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Foulke29
03-03-2005, 06:16 PM
Who off of the 1919 Chicago White Sox had the potential to go to the Hall, and how many of them were already on the way?

As I see it, I think the team had 6 - maybe 7 that were were HoF material.

Foulke29
03-03-2005, 06:17 PM
Joe Jackson
Eddie Collins
Nemo Leibold
Happy Felsch
Buck Weaver
Ray Scalk
Chick Gandil
Swede Risberg
Fred McMullin
Shano Collins
Byrd Lynn

Foulke29
03-03-2005, 06:20 PM
Eddie Cicotte
Lefty Williams
Dickie Kerr
Red Faber
Grover Lowdermilk
Erskine Mayer
Bill James
Win Noyes
Pat Ragan
Frank Shellenback
Dave Danforth

zach074
03-03-2005, 06:39 PM
.357 batting average and only home run in the series. Shoeless should be allowed into the hall of fame.

Foulke29
03-03-2005, 06:44 PM
.357 batting average and only home run in the series. Shoeless should be allowed into the hall of fame.

As much as it pains me to say it, I disagree. Joe and Cicotte are the only ones to have actually received money. Regardless of how well Jackson did, he still took payment to throw the game. No one else was paid - only promised.

That said, I believe Shoeless Joe should forever be out - but then again, I think his skills and numbers would have gotten him in.

zach074
03-03-2005, 06:49 PM
As much as it pains me to say it, I disagree. Joe and Cicotte are the only ones to have actually received money. Regardless of how well Jackson did, he still took payment to throw the game. No one else was paid - only promised.

That said, I believe Shoeless Joe should forever be out - but then again, I think his skills and numbers would have gotten him in.

Yea but Joe asked to be benched before the series because he knew what was going to happen! He accepted money big deal his stats prove that he did not throw the world series!

Ol' No. 2
03-03-2005, 08:16 PM
Yea but Joe asked to be benched before the series because he knew what was going to happen! He accepted money big deal his stats prove that he did not throw the world series!Actually, they don't. I'll have to find the link for this, but if you recall, they only threw certain games. In games they were trying to win he hit well, but in the others he was awful. His fielding was also suspect in those games.

Edit: I found one Doug Pappas article (http://roadsidephotos.com/baseball/shoelessjoe.htm), but there are others.

The evidence is ambiguous at best. On the one hand, Jackson always swore that he had played to win, and his .375 batting average led both teams. On the other, Jackson hit .250 with one run scored and no RBI in the four thrown games, while batting .500 with four runs and six RBI in the other four. In each of the first two games, both of which were thrown, Jackson allowed a two-out, two-run triple to left field. And even if the evidence that Jackson actually threw the Series is equivocal, the evidence that he was paid to do so is overwhelming. Did Congress truly intend to endorse the receipt of bribes so long as the recipient double-crosses the payer?

zach074
03-03-2005, 08:51 PM
Actually, they don't. I'll have to find the link for this, but if you recall, they only threw certain games. In games they were trying to win he hit well, but in the others he was awful. His fielding was also suspect in those games.

Edit: I found one Doug Pappas article (http://roadsidephotos.com/baseball/shoelessjoe.htm), but there are others.

I never knew that but when a mans last words proclaim his innocent I have to believe him.

Uncle_Patrick
03-03-2005, 10:40 PM
As much as it pains me to say it, I disagree. Joe and Cicotte are the only ones to have actually received money. Regardless of how well Jackson did, he still took payment to throw the game. No one else was paid - only promised.

That said, I believe Shoeless Joe should forever be out - but then again, I think his skills and numbers would have gotten him in.

I thought that Chick Gandil received money. I recall reading a story (or maybe it was theory) that the Sox only threw the 1st game because none of the players received the money they were promised after that game, but it was later believed that Gandil, who was the one who got the players involved with the gamblers, had received the money and simply kept it for himself and told the other players that the gamblers did not pay them.

baseball_fanatic
03-03-2005, 10:45 PM
If Shoeless Joe took the money, which by all accounts say he did, then he should be left out. If he wanted to maintain an appearance of innocence, he should have had nothing to do with the money.

Frank the Tank
03-03-2005, 10:56 PM
I hope NONE of them get put in the Hall of Fame. Although, I eventually think that Pete Rose will get in and it is pretty hard to let him in and not Shoeless Joe. It depresses me to think of how things could be different in this town if the Sox never threw that series. Its not a stretch to assume that the Sox would have been highly competitive for some time and maybe even had a dynasty with multiple world series wins. Would the Sox be the #2 team in this town today if we had a handful of World Series wins by 1930? I don't know how much of it is Charles Comiskey's fault, but the Sox basically sucked for the next 40 years after the players were thrown out of baseball.

White Sox Randy
03-03-2005, 11:07 PM
I hope NONE of them get put in the Hall of Fame. Although, I eventually think that Pete Rose will get in and it is pretty hard to let him in and not Shoeless Joe. It depresses me to think of how things could be different in this town if the Sox never threw that series. Its not a stretch to assume that the Sox would have been highly competitive for some time and maybe even had a dynasty with multiple world series wins. Would the Sox be the #2 team in this town today if we had a handful of World Series wins by 1930? I don't know how much of it is Charles Comiskey's fault, but the Sox basically sucked for the next 40 years after the players were thrown out of baseball.



They sucked for "only" the next 30 years. The White Sox actually had winning records every season from 1951 thru 1967.

The Racehorse
03-04-2005, 03:22 AM
Who off of the 1919 Chicago White Sox had the potential to go to the Hall, and how many of them were already on the way?

As I see it, I think the team had 6 - maybe 7 that were were HoF material.

Potential
*Hap Felsch
*Lefty Williams
*Buck Weaver

On the way
*Eddie Cicotte
*Joe Jackson

In the HOF
Eddie Collins
Ray Schalk
Red Faber

[* banned by KM Landis]

The Racehorse
03-04-2005, 03:34 AM
Some feel that Shoeless Joe should be forever banned because he took money from gamblers... the thing is, both Tris Speaker & Ty Cobb were embroiled in a
gambling scandal in the '20's, but Kensaw Mountain Landis looked the other way... the same baseball commissioner who kept blacks from the major leagues, what a guy!

eastchicagosoxfan
03-04-2005, 06:55 AM
Some feel that Shoeless Joe should be forever banned because he took money from gamblers... the thing is, both Tris Speaker & Ty Cobb were embroiled in a
gambling scandal in the '20's, but Kensaw Mountain Landis looked the other way... the same baseball commissioner who kept blacks from the major leagues, what a guy!

I think a good parallell can be drawn between Cobb and Speaker, and MLB's stance towards steriods the past several years. Cobb and Speaker were huge stars, and although the investigation took place in the late 1920's (1929?), and I think it concerned one game, Landis probably felt the issue wasn't worth publicizing, because the game didn't need a black eye at the time. Selig, and other execs, looked the other way for similar reasons. I'm not condoning it, but it has precedence. Incidentally, Hal Chase gambled on baseball, threw games, etc., and was never banned.

The Racehorse
03-04-2005, 09:13 AM
I think a good parallell can be drawn between Cobb and Speaker, and MLB's stance towards steriods the past several years. Cobb and Speaker were huge stars, and although the investigation took place in the late 1920's (1929?), and I think it concerned one game, Landis probably felt the issue wasn't worth publicizing, because the game didn't need a black eye at the time. Selig, and other execs, looked the other way for similar reasons. I'm not condoning it, but it has precedence. Incidentally, Hal Chase gambled on baseball, threw games, etc., and was never banned.

Here's a take from a blog that is interesting, imo.

More Gambling Inconsistencies: Cobb & Speaker (http://journals.aol.com/bads85/ManyGoFewUnderstand/entries/314)


Baseball's dirty secrets are many. Landis made his name by banning the 8 Black Sox players because they colluded with gamblers, and that action in itself can be easily construed as simply getting his foot in door. The problem with Landis is that his justice was inconsistent. The perfect example of that is his treating players who bet on games differently depending on what political gain was in it for him... talk about blatant hypocrisy.

I agree that there are parallels between gambling & steroids.