'm sure if we complained a lot, we would be getting attention about losing, but we're better than that aren't we?

Lip Man 1
03-15-2005, 01:06 PM
I'm confused by the Sox numbers. 11 winning seasons in the past 15 years? That would mean the calculations started from the 1990 season. Here are the winning years the Sox had since 1990:

1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004

Here are the losing seasons since 1990:

1995, 1997, 1998, 1999

Here are the .500 seasons since 1990:

2002

Not disagreeing with the overall point that the Sox have played better baseball then the Cubs but the numbers are just a little different. 10-4-1. Going .500 is not a 'winning' year.

To be fair one must also point out the fact the since 1998 (the first full year since the White Flag Trade) the Sox have averaged only 83 wins a season. It's a 'winning' season to be sure, but nothing to write home about and 83 wins will only under extremely rare circumstances (see 1973 Mets) get you into the post season.

Lip
Lip

C-Dawg
03-15-2005, 03:04 PM
What bugs me is how the Cubs fans are considered so loyal by local & national press. The "fans filling the park through decades of losing" is usually thrown into the countless garbage articles that praise Cubs fans for their loyalty. I guess a lot of people have short memories. Filling Wrigley is a relatively recent thing. They make it seem like the Cubs averaged 35,000 per game for the last 50 years..... when in reality they were below the league average attendance as recent as 1997.

The Cubs were also below the league average in attendance every year from '72 - '83.....




If my memory is correct, they would frequently keep the upper deck at Wrigley closed unless it looked like strong attendance would warrant opening it up. This was when I was a kid in the 70s. I remember Jack Brickhouse telling the audience to "Come on out to the game, there's plenty of room, looks like the upper deck will be open today..."

Lip Man 1
03-15-2005, 05:23 PM
As recently as 1983 the Cubs were closing the upper deck due to lack of fans. They mentioned this very point in the WLS-TV special 'Sox On The Move,' which aired in September 1983 just before the playoffs started. To be sure I watched my copy again and Tim Weigle does talk about it while showing video of a practically deserted Wrigley Field.

Lip

MIgrenade
03-15-2005, 06:42 PM
The Sox have closed down parts of the bleachers when attendence was bad, and I think parts of the upper deck too.

CubsfansareDRUNK
03-15-2005, 07:15 PM
One question. Say the sox win the world series and get the respect they deserve. Will cub fans exist?

SoxFan76
03-15-2005, 09:17 PM
One question. Say the sox win the world series and get the respect they deserve. Will cub fans exist?

Most of their fanbase are mindless drones who will believe whatever the TV tells them, therefore most Cub "fans" would become Sox fans.

Stroker Ace
03-15-2005, 09:38 PM
The reason why more people go to sCrUB games in that it is a "trendy" thing to do.

AnkleSox
03-15-2005, 09:43 PM
heh heh, i was bored at work and trying to find crossword puzzles and found this : http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/crossword/

go to the puzzle for sunday, march 13th, and check out 101 across. apparently not everyone thinks this is a cubs town :)

SOXPHILE
03-15-2005, 09:49 PM
Wrigley Field being sold out, if I recall correctly, pretty much started in 1984, when the Sox went in the dumper, and the Cubs went to the playoffs. It suddenly became the "in" place to be, because a team that had sucked for so long was actually winning. Because of this, over the next few years, the whole neighborhood went through a revival of sorts. New bars and clubs opened, property values went up, a younger crowd with more money to spend began moving into the area, etc. The result is what we have now- a trendy neighborhood, with lots of "hip" people either living there, or hanging out in the area whether or not there's a game that day, to go to all the different bars and restaurants. Wrigley Field is the centerpiece of the whole thing, and everyone flocks to and around it, even though most of those entering Wrigley don't know the difference between a sacrafice fly, and the infield fly rule. I remember being taken to games there when I was a kid, and the upper deck WAS closed, and the attendance being under 10,000 on more than one occassion, and this was right in the middle of summer, on sunny, 80+ degree days. Not on some cold gray April afternoon early in the season.

CubsfansareDRUNK
03-15-2005, 10:08 PM
So, regarding my original statement, i think a new breed of sox fan would be bred. I like to call them "mud bloods" or ex-cubs fans that just root for the sox because they won.

Nellie_Fox
03-16-2005, 12:07 AM
The White Sox outdrew the Cubs every year from 1951 to 1967, except for 1958 (when Ernie Banks got his first of two consecutive MVP's.) The Sox drew over a million every year except for '58, when a million attendance was a big deal. It was a Sox town then. The Cubs were not considered loveable, and Wrigley was not a "shrine."

The Sox then compounded the problem of the Cubs having pretty good teams in the late 60's by moving the TV to UHF channels (32 & 44) that most people couldn't watch because the signals were so bad, then followed that up by moving channel 44 to "over the air pay TV." So they lost an entire generation of kids who could watch the Cubs every day, but could never watch the Sox.

I guess the TV situation is now pretty equal (I don't live in Chicago any more, so I can't be sure) but it will take a couple of years of the Sox being clearly better than the Cubs just to close the gap.

BigEdWalsh
03-16-2005, 07:55 AM
So, regarding my original statement, i think a new breed of sox fan would be bred. I like to call them "mud bloods" or ex-cubs fans that just root for the sox because they won.

I'm hoping you don't think that's neccesarily a good thing. I agree that winning would bring new fans, some good, some not. I personally hate the fair weather fan who is there simply because it's trendy.
Same thing happened when the Bulls got good and the Stadium was filled with the "sweater people" (in the expensive seats, of course). Bulls tickets got hard to come by. A lot of good fans who had supported the Bulls for years, suddenly couldn't go; or could go but had to sit way up in the rafters if they lucky enough. Sorry for the ranting about the Bulls.:redface:

CubsfansareDRUNK
03-16-2005, 08:26 AM
I'm hoping you don't think that's neccesarily a good thing. I agree that winning would bring new fans, some good, some not. I personally hate the fair weather fan who is there simply because it's trendy.
Same thing happened when the Bulls got good and the Stadium was filled with the "sweater people" (in the expensive seats, of course). Bulls tickets got hard to come by. A lot of good fans who had supported the Bulls for years, suddenly couldn't go; or could go but had to sit way up in the rafters if they lucky enough. Sorry for the ranting about the Bulls.:redface:

of course its a bad thing. im just saying its bound to happen. Cub fans around here only go to the games where there are more hot babes. When the bulls won, our whole neighborhood went crazy, we were running around banging pots and pans beeping our horns everywhere, it was awsome. I think that cub fans wouldnt exist anymore becuase nobody would root for them, being the only team that hasnt won a world series in over 100 years.

BigEdWalsh
03-16-2005, 08:40 AM
of course its a bad thing. im just saying its bound to happen. Cub fans around here only go to the games where there are more hot babes. When the bulls won, our whole neighborhood went crazy, we were running around banging pots and pans beeping our horns everywhere, it was awsome. I think that cub fans wouldnt exist anymore becuase nobody would root for them, being the only team that hasnt won a world series in over 100 years.

That's cool, just wanted to be sure. :D:

jackbrohamer
03-16-2005, 09:03 AM
I don't understand why so many Sox fans, players and front office people are so quick to say this is a "Cubs town," whatever that means.

They draw better than the Sox now and get more PR, so what? The Yankees and Dodgers led the AL and NL in attendance that year, that means the United States is a Yankee/Dodger Nation?

SoxFan78
03-16-2005, 09:05 AM
One question. Say the sox win the world series and get the respect they deserve. Will cub fans exist?

The Chicago media will probably be at Wrigley Field when the Sox win it all and will be getting "Cub Fan's Response" to the Sox winning the WS. Just like they did when Boston won last year.

BigEdWalsh
03-16-2005, 09:08 AM
I don't understand why so many Sox fans, players and front office people are so quick to say this is a "Cubs town," whatever that means.

They draw better than the Sox now and get more PR, so what? The Yankees and Dodgers led the AL and NL in attendance that year, that means the United States is a Yankee/Dodger Nation?

All it means, I guess, is that in the eyes of the general public, city-wide AND nationwide more people are aware of the Cubs. Big deal, I agree. In my eyes, it's not a Cubs town, never was and never will be. To us as White Sox fans it doesn't mean s***. Unless, of course, you're bothered by it. I don't mean YOU, Broham, I just mean you generally speaking.

Clement's beard
03-16-2005, 10:34 AM
I'll jump in and throw in my .02. Indeed, after 1984 and being so close to the series, the Cubs slowly became the toast of the town. Harry was beyond huge and the fact he became the face of Cubs baseball, along with Sandberg and Mark Grace. The playoff teams of 89 and 98 were embraced by this city and the popularity of the Cubs continued to grow.

Throw in 2003 and the buzz that that team created and you have a very popular team.

You want the trend reversed? Then you are asking for the "casual fan", who really does not care if the team wins or not, to become a face in the crowd at Sox games. I'd rather have 25 thousand die-hards then 40 thousand fans and 10 thousand of them are just there to have a good time.

It's these idiots that give REAL Cubs fans a bad name.

Uncle_Patrick
03-16-2005, 11:25 AM
The Chicago media will probably be at Wrigley Field when the Sox win it all and will be getting "Cub Fan's Response" to the Sox winning the WS. Just like they did when Boston won last year.

In all seriousness, I believe that will truly be the case. I can see all the local TV stations immediately following a White Sox World Series victory story with a crappy fluff piece about Cub fans having to wait another year. They'll probably even get their own HBO documentary the way that Red Sox fans had one a couple years back.

I wholeheartedly believe that in the City and surrounding suburbs, the split between true, diehard White Sox and Cubs fans in pretty close to even. I'm talking about people who follow the teams, watch the games, know who plays on the team, etc.

The Cubs have a far greater contingent of "Its cool to be a Cubs fan" types. They like to go to Wrigley so they can say they've been there, even though they don't know what actually happened during the game. They call the Cubs "the Cubbies" (as a resident of the Northwest suburbs, I'm surrounded by many Cubs fans, and I've never heard any die-hard fans refer to the team as "The Cubbies") and think losing is cute. There are a great number of these idiots and it tips the scales in the Cubs favor. Unfortunately, if the Sox got the playoffs or (God willing) the World Series, these idiots will be the ones in the stands at US Cellular, with the tags still on their brand new Frank Thomas jerseys.

mccombe_35
03-16-2005, 11:56 AM
I'll jump in and throw in my .02. Indeed, after 1984 and being so close to the series, the Cubs slowly became the toast of the town. Harry was beyond huge and the fact he became the face of Cubs baseball, along with Sandberg and Mark Grace. The playoff teams of 89 and 98 were embraced by this city and the popularity of the Cubs continued to grow.

Throw in 2003 and the buzz that that team created and you have a very popular team.

You want the trend reversed? Then you are asking for the "casual fan", who really does not care if the team wins or not, to become a face in the crowd at Sox games. I'd rather have 25 thousand die-hards then 40 thousand fans and 10 thousand of them are just there to have a good time.

It's these idiots that give REAL Cubs fans a bad name.

I'm kind of torn on the attendance issue. More fans at the Cell would (hopefully) mean more money to spend on the team & of course its a different atmosphere when the place is packed. But i LOVE being able to wake up on a Saturday or Sunday, see that its a nice day & drive to the park & buy tickets for that days game! I've never had season tickets or partial season tix (no "Ozzie or Minnie" plan for me!) but I've gone to about 40 games over the past 2 years - Always buying tickets the day of the game at the park.

Lip Man 1
03-16-2005, 01:21 PM
To the person who started this thread...please read this. It will answer all:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=2752

Lip

Johnny Mostil
03-16-2005, 09:14 PM
Wrigley Field being sold out, if I recall correctly, pretty much started in 1984, when the Sox went in the dumper, and the Cubs went to the playoffs. It suddenly became the "in" place to be, because a team that had sucked for so long was actually winning.

Although the White Sox appear to have outdrawn the Cubs that year: 2,136,988 to 2,107,655. (I can't recall if that was a comparable year or whether the AL reported tickets sold then while the NL reported attendance in park.) Beyond that, the Lindberg piece already cited is the best analysis I've seen of this in a while.

Dan H
03-17-2005, 09:17 AM
Some of the Cubs popularity can't even be explained. The "Shrine" is ready to collapse, the Tribune Company scalps their own tickets, and the team itself is nothing but a bunch of chokers who very well can extend their World Series winless streak to 100 years. We Sox fans have been accused of many things, but I'm glad to say that we are not anxious to go to a death trap of a stadium and allow an ownership take us to the cleaners by greedily exploiting our loyalty.

Lip Man 1
03-17-2005, 09:45 AM
Dan:

Extremely well said.

Lip

spiffie
03-17-2005, 10:30 AM
As has been stated before, it's all about atmosphere. You have to truly love baseball to go to a Sox game, because there's no other point. But one can go and have a fun day in Wrigleyville without caring too much beyond "Go Cubs!". I love the Sox, I am a partial season ticket holder for the Sox, but even I can recognize that it is much more conducive for a non die-hard fan to enjoy themselves with the Cubs experience. The neighborhood has an energy around it when the Cubs are playing that you only get in the parking lots and inside The Cell itself for the Sox. Personally, I will always take the Sox experience over the Yuppie/Frat paradise that is Wrigley. But in a world where most people are casual/barely interested fans of baseball, the Cubs will have that advantage.

That said, if the Sox storm out of the gate, and make the playoffs, people will come, just like they did in the early 90's.

Fake Chet Lemon
03-17-2005, 10:03 PM
Cubs town. ENJOY being the underdog. I identify with underdogs. I'll never root for the Yankees, the Lakers, the Cubs in this town. The underdog has a different mentality, a different hunger. That's cool, it gives the team an edge the Cubs don't have. A team with an edge doesn't lose the NLCS up 3-1 going home with their #1 and #2 pitchers going for games 6 and 7. An edge is nice, but you still need talent. We have the talent this year.