PDA

View Full Version : Barry Bonds: Shameless Assclown


RKMeibalane
03-04-2005, 06:13 PM
Wow. Just wow.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2005214)

"You're talking about something that wasn't even illegal at the time,'' Bonds said. "All this stuff about supplements, protein shakes, whatever. Man, it's not like this is the Olympics. We don't train four years for, like, a 10-second (event). We go 162 games. You've got to come back day after day after day. We're entertainers. If I can't go out there and somebody pays $60 for a ticket, and I'm not in the lineup, who's getting cheated? Not me. There are far worse things like cocaine, heroin and those types of things. "So we all make mistakes. We all do things. We need to turn the page. We need to forget about the past and let us play the game. We're entertainers. Let us entertain."


"You want to define cheating in America? When they make a shirt in Korea for a $1.50 and sell it here for 500 bucks? And you ask me what cheating means? I'll tell you how I cheat. I cheat because I'm my daddy's son. He taught me the game. He taught me things nobody else knows. So that's how I cheat. I'm my daddy's son."


"It busts me up when they show some teenager who's been on steroids and his life is suddenly messed up,'' Bonds said. "It's the parents job to be a parent to that kid. It's like when my son says to me, 'aren't you my friend?' Hell no, I'm not your friend. I'll be a friendly dad, but I'm not your best friend. I love you. The system doesn't love you. You think the system is going to do for you what I will? I want what's best for you. I tell my boy, if I see you doing steroids, I'll bust you up. And I mean it. "


"What's all this about my head size?" Bonds asked. "My hat size is the same today as when I started. My head hasn't grown. I've always been a 7-1/4 to a 7-3/8 my whole career. You can go check. Sometimes you get one and you sweat, it gets smaller, so you go a size up or a size down. Those things shrink when you sweat or they get wet during a season.

"I saw a 13-year-old kid on one of the news shows talking about my head size. How do they know? That kid hasn't seen 15 years of my career and he's talking about my head size. That's one of the saddest things, man. That's manipulation. They manipulated that kid."


"They say it makes your testicles shrink,'' he said. "I can tell you my testicles are the same size. They haven't shrunk. They're the same and work just the same as they always have."


"If you go to a Little League game and hear a parent yelling at your kid about how he stinks. Are you going to sit there and listen to that or do something? Of course you'd do something. We get treated the same way. People are yelling about how horrible we are and how we stink and we can't do anything. You think I want to be up there and strike out with the bases loaded? No one wants that. We all want to succeed. All we do is the same thing a parent tells their kid. We pat the guy and tell him to stay up, that they'll have another chance. We're no different."

Norberto7
03-04-2005, 06:20 PM
Daddy must have taught his mid-30s son how to hit more homers!

daveeym
03-04-2005, 06:33 PM
MLB = WWE, WWF, WWC. Sweet I'd love to see the Hulkster out there on the mound coming from the bullpen with "I'm a real American" playing and doing the can i hear you ear wave thingy.

Unregistered
03-04-2005, 06:41 PM
"They say it makes your testicles shrink,'' he said. "I can tell you my testicles are the same size. They haven't shrunk. They're the same and work just the same as they always have." So, wait - is this Bonds admitting that he uses(d) steroids? That's how I'm reading this line in particular... :?:

RKMeibalane
03-04-2005, 06:46 PM
So, wait - is this Bonds admitting that he uses(d) steroids? That's how I'm reading this line in particular... :?:

It sounds that way. I think he was trying to say that if he were using steroids (which he is), then his testicles would have shrunk, but they haven't, and so he thinks that's proof that he's never used steroids.

The Racehorse
03-04-2005, 06:47 PM
Quote:
"They say it makes your testicles shrink,'' he said. "I can tell you my testicles are the same size. They haven't shrunk. They're the same and work just the same as they always have."

Thanks for the info, Barry. :thud:

Jjav829
03-04-2005, 06:50 PM
This guy is clueless. He doesn't get it. You can't defend him. It's impossible, so I don't even want to see anyone try. You can't do it.

Did he ever realize that there are 25 guys on the other team trying to do the same thing he is? Did he ever think that that pitcher 60 feet, 6 inches away from him doesn't want to have some juiced up, egomaniacal, racist bastard jacking a home run 450 feet off him?

I could go on arguing everything he said but it's just not worth the time. He's a dope. Plain and simple. This guy doesn't deserve to break Hank Aaron's record. It'll be a sad day in baseball when he does.

daveeym
03-04-2005, 07:51 PM
This guy is clueless. He doesn't get it. You can't defend him. It's impossible, so I don't even want to see anyone try. You can't do it.

Did he ever realize that there are 25 guys on the other team trying to do the same thing he is? Did he ever think that that pitcher 60 feet, 6 inches away from him doesn't want to have some juiced up, egomaniacal, racist bastard jacking a home run 450 feet off him?

I could go on arguing everything he said but it's just not worth the time. He's a dope. Plain and simple. This guy doesn't deserve to break Hank Aaron's record. It'll be a sad day in baseball when he does. The saddest thing is all that's going to come out of this is a real testing program. I applaud that don't get me wrong, but with the BS way baseball and society is handling it that's all that's gonna come out of it. No asterisks or anything else, just that it was the steroid era. No punishment, shame, or anything else for these players, just a sense of "we just did what we had to do."

Jabroni
03-04-2005, 07:54 PM
This guy is clueless. He doesn't get it. You can't defend him. It's impossible, so I don't even want to see anyone try. You can't do it.

Did he ever realize that there are 25 guys on the other team trying to do the same thing he is? Did he ever think that that pitcher 60 feet, 6 inches away from him doesn't want to have some juiced up, egomaniacal, racist bastard jacking a home run 450 feet off him?

I could go on arguing everything he said but it's just not worth the time. He's a dope. Plain and simple. This guy doesn't deserve to break Hank Aaron's record. It'll be a sad day in baseball when he does.MR KARNO would try to. :tongue:

RKMeibalane
03-04-2005, 07:56 PM
The saddest thing is all that's going to come out of this is a real testing program. I applaud that don't get me wrong, but with the BS way baseball and society is handling it that's all that's gonna come out of it. No asterisks or anything else, just that it was the steroid era. No punishment, shame, or anything else for these players, just a sense of "we just did what we had to do."

As a general rule, today's soceity seems much more content pushing problems under the rug, hoping that they'll go away. The people I feel sorry for are the young children who are just starting to follow baseball. If steroids represents their first memory of this game, that's sad. Looking back at my own childhood, if the players I grew up watching had used steroids, I probably wouldn't have become a baseball fan.

RKMeibalane
03-04-2005, 07:56 PM
MR KARNO would try to. :tongue:

I'm surprised he hasn't shared his thoughts with us, yet.

daveeym
03-04-2005, 07:59 PM
This guy is clueless. He doesn't get it. You can't defend him. It's impossible, so I don't even want to see anyone try. You can't do it.

Did he ever realize that there are 25 guys on the other team trying to do the same thing he is? Did he ever think that that pitcher 60 feet, 6 inches away from him doesn't want to have some juiced up, egomaniacal, racist bastard jacking a home run 450 feet off him?

I could go on arguing everything he said but it's just not worth the time. He's a dope. Plain and simple. This guy doesn't deserve to break Hank Aaron's record. It'll be a sad day in baseball when he does. Sorry to double post but you raised a different point that i wonder about. Bonds says he gets everything from his dad yada yada. Does he get his racist tendencies from his dad? Can any of the elders here comment on that? While I wouldn't call bonds a racist, he's definitely a race baiter/enabler. Anyone of his stature gets ripped and torn down, that's the price of success. The percantage of the crap he gets because of race has got to be less than 1%. It's his stature and his attitude that causes his grief. I mean really I think 99% of baseball fans probably share a feeling of "if it wasn't for the steroid shadow, and he wasn't such an *******, he'd be more of a savior for baseball than sosa and mac daddy." I don't like or dislike the guy, i find myself wanting to like him but not allowing myself because of his horrible attitude.

MRKARNO
03-04-2005, 08:32 PM
I'm surprised he hasn't shared his thoughts with us, yet.

Well I will now:

I don't understand why everyone is really so surprised that he's making comments like these. It's entirely within his character to say such things. The testicles comment? Over the top, definitely. However, the other comments I didn't find to be offensive. Brash? Yes. Offensive? Not really, unless I'm missing something.

The people who dislike Bonds will probably continue to dislike him and those that don't dislike him probably won't be swayed the other way by these comments. I think he's definitely a brash person who also might not be the most eloquent speaker in the world. I also think he's a little egotistical, but that comes with the territory IMO. Some people simply aren't going to like him and some aren't going to mind his attitude. I'm of the latter group.

RKMeibalane
03-04-2005, 08:36 PM
I don't understand why everyone is really so surprised that he's making comments like these.

I don't think anyone is surprised by what he said, just irritated. Bonds would be better off if he just kept his mouth shut. He is doing both himself and his peers a diservice by spouting off like this. When the average person thinks about Major League Baseball today, it's things like this that he points to as his reason for disliking the sport. I would add that Bonds needs to tone it down in the future, but I don't think that's ever going to happen.

MRKARNO
03-04-2005, 08:41 PM
I don't think anyone is surprised by what he said, just irritated. Bonds would be better off if he just kept his mouth shut. He is doing both himself and his peers a diservice by spouting off like this. When the average person thinks about Major League Baseball today, it's things like this that he points to as his reason for disliking the sport. I would add that Bonds needs to tone it down in the future, but I don't think that's ever going to happen.

The problem is that the press is clamoring to talk to him. Now we know why Bonds has avoided the media in the past. Now the media has gotten their wish and then he starts making comments like this and they are totally shocked. If this is stuff they don't want to hear, then they shouldn't bother talking to him--plain and simple. Bonds isn't going to tone it down, so I would recommend to Bonds that he just stop talking to the media. Nothing good has come out of his discussions with them. Some people just dont get along with and aren't good with the media. Bonds is one of these people.

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 08:56 PM
The saddest thing is all that's going to come out of this is a real testing program. I applaud that don't get me wrong, but with the BS way baseball and society is handling it that's all that's gonna come out of it. No asterisks or anything else, just that it was the steroid era. No punishment, shame, or anything else for these players, just a sense of "we just did what we had to do."No, the saddest thing is that they're NOT going to have a real testing program. They're going to test for only certain drugs, and they're making sure to tell everyone in advance just which ones (wink, wink). But the list is hopelessly behind. They're not testing for HGH, "flaxseed oil" or most of the other new stuff BALCO and the other labs are putting out. And MLB is handling the testing and reporting, so if someone big does test positive, they can hush it up. It's a typical Selig whitewash.

ode to veeck
03-04-2005, 08:59 PM
What's wrong with flaxseed oil, if I might ask. Flax seed is one of the highest sources of omega-B lipids, a naturally occuring healthy fat that helps your brian a ton among other things

and oh yeah, the new improved testing program is still a joke

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 09:07 PM
What's wrong with flaxseed oil, if I might ask. Flax seed is one of the highest sources of omega-B lipids, a naturally occuring healthy fat that helps your brian a ton among other things

and oh yeah, the new improved testing program is still a jokeIt helps your brain? I guess Bonds was rubbing it on the wrong place.:angry:

minastirith67
03-04-2005, 09:28 PM
Well I will now:

I don't understand why everyone is really so surprised that he's making comments like these. It's entirely within his character to say such things. The testicles comment? Over the top, definitely. However, the other comments I didn't find to be offensive. Brash? Yes. Offensive? Not really, unless I'm missing something.

The people who dislike Bonds will probably continue to dislike him and those that don't dislike him probably won't be swayed the other way by these comments. I think he's definitely a brash person who also might not be the most eloquent speaker in the world. I also think he's a little egotistical, but that comes with the territory IMO. Some people simply aren't going to like him and some aren't going to mind his attitude. I'm of the latter group.

MRKARNO,

I agree with you on this one. The media circus is making an example of Bonds. I hate the media with each passing day of Michael Jackson and Barry Bonds.

They are baiting Bonds with questions. If he's smart, he doesn't talk to them but then they make him look like an ass nonetheless. He talks to them, sounds like an idiot.

NEWSFLASH: steroids does not help you make contact with the ball. It has no effect on his incredible ability to hit major league pitching and draw walks. For this reason Bonds should go down as a legend.

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 09:33 PM
MRKARNO,

I agree with you on this one. The media circus is making an example of Bonds. I hate the media with each passing day of Michael Jackson and Barry Bonds.

They are baiting Bonds with questions. If he's smart, he doesn't talk to them but then they make him look like an ass nonetheless. He talks to them, sounds like an idiot.

NEWSFLASH: steroids does not help you make contact with the ball. It has no effect on his incredible ability to hit major league pitching and draw walks. For this reason Bonds should go down as a legend.NEWSFLASH: Steroids do turn a lot of harmless fly balls into home runs, though. If half of Bonds' 73 HR were 50' shorter and dropped in for harmless fly balls he would have hit .251 in 2001.

daveeym
03-04-2005, 09:37 PM
No, the saddest thing is that they're NOT going to have a real testing program. They're going to test for only certain drugs, and they're making sure to tell everyone in advance just which ones (wink, wink). But the list is hopelessly behind. They're not testing for HGH, "flaxseed oil" or most of the other new stuff BALCO and the other labs are putting out. And MLB is handling the testing and reporting, so if someone big does test positive, they can hush it up. It's a typical Selig whitewash.This will be a bit disjointed without being able to easily use multiple post quotes but...When i say there will be a real testing program I don't mean what is in place now but what will come out of all this (congressional hearing etc.).

Ode to veeck funniest steroid post yet. Props to you.

Everyone and anyone on Bonds. The problem is he isn't that stupid, he is that egotistical. His ego makes him think he's innocent BUT keeps him alienating everyone because he won't shut up. This was an admission plain and simple. If by some slim chance it wasn't, he enjoys the controversey and he's been playing everyone. Either way he's an ass. I mean come on, how do you say i play the game for the love of it, then imply you knowing did steroids and the game is "entertainment."

The probelm is I can't tell what controls Bonds, his mind or his hatred/animosity towards anyone that dislikes him (aka his ego). Either he's the smartest guy ever to play the game and the ultimate mind **** or he's literally got the biggest ego ever. I lean towards the latter.

And honestly I dont' blame the guy. He was the bomb before roids but when it's considered "legal" and the guy can afford top notch medical support why wouldn't you make sure to keep your advantage.

voodoochile
03-04-2005, 09:37 PM
The saddest thing is all that's going to come out of this is a real testing program. I applaud that don't get me wrong, but with the BS way baseball and society is handling it that's all that's gonna come out of it. No asterisks or anything else, just that it was the steroid era. No punishment, shame, or anything else for these players, just a sense of "we just did what we had to do."

Sadder still is that it will be a temporary fix. The players will just go to new undetectable or unbanned substances. It isn't going to change a thing.

This is big business and the means to cheat are always a step or two ahead of the people policing the system.

balke
03-04-2005, 09:39 PM
Its great that all this is being taken out on 3-5 players, when this has been a 25 year problem that noone ever tried to fix. People hate Bonds so much, but what about all the pitchers that we'll probably never know that did the juice to increase thier endurance throughout a season?

People want to get on Bonds the most because he is the most successful man to have his name associated with Balco. So, people that actually admit to doing steroids or supplying them (Canseco, Caminit, Conti) take a back seat to the mystery of who was or is juiced. The league that has allowed this to go on for so long when EVERYONE knew (not just the league or FBI, us fans as well) that the league was juiced, avoids responsibility. Then the honest players who NEVER did steroids like Frank Thomas get thier names dragged into the circus and are stuck with the label whether there is evidence, accusation, or reason to it.

Steroids were not banned in baseball. I think Barry has the right to say that. Steroids were not tested for, I think that's the most important thing to take away from all of this. Barry is a cocky spoiled jerk raised by baseball gods to be this great. He has always hit the ball. He does have one of the quickest bats in the league. He apparently did use Balco, which was technically not an outlawed substance.

All this blame needs to fall on the League, the commissioner, and the suppliers of these "performance enhancing drugs". Barry Bonds shouldn't be the enemy, when he's one of the big reasons anyone is watching. I don't know that he will break Aaron's record. I don't know if he even wants to. If he does, the blame should be placed on the league, for allowing the juice to break the HR records.

As for a swollen head, I think that's funny. Out of the people I thought juiced, I thought Bonds looked the most proportional. The testes were a stretch, but whatever. He has to answer these questions 365 days a year, he has to answer to the fans every game. Plenty of frustrated one-liners are going to come out.

daveeym
03-04-2005, 09:41 PM
Sadder still is that it will be a temporary fix. The players will just go to new undetectable or unbanned substances. It isn't going to change a thing.

This is big business and the means to cheat are always a step or two ahead of the people policing the system. I agree, whether it happens in our lifetimes who knows but, technology will catch up to the cheaters, it always happens. There's just more incentive in it for the cheats.

I'd rather see a real effort though that can't keep up than the bs that's proposed so far.

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 09:44 PM
Sadder still is that it will be a temporary fix. The players will just go to new undetectable or unbanned substances. It isn't going to change a thing.

This is big business and the means to cheat are always a step or two ahead of the people policing the system.True enough. International sports has the most stringent system that can be fashioned, and they still routinely catch people. The rewards are just too high and too tempting. But that doesn't mean the policing system isn't accomplishing anything worthwhile. With a good testing system, you can get away with it for a while, but if you do it long enough you're likely to get caught. No system is going to be foolproof, but with sufficient penalties, it will be as clean as they can make it, and a hell of a lot better than it is now..

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 09:49 PM
Its great that all this is being taken out on 3-5 players, when this has been a 25 year problem that noone ever tried to fix. People hate Bonds so much, but what about all the pitchers that we'll probably never know that did the juice to increase thier endurance throughout a season?

People want to get on Bonds the most because he is the most successful man to have his name associated with Balco. So, people that actually admit to doing steroids or supplying them (Canseco, Caminit, Conti) take a back seat to the mystery of who was or is juiced. The league that has allowed this to go on for so long when EVERYONE knew (not just the league or FBI, us fans as well) that the league was juiced, avoids responsibility. Then the honest players who NEVER did steroids like Frank Thomas get thier names dragged into the circus and are stuck with the label whether there is evidence, accusation, or reason to it.

Steroids were not banned in baseball. I think Barry has the right to say that. Steroids were not tested for, I think that's the most important thing to take away from all of this. Barry is a cocky spoiled jerk raised by baseball gods to be this great. He has always hit the ball. He does have one of the quickest bats in the league. He apparently did use Balco, which was technically not an outlawed substance.

All this blame needs to fall on the League, the commissioner, and the suppliers of these "performance enhancing drugs". Barry Bonds shouldn't be the enemy, when he's one of the big reasons anyone is watching. I don't know that he will break Aaron's record. I don't know if he even wants to. If he does, the blame should be placed on the league, for allowing the juice to break the HR records.

As for a swollen head, I think that's funny. Out of the people I thought juiced, I thought Bonds looked the most proportional. The testes were a stretch, but whatever. He has to answer these questions 365 days a year, he has to answer to the fans every game. Plenty of frustrated one-liners are going to come out.I agree that MLB has to accept its share of the blame. But that doesn't absolve Bonds and the others who took the stuff. They knew what they were doing was against the unwritten rules. Why else would they go to such lengths to hide it? There's no written rule saying you can't turn on the air conditioning fans when your team is at bat, either, but everyone knows that's against the rules.

daveeym
03-04-2005, 09:54 PM
Its great that all this is being taken out on 3-5 players, when this has been a 25 year problem that noone ever tried to fix. People hate Bonds so much, but what about all the pitchers that we'll probably never know that did the juice to increase thier endurance throughout a season?

People want to get on Bonds the most because he is the most successful man to have his name associated with Balco. So, people that actually admit to doing steroids or supplying them (Canseco, Caminit, Conti) take a back seat to the mystery of who was or is juiced. The league that has allowed this to go on for so long when EVERYONE knew (not just the league or FBI, us fans as well) that the league was juiced, avoids responsibility. Then the honest players who NEVER did steroids like Frank Thomas get thier names dragged into the circus and are stuck with the label whether there is evidence, accusation, or reason to it.

Steroids were not banned in baseball. I think Barry has the right to say that. Steroids were not tested for, I think that's the most important thing to take away from all of this. Barry is a cocky spoiled jerk raised by baseball gods to be this great. He has always hit the ball. He does have one of the quickest bats in the league. He apparently did use Balco, which was technically not an outlawed substance.

All this blame needs to fall on the League, the commissioner, and the suppliers of these "performance enhancing drugs". Barry Bonds shouldn't be the enemy, when he's one of the big reasons anyone is watching. I don't know that he will break Aaron's record. I don't know if he even wants to. If he does, the blame should be placed on the league, for allowing the juice to break the HR records.

As for a swollen head, I think that's funny. Out of the people I thought juiced, I thought Bonds looked the most proportional. The testes were a stretch, but whatever. He has to answer these questions 365 days a year, he has to answer to the fans every game. Plenty of frustrated one-liners are going to come out. First of all you're putting the cart ahead of the horse, regardless of whether it was tested for, steroids were flat out illegal. As in against the law. The league etc. deserves just as much blame and they'll get it but don't even try to give the players a free pass.

Regarding Frank, no one knows why frank has been invited to dance, those that actually pay attention are probably right that it's because he's a big guy that hasn't had ridiculous flucations in size or stats and that he's probalby being called on to give the NON STEROID taking point of view. Just cuz the media is too stupid (which I doubt) or more concerned about making a buck, doesn't mean they're accusing Frank of ****. This congressional hearing hasn't accused anyone yet. Daddy Mac and Giambi are really the only ones that might get some tough questions, schilling and thomas are probably on the "let's use them as an example of how hard work and anti steroids is the way to be." The only thing that scares me about Frank is that the FBI has already weighed in, but considering a hearing of this sort USUALLY presents BOTH SIDES I'm pretty confident Frank isn't being accused but being used to prove steroids suck.

daveeym
03-04-2005, 10:02 PM
I agree that MLB has to accept its share of the blame. But that doesn't absolve Bonds and the others who took the stuff. They knew what they were doing was against the unwritten rules. Why else would they go to such lengths to hide it? There's no written rule saying you can't turn on the air conditioning fans when your team is at bat, either, but everyone knows that's against the rules. Yeah but AC is gamesmanship. Hate to argue with someone i suport on the issue but they aren't even close to being comparable. And that's one of the subtle (but really not so subtle differences) about it. Cheating/gamesmanship is cheating yes. But it's so far from taking steroids or paying off players and shaving points. There's an embarrassment and humilation behind getting caught with an emory board or cork (unless your a cub). The way steroids stand right now, and the way the league and players are getting off scott free it's like taking steroids is on the same level as the hidden ball trick. The fact is that baseball is a sport, and that due to the instant media we have today and the other crap going on there's no shock, or awe, or dissapointment in response to any of this crap. It's par for the course, damn look it happened again. More of a reflection on society than on baseball IMHO.

balke
03-04-2005, 10:08 PM
The only thing that scares me about Frank is that the FBI has already weighed in, but considering a hearing of this sort USUALLY presents BOTH SIDES I'm pretty confident Frank isn't being accused but being used to prove steroids suck.

I also believe Frank is being called as an anti-steroid voice. But as an earlier thread by Lip proves today, I'm going to have to listen to morons on sports talks say "Who's to say Thomas WASN'T on steroids?!". For a long time. Which is what the media does, cause there is no way to absolve players of this. All are guilty until proven innocent. And there's no way to test a players past.

This whole thing is a big mess, as I said before... it should have been taken care of 20 years ago, as soon as the media caught wind.

As far as the law goes, players won't be punished from the league for spousal abuse, tax evasion, DUI's, etc. As tedious and pointless as it seems, guidelines such as making PED's against the rules of baseball should have always been in place. I mean... why weren't they? That's something people need to ask themselves. How is it something like Creatine raises such a big stink, and yet here we are 3-4 years later dealing with the same type of issue?

Marijuana is against the law, how many NBA players are smoking pot? How many would miss playing time if they were caught and in the papers for it? The leagues do this to themselves. It benefits them to provide their players with luxuries. They knew (know), they didn't (won't) do anything.

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 10:08 PM
Yeah but AC is gamesmanship. Hate to argue with someone i suport on the issue but they aren't even close to being comparable. And that's one of the subtle (but really not so subtle differences) about it. Cheating/gamesmanship is cheating yes. But it's so far from taking steroids or paying off players and shaving points. There's an embarrassment and humilation behind that. The way steroids stand right now, and the way the league and players are getting off scott free it's like taking steroids is on the same level as the hidden ball trick. The fact is that baseball is a sport, and that due to the instant media we have today and the other crap going on there's no shock, or awe, or dissapointment in response to any of this crap. It's par for the course, damn look it happened again. More of a reflection on society than on baseball IMHO.I didn't mean that taking steroids was equivalent to playing with the A/C. The point was that they can't hide behind the "no rule against it" excuse. There are unwritten rules that everyone understands. They all knew perfectly well that what they were doing was against the rules or they wouldn't have gone to such lengths to hide it.

Jjav829
03-04-2005, 10:11 PM
Well I will now:

I don't understand why everyone is really so surprised that he's making comments like these. It's entirely within his character to say such things. The testicles comment? Over the top, definitely. However, the other comments I didn't find to be offensive. Brash? Yes. Offensive? Not really, unless I'm missing something.

The people who dislike Bonds will probably continue to dislike him and those that don't dislike him probably won't be swayed the other way by these comments. I think he's definitely a brash person who also might not be the most eloquent speaker in the world. I also think he's a little egotistical, but that comes with the territory IMO. Some people simply aren't going to like him and some aren't going to mind his attitude. I'm of the latter group.

Ok, so you don't mind his attitude. Do you mind the cheating and steroid abuse?

daveeym
03-04-2005, 10:13 PM
I didn't mean that taking steroids was equivalent to playing with the A/C. The point was that they can't hide behind the "no rule against it" excuse. There are unwritten rules that everyone understands. They all knew perfectly well that what they were doing was against the rules or they wouldn't have gone to such lengths to hide it. I hear ya and agree, I actually didn't think you were stating that and I'm on the same page as you. Just an issue that gets me heated up and without using teal I was hoping to run with your idea and hopefully not rip on ya but clarify/entend the point.

Jjav829
03-04-2005, 10:14 PM
MRKARNO,

I agree with you on this one. The media circus is making an example of Bonds. I hate the media with each passing day of Michael Jackson and Barry Bonds.

They are baiting Bonds with questions. If he's smart, he doesn't talk to them but then they make him look like an ass nonetheless. He talks to them, sounds like an idiot.

NEWSFLASH: steroids does not help you make contact with the ball. It has no effect on his incredible ability to hit major league pitching and draw walks. For this reason Bonds should go down as a legend.

First off, he'll never be a legend.

Second, if steroids and HGH don't help you, why take them? Why are all these athletes taking them and risking getting caught if it doesn't help them do anything? You don't have to answer this because the answer is pretty clear. They believe steroids and HGH do help them.

daveeym
03-04-2005, 10:18 PM
I also believe Frank is being called as an anti-steroid voice. But as an earlier thread by Lip proves today, I'm going to have to listen to morons on sports talks say "Who's to say Thomas WASN'T on steroids?!". For a long time. Which is what the media does, cause there is no way to absolve players of this. All are guilty until proven innocent. And there's no way to test a players past.

This whole thing is a big mess, as I said before... it should have been taken care of 20 years ago, as soon as the media caught wind.

As far as the law goes, players won't be punished from the league for spousal abuse, tax evasion, DUI's, etc. As tedious and pointless as it seems, guidelines such as making PED's against the rules of baseball should have always been in place. I mean... why weren't they? That's something people need to ask themselves. How is it something like Creatine raises such a big stink, and yet here we are 3-4 years later dealing with the same type of issue?

Marijuana is against the law, how many NBA players are smoking pot? How many would miss playing time if they were caught and in the papers for it? The leagues do this to themselves. It benefits them to provide their players with luxuries. They knew (know), they didn't (won't) do anything.You already basically said it yourself, as Sox fans in this town we know the bull**** associated with the media. But as far as Marijuana goes and the NBA the NBA is actually LIGHTYEARS ahead of MLB. They know the problem exists, they don't encourage it, after these bozo's get caught by cops they pile on more penalties on these guys, and suspend them/fine them when they catch them on their own. Pot has a different stigma and almost an acceptance among, dare I say a majority of people, and yet the NBA still punishes their players moreso than MLB does steroid abusers. Again i feel it's a society issue with society being lax on it rather than the NBA which is definitely stricter than MLB.

Back to roids the sad thing is Bonds says he'd kick his sons ass if he was on roids. I don't doubt it. I don't doubt 99% of society would do the same but when it comes to Baseball and what we expect at society it's just not surprising and not a big deal to anyone.

voodoochile
03-04-2005, 10:22 PM
MRKARNO,

I agree with you on this one. The media circus is making an example of Bonds. I hate the media with each passing day of Michael Jackson and Barry Bonds.

They are baiting Bonds with questions. If he's smart, he doesn't talk to them but then they make him look like an ass nonetheless. He talks to them, sounds like an idiot.

NEWSFLASH: steroids does not help you make contact with the ball. It has no effect on his incredible ability to hit major league pitching and draw walks. For this reason Bonds should go down as a legend.

Your what hurts?

If it has no effect, WHY DOES HE TAKE THEM? :rolleyes:

NEWSFLASH: If Bond weren't taking steroids and thus jacking HR at an every increasing pace at an age when most players are starting to decline (oh that little detail... that's just because he is a legend right?) HE WOULDN'T BE WALKING SO MUCH!

How the heck ANYONE can still defend these jackasses is beyond me.

daveeym
03-04-2005, 10:25 PM
First off, he'll never be a legend.

Second, if steroids and HGH don't help you, why take them? Why are all these athletes taking them and risking getting caught if it doesn't help them do anything? You don't have to answer this because the answer is pretty clear. They believe steroids and HGH do help them. Don't even pander to him, it's not a belief it's fact. Bonds great player YES. Bonds on steroids better player HELL YES. Did Bonds need steroids to be a hall of famer, NO. But his egotistical ass couldn't accept schmucks competing with him and making more money than him because of steroids so he took them. Ego's a bitch, some can control it some can't, Bonds can't. So unfortunatley for his sorry ass, someone that would have been a shoe in for the hall of fame couldn't accept a smaller part of the limelight and had to go and get on steroids and screw himself.

balke
03-04-2005, 10:29 PM
First off, he'll never be a legend.

Second, if steroids and HGH don't help you, why take them? Why are all these athletes taking them and risking getting caught if it doesn't help them do anything? You don't have to answer this because the answer is pretty clear. They believe steroids and HGH do help them.

Well, that's not 100% true. Tarnished legend is a lock. Deeply Tarnished legend. He'll be thrown in a box w/ Slowsa and Mac.

If he comes out this season right here, pitchers get the crazy notion that "Hey I'm going to throw right past this guy now that he's off the juice", and they are dumb enough to let him see 500 ABs... all he has to do is produce. If Barry Bonds comes out and hits 50+ hr's, perhaps breaks the all time record THIS season... a HUGE amount of the people that hate him won't know what to say.

As far as people knowing HGH helps, that's true. These people are ultra competitive, and want to feel their best every at-bat, which is what I hear steroids does for you. These players know what steroids is going to do for them. On a lesser scale, players know what pain killers are going to do for them, in all sports. That's something else the leagues should probably look into, as it seems to turn into an addiction for people, and negatively affect thier physical well-being.

daveeym
03-04-2005, 10:33 PM
Well, that's not 100% true. Tarnished legend is a lock. Deeply Tarnished legend. He'll be thrown in a box w/ Slowsa and Mac.

If he comes out this season right here, pitchers get the crazy notion that "Hey I'm going to throw right past this guy now that he's off the juice", and they are dumb enough to let him see 500 ABs... all he has to do is produce. If Barry Bonds comes out and hits 50+ hr's, perhaps breaks the all time record THIS season... a HUGE amount of the people that hate him won't know what to say.

As far as people knowing HGH helps, that's true. These people are ultra competitive, and want to feel their best every at-bat, which is what I hear steroids does for you. These players know what steroids is going to do for them. On a lesser scale, players know what pain killers are going to do for them, in all sports. That's something else the leagues should probably look into, as it seems to turn into an addiction for people, and negatively affect thier physical well-being.Seriously, at the risk of bringing the moderators' wrath down on me, please take your ass out of here. You're embarrassing yourself and the human race. Giving Bonds any credit after his bs interviews and trying to even say that the NEW testing will stop anyone is embarrassing.

If pitchers want any crazy notions, it's **** bonds he wants 200 walks a season those 200 walks are gonna be from being plunked with a fastball to the ribs.

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 10:35 PM
Well, that's not 100% true. Tarnished legend is a lock. Deeply Tarnished legend. He'll be thrown in a box w/ Slowsa and Mac.

If he comes out this season right here, pitchers get the crazy notion that "Hey I'm going to throw right past this guy now that he's off the juice", and they are dumb enough to let him see 500 ABs... all he has to do is produce. If Barry Bonds comes out and hits 50+ hr's, perhaps breaks the all time record THIS season... a HUGE amount of the people that hate him won't know what to say.

As far as people knowing HGH helps, that's true. These people are ultra competitive, and want to feel their best every at-bat, which is what I hear steroids does for you. These players know what steroids is going to do for them. On a lesser scale, players know what pain killers are going to do for them, in all sports. That's something else the leagues should probably look into, as it seems to turn into an addiction for people, and negatively affect thier physical well-being.Who says Bonds is off the juice? He can use all the "flaxseed oil" he wants. They're not testing for it. Or maybe he just decided to stop on his own.:rolleyes: Who cares about passing Ruth and Aaron, anyway?

balke
03-04-2005, 10:39 PM
You already basically said it yourself, as Sox fans in this town we know the bull**** associated with the media. But as far as Marijuana goes and the NBA the NBA is actually LIGHTYEARS ahead of MLB. They know the problem exists, they don't encourage it, after these bozo's get caught by cops they pile on more penalties on these guys, and suspend them/fine them when they catch them on their own. Pot has a different stigma and almost an acceptance among, dare I say a majority of people, and yet the NBA still punishes their players moreso than MLB does steroid abusers. Again i feel it's a society issue with society being lax on it rather than the NBA which is definitely stricter than MLB.

Back to roids the sad thing is Bonds says he'd kick his sons ass if he was on roids. I don't doubt it. I don't doubt 99% of society would do the same but when it comes to Baseball and what we expect at society it's just not surprising and not a big deal to anyone.

The NBA waits until they get caught, just like the MLB. People do seem to be more accepting of marijuana, but in both cases it just takes a cup of urine. The NBA isn't testing, the MLB hasn't tested until now. The NFL gives you 3 strikes before any word gets out that you are taking drugs. If they tested these players, these leagues wouldn't have half the players they do. That is unfortunate, but shows the greed behind everything IMO.

Owners want to get these athletes however they can, they'll make the rules just loose enough that they can still come out and get paid way too much for playing a sport while being able to party in their off time and come off as a role model to kids, when in fact most aren't.

Really, it would be a shame if we outlawed everything and tested no tolerance. We'd be stuck with the losers that actually enjoy playing the game for a living fair, sober, and legal.

:rolleyes: I forgot we need teal to detect sarcasm. :tongue:

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 10:42 PM
Really, it would be a shame if we outlawed everything and tested no tolerance. We'd be stuck with the losers that actually enjoy playing the game for a living fair, sober, and legal.Yeah. That would really suck to have to watch players actually relying on their own abilities.

daveeym
03-04-2005, 10:42 PM
The NBA waits until they get caught, just like the MLB. People do seem to be more accepting of marijuana, but in both cases it just takes a cup of urine. The NBA isn't testing, the MLB hasn't tested until now. The NFL gives you 3 strikes before any word gets out that you are taking drugs. If they tested these players, these leagues wouldn't have half the players they do. That is unfortunate, but shows the greed behind everything IMO.

Owners want to get these athletes however they can, they'll make the rules just loose enough that they can still come out and get paid way too much for playing a sport while being able to party in their off time and come off as a role model to kids, when in fact most aren't.

Really, it would be a shame if we outlawed everything and tested no tolerance. We'd be stuck with the losers that actually enjoy playing the game for a living fair, sober, and legal.First intelligent thing you said on the night, but the fact is regardless of the illegality of marijuana it's not improving these guys games. It's not CHEATING, big difference there. It's illegal yes, but it's not cheating.

Rocklive99
03-04-2005, 10:56 PM
Oh man, these comments and the press conference make it obvious to me that this guy knowingly took steroids (and might still be taking human growth hormone). Come on, all the questions if steroids are cheating, saying it's not the olympics, talking about putting everything in the past. It sounds like he is trying to justify using them and is on the defense, something he wouldn't do if took them unknowningly as he claimed under oath

minastirith67
03-05-2005, 12:07 AM
Your what hurts?

If it has no effect, WHY DOES HE TAKE THEM? :rolleyes:

NEWSFLASH: If Bond weren't taking steroids and thus jacking HR at an every increasing pace at an age when most players are starting to decline (oh that little detail... that's just because he is a legend right?) HE WOULDN'T BE WALKING SO MUCH!

How the heck ANYONE can still defend these jackasses is beyond me.

The desired effect that Bonds would have used steroids for would be to increase muscle mass, just like any other anabolic steroid user. As has been demonstrated earlier, Bonds could hit prior to 'getting huge' or whatever. Muscle mass does not determine the ability to hit a baseball. The ability to hit home runs, yes, but not base hit after base hit OR draw walks.

These hitters took steroids because they wanted more HRs and power in their swing. My guess is that Bonds would have been a legend even if he had avoided the cream and the clear.

I'm not saying what Bonds did was right. I just think that people are blowing the situation way outta order and the media (god bless 'em) hate bonds and really stick it to him because he's not 'their' kind of guy. This issue is deeper than a lot of people make it out to be.

MRKARNO
03-05-2005, 12:46 AM
Do you mind the cheating and steroid abuse?

I haven't been convinced of that yet beyond a reasonable doubt, but if new evidence came to light that unmistakably proved that he was using steroids before the 73-HR season and in the following years, then how could I view him in the same light? I'm not saying that steroids are acceptable, and I never have. All I'm saying is that the evidence that has been presented hasn't been enough to convince me. I think a lot of the speculation has run very wild in this whole thing and it's unfortunate. If a great player got defamed unfairly because of this wild speculation then it would be a great tragedy (and I'm not only referring to Bonds here).

I admit that I have thrown around the steroids label in the past to players that I might not have liked, but it was wrong and inconsistant of me to do so; therefore, I'm going to try to limit that as much as possible to stay consistant. If Sammy got where he was by legitimite means, then so be it.

balke
03-05-2005, 01:15 AM
1986: 16
1987: 25
1988: 24
1989: 19

1990: 33- 156 Hits
1991: 25- 107 WALKS
1992: 34- 127 walks

Acquired by San Francisco.

1993: 46 - 181 Hits 126 walks

1994: 37 - strike/lockout Matt Williams on pace to break maris' record, Barry 6 behind. 300 AB
1995: 33- 120 walks
1996: 42- 151 BB
1997: 40- 145 BB

1998: 37- 130 BB
1999: 34 - injury? - 355 AB's
2000: 49- mccovey cove, Pac Bell's debut. A Left-handed monster house.
2001: 73

2002: 46- 198 BB
2003: 45
2004: 45- 232 BB

OPS. over 1.000 since 1992 w/ the Pittsburgh Pirates.

Balco probably happened. But his #'s seem to jump or stay low in logical ways. When he was in the 30-40 range of hr's, he was mainly in pittsburgh, or otherwise being walked a TON. Then he moves to SBC, and his numbers skyrocket, he's still doing it there.

I can't just be like "Oh man, steroids made him hit so many hr's". Cause he always did it. I think more of how old he is hitting hr's, and say "how is he not injured, how is his bat not slowing down?"

At the same time you have to realize that he gets to sit down when he's tired. "I'm taking myself out of this game, I'm tired". He does it all the time, paces himself, and pushes himself. This guy is a freak. And with the environment he grew up in it only makes sense.

People got so wrapped up in his SB career, they ignored his 30+ hr seasons. Even w/o steroids, there's a lot more out there every year to help you grow your body. There's a demand for it.

This problem should've never happened. Someone w/ these #'s should have developed in a league w/ steroid testing. Now, he's guilty til proven innocent which is impossible. We are possibly watching the most consistant Hr hitter to play the game (This could've been Griffey or Frank possibly) and we can't enjoy it because the league did nothing about steroids. that's why I blame them. What if there was a Griffey right w/ him? His name would be dragged right under the truck with Bonds'. Huge fumble by MLB.

voodoochile
03-05-2005, 07:05 AM
This problem should've never happened. Someone w/ these #'s should have developed in a league w/ steroid testing. Now, he's guilty til proven innocent which is impossible. We are possibly watching the most consistant Hr hitter to play the game (This could've been Griffey or Frank possibly) and we can't enjoy it because the league did nothing about steroids. that's why I blame them. What if there was a Griffey right w/ him? His name would be dragged right under the truck with Bonds'. Huge fumble by MLB.

The problem is that we already know the guy used the stuff. We know he cheated. We can safely assume he is now lying when he says he didn't know he was using steroids.

How do we know he hasn't been taking them all along? Do we believe ShamME* when he says he never used the corked bat before the single time it shattered? Do we believe him when he says he it's Flinstone Vitamins? Do we believe the righteous indignation when he refuses Rick Reilly's offer to take him for testing right then and there?

Is it only Barry who gets a pass because he has the pedigree? Becuase he has the record? Because he isn't cuddly? Because the media dislikes him and MUST be out to get him?

Does MLB deserve some grief for letting this issue explode? Absolutely. Does Barry deserve a pass? no. Will Barry continue to catch grief so long as he continues to deny and cover up? Yes.

Giambi apologized (albeit without actually using the word steroid) and he has since faded into the background on the subject. Bonds is taking the opposite tact. He is leveling charges of racism. He is denying. He is lying. He is shifting the blame. He is passing the buck.

That as much as anything has to do with the way he is being treated.

Wsoxmike59
03-05-2005, 08:17 AM
It's funny to hear Barroid Bonds level the charges of "racism" because of his involvement in the BALCO steroid scandal.

But didn't Bonds once say he'd like to play long enough to pass Babe Ruth in career HR totals, but leave the game TIED WITH HENRY AARON???? Bonds sounds like the racist to me.

minastirith67
03-05-2005, 09:02 AM
Dead on, balke. This is the league's fault for allowing such a lax steroid policy. Practically every other sport league in the world has a much more stringent anti-doping policy (see Football Association in England with their handling of Rio Ferdinand and Adrian Mutu). MLB deserves the blame after years of looking away. Bonds may have personal faults for this but I'm not going to place scapegoat blame on him for a poor policy to begin with.

idseer
03-05-2005, 09:06 AM
i still shake my head over people who still think bonds didn't use steroids. people who think there's just not enough evidence. people who think steroids don't improve hitting (if non-steroidal bonds actually hits 50 hr's in '01 that makes 23 more flyouts reducing his average from .328 to .280 ... good season but hardly ruthian). people who believe he'd still have all those walks even if he wasn't cheating.

a non-steroidal bonds MAY have made the hall without juicing and he may NOT have. there's no way to tell now. one thing is for sure ... he's not an all time great. never was and never will be. bonds lovers take heart. you still have all those records to look at, empty tho they may be.

idseer
03-05-2005, 09:07 AM
Dead on, balke. This is the league's fault for allowing such a lax steroid policy. Practically every other sport league in the world has a much more stringent anti-doping policy (see Football Association in England with their handling of Rio Ferdinand and Adrian Mutu). MLB deserves the blame after years of looking away. Bonds may have personal faults for this but I'm not going to place scapegoat blame on him for a poor policy to begin with.

twisted thinking. bonds isn't at fault because he knew he could get away with it. TWISTED!

Mickster
03-05-2005, 09:37 AM
i still shake my head over people who still think bonds didn't use steroids. people who think there's just not enough evidence. people who think steroids don't improve hitting (if non-steroidal bonds actually hits 50 hr's in '01 that makes 23 more flyouts reducing his average from .328 to .280 ... good season but hardly ruthian). people who believe he'd still have all those walks even if he wasn't cheating.

a non-steroidal bonds MAY have made the hall without juicing and he may NOT have. there's no way to tell now. one thing is for sure ... he's not an all time great. never was and never will be. bonds lovers take heart. you still have all those records to look at, empty tho they may be.

:thumbsup:

Dadawg_77
03-05-2005, 10:21 AM
Ok, so you don't mind his attitude. Do you mind the cheating and steroid abuse?

It has yet to be proved. Everything saying Bonds cheated or abuse steroids are guesses and conjecture.

Dadawg_77
03-05-2005, 10:40 AM
1986: 16
1987: 25
1988: 24
1989: 19

1990: 33- 156 Hits
1991: 25- 107 WALKS
1992: 34- 127 walks

Acquired by San Francisco.

1993: 46 - 181 Hits 126 walks

1994: 37 - strike/lockout Matt Williams on pace to break maris' record, Barry 6 behind. 300 AB
1995: 33- 120 walks
1996: 42- 151 BB
1997: 40- 145 BB

1998: 37- 130 BB
1999: 34 - injury? - 355 AB's
2000: 49- mccovey cove, Pac Bell's debut. A Left-handed monster house.
2001: 73

2002: 46- 198 BB
2003: 45
2004: 45- 232 BB

OPS. over 1.000 since 1992 w/ the Pittsburgh Pirates.

Balco probably happened. But his #'s seem to jump or stay low in logical ways. When he was in the 30-40 range of hr's, he was mainly in pittsburgh, or otherwise being walked a TON. Then he moves to SBC, and his numbers skyrocket, he's still doing it there.

I can't just be like "Oh man, steroids made him hit so many hr's". Cause he always did it. I think more of how old he is hitting hr's, and say "how is he not injured, how is his bat not slowing down?"

At the same time you have to realize that he gets to sit down when he's tired. "I'm taking myself out of this game, I'm tired". He does it all the time, paces himself, and pushes himself. This guy is a freak. And with the environment he grew up in it only makes sense.

People got so wrapped up in his SB career, they ignored his 30+ hr seasons. Even w/o steroids, there's a lot more out there every year to help you grow your body. There's a demand for it.

This problem should've never happened. Someone w/ these #'s should have developed in a league w/ steroid testing. Now, he's guilty til proven innocent which is impossible. We are possibly watching the most consistant Hr hitter to play the game (This could've been Griffey or Frank possibly) and we can't enjoy it because the league did nothing about steroids. that's why I blame them. What if there was a Griffey right w/ him? His name would be dragged right under the truck with Bonds'. Huge fumble by MLB.

He had a nice power jump in 1999 going forward, look at his ISO power not a counting of home runs. Also he hasn't had a traditional player development curve, which could be results of HGH.

HGH is legal drug when used with a prescitpion and is mostly use to treat Human Growth Hormone Hgh deficiency, and Turner syndrome in children. There is clinical research that HGH could be a Fountain of Youth so while not approved by the FDA, we could all end up using HGH in our lifetimes.
I haven't seen any medical journals articles but read internet sites, so use the caution you would normally use with internet sites. Here is affect of HGH I found

What effect does this increase in HGH have on the body?

This is where it gets exciting. While numerous studies have been done on the effects of HGH injections, the most ground breaking study was done by Dr. Rudman and published in the New England Journal of Medicine on July 5, 1990. The journal reported that men who had taken HGH injections had shown a 8.8 percent gain in lean body mass with a 14 percent loss in body fat - without any change in diet or activity! It bears repeating that there was no change in diet or exercise - and the subjects who received HGH injections had a 8.8 percent increase in lean body mass.

If you look at all the studies that have been done on HGH injections you get the following list of benefits:





8.8% increase in muscle mass on average after six months, without exercise
14.4% loss of fat on average after six months, without dieting
Higher energy levels
Enhanced sexual performance
Regrowth of heart, liver, spleen, kidneys and other organs that shrink with age
Greater cardiac output
Superior immune function
Increased exercise performance
Better kidney function
Lowered blood pressure
Improved cholesterol profile, with higher HDL and lower LDL
Stronger bones
Faster wound healing
Younger, tighter, thicker skin
Hair regrowth
Wrinkle removal
Elimination of cellulite
Sharper vision
Mood elevation
Increased memory retention
Improved sleep
(* The above is taken from Grow Young with HGH by Dr. Ronald Klatz)

I bolded the items I thought could help a MLBer.

MRKARNO
03-05-2005, 11:49 AM
i still shake my head over people who still think bonds didn't use steroids. people who think there's just not enough evidence. people who think steroids don't improve hitting (if non-steroidal bonds actually hits 50 hr's in '01 that makes 23 more flyouts reducing his average from .328 to .280 ... good season but hardly ruthian). people who believe he'd still have all those walks even if he wasn't cheating.

a non-steroidal bonds MAY have made the hall without juicing and he may NOT have. there's no way to tell now. one thing is for sure ... he's not an all time great. never was and never will be. bonds lovers take heart. you still have all those records to look at, empty tho they may be.

Shake your head if you must, but I think we have a right to be more careful than we have been in accusing players of steroids. For some of these players, the situation is that people have been accusing them of steroids so many times that it apparently has become truth, without the presence of new evidence. There are other reasons which could realistically explain the increase in homers, including changed swing mechanics, legal supplements, more experience, etc. I just haven't seen enough evidence for me to be able to say that so-and-so (in this case, Bonds) is taking steroids. If you'd like to present some more evidence besides, "His home run totals rose and he's made contact with the Balco people and therefore the only possible explanation is that Balco provided him with steroids that greatly altered his career," then I'd like to see it.

And for all of those who think he may have started taking steroids starting in 2000-2001, I would urge you to look at his statistics before those years, especially if you dont think he would have made the hall of fame otherwise. He would have been a clear-cut hall of famer if he retired after 1999.

idseer
03-05-2005, 12:00 PM
Shake your head if you must, but I think we have a right to be more careful than we have been in accusing players of steroids. For some of these players, the situation is that people have been accusing them of steroids so many times that it apparently has become truth, without the presence of new evidence. There are other reasons which could realistically explain the increase in homers, including changed swing mechanics, legal supplements, more experience, etc. I just haven't seen enough evidence for me to be able to say that so-and-so (in this case, Bonds) is taking steroids. If you'd like to present some more evidence besides, "His home run totals rose and he's made contact with the Balco people and therefore the only possible explanation is that Balco provided him with steroids that greatly altered his career," then I'd like to see it.

And for all of those who think he may have started taking steroids starting in 2000-2001, I would urge you to look at his statistics before those years, especially if you dont think he would have made the hall of fame otherwise. He would have been a clear-cut hall of famer if he retired after 1999.

i have completely given up on trying to make you see the light. you obviously love bonds and will stick by him with a parents zeal even in the face of reality. you would have insisted the world was flat until they shot you into space and you saw it with your own eyes.
you and perhaps a couple others are welcome to your views. it does take all kinds.

MRKARNO
03-05-2005, 12:04 PM
i have completely given up on trying to make you see the light.

Actually, you haven't bothered trying.

I'm not saying that he didn't take steroids. All I'm saying is that we cannot know for sure based on the evidence that has been presented to us. It's easy to go out there and proclaim, "BONDS IS ON THE JUICE!" "BONDS IS A STEROIDS USER!" Sure, that's the easy thing to do. But do we really know? How can we know? It's one thing to believe something based on a circumstantial case, but it's another thing to proclaim it as fact based on that circumstantial evidence.

balke
03-05-2005, 12:12 PM
HGH, protien shakes, steroids. What did it? Yes, probably steroids, the rubbed on steroids that Gary Sheffield took. How long has balco been around? I want to know. I wanna know how long these players have done what they've done, but there's no way of knowing. Now all the average fan has to say is "Bond's never had a Ruthian season, because steroids did it all".

I don't believe that. He has always hit the ball. He's played different roles for different teams, had his stats shift whenever he moved to a different park. Park makes a huge difference, look how many home HR's Pauly hit last season.

I wish I knew what was legal and what wasn't for these players. What can they walk into GNC, buy, and use without people claiming it to be a magical homerun potion?

I've had to take steroids twice in my life for medical reason, and all it did to me was make me fat. Barry Bonds has always been a tough worker, and a gifted athlete. Whatever he took, he has worked hard to keep his body in top physical condition.

Beltran's #'s scream Barry Bonds to me. Beltran is someone who's going to learn how to hit for average, and make more contact in his career. His average will raise, with his Hr count. Someday this could be him. I hope the league has every base covered if it happens, so we don't ever have to go through the name/league smearing campaigns again.


How do we know he hasn't been taking them all along? Do we believe ShamME* when he says he never used the corked bat before the single time it shattered? Do we believe him when he says he it's Flinstone Vitamins? Do we believe the righteous indignation when he refuses Rick Reilly's offer to take him for testing right then and there?

I hate Slowsa w/ the best of them, to me it's much more obvious that he has downed buckets of roids ever since he was a white sox player. Not only could he not hit it far enough on his own, he had to resort to corking his bat so he could gain batspeed once he juiced to get his strength. He has inflated so much, he can't hit a major league fastball. He can't sneeze without pulling a muscle in his back.

That still doesn't make me scream to place the scape on him. The league created Mac and Shammy, Canseco, and Sheff. Some of them are questionable to me as to whether they neeeded the juice (sheffield, bonds, Mac) to be who they were. All are question marks as to how much they took, why did they take it, and when did it start?

This all comes back to MLB, lazy commissioning, a hypocritical fan base, and an overly sensationalized way of viewing this topic (provided by the media).

Have your players pee in a cup. I had to do it for my high school football squad, it wasn't a big deal. They get paid enough that they should earn their money the hard way, just like everyone else.

At this rate, noone can ever surpass Ruth or Aaron w/o accusations of juiced balls, cork, or PED's. Soon we'll blame weight machines for all of this, and every player will have to train by lifting buckets of Rice.

And yes, Bonds said at the most he would tie Aaron, and walk away from the game of baseball. I don't know how racist that is.

idseer
03-05-2005, 12:14 PM
Actually, you haven't bothered trying.

I'm not saying that he didn't take steroids. All I'm saying is that we cannot know for sure based on the evidence that has been presented to us. It's easy to go out there and proclaim, "BONDS IS ON THE JUICE!" "BONDS IS A STEROIDS USER!" Sure, that's the easy thing to do. But do we really know? How can we know? It's one thing to believe something based on a circumstantial case, but it's another thing to proclaim it as fact based on that circumstantial evidence.

actually i have tried tho it was some time ago. after reading your many many replies to others since i have indeed given up now.

and some times circumstancial evidence is all there is to go by. when there's enough of it most reasonable people put the pieces together and come to a conclusion. then there are other people.

balke
03-05-2005, 12:26 PM
And for all of those who think he may have started taking steroids starting in 2000-2001, I would urge you to look at his statistics before those years, especially if you dont think he would have made the hall of fame otherwise. He would have been a clear-cut hall of famer if he retired after 1999.

1999, as I listed above, is when the new left hander friendly ball park was built for the Giants. Bonds doesn't just hit hr's there, he hits them half way into S.F. bay. When he hit 71, he was being pitched to for once in his career. most of his career he's hit a little over a hr/ab. That year he saw multiple at-bats in a game, and made pitchers pay for it. Or perhaps it was those tightly wound balls?. I'm sure he's used Balco in the past 3-4 years to keep his endurance up. I don't think Balco or any steroid made him that big. That's my honest opinion.

And how was this substance presented to players anyways? It wasn't technically a steroid. Someone came to him and said "I have this supplement that is perfectly legal, it is a result of advanced medical engineering. It will do such and such for you, you will have more energy throughout the season. No injections, just a rub on topical cream when you are feeling sore". That is probably the exact sales pitch. I'm sure other players using it recommended it. "No, it's perfectly legal, I feel great. This guy is a doctor, let me give you his #".

That's easily how the drug could've been presented. Again, the league is responsible for staying ahead of technology, and protecting players from these kinds of sales pitches for drugs.

MRKARNO
03-05-2005, 12:42 PM
and some times circumstancial evidence is all there is to go by. when there's enough of it most reasonable people put the pieces together and come to a conclusion. then there are other people.

Well there are reasonable disagreements in this case as to how much circumstantial evidence is to be considered a sufficient amount. There is barely circumstantial evidence available before 2003, a time period which includes the 73 home run season that everyone seems to be using as the central point in their argument that he was definitely taking steroids.

daveeym
03-05-2005, 01:18 PM
All I can say is shame shame shame to Bonds and his defenders, it's really embarrassing.

TomC727
03-05-2005, 03:25 PM
He had a nice power jump in 1999 going forward, look at his ISO power not a counting of home runs. Also he hasn't had a traditional player development curve, which could be results of HGH.

HGH is legal drug when used with a prescitpion and is mostly use to treat Human Growth Hormone Hgh deficiency, and Turner syndrome in children. There is clinical research that HGH could be a Fountain of Youth so while not approved by the FDA, we could all end up using HGH in our lifetimes.
I haven't seen any medical journals articles but read internet sites, so use the caution you would normally use with internet sites. Here is affect of HGH I found


I bolded the items I thought could help a MLBer.
[/size][/font]

1990 is considered ancient in science terms and in recent studies learned about just last year in an endocrinology class, HGH has not been proven to help anyone in terms of growth after puberty. What has been found is poor glucose control and Type 2 Diabetes. This doesn't sound like very good benefits to me. Go back and find some better sources, 1990 doesn't cut it.

Ol' No. 2
03-05-2005, 05:31 PM
Actually, you haven't bothered trying.

I'm not saying that he didn't take steroids. All I'm saying is that we cannot know for sure based on the evidence that has been presented to us. It's easy to go out there and proclaim, "BONDS IS ON THE JUICE!" "BONDS IS A STEROIDS USER!" Sure, that's the easy thing to do. But do we really know? How can we know? It's one thing to believe something based on a circumstantial case, but it's another thing to proclaim it as fact based on that circumstantial evidence.How do we know anything for sure? Maybe we all don't exist. Maybe we're just a dream of some troll in a faraway galaxy.

Get real. There's more than enough evidence to convince anyone who doesn't have his head in the sand.

balke
03-05-2005, 06:03 PM
Leaked testimony, Conti intervews, and a ton of speculation.

Balco isn't even a steroid by definition, so when people say it was illegal, so he was breaking the law, he wasn't. Canseco broke the law. Barry possibly (most likely) took balco.

That still doesn't answer the question of how long did he take it, or how much it helped his career. It doesn't tell how many other substances will still NOT SHOW UP on drug tests provided by the MLB. People can stilll engineer drugs like Balco that are meant to beat the system by not technically being a steroid.

Ol' No. 2
03-05-2005, 06:07 PM
Leaked testimony, Conti intervews, and a ton of speculation.

Balco isn't even a steroid by definition, so when people say it was illegal, so he was breaking the law, he wasn't. Canseco broke the law. Barry possibly (most likely) took balco.

That still doesn't answer the question of how long did he take it, or how much it helped his career. It doesn't tell how many other substances will still NOT SHOW UP on drug tests provided by the MLB. People can stilll engineer drugs like Balco that are meant to beat the system by not technically being a steroid.Nobody asked Ben Johnson how long he was taking it and how much faster it made him. You take it, you're out. No asterisk, either.

balke
03-05-2005, 06:20 PM
Nobody asked Ben Johnson how long he was taking it and how much faster it made him. You take it, you're out. No asterisk, either.
Related link (http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/bt/Qathletics-usa-doping.R7MM_DOM.html)


Remi Korchemney, a 71-year-old Ukrainian living in California, who coaches White and Chambers, challenged the experts.


"They have not proved that this is an anabolic steroid," Korchemney, who coached the Soviet Union's 1972 Olympic champion Valery Borzov, told the San Jose Mercury News.


"I believe it's a look-alike substance. They make these wrong statements without printing out the exact molecular structure and showing it exactly as THG.


"Have they scientifically proven with experiments and double-blind studies that this acts like a steroid? These are stupid people at this lab trying to stir up public opinion."


Korchemney works with Balco which he said gave "excellent service" for supplements and nutritional advice for his athletes.


But the leading American expert in analysis and detection of anabolic steroids, Dr. Don Catlin of the UCLA Olympic Analytical Laboratory, said there was no doubt the molecular structure of THG was that of an anabolic steroid.


"Once you see its chemical structure, you know that it is a steroid," he said. "It is a short jump from gestrinone to THG."


Catlin said THG was the product of a substantial laboratory setup.


He said it would take about a week to manufacture THG.

Its all a debate right now. Noone is dumb enough to publicly endorse a product knowing it will be discovered as an illegal anabolic steroid. All these athletes know is there is a drug out there helping them perform better, that is marketed to be legal, and is currently NOT A STEROID.

TheBull19
03-06-2005, 05:05 PM
Balco isn't even a steroid by definition.

You're right, its the name of a company that supplies steroids.

SweetHereafter
03-08-2005, 01:04 PM
And for all of those who think he may have started taking steroids starting in 2000-2001, I would urge you to look at his statistics before those years, especially if you dont think he would have made the hall of fame otherwise. He would have been a clear-cut hall of famer if he retired after 1999.


Bonds may be a sociopath and a cheater with capital 'C'....But anyone who doesn't think he was well on his way to becoming one of the greatest players of the post-War Era (let alone a "mere" 1st-ballot Hall'er) before he got on the juice 5 years or so ago........SIMPLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE GAME OF BASEBALL. Period.

Dadawg_77
03-09-2005, 10:23 AM
1999, as I listed above, is when the new left hander friendly ball park was built for the Giants. Bonds doesn't just hit hr's there, he hits them half way into S.F. bay. When he hit 71, he was being pitched to for once in his career. most of his career he's hit a little over a hr/ab. That year he saw multiple at-bats in a game, and made pitchers pay for it. Or perhaps it was those tightly wound balls?. I'm sure he's used Balco in the past 3-4 years to keep his endurance up. I don't think Balco or any steroid made him that big. That's my honest opinion.

And how was this substance presented to players anyways? It wasn't technically a steroid. Someone came to him and said "I have this supplement that is perfectly legal, it is a result of advanced medical engineering. It will do such and such for you, you will have more energy throughout the season. No injections, just a rub on topical cream when you are feeling sore". That is probably the exact sales pitch. I'm sure other players using it recommended it. "No, it's perfectly legal, I feel great. This guy is a doctor, let me give you his #".

That's easily how the drug could've been presented. Again, the league is responsible for staying ahead of technology, and protecting players from these kinds of sales pitches for drugs.

Pac Bell was opened March 31, 2000 not in 1999. It has also played like a pitchers park. I have seen it broken down by lefties vs righties and it still is a pitcher park no matter the hand of the batter. The wall in right and wind patterens compenstate for the short distance.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?season=2004

Also it is a players as it is anyone responsibility to know what a person knowingly puts in their body.

The Racehorse
03-09-2005, 10:28 AM
Bonds may be a sociopath and a cheater with capital 'C'....But anyone who doesn't think he was well on his way to becoming one of the greatest players of the post-War Era...

Yeah sure, post Gulf War 1991.

Dadawg_77
03-09-2005, 10:30 AM
How do we know anything for sure? Maybe we all don't exist. Maybe we're just a dream of some troll in a faraway galaxy.

Get real. There's more than enough evidence to convince anyone who doesn't have his head in the sand.

There isn't all there is leaked testimony form a grand jury. Now whoever leaked the testimony had a purpose for the leak. The leak probally came from some FBI agent or US DA who was mad he/she wouldn't get to make his case against Bonds, so knock him around in public with leaks. Other then that all we have is Bonds looks bigger then he did 20 years ago photos, and rumors about hat sizes which I haven't seen confirmed but have seen denied. I don't like twisting facts to support my claims unlike some who see anything and assume it backs what they believe.

AZChiSoxFan
03-09-2005, 11:01 AM
All I can say is shame shame shame to Bonds and his defenders, it's really embarrassing.

Why is it OK for so many people to hate Bonds, yet love "Big Mac"? That's the thing that really gets me. Both did the juice (IMO), but it's OK to hate Bonds because he's surly yet love McGwire because he saved the game in 1998? What a joke. At least have the decency to be consistent.

daveeym
03-09-2005, 11:04 AM
Why is it OK for so many people to hate Bonds, yet love "Big Mac"? That's the thing that really gets me. Both did the juice (IMO), but it's OK to hate Bonds because he's surly yet love McGwire because he saved the game in 1998? What a joke. At least have the decency to be consistent. This thread is on bonds not on Mac, Nobody's defended Mac here anyway, the only reason mac is getting a "pass" is he's 5 years removed from the fricking game he's passe, old news and has about a .01 percent reason because of race.

daveeym
03-09-2005, 11:05 AM
Why is it OK for so many people to hate Bonds, yet love "Big Mac"? That's the thing that really gets me. Both did the juice (IMO), but it's OK to hate Bonds because he's surly yet love McGwire because he saved the game in 1998? What a joke. At least have the decency to be consistent. This thread is on bonds not on Mac, Nobody's defended Mac here anyway, the only reason mac is getting a "pass" is he's 5 years removed from the fricking game he's passe, old news and has about a .01 percent reason because of race.

Stroker Ace
03-09-2005, 11:29 AM
I hate Bonds

balke
03-09-2005, 11:31 AM
Mac is 5 years removed, but never caught .01 percent of the flack Bonds does about this. Sheffield caught less than everyone, and that's disturbing. Giambi is probably second to Bonds though, so I don't know how much race has to do with things, but I do believe it is a small factor.

This thread isn't about either of them, but it is strange we let the historic Big Mac off the hook for the most part for doing steroids, but if people hear historic Bonds' name, it expunges anger and blasphemy.

A lot of that could just be Bonds being one of the straightest shooters, cockiest all-stars, and most hated players in all of sports because of the fact that he's so arrogant. He's not a humble competitor, he's not all smiles. He'll come right out and say outrageous things like he did in this interview. People hate him for it.

A lot like people hate(d) Terrell Owens before he played handicapped in the Superbowl and produced. Maybe fans need a martyr? Some humbled figure who feels shame? IF that's the case, then I don't think Sheffield should be off the hook. Where the hate goes and why... I don't understand. I just know bonds has triple what anyone else has for the use of steroids.

daveeym
03-09-2005, 11:39 AM
Mac is 5 years removed, but never caught .01 percent of the flack Bonds is about this. Sheffield caught less than everyone, and that's disturbing. Giambi is probably second to Bonds though, so I don't know how much race has to do with things, but I do believe it is a small factor. This thread isn't about either of them, but it is strange we let the historic Big Mac off the hook for the most part, but if people hear historic Bonds' name, it expunges anger and blasphemy.

A lot of that could just be Bonds being one of the straightest shooters, cockiest all-stars, and most hated players in all of sports because of it. He's not a humble competitor, he's not all smiles. He'll come right out and say outrageous things like he did in this interview. People hate him for it. A lot like people hate(d) Terrell Owens before he played handicapped in the Superbowl and produced. Maybe fans need a martyr? Some humbled figure who feels shame? IF that's the case, then I don't think Sheffield should be off the hook. Where the hate goes and why... I don't understand. I just know bonds has triple what anyone else has for the use of steroids. Am i going blind or insane or are his posts becoming more and more illegible and incomprehensive as he continues to post? Go and re-edit that so people can intelligently respond. Particularly the first paragraph and last two sentences or so at the end.

If it is just me my apologies in advance.

balke
03-09-2005, 11:45 AM
Is that better? you know I'm a stickler for grammer.

daveeym
03-09-2005, 11:55 AM
Is that better? you know I'm a stickler for grammer.
Much better and I'm not a stickler just was hard to break the thoughts apart. I think when it comes to who deserves what attention, people have selective memories and give more weight to certain things. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with anything in that post other than the weight or credibility you're giving to it. There are pretty obvious reasons why some are getting more crap than others. Those that think thier guy is getting an unfair share are biased and would think that no matter what.

Dadawg_77
03-09-2005, 12:04 PM
A lot of that could just be Bonds being one of the straightest shooters, cockiest all-stars, and most hated players in all of sports because of the fact that he's so arrogant. He's not a humble competitor, he's not all smiles. He'll come right out and say outrageous things like he did in this interview. People hate him for it.

That is it. Mac is a beloved figure while Bonds isn't.

Foulke29
03-09-2005, 12:09 PM
Is that better? you know I'm a stickler for grammer.

I could care less about grammar.

The Racehorse
03-09-2005, 12:28 PM
That is it. Mac is a beloved figure while Bonds isn't.

With me, that's half right... I think they're both crap.

One thing that I don't remember seeing posted in regards to McGwire is his .201 batting average in 1991... nothing like a little help to bring that average up, allegedly.

AZChiSoxFan
03-09-2005, 05:37 PM
That is it. Mac is a beloved figure while Bonds isn't.

That's my point exactly. If you hate Bonds because he's arrogant, then fine. But don't tell me you hate him because he did the juice, then turn around and tell me how much you love McGwire. If you're going to complain about Bonds using steroids, then don't let McGwire off with a free pass.

Stroker Ace
03-12-2005, 01:42 AM
More people would accept Bonds if he wasn't such an ass.