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Fredsox
03-14-2005, 05:57 PM
So my wife and I are watching the Sox play the A's last Saturday at Phoenix Municipal Stadium. We were lucky enough to score some pretty good seats, 7th row behind home plate. The first 6 rows were filled with baseball executives and scouts, most of whom wanted to see the kid Rich Harden of the A's (he looks very good). Jerry Krause was there with his radar gun, Schueler was chatting with KW, Billy Beane was in the front row getting molested by the A's fans for his autograph and photos.

So this one scout named Bob is in the row in front of us, and he had some interesting comments to his companion. Bob was decked out in a Pawtucket Red Sox hat and a t-shirt celebrating that the curse was over and he proclaimed that he was wearing the shirt to bother a Yankee friend of his. He was sitting next to a younger guy who was decked out in A's gear, I got the impression that he was an employee of the A's or a relative. Bob made the following statements:

1. Referring to the White Sox makeover - "These guys when from a power team to a speed and defense team over night. You don't do that."

2. On stolen bases - "Stolen bases are useless unless they're in the 8th or 9th inning. Any other time they're a waste."

3. On Ozzie Guillen's managerial skills - "There was some measurement in the off-season about, y'know, managers making decisions. They used some metric, I dunno, but something. And Ozzie Guillen was rated the dumbest manager in baseball."

4. He also brought up the "AJ versus the Trainer" story (the entire stadium was booing AJ unmercifully - it was very cool when he hit a dinger in his last AB to shut them up).

I looked on the A's official web site and they have a Bob Johnson listed as a scout. In watching him through the game he appeared to be scouting the Sox, not the A's.

I did not challenge any of his statements, to be fair I was listening in on a private conversation. Besides, it was interesting to be a fly on the wall.

We talk a lot about the lack of respect we get from the media both national and local, is this opinion just some whack-job or do these remarks represent the majority of baseball's thinking?

likeawarlord
03-14-2005, 06:08 PM
sounds like a moneyball guy to me. probably an idiot, too, but a moneyball idiot.

veeter
03-14-2005, 06:09 PM
I'll say this, most scouts don't know much. Of all prospects scouted and signed, how many make it? Next to none. Ozzie dumbed his way to a second place finish. Just think if he's smart this year. An example of how most people: scouts, media or any so-called experts don't know what they're talking about. They all claim the Sox have no power. The Sox hit 242 homers without Frank and Mags for the second half. Carlos didn't hit 100 on his own. Other players hit them! I'll say the Sox hit 190 this year. Hardly a team with no power. In closing that guy was just another professional know nothing.

Fredsox
03-14-2005, 06:12 PM
He seemed like he was trying to impress the kid he was talking to. I just hope that his thinking is not representitive of people who really DO know what they're talking about.

Daver
03-14-2005, 06:16 PM
I would agree with some of his points.

Fredsox
03-14-2005, 06:21 PM
I don't care about the AJ thing, I don't care about "Ozzie's dumb", and the remark about stolen bases is nothing but a preference on how to play the game (though I disagree with it).

Is there something wrong with the way we re-made the team? As Sox fans we're all high-fiving because KW addressed every hole on the team. Some of the new additions carry some risk, but we accept that as the price we pay for the low payroll. I guess I want to know if we violated some basic principle of putting a team together.

Daver
03-14-2005, 06:28 PM
I don't care about the AJ thing, I don't care about "Ozzie's dumb", and the remark about stolen bases is nothing but a preference on how to play the game (though I disagree with it).

Is there something wrong with the way we re-made the team? As Sox fans we're all high-fiving because KW addressed every hole on the team. Some of the new additions carry some risk, but we accept that as the price we pay for the low payroll. I guess I want to know if we violated some basic principle of putting a team together.

If you are going to build a team based on pitching and defense, you address your defense up the middle first. You start with a good defensive catcher, that is good with the pitching staff, AJ is not that catcher. Then you get sound defenders at both SS and second, Uribe may be that, but I doubt it, and Iguchi has proven nothing at this level, Willie Harris is average at best. Add to that the fact that the Sox have a left fielder playing center, with an average at best left fielder next to him, makes for an interesting experiment in winning with defense and pitching.

samram
03-14-2005, 06:46 PM
Billy Beane was in the front row getting molested by the A's fans for his autograph and photos.



Did you get a chance to say hi to jeremyb1?:D:

johnny_mostil
03-14-2005, 06:48 PM
If you are going to build a team based on pitching and defense, you address your defense up the middle first. You start with a good defensive catcher, that is good with the pitching staff, AJ is not that catcher. Then you get sound defenders at both SS and second, Uribe may be that, but I doubt it, and Iguchi has proven nothing at this level, Willie Harris is average at best. Add to that the fact that the Sox have a left fielder playing center, with an average at best left fielder next to him, makes for an interesting experiment in winning with defense and pitching.

By your definitions, nobody in major league baseball is a competent fielder. For one thing, Uribe is a superior defensive shortstop by any measure.

veeter
03-14-2005, 06:53 PM
If you are going to build a team based on pitching and defense, you address your defense up the middle first. You start with a good defensive catcher, that is good with the pitching staff, AJ is not that catcher. Then you get sound defenders at both SS and second, Uribe may be that, but I doubt it, and Iguchi has proven nothing at this level, Willie Harris is average at best. Add to that the fact that the Sox have a left fielder playing center, with an average at best left fielder next to him, makes for an interesting experiment in winning with defense and pitching. Someone took their downers today. Wow. I respectfully disagree with everything you wrote.

DaleJRFan
03-14-2005, 06:54 PM
I suppose that moving all of your aces (minus Zito) to the NL and take on a rotation of unproven rookies is something you deffinately want to do overnight.

F--- em all. See ya in the post season.

UNDER THE RADAR

DaleJRFan
03-14-2005, 06:56 PM
I suppose that moving all of your aces (minus Zito) to the NL and take on a rotation of unproven rookies is something you deffinately want to do overnight.

F--- em all. See ya in the post season.

UNDER THE RADAR

Don't want too many edits... but... Let's trade Garcia, Contreras and El Duque and bring up Honel, Tracey and McCarthy so we can be just like the A's.

Fredsox
03-14-2005, 07:25 PM
Don't want too many edits... but... Let's trade Garcia, Contreras and El Duque and bring up Honel, Tracey and McCarthy so we can be just like the A's.

Tell you what, that kid Harden was impressive. There were about 4 radar guns on him in the first 2 innings. It seemed like every time he got a guy with 2 strikes he'd reach back and hit 98 or 99. Very good.

Contreras, on the other hand, look like he didn't know what he wanted to do out there. He started out with fastballs, lost confidence, went to breaking balls for a while, then he mixed them up a bit. Very inconsistent. And given the way Honel & Tracey pitched yesterday I'm not sure they're ready (they got shelled).

You're right, it's not about being like the A's or anyone else, it's about doing the best you can with the people and the money you have. I like the path we've chosen, I'm just curious as to whether we've made enough progress in Year One of the Great Makeover.

1917
03-14-2005, 07:25 PM
I can see how other people may think Ozzie is dumb....he doesn't make a whole lot of sense, he flys by the seat of his pants, he can be a hot head...but he has the respect of all his players and they respond to him, so as fans we know Ozzie ain't no dummy!

Fake Chet Lemon
03-14-2005, 07:32 PM
Considering Ozzie was a rookie manager coming over from the other league, he had a ton to learn. Regardless, I just didn't see all the glaring mistakes everyone speaks of. Manuel made more in a week than Ozzie made in a month. Oz had to learn all the organization's pitchers on the fly, he did a good job and will be even better this year.

CWSGuy406
03-14-2005, 07:40 PM
Don't want too many edits... but... Let's trade Garcia, Contreras and El Duque and bring up Honel, Tracey and McCarthy so we can be just like the A's.

Wow -- talk about uninformed... :rolleyes:

Meyer, Blanton, and Haren have all logged over 350 IP each in the minor leagues, and are much, much more ready for major league action than any of the above three you mentioned.

The comparison you mentioned is quite silly, actually, because there is no comparison.

Garcia is signed for multiple seasons. Beane knew that he wouldn't be able to resign Mulder/Hudson with harming the rest of the team (one guy making too much money), so he felt he'd get more in a trade than the supplemental draft picks he'd receive one year (or two) later. Whether the guys that Beane got in return pan out is still a question...

balke
03-14-2005, 07:42 PM
Considering Ozzie was a rookie manager coming over from the other league, he had a ton to learn. Regardless, I just didn't see all the glaring mistakes everyone speaks of. Manuel made more in a week than Ozzie made in a month. Oz had to learn all the organization's pitchers on the fly, he did a good job and will be even better this year.

Ozzie made the same mistakes Manuel did, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. He even made up a few of his own, like calling out players before the season begins, and ripping apart minor league pitcher call-ups.

Someone made the statement to me yesterday, "Manuel overthought things, tried to do too much. Ozzie is the exact opposite". I can't disagree. Other than the Cotts outing for Manuel against the Yankees, he probably handled the pitching staff better than Ozzie does.

This is a new season for Ozzie, and apparently he can manage now... because he has basestealers? :?:

No excuses this year. He has some players to work with, and some managing to do. I don't care how much/little experience he has, I think he needs to do a better job this season, and get this team some wins.

Daver
03-14-2005, 07:53 PM
By your definitions, nobody in major league baseball is a competent fielder. For one thing, Uribe is a superior defensive shortstop by any measure.

Yeah, I see a lot of comparisons to his play and that of Alex Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada, and Derek Jeter.

owensmouth
03-14-2005, 08:13 PM
I don't worry about what some others are saying about the makeover. We still have plenty of power, especially considering the home park.

Uribe is an adequate shortstop. He isn't as quick as Aparicio or Ozzie or Valentin, but he's got a strong accurate arm. While he may not reach quite as many grounders, he'll commit fewer errors. Defensively, he's an upgrade. I think he may hit 30 home runs, though I doubt he'll have as high an average as he had last year. I expect he'll level out around .265. Spectacular? No,but adequate.

One place that we need to improve is in turning the double play. Whether from shortstop or from third base, Willie just doesn't do well making the transition, that is, catching the ball/stepping on second/throwing to first in time to get the batter. So far this year he's shown no improvment. Hopefully Iguchi can handle this at a major league level.

In the game with the Athletics Harden looked good because he was consistently getting people out quickly. He got ahead in the count and then got them out. Contreras would throw too many pitches, eventually giving in to the batter. He's just not a major league pitcher.

Fredsox
03-14-2005, 08:18 PM
Contreras would throw too many pitches, eventually giving in to the batter. He's just not a major league pitcher.

So is it time to merge this thread with the "Bring up B-Mac Now" thread?

chisox06
03-14-2005, 08:24 PM
Yeah, I see a lot of comparisons to his play and that of Alex Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada, and Derek Jeter.

So your comparing Uribe to the 3 best shortstops in the league? Thats hardly fair nore realistic when talking about Uribe's talents. I drive a Jaguar but wish I had a Ferrari.

Daver
03-14-2005, 08:35 PM
So your comparing Uribe to the 3 best shortstops in the league? Thats hardly fair nore realistic when talking about Uribe's talents. I drive a Jaguar but wish I had a Ferrari.

Take it up with johnny mostil, you made the statement that he was a superior defensive SS, don't take my statement out of context.

DaleJRFan
03-14-2005, 08:41 PM
Wow -- talk about uninformed... :rolleyes:

Meyer, Blanton, and Haren have all logged over 350 IP each in the minor leagues, and are much, much more ready for major league action than any of the above three you mentioned.

The comparison you mentioned is quite silly, actually, because there is no comparison.

Garcia is signed for multiple seasons. Beane knew that he wouldn't be able to resign Mulder/Hudson with harming the rest of the team (one guy making too much money), so he felt he'd get more in a trade than the supplemental draft picks he'd receive one year (or two) later. Whether the guys that Beane got in return pan out is still a question...

You obviously didn't get my point. Who cares what the A's scouts think? I don't.

MRKARNO
03-14-2005, 09:49 PM
The comment about Ozzie was not in reference to his managing skills but to the way he played baseball during his career. The 2004 Baseball Prospectus featured an essay on whether players with a low baseball IQ (according to some metric they devised) made good or bad managers. The report was relatively inconclusive.

Ol' No. 2
03-14-2005, 09:52 PM
The comment about Ozzie was not in reference to his managing skills but to the way he played baseball during his career. The 2004 Baseball Prospectus featured an essay on whether players with a low baseball IQ (according to some metric they devised) made good or bad managers. The report was relatively inconclusive."according to some metric they devised" is the key phrase. Any nitwit can make up a bunch of numbers, and put them in a spreadsheet. It doesn't mean you actually determined anything.

Daver
03-14-2005, 09:59 PM
The comment about Ozzie was not in reference to his managing skills but to the way he played baseball during his career. The 2004 Baseball Prospectus featured an essay on whether players with a low baseball IQ (according to some metric they devised) made good or bad managers. The report was relatively inconclusive.

It doesn't take numbers to show that Ozzie is not a smart manager, all it takes is watching the games.

MRKARNO
03-14-2005, 10:01 PM
"according to some metric they devised" is the key phrase. Any nitwit can make up a bunch of numbers, and put them in a spreadsheet. It doesn't mean you actually determined anything.
Their calculation was made based on percentiles of fielding percentage, stolen base percentage, K/BB ratio and walk rate. The FP was good, the SB% average, the K/BB bad and the walk rate putrid.

But the "dumbest" manager on the list was Cito Gaston and I dont think anyone was complaining about his 2 World Series titles, but the "smartest" player, Dick Howser, won a WS with the Royals in '85 too. The point of the article was to see if people who did not fare well as a player in those four categories made good managers and they found that dumb players outperformed smart players as managers by an average of 2.1 wins.

Ol' No. 2
03-14-2005, 10:08 PM
Their calculation was made based on percentiles of fielding percentage, stolen base percentage, K/BB ratio and walk rate. The FP was good, the SB% average, the K/BB bad and the walk rate putrid.

But the "dumbest" manager on the list was Cito Gaston and I dont think anyone was complaining about his 2 World Series titles, but the "smartest" player, Dick Howser, won a WS with the Royals in '85 too. The point of the article was to see if people who did not fare well as a player in those four categories made good managers and they found that dumb players outperformed smart players as managers by an average of 2.1 wins.How does FP and SB% correlate with "smarts"? Carlos Lee had a 1.000 FP last year. Does that make him a smart player? PK had a 100% SB% last year. Another smart player? Even K/BB and walk rate have more to do with innate skills than smarts. Any fool can make up some formula. Unless you've proved in some way that it actually measures what you claim to be measuring, it's just a lot of BS. Unfortunately, that describes a lot of statheads.

Brian26
03-14-2005, 10:18 PM
Considering Ozzie was a rookie manager coming over from the other league, he had a ton to learn.

Coming from the other league? He played 13 years with the Sox in the American League, and then another year with the Devil Rays. Ozzie should know AL strategy (or lack thereof) inside and out.

scottyl
03-14-2005, 10:21 PM
Am I the only one thinking that the person you were sitting behind WASN'T a scout?

Those statements sound like something you would spew out if you trying to impress someone -- I don't see much insight or scouting in there.

Brian26
03-14-2005, 10:44 PM
It doesn't take numbers to show that Ozzie is not a smart manager, all it takes is watching the games.

I'm still not 100% sure if he knows which way is right and which way is left.

Brian26
03-14-2005, 10:48 PM
On stolen bases - "Stolen bases are useless unless they're in the 8th or 9th inning. Any other time they're a waste."

I'm not a huge Moneyball fan either, but this is one of the ideologies that I agree with. The cost/benefit of a stolen base in the early innings is just too risky to justify. Now, what Dave Roberts did last year for the Red Sox in Game 4...that was amazing.

chisoxmike
03-14-2005, 10:49 PM
I don't care about the AJ thing, I don't care about "Ozzie's dumb", and the remark about stolen bases is nothing but a preference on how to play the game (though I disagree with it).

Is there something wrong with the way we re-made the team? As Sox fans we're all high-fiving because KW addressed every hole on the team. Some of the new additions carry some risk, but we accept that as the price we pay for the low payroll. I guess I want to know if we violated some basic principle of putting a team together.

KW did address the holes, but with question marks. And if Sox fans don't realize this, you could be in for a long season.

About Ozzie, I'm sure all 29 other managers have more baseball smarts than Ozzie, but I think Ozzie is the best fit for the Sox. If he could bring them to a second place finish without Maggs and Frank, I think he could get the job done leading them to a first place finish.

I mean, this team was in first place on July 24. And, only 4 back on August 16. The pitching is the key on this team, home runs, stolen bases, triples and doubles will all come. But the pitching needs to be healthy.

champagne030
03-14-2005, 10:54 PM
Am I the only one thinking that the person you were sitting behind WASN'T a scout?

Those statements sound like something you would spew out if you trying to impress someone -- I don't see much insight or scouting in there."

or maybe just talking 'bout baseball like anybody would with a guest....i sat next to a sox scout on a plane this past september and we talked about many different players, including the sox....the last five minutes of the conversation was quite interesting....it started with "how do you feel about them blowing up the current plan" and going in another direction? he said lee would bring back the most value to the team (vs. pk).

i think beane is WAY too smug, but i don't disagree with his move. the teams that could take mulder or hudson in a trade at the deadline do not have the prospects to make it equitable....it has no become a buyer's market at the trade deadline, imo.

Daver
03-14-2005, 10:58 PM
.
But the pitching needs to be healthy.

We can now address the pitching side of winning with speed,defense, and pitching. The Sox have two top of the rotation starters, and three question marks in their rotation. I will give some credit to the bullpen though, it should be solid.

Brian26
03-14-2005, 11:04 PM
I will give some credit to the bullpen though, it should be solid.

Which could (hopefully) be huge. Think of the 1990 White Sox. Their starting pitching was mediocre at best, but that bullpen was sensational. Thiggy, Rad, The Vulcher, Wayne Edwards, The Pope.

Fredsox
03-14-2005, 11:07 PM
Am I the only one thinking that the person you were sitting behind WASN'T a scout?

Those statements sound like something you would spew out if you trying to impress someone -- I don't see much insight or scouting in there.

Fair question, I'll answer as best as I can. The man was sitting among people who where keeping score, aiming radar guns at pitchers, and timing base runners going down the line. He was not timing or using a stop watch, but he was keeping score. All the people he was sitting with were talking among themselves in kind of a good-old-boys way, they all knew each other. This includes, as I said before. Krause, Schueler, Beane, Williams, and others that I did not recognize. Also, they all had tags around their necks, some of which I could see, which were labeled "scout" and their name & club. He had a tag but I did not see the front. I saw him sorting through tickets for upcoming games but they did not look like the same ticket I got (different color).

Does that help?

hose
03-15-2005, 12:06 AM
1. Referring to the White Sox makeover - "These guys when from a power team to a speed and defense team over night. You don't do that."

2. On stolen bases - "Stolen bases are useless unless they're in the 8th or 9th inning. Any other time they're a waste."

We talk a lot about the lack of respect we get from the media both national and local, is this opinion just some whack-job or do these remarks represent the majority of baseball's thinking?


1- Pauly and Hurt could put up 40 hr each and Dye, Rowand, Uribe hitting 20+ isn't a reach. Crede probably will hit over 15 and is capable of 20-30. I don't understand people thinking the Sox don't have power.

2- I disagree with the comment about only stealing bases in the 8th and 9th inning. As long as your teams success rate is above 70 or so % I think the stolen base is a valuable weapon that should be deployed.

Remember when Kenny Lofton would terrorize the Sox with his base running antics? It changes the game that no box result will ever show in the morning
paper.

TheBull19
03-15-2005, 01:02 AM
1- Pauly and Hurt could put up 40 hr each and Dye, Rowand, Uribe hitting 20+ isn't a reach. Crede probably will hit over 15 and is capable of 20-30. I don't understand people thinking the Sox don't have power.


:everett:
"What about me? Crazy Carl plans on hitting crazy dingers."
:weewillie
"But you'll be sitting on the bench like me, Dyno."
:everett:
"Yeah, right."

balke
03-15-2005, 01:18 AM
About Ozzie, I'm sure all 29 other managers have more baseball smarts than Ozzie, but I think Ozzie is the best fit for the Sox. If he could bring them to a second place finish without Maggs and Frank, I think he could get the job done leading them to a first place finish.

I mean, this team was in first place on July 24. And, only 4 back on August 16. The pitching is the key on this team, home runs, stolen bases, triples and doubles will all come. But the pitching needs to be healthy.

I'll give Ozzie something, even though I think he's a moron and a horrible manager. Players seem to like playing for him, for now. I don't know if that is going to last with how he calls people out and dogs them in the media constantly... but still. I can only imagine how boring it must be to have an uptight manager only focused on winning who can't keep things loose in the clubhouse. I kinda got that impression with Manuel.

I also like how some players responded to Ozzie (Timo Perez) and his philosophy last season. If he doesn't pick a lineup, and learn how to manage the pitching staff, he can take his SB's, one-liners, and "latino connection" out of Chicago next season.

fquaye149
03-15-2005, 02:33 AM
Yeah, I see a lot of comparisons to his play and that of Alex Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada, and Derek Jeter.

To be fair, Daver, it's possible to be a superior fielder without being one of the elite. Is Uribe that? I don't know. I am fairly sure, though, that he will get to most balls and make a competitively minimal amount of errors.

The fact is, up the middle, we have not regressed, and the talent to improve up the middle signed elsewhere (though whether alex cora or eckstein are defensive upgrades over uribe is very debatable).

Basically this scout's analysis precludes the misconception that we are "built on speed and defense." Rather, KW's offseason strategy realistically emphasizes PITCHING, not speed or defense, although we did trade a certain amount of power for speed. The real shift was from slugging to pitching. What scout in his right mind would say that wasn't the right move (for us at least)?

ChiSoxBobette
03-15-2005, 07:28 AM
So my wife and I are watching the Sox play the A's last Saturday at Phoenix Municipal Stadium. We were lucky enough to score some pretty good seats, 7th row behind home plate. The first 6 rows were filled with baseball executives and scouts, most of whom wanted to see the kid Rich Harden of the A's (he looks very good). Jerry Krause was there with his radar gun, Schueler was chatting with KW, Billy Beane was in the front row getting molested by the A's fans for his autograph and photos.

So this one scout named Bob is in the row in front of us, and he had some interesting comments to his companion. Bob was decked out in a Pawtucket Red Sox hat and a t-shirt celebrating that the curse was over and he proclaimed that he was wearing the shirt to bother a Yankee friend of his. He was sitting next to a younger guy who was decked out in A's gear, I got the impression that he was an employee of the A's or a relative. Bob made the following statements:

1. Referring to the White Sox makeover - "These guys when from a power team to a speed and defense team over night. You don't do that."

2. On stolen bases - "Stolen bases are useless unless they're in the 8th or 9th inning. Any other time they're a waste."

3. On Ozzie Guillen's managerial skills - "There was some measurement in the off-season about, y'know, managers making decisions. They used some metric, I dunno, but something. And Ozzie Guillen was rated the dumbest manager in baseball."

4. He also brought up the "AJ versus the Trainer" story (the entire stadium was booing AJ unmercifully - it was very cool when he hit a dinger in his last AB to shut them up).

I looked on the A's official web site and they have a Bob Johnson listed as a scout. In watching him through the game he appeared to be scouting the Sox, not the A's.

I did not challenge any of his statements, to be fair I was listening in on a private conversation. Besides, it was interesting to be a fly on the wall.

We talk a lot about the lack of respect we get from the media both national and local, is this opinion just some whack-job or do these remarks represent the majority of baseball's thinking?

Yeah and this guy is such an expert what have the a's done - nothing! Whoever this moron was from his comments its all but sure he's an idiot. I really don't understand his thinking about stolen bases only being worth anything unless its in the 8th or 9th inning having a team that can at any time steal a base and put pressure on the opposing team throughout the game because of that causes that team to make mistakes Also his comment about going from a power team to a speed & defense team , why would'nt we go to that especially after how many years as a power team and with our pitching be improved the way it has. The guy does'nt know squat!

wdelaney72
03-15-2005, 08:53 AM
Fair question, I'll answer as best as I can. The man was sitting among people who where keeping score, aiming radar guns at pitchers, and timing base runners going down the line. He was not timing or using a stop watch, but he was keeping score. All the people he was sitting with were talking among themselves in kind of a good-old-boys way, they all knew each other. This includes, as I said before. Krause, Schueler, Beane, Williams, and others that I did not recognize. Also, they all had tags around their necks, some of which I could see, which were labeled "scout" and their name & club. He had a tag but I did not see the front. I saw him sorting through tickets for upcoming games but they did not look like the same ticket I got (different color).

Does that help?

Are you sure it wasn't?
:boston
His comments were about is accurate as something he would say.

While I agree Ozzie was not very good last year, it's too soon to say he won't get better. I don't care if he has a lower IQ than a doorknob, if he can get the best out of his players and not destroy the pitching staff, he'll have done his job.

It's still up to the players on the field. Ozzie can't make Contreras and Marte throw the ball over the plate.

mccombe_35
03-15-2005, 08:58 AM
Wow. lots of negative posts about the Sox & Guillen in this thread. I'm surprised.....

I for one am very optimistic about the '05 season, even if an A's scout doesn't like the makeup of the team.

Compared to last year -
Did the starting pitching & bullpen improve? Yes. Did defense improve? Yes. More speed? Yes.

As for this "loss of power" garbage. No more Carlos & Magglio. They combined for 40 of the Sox ML leading 242 HRs. Guys not named Carlos or Magglio hit 202 of those HRs last year (202 HRs would have been 4th in the AL in '04)! I am pretty sure Dye & Podsednik will hit some HRs this year, so I expect the Sox to be well over 200 HRs again in '05....

just my opinion.........

34 Inch Stick
03-15-2005, 09:03 AM
To be fair, Daver, it's possible to be a superior fielder without being one of the elite. Is Uribe that? I don't know. I am fairly sure, though, that he will get to most balls and make a competitively minimal amount of errors.

The fact is, up the middle, we have not regressed, and the talent to improve up the middle signed elsewhere (though whether alex cora or eckstein are defensive upgrades over uribe is very debatable).

Basically this scout's analysis precludes the misconception that we are "built on speed and defense." Rather, KW's offseason strategy realistically emphasizes PITCHING, not speed or defense, although we did trade a certain amount of power for speed. The real shift was from slugging to pitching. What scout in his right mind would say that wasn't the right move (for us at least)?

I am with you on your assessment of Uribe. Uribe will probably not be a superior shortstop in the all around game. However, he is in the upper third as a defensive shortstop. In fact, John Dewan of Stats, Inc. had him in the top 3 defensively last year (it may have even been #1).

However, Dave's point is valid. We went from an outstanding power team to a little bit above average defensive team. I don't consider that an upgrade.

The truth is we did not revamp from power to speed and defense, we revamped to speed and pitching. Furthermore, while the overall average of our pitchers dramatically increased we still have very few pitchers that will be automatic.

mccombe_35
03-15-2005, 09:12 AM
The truth is we did not revamp from power to speed and defense, we revamped to speed and pitching. Furthermore, while the overall average of our pitchers dramatically increased we still have very few pitchers that will be automatic.

Dye is a former gold glover. Uribe is a defensive (& offensive) upgrade at SS. Gooch won some GGs in Japan.

Not sure if Podsednik is a big improvement over Lee in LF. I'll have to see for my self. Pretty sure Pods will cover more ground & i hope he doesn't play with his heels on the warning track.

same guys at 3B, 1B, & CF.

I have heard that AJ isn't a good defensive catcher, but I'm willing to accept that considering what he does at the plate (& what Burke & Davis do at the plate...)

JKryl
03-15-2005, 09:29 AM
I can see how other people may think Ozzie is dumb....he doesn't make a whole lot of sense, he flys by the seat of his pants, he can be a hot head...but he has the respect of all his players and they respond to him, so as fans we know Ozzie ain't no dummy!

I can agree that Ozzie's no dummy, but it sure seems like it's getting harder to understand him every year. Maybe he's talking faster because he's getting more excited, but look out if we ever get to the World Series! :rolleyes:

Ol' No. 2
03-15-2005, 10:33 AM
Someone please tell my why Ozzie's a dummy. Because he has a thick accent and is difficult to understand? Because he acts kind of goofy some times? What? From what I've seen so far, I don't see any lack of baseball smarts.

jabrch
03-15-2005, 11:04 AM
The anti-SB thing is a joke. Someone sat down with a calculator and said that unless you steal over 75% successfully, the net result is an increase in expected runs scored. The problem is the methodology used to make those calculations is completely flawed. It fails to take into account the effect of speed on a pitcher, a defense, an opposing manager, etc. Running the bases aggressively, including stealing, makes a 2B and a SS play more up the middle. It makes a pitcher go faster to the plate, from the slide step. It makes him throw more fastballs. It makes him waste pitches pitching out. All of this is not in the stupid-a$$ formulae that idiots used to determine that SBs are bad. Let them think that way. I think it is funny that with all the talent the As had, they could never manage to do any better than they did in the playoffs. (oh yeah - that's when "luck" comes into play - when they can no longer explain their failures by statistics, then they blame luck. "Clutch" doesn't exist - but luck does? MY ASS)

JRIG
03-15-2005, 11:11 AM
Yeah and this guy is such an expert what have the a's done - nothing!

You're right. Making the playoffs consistently and giving yourself a chance to win the World Series is soooo overrated.

Wanne
03-15-2005, 11:55 AM
Jerry Krause was there with his radar gun...


Jerry Krause "blending" in with the crowd!.... :D:

I liken this to Rocky carrying buckets of spit at Mickey's gym in Rocky II.

Anyway...doesn't sound like this guy had much insight.

balke
03-15-2005, 12:04 PM
Someone please tell my why Ozzie's a dummy. Because he has a thick accent and is difficult to understand? Because he acts kind of goofy some times? What? From what I've seen so far, I don't see any lack of baseball smarts.

The not knowing left from right thing was cute and all, but might be true at times. "Podsednik will be in center this season for sure." then a week later "Rowand's the man in center, he did a great job last season." then a week later the job is Pod's again.

There's lots of little things I get upset with. One was going to a 4-man rotation so early last season. I would've rather seen it before Maggs went down to injury for a while, or just done the 5th starter by committee more, until the end of the season came. The 4-man made all the pitchers uncomfortable it seemed, and still wore down the bullpen.

He can never decide a lineup, and says he's going to go with his gut every game. I think we were a bout 30 games away from seeing Borchard at the lead-off spot.

He also shouldered blame of not being able to manage a winner because everyone hit hr's last season. I count that as a dumb. He just does and says a lot of dumb things. It's not always his accent, it is that he says things without thinking, or things that just don't make sense, or things that can be taken out of context very easily.

One thing is for sure, if Ozzie-ball works he'll look like a genius, and I'll have to get a 13 tattoo cause we won the series.

tadscout
03-15-2005, 01:11 PM
Someone please tell my why Ozzie's a dummy. Because he has a thick accent and is difficult to understand? Because he acts kind of goofy some times? What? From what I've seen so far, I don't see any lack of baseball smarts.

Agreed :cheers:

MIgrenade
03-15-2005, 01:16 PM
I would like the Marlins' opinion about stolen bases being a waste.

Brian26
03-15-2005, 01:23 PM
You're right. Making the playoffs consistently and giving yourself a chance to win the World Series is soooo overrated.

Five-straight 90-win seasons (or something close to that) looks pretty damn good to me compared to what the Sox have done.

Man Soo Lee
03-15-2005, 01:30 PM
The 4-man made all the pitchers uncomfortable it seemed, and still wore down the bullpen.

This didn't happen. Garland and Buehrle pitched on short rest in Boston on August 14th and 15th, but that was the extent of the "4-man rotation".

flo-B-flo
03-15-2005, 03:07 PM
The anti-SB thing is a joke. Someone sat down with a calculator and said that unless you steal over 75% successfully, the net result is an increase in expected runs scored. The problem is the methodology used to make those calculations is completely flawed. It fails to take into account the effect of speed on a pitcher, a defense, an opposing manager, etc. Running the bases aggressively, including stealing, makes a 2B and a SS play more up the middle. It makes a pitcher go faster to the plate, from the slide step. It makes him throw more fastballs. It makes him waste pitches pitching out. All of this is not in the stupid-a$$ formulae that idiots used to determine that SBs are bad. Let them think that way. I think it is funny that with all the talent the As had, they could never manage to do any better than they did in the playoffs. (oh yeah - that's when "luck" comes into play - when they can no longer explain their failures by statistics, then they blame luck. "Clutch" doesn't exist - but luck does? MY ASS) Also sending runners with contact hitters up opens holes in the infield that can be exploited for hits and puts pressure on infielders to make the correct play often in big moments during games. Getting a stolen base with less then 2 outs changes the flow of the game so many ways. Konerko just might not hit into so many DP's this year as first base will be open at times during his AB. Ozzie was a pretty smart player in his own right. Managing sometimes is the art of getting out of the way and letting your guys play to their potential.

Jerome
03-15-2005, 03:17 PM
Don't want too many edits... but... Let's trade Garcia, Contreras and El Duque and bring up Honel, Tracey and McCarthy so we can be just like the A's.

Well if we were going to be forced to tie up a significant part of our meager payroll in those pitchers, (by the way Mulder had a 6 ERA after the AS Break last year and Tim Hudson was injured for 6 weeks and they still won 91 games, more than the Sox in a tougher division), it might be a good idea to trade those guys if we have an excellent collection of young, CHEAP arms waiting in the minors.

Money was the main factor in the Mulder and Hudson trades.

Stroker Ace
03-15-2005, 03:20 PM
Moneyball alert!

irish rover
03-15-2005, 04:31 PM
Stoney just made a good point, that small ball isn't just stolen bases but also going from 1st to 3rd, thus speed is more than stolen bags

CWSGuy406
03-15-2005, 04:33 PM
Moneyball alert!

No.

But when someone says something stupid like, "What have the A's done? Nothing", it deserves to be called out.

pczarapa
03-15-2005, 09:44 PM
I would agree with some of his points.

Unfortunately me too, except for the value of stolen bases only being relevant in the last two innings. That's just moronic thinking.

fquaye149
03-16-2005, 04:02 AM
No.

But when someone says something stupid like, "What have the A's done? Nothing", it deserves to be called out.

i think he really meant this offseason. of course, i'm only guessing.

chez742002
03-16-2005, 06:48 AM
Since when is Miguel Tejada a great fielder! He is....NOT! When Uribe was a SHORTSTOP for Colorado, How many errors did he commit? Not many! Incase you did not know, Uribe was considered the best young shortstop prospect in the Minor Leagues in 2000. Tejada and Uribe are almost the exact type of fielder and their numbers match up that way! Obviously he is not offensively the player Tejada is, but he does a good job. Jeter is a great fielder and player with tremendous range but he also has made errors in the twenty range and in his first few years with the Yankees, his fielding percentage was comparable with Uribe, who is in his first 4 years. A-Rod maybe the greatest shortstop ever so why even compare him, but otherwise it looks like Uribe is very adequate.
"Uribe has one of the best arms in baseball", Peter Gammons said " and his range is impeccable." "He was out of position at second base, just ask Paul Konerko." "He almost broke Konerko's hand with his throws to him from second base!"
Tadahito Iguchi has one several gold gloves in Japan and I think that is important because Ichiro was a gold glover and he is not too bad at fielding, IS HE?
Rowand is not a corner outfielder and to say that, it means you do not know much about baseball. He was in the ruinning for a gold glove last year and he was ranked by the Baseball Prospectus as the #2 Outfielder in the Central Division behind Tori Hunter, who is pretty good I think, maybe not according to you. But you are right AJ is not a great defensive catcher, but that is not what we wanted him for. I do think he is adequate though! Overall I have proven your statement to be pretty uninformed so please do not blab opinions that start arguments that could turn ugly. We are all Sox fans, we love the Sox and hope they do great and play hard. That is what we want. I believe that KW did a great job this year in trying to make us a winner and I hope for the best. I am excited about this team more than I have been since 1994. I just think people need to study up before they make comments like that because us Sox fans, DO NOT WANT PEOPLE TO THINK OF US AS STUPID, UNINTERESTED, UNINFORMED FLUBBY FANS!!! and I hope you do not take this badly, but you made me angry because I love the Sox and I care for them more than any other Chicago team and I am sick of all the stupid sportswriters in this city that post uninformed and under researched columns about who and what the 2005 Central Division Champs White Sox are!!
Just remember being uninformed causes prejudgement which causes prejudice which causes Racism!!
Miguel Tejadas Defensive Numbers @ Shortstop
Year Ag Tm Lg Pos G PO A E DP FP
1998 22 OAK (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/1998.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1998.shtml) SS 104 173 327 26 75 .951
1999 23 OAK (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/1999.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1999.shtml) SS 159 292 471 21 110 .973
2000 24 OAK (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2000.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2000.shtml) SS 160 233 501 21 115 .972 .
2001 25 OAK (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2001.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2001.shtml) SS 162 257 472 20 93 .973 2002 SS 162 230 504 19 106 .975
2003 27 OAK (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2003.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2003.shtml) SS 162 240 490 21 95 .972
2004 28 BAL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/2004.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2004.shtml) SS 162 264 526 24 118 .971


Derek Jeter's Defensive Numbers @ Shortstop
Year Ag Tm Lg Pos G PO A E DP FP
1996 22 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1996.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1996.shtml) SS 157 244 444 22 83 .969
1997 23 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1997.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1997.shtml) SS 159 244 457 18 87 .975
1998 24 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1998.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1998.shtml) SS 148 223 393 9 82 .986
1999 25 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1999.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1999.shtml) SS 158 230 391 14 87 .978
2000 26 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2000.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2000.shtml) SS 148 236 349 24 77 .961
2001 27 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2001.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2001.shtml) SS 150 211 344 15 68 .974
2002 28 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2002.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2002.shtml) SS 156 219 367 14 69 .977
2003 29 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2003.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2003.shtml) SS 118 160 271 14 51 .969
2004 30 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2004.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2004.shtml) SS 154 273 392 13 96 .981

Alex Rodriguez's Defensive Numbers @ Shortstop
Year Ag Tm Lg Pos G PO A E DP FP
1995 19 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1995.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1995.shtml) SS 46 56 106 8 14 .953
1996 20 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1996.shtml) SS 146 238 404 15 92 .977
1997 21 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1997.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1997.shtml) SS 140 209 394 24 83 .962
1998 22 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1998.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1998.shtml) SS 160 268 445 18 90 .975
1999 23 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1999.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1999.shtml) SS 129 213 382 14 104 .977
2000 24 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/2000.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2000.shtml) SS 148 242 438 10 122 .986
2001 25 TEX (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TEX/2001.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2001.shtml) SS 161 280 451 18 117 .989
2002 26 TEX (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TEX/2002.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2002.shtml) SS 162 259 472 10 108 .987 2003 27 TEX (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TEX/2003.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2003.shtml) SS 158 227 464 8 111 .989
2004 Played with NY @ Third Base

Juan Uribes Defensive Stats @ Shortstop
Year Ag Tm Lg Pos G PO A E DP FP
2001 21 COL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/2001.shtml)NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2001.shtml) SS 69 108 185 5 45 .983
2002 22 COL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/2002.shtml)NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2002.shtml) SS 155 261 505 27 119 .966
2003 23 COL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/2003.shtml)NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2003.shtml) SS 74 143 242 11 57 .972
2B 11 25 40 1 10 .985
CF 1 3 0 0 0 1.000
2004 24 CHW (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2004.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2004.shtml) 2B 77 154 208 6 49 .984
SS 38 54 115 3 31 .983
3B 27 14 41 2 5 .965

rmusacch
03-16-2005, 08:47 AM
Considering Ozzie was a rookie manager coming over from the other league, he had a ton to learn. Regardless, I just didn't see all the glaring mistakes everyone speaks of. Manuel made more in a week than Ozzie made in a month. Oz had to learn all the organization's pitchers on the fly, he did a good job and will be even better this year.

I don't know if it is such a good idea to compare Guillen to Manuel. Anyone can make better decisions than Manuel.

The Wimperoo
03-16-2005, 09:00 AM
Since when is Miguel Tejada a great fielder! He is....NOT! When Uribe was a SHORTSTOP for Colorado, How many errors did he commit? Not many! Incase you did not know, Uribe was considered the best young shortstop prospect in the Minor Leagues in 2000. Tejada and Uribe are almost the exact type of fielder and their numbers match up that way! Obviously he is not offensively the player Tejada is, but he does a good job. Jeter is a great fielder and player with tremendous range but he also has made errors in the twenty range and in his first few years with the Yankees, his fielding percentage was comparable with Uribe, who is in his first 4 years. A-Rod maybe the greatest shortstop ever so why even compare him, but otherwise it looks like Uribe is very adequate.
"Uribe has one of the best arms in baseball", Peter Gammons said " and his range is impeccable." "He was out of position at second base, just ask Paul Konerko." "He almost broke Konerko's hand with his throws to him from second base!"
Tadahito Iguchi has one several gold gloves in Japan and I think that is important because Ichiro was a gold glover and he is not too bad at fielding, IS HE?
Rowand is not a corner outfielder and to say that, it means you do not know much about baseball. He was in the ruinning for a gold glove last year and he was ranked by the Baseball Prospectus as the #2 Outfielder in the Central Division behind Tori Hunter, who is pretty good I think, maybe not according to you. But you are right AJ is not a great defensive catcher, but that is not what we wanted him for. I do think he is adequate though! Overall I have proven your statement to be pretty uninformed so please do not blab opinions that start arguments that could turn ugly. We are all Sox fans, we love the Sox and hope they do great and play hard. That is what we want. I believe that KW did a great job this year in trying to make us a winner and I hope for the best. I am excited about this team more than I have been since 1994. I just think people need to study up before they make comments like that because us Sox fans, DO NOT WANT PEOPLE TO THINK OF US AS STUPID, UNINTERESTED, UNINFORMED FLUBBY FANS!!! and I hope you do not take this badly, but you made me angry because I love the Sox and I care for them more than any other Chicago team and I am sick of all the stupid sportswriters in this city that post uninformed and under researched columns about who and what the 2005 Central Division Champs White Sox are!!
Just remember being uninformed causes prejudgement which causes prejudice which causes Racism!!
Miguel Tejadas Defensive Numbers @ Shortstop
Year Ag Tm Lg Pos G PO A E DP FP
1998 22 OAK (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/1998.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1998.shtml) SS 104 173 327 26 75 .951
1999 23 OAK (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/1999.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1999.shtml) SS 159 292 471 21 110 .973
2000 24 OAK (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2000.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2000.shtml) SS 160 233 501 21 115 .972 .
2001 25 OAK (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2001.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2001.shtml) SS 162 257 472 20 93 .973 2002 SS 162 230 504 19 106 .975
2003 27 OAK (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/2003.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2003.shtml) SS 162 240 490 21 95 .972
2004 28 BAL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/2004.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2004.shtml) SS 162 264 526 24 118 .971


Derek Jeter's Defensive Numbers @ Shortstop
Year Ag Tm Lg Pos G PO A E DP FP
1996 22 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1996.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1996.shtml) SS 157 244 444 22 83 .969
1997 23 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1997.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1997.shtml) SS 159 244 457 18 87 .975
1998 24 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1998.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1998.shtml) SS 148 223 393 9 82 .986
1999 25 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/1999.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1999.shtml) SS 158 230 391 14 87 .978
2000 26 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2000.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2000.shtml) SS 148 236 349 24 77 .961
2001 27 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2001.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2001.shtml) SS 150 211 344 15 68 .974
2002 28 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2002.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2002.shtml) SS 156 219 367 14 69 .977
2003 29 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2003.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2003.shtml) SS 118 160 271 14 51 .969
2004 30 NYY (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2004.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2004.shtml) SS 154 273 392 13 96 .981

Alex Rodriguez's Defensive Numbers @ Shortstop
Year Ag Tm Lg Pos G PO A E DP FP
1995 19 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1995.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1995.shtml) SS 46 56 106 8 14 .953
1996 20 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1996.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1996.shtml) SS 146 238 404 15 92 .977
1997 21 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1997.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1997.shtml) SS 140 209 394 24 83 .962
1998 22 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1998.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1998.shtml) SS 160 268 445 18 90 .975
1999 23 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/1999.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_1999.shtml) SS 129 213 382 14 104 .977
2000 24 SEA (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SEA/2000.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2000.shtml) SS 148 242 438 10 122 .986
2001 25 TEX (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TEX/2001.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2001.shtml) SS 161 280 451 18 117 .989
2002 26 TEX (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TEX/2002.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2002.shtml) SS 162 259 472 10 108 .987 2003 27 TEX (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TEX/2003.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2003.shtml) SS 158 227 464 8 111 .989
2004 Played with NY @ Third Base

Juan Uribes Defensive Stats @ Shortstop
Year Ag Tm Lg Pos G PO A E DP FP
2001 21 COL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/2001.shtml)NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2001.shtml) SS 69 108 185 5 45 .983
2002 22 COL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/2002.shtml)NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2002.shtml) SS 155 261 505 27 119 .966
2003 23 COL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/2003.shtml)NL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL_2003.shtml) SS 74 143 242 11 57 .972
2B 11 25 40 1 10 .985
CF 1 3 0 0 0 1.000
2004 24 CHW (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2004.shtml) AL (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL_2004.shtml) 2B 77 154 208 6 49 .984
SS 38 54 115 3 31 .983
3B 27 14 41 2 5 .965

The fact that you just called Derek Jeter a great fielder and that he has great range renders your argument useless.

JRIG
03-16-2005, 09:05 AM
The fact that you just called Derek Jeter a great fielder and that he has great range renders your argument useless.

But Jeter won a Gold Glove last year!!!

wdelaney72
03-16-2005, 09:49 AM
Someone please tell my why Ozzie's a dummy. Because he has a thick accent and is difficult to understand? Because he acts kind of goofy some times? What? From what I've seen so far, I don't see any lack of baseball smarts.

1. Calling out your veteran-future-HOF-player when you first get to the manager job.
2. Repeatedly claiming Koch to be your closer and on the first game of the season, "making a gut" decision and putting Marte in during the ninth inning.
3. Granted the 5th starter situation was not Ozzie's fault, but I also felt he was very chaotic in choosing who was pitching.

Look, I love Ozzie. OVERALL, I think he's a good fit for this team. Also, given the available managers at that time, he was the best person for the job. I just think as a handler of the pitching staff, he needs improvement.

As far as all the defensive criticisms, Willie, Gooch, and Uribe are good defensive players. We've ridded ourselves of Mr. Bobblehands Jose. Our defense may not win any gold gloves this year, but it's pretty solid and DECIDEDLY better than the last few years.

I'm very excited about the 2005 season. The Twins are the team to beat, but I believe this year we have a better chance of upsetting them.

Ol' No. 2
03-16-2005, 10:14 AM
1. Calling out your veteran-future-HOF-player when you first get to the manager job.
2. Repeatedly claiming Koch to be your closer and on the first game of the season, "making a gut" decision and putting Marte in during the ninth inning.
3. Granted the 5th starter situation was not Ozzie's fault, but I also felt he was very chaotic in choosing who was pitching.

Look, I love Ozzie. OVERALL, I think he's a good fit for this team. Also, given the available managers at that time, he was the best person for the job. I just think as a handler of the pitching staff, he needs improvement.

As far as all the defensive criticisms, Willie, Gooch, and Uribe are good defensive players. We've ridded ourselves of Mr. Bobblehands Jose. Our defense may not win any gold gloves this year, but it's pretty solid and DECIDEDLY better than the last few years.

I'm very excited about the 2005 season. The Twins are the team to beat, but I believe this year we have a better chance of upsetting them.1. I'll agree that Ozzie calling out FT in his initial presser was not smart, but even smart people do dumb things once in a while. He does have a tendency to start his mouth before his brain is fully engaged, but some smart people do that, too.

2. If Koch wasn't their closer at the beginning of last season, then who? Shingo just sucked in ST, and I doubt anyone here would have wanted him to be the closer at the time. And by "putting Marte in during the ninth inning", I assume you're talking about opening day last year. Who would you have put in? Marte was the only lefty, and you surely can't be saying you'd rather have Matt Stairs at the plate than Mendy Lopez?

3. As you pointed out, the 5th starter situation was a mess. Not having a reliable option is going to make any decision seem chaotic. What better options were there?

I just think that people look at his goofy demeanor and interpret that to mean he's not smart. It doesn't follow. I've known lots of class clowns who were actually very smart people.

maurice
03-16-2005, 01:10 PM
The fact that you just called Derek Jeter a great fielder and that he has great range renders your argument useless.

Actually, they both called Jeter a great fielder, so I guess the arguments cancel each other out.
:D:

skobabe8
03-16-2005, 04:58 PM
I always use a simple rule of thumb when I find myself listening to Jon Kruk, Rob Neyer, or any one of my cub fan friends who think Prior and Wood will have more wins than ANY 2 sox pitchers combined this year:

DONT LET OUTSIDERS TELL ME ABOUT MY TEAM.

Because they just dont know.

pythons007
03-17-2005, 05:42 PM
I always use a simple rule of thumb when I find myself listening to Jon Kruk, Rob Neyer, or any one of my cub fan friends who think Prior and Wood will have more wins than ANY 2 sox pitchers combined this year:

DONT LET OUTSIDERS TELL ME ABOUT MY TEAM.

Because they just dont know.

I agree with this comment. The Cubs staff is way overrated. They have potential, but what really have they accomplished? Their numbers one and two, won a combined 12 games! Garland won 12 games last year. So the Cubs stink! Am I a scout, no, but this is basically what that scout's statement is worth. NOTHING! Here is to a new start in '05!

bigdommer
03-17-2005, 05:54 PM
2. On stolen bases - "Stolen bases are useless unless they're in the 8th or 9th inning. Any other time they're a waste."

So, if there are two outs and nobody on in the 5th inning of a tie ballgame, and Pods singles and steals second, only to score a bloop single by Iguchi, does that stolen base not mean anything?

This is definitely a scout talking. Only scouts skew stats to prove a point. I appreciate what these moneyball guys have done for the game, but you can't watch a game from a boxscore. I'm surprise this guy even went to the game. He could have scouted just as well with a wireless modem from his hotel.

skobabe8
03-28-2005, 05:43 PM
I agree with this comment. The Cubs staff is way overrated. They have potential, but what really have they accomplished? Their numbers one and two, won a combined 12 games! Garland won 12 games last year. So the Cubs stink! Am I a scout, no, but this is basically what that scout's statement is worth. NOTHING! Here is to a new start in '05!

I agree with this comment. Especially "So the Cubs stink!".

dickallen15
03-28-2005, 06:28 PM
Scouts don't undervalue steals. If anything, they overvalue them. Moneyball is not a scout-friendly policy. I really doubt the guy this guy was talking to was a scout. Scouts hate Billy Beane and his beliefs. It takes them right out of the game.

swanson24
03-29-2005, 04:06 PM
Most preseason magazines have picked the White Sox to finish third or in the case of Street & Smith fourth. If people around don't take the White Sox seriously great in fact we should almost encourage them. The fact is this team has a good defensive catcher, A.J. Pierzynski, who was mislabeled as a cancer in San Francisco by Brett Tomko. He just might be our biggest acquisition, seeing as how he played for the Twins against the Sox. We have a deep bullpen with four solid pitchers Marte, Vizcaino, Hermanson and Takatsu. Plus we finally have a starter for that elusive fifth spot in the rotation with "El Duque". We brought in a base stealing machine in Posednik who is effective becasue HE GETS HIMSELF IN SCORING POSITION. Dye won't replace Maggs bat but he should hit around .280 with 25 homers. The Sox have more than enough talent to win this year. The question is, "How much do they want it?"

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_150229.jpg "If I play nine innings, then I play nine innings. Whatever it takes. If I have to stay a couple of extra innings to see those guys, I have no problem with that. I want to go into Opening Day with as much knowledge as I can possibly gain in this small period of time." (A.J. responding to how he is handling his new team as the starting catcher for the White Sox.)

Andy T Clown
04-01-2005, 11:26 PM
I agree with all of you guys.....but I hate to get negative before Opening Day!


GO SOX!!!!!!!

illinibk
10-27-2005, 01:57 PM
I figured htis thread could use a bump. I thought of it this morning, and wondered how this scout feels now.

fquaye149
10-27-2005, 02:22 PM
To be fair, Daver, it's possible to be a superior fielder without being one of the elite. Is Uribe that? I don't know. I am fairly sure, though, that he will get to most balls and make a competitively minimal amount of errors.

The fact is, up the middle, we have not regressed, and the talent to improve up the middle signed elsewhere (though whether alex cora or eckstein are defensive upgrades over uribe is very debatable).

Basically this scout's analysis precludes the misconception that we are "built on speed and defense." Rather, KW's offseason strategy realistically emphasizes PITCHING, not speed or defense, although we did trade a certain amount of power for speed. The real shift was from slugging to pitching. What scout in his right mind would say that wasn't the right move (for us at least)?


since it's already been bumped, I just wanted to remind everyone how much I rule.

Fuller_Schettman
10-27-2005, 02:30 PM
Indeed you do, fquaye!

Be careful though guys. I got threatened with a WS ban for "necromancing" an old thread. Apparently it is an unwritten rule...

KRS1
10-27-2005, 02:32 PM
The funny thing is me and my friends Matt and Pete were at this game and AJ rocked one over right field fence shutting up all the anti AJ cheers. It was so hilarious u had to be there to understand my joy.

hawkjt
10-27-2005, 02:57 PM
Swanson knows what he is talking about with the AJ acquisition.

gobears1987
10-27-2005, 11:32 PM
If you are going to build a team based on pitching and defense, you address your defense up the middle first. You start with a good defensive catcher, that is good with the pitching staff, AJ is not that catcher. Then you get sound defenders at both SS and second, Uribe may be that, but I doubt it, and Iguchi has proven nothing at this level, Willie Harris is average at best. Add to that the fact that the Sox have a left fielder playing center, with an average at best left fielder next to him, makes for an interesting experiment in winning with defense and pitching.We are all wrong a lot, but I have to look back at this one and chuckle a little. Our defense was absolutely amazing.

Daver
10-27-2005, 11:44 PM
We are all wrong a lot, but I have to look back at this one and chuckle a little. Our defense was absolutely amazing.

They won the damn game.


:)