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View Full Version : Koch's first ST appearance: painful for some more than others


Baby Fisk
03-03-2005, 10:51 AM
From today's Toronto Star:


Billy Koch’s fastball is back. The control? That’s a different story.

Koch wasn’t the only victim of his 31-pitch struggle in yesterday’s Blue Jays intrasquad game. Home plate umpire Jim Patisi of Tampa had to leave the game shortly after being drilled on the chest protector by a high fastball from Koch that was supposed to have been away to hitter John Ford-Griffin.

Jays pitching coach Brad Arnsberg said Koch was too “amped up” for his first Jays mound action since being traded by Toronto after the 2001 season. Koch yielded five runs – four earned – on five hits and a walk in just a third of an inning.

Arnsberg said Koch didn’t mix in enough change-ups with his fastballs. “Hopefully we don’t see that again this spring.”

Ouch.

spawn
03-03-2005, 10:53 AM
Man, I hope Koch gets it together this year. That's a rough beginning though.

Unregistered
03-03-2005, 11:42 AM
...and here comes the part where Koch says "Hey, I really stunk today - I take all the blame," and everyone talks about what a stand-up guy he is. :rolleyes:

Baby Fisk
03-03-2005, 11:50 AM
...and here comes the part where Koch says "Hey, I really stunk today - I take all the blame," and everyone talks about what a stand-up guy he is. :rolleyes:
It's for that attitude that Koch set himself apart from most other players. Yes, it's too bad that he keeps stinking up the place, but he's not throwing the blame at others. That's why Billy still has a following of sorts around here. No one seems to give a care for Jon Rauch's life and times anymore...

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 11:53 AM
Just put it this way... I'm actually HAPPY with Wilson Valdez. :?:

CubKilla
03-03-2005, 11:55 AM
Botch is done. Has been ever since KW traded Foulke for him. Why do some in baseball not see this?

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 12:01 PM
Botch is done. Has been ever since KW traded Foulke for him. Why do some in baseball not see this?I do. I actually think Koch is the case of a pitcher's career being made by steroids. Where did that 100 MPH fastball go? :?:

The_Cheesiest_Idiot
03-03-2005, 12:08 PM
Where did that 100 MPH fastball go? :?:

IT'S BACK

Unregistered
03-03-2005, 12:11 PM
It's for that attitude that Koch set himself apart from most other players. Yes, it's too bad that he keeps stinking up the place, but he's not throwing the blame at others. That's why Billy still has a following of sorts around here. No one seems to give a care for Jon Rauch's life and times anymore... Well Fisk, sign me up to suit up for your Blue Jays. I'll be the ABSOLUTE BEST team guy on the planet. Every moon shot I give up I'll be damn glad to apologize for so long as I was getting paid at the end of the day. :D:

Koch sucks. The only thing that seperates him from a "jerk who can't pitch", is that he actually realizes it. BFD.

Baby Fisk
03-03-2005, 12:20 PM
Well Fisk, sign me up to suit up for your Blue Jays. I'll be the ABSOLUTE BEST team guy on the planet. Every moon shot I give up I'll be damn glad to apologize for so long as I was getting paid at the end of the day. :D:

Koch sucks. The only thing that seperates him from a "jerk who can't pitch", is that he actually realizes it. BFD.
Okay I admit it! I LOVE BILLY KOCH and those words of passion are tattooed on my arse! Damn you! :cool:

Unregistered
03-03-2005, 12:23 PM
Okay I admit it! I LOVE BILLY KOCH and those words of passion are tattooed on my arse! Damn you! :cool: I KNEW IT!
But seriously, if the Blue Jays are looking - I'm a really crappy pitcher. Great attitude, though. :D:

Flight #24
03-03-2005, 12:48 PM
Well Fisk, sign me up to suit up for your Blue Jays. I'll be the ABSOLUTE BEST team guy on the planet. Every moon shot I give up I'll be damn glad to apologize for so long as I was getting paid at the end of the day. :D:

Koch sucks. The only thing that seperates him from a "jerk who can't pitch", is that he actually realizes it. BFD.

I don't think anyone's saying they want him on the team, but compared to other guys who suck, he's better so people don't hate him. There are tons of guys who go out, suck, and say things like "I wasn't so bad", or "It's hard when the guys don't score for you". Those are the guys that people hate. Koch takes responsibility, so while no one wants him on the team, they don't hate him.

Unlike say.......
:jaime "Hey Billy, remember - just because you gave up a 4-run lead in the 9th doesn't make it your fault - the guys gotta take the blame for not having a 5-run lead!"

Foulke You
03-04-2005, 02:11 PM
I do. I actually think Koch is the case of a pitcher's career being made by steroids. Where did that 100 MPH fastball go? :?:
You have to be kidding me right? Koch was rail thin his whole career and his body has never changed. If he was on roids, he must have been taking the kind that make you a skinny chicken legged pitcher.:?:

Just because a pitcher loses velocity, doesn't mean he took steroids. I attribute Koch's velocity to a used up arm. It takes a lot out of an arm throwing a violent motion that allows you to bring it at 101mph. His last effective year in 2002, Billy pitched a lot of innings and I think by the time he arrived on the White Sox, he just couldn't bring it at that speed anymore. Since he was a thrower and not a pitcher, he got shelled because he couldn't blow it by people anymore. Look at this photo comparison and tell me if his body type looks different:

Here is Billy boy in his 101mph Blue Jays days:
http://www.canoe.ca/BlueJaysRosterContest/koch_billy.html

Here is Billy boy in his 91mph White Sox bust days, I don't see any difference...if anything, he is a bit heavier as a Sox player:
http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/Aff--CONF/CTID--93095113/RFID--447329/TKID--15032680/pd--10097790/posters.htm

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 02:15 PM
You have to be kidding me right? Koch was rail thin his whole career and his body has never changed. If he was on roids, he must have been taking the kind that make you a skinny chicken legged pitcher.:?:

Just because a pitcher loses velocity, doesn't mean he took steroids. I attribute Koch's velocity to a used up arm. It takes a lot out of an arm throwing a violent motion that allows you to bring it at 101mph. His last effective year in 2002, Billy pitched a lot of innings and I think by the time he arrived on the White Sox, he just couldn't bring it at that speed anymore. Since he was a thrower and not a pitcher, he got shelled because he couldn't blow it by people anymore. Look at this photo comparison and tell me if his body type looks different:

Here is Billy boy in his 101mph Blue Jays days:
http://www.canoe.ca/BlueJaysRosterContest/koch_billy.html

Here is Billy boy in his 91mph White Sox bust days, I don't see any difference...if anything, he is a bit heavier as a Sox player:
http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/Aff--CONF/CTID--93095113/RFID--447329/TKID--15032680/pd--10097790/posters.htmNot everyone who takes steroids winds up looking like the Incredible Hulk. It depends on how much you're taking. I've always been very suspicious of Billy Beane trading a guy coming off a 44 SV season for a guy who was clearly struggling and was making more money.

Jabroni
03-04-2005, 03:16 PM
Not everyone who takes steroids winds up looking like the Incredible Hulk. It depends on how much you're taking. I've always been very suspicious of Billy Beane trading a guy coming off a 44 SV season for a guy who was clearly struggling and was making more money.Bingo. There are steroids that are called "cutters" that make you more ripped but still increase muscle strength.

Foulke You
03-04-2005, 04:40 PM
Not everyone who takes steroids winds up looking like the Incredible Hulk. It depends on how much you're taking. I've always been very suspicious of Billy Beane trading a guy coming off a 44 SV season for a guy who was clearly struggling and was making more money.

As far as Beane trading Koch for Foulke goes, I think Beane wanted out of being locked in for two years of Koch and Foulke was on the books for only 2003. Foulke was only making a bit more than Koch and I'm sure Beane was well aware that Foulke was a pitcher while Koch was a thrower. Koch was also coming off a year where despite having 44 saves, he was 11-4. That is a TON of decisions for a closer. It means he blew quite a few saves and was bailed out by his offense and awarded a win. He also had a spectacular blown save against the Twins in the 2002 ALDS in Game 5 which I'm sure helped grease the skids for his departure. He picked up Foulke and then had money to play with in 2004 that he otherwise wouldn't have had. If you look at Beane's history, he never hangs on to closers for long so I wouldn't read that he thought Koch was off the roids so he traded him.

I'm not an expert on roids nor do I think anyone on these boards are, however, Mr. Canseco claims to be. The catchphrase of his book is, "How baseball got big". It isn't "how baseball provided skinny guys who fooled us into thinking they weren't on roids". Canseco says he has a trained expert eye to find guys that are juicing and who am I to dispute that? He did the juice for years and almost all of the guys he named in the book are not of Billy Koch body type, but of the muscular Jason Giambi, I-Rod, Sosa, bodytype. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but in my opinion I would say the likelihood of Koch roiding up seems a stretch to me. Pitchers just lose velocity sometimes. It has happened throughout the game's history. Koch wouldn't be the first pitcher to suddenly start sucking and throwing slower. Loaiza had a great year in 2003 but lost velocity in 2004 and reverted back to his career form. Does that mean he was on roids as well?

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 04:55 PM
As far as Beane trading Koch for Foulke goes, I think Beane wanted out of being locked in for two years of Koch and Foulke was on the books for only 2003. Foulke was only making a bit more than Koch and I'm sure Beane was well aware that Foulke was a pitcher while Koch was a thrower. Koch was also coming off a year where despite having 44 saves, he was 11-4. That is a TON of decisions for a closer. It means he blew quite a few saves and was bailed out by his offense and awarded a win. He also had a spectacular blown save against the Twins in the 2002 ALDS in Game 5 which I'm sure helped grease the skids for his departure. He picked up Foulke and then had money to play with in 2004 that he otherwise wouldn't have had. If you look at Beane's history, he never hangs on to closers for long so I wouldn't read that he thought Koch was off the roids so he traded him.

I'm not an expert on roids nor do I think anyone on these boards are, however, Mr. Canseco claims to be. The catchphrase of his book is, "How baseball got big". It isn't "how baseball provided skinny guys who fooled us into thinking they weren't on roids". Canseco says he has a trained expert eye to find guys that are juicing and who am I to dispute that? He did the juice for years and almost all of the guys he named in the book are not of Billy Koch body type, but of the muscular Jason Giambi, I-Rod, Sosa, bodytype. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but in my opinion I would say the likelihood of Koch roiding up seems a stretch to me. Pitchers just lose velocity sometimes. It has happened throughout the game's history. Koch wouldn't be the first pitcher to suddenly start sucking and throwing slower. Loaiza had a great year in 2003 but lost velocity in 2004 and reverted back to his career form. Does that mean he was on roids as well?Actually, Koch was arbitration-eligible going into 2003. He filed requesting $5.9M, so Oakland could have kept him with only a 1-yr committment for $5.9M. This was less than Foulke was making, so the money argument doesn't wash, which is what makes me suspicious. And whatever you think of Foulke, there's no disputing that he had been struggling. It just doesn't ring true to me that you would trade a proven commodity to take a chance on a Keith Foulke for more money unless there's some other reason.

Also, I wouldn't assume all those decisions are due to blown saves without consulting the game logs. Many could be due to being brought into tie games.

And lastly, Caminiti didn't look like a classic 'roid freak, either. Only the ones who go very heavily wind up looking like that. Unless you believe that only a very few players were doing it, then there were a lot of other taking them that didn't balloon up.

HITMEN OF 77
03-04-2005, 05:20 PM
It's for that attitude that Koch set himself apart from most other players. Yes, it's too bad that he keeps stinking up the place, but he's not throwing the blame at others. That's why Billy still has a following of sorts around here. No one seems to give a care for Jon Rauch's life and times anymore...

I liked Koch, I just wish he could have had a more productive career for the Sox. No other player I know, could go out and lose game after game and take the blame everytime. Koch = Class.

Foulke You
03-04-2005, 07:34 PM
Actually, Koch was arbitration-eligible going into 2003. He filed requesting $5.9M, so Oakland could have kept him with only a 1-yr committment for $5.9M. This was less than Foulke was making, so the money argument doesn't wash, which is what makes me suspicious. And whatever you think of Foulke, there's no disputing that he had been struggling. It just doesn't ring true to me that you would trade a proven commodity to take a chance on a Keith Foulke for more money unless there's some other reason.

Also, I wouldn't assume all those decisions are due to blown saves without consulting the game logs. Many could be due to being brought into tie games.


Let me preface this post by saying I'm not a Beane lover like some here, but I am disputing that Beane dumped Koch because of roids. I believe he did it because he was smart enough to see a good deal there for him and a chance to trade a closer (Koch) who wasn't as good as the numbers showed him to be. Here are some quotes that show what the A's thinking was at the time of the Koch/Foulke trade. Then Assistant A's GM, Paul Depodesta indicated that it was partially done for financial freedom in the future. They also wanted Mark Johnson to take some of the workload off of Ramon Hernandez. Interesting to note, the Sox also sent cash over in the Billy Koch trade. This cash likely played a part in the small market A's willingness to part with their Rolaids Relief Man of the year.

fanball.com had these quotes immediately following the trade:
http://www.fanball.com/article.cfm/ID.995

On Tuesday, the Oakland Athletics sent closer Billy Koch and two minor leaguers to the Chicago White Sox in exchange for reliever Keith Foulke, catcher Mark Johnson, minor league closer Joe Valentine, and cash.

In 2002, Koch became the first pitcher to ever record 10 wins and 40 saves in the same season. He finished the year with an 11-4 record, 44 saves, and a 3.27 ERA. However, Koch was also known for blowing games, including game five of the American League Divisional Series. Koch made $2.35 million plus $150,000 in bonuses in 2002, but he is up for salary arbitration this offseason and the small-market Athletics could not afford to keep him....Athletics’ assistant general manager Paul DePodesta explained Oakland’s side of the deal to ESPN.com, “Short-term, this deal makes sense because we get Foulke and a young, left-handed-hitting catcher. We felt like we needed to get younger at that position, because we've been playing Ramon Hernandez too many games, to the point that he's worn out late in the season. And long-term, for giving up the following two years of Koch [meaning 2004 and 2005], we get Valentine, who's got a good chance to be a back-end pitcher in the major leagues.”

Lastly, in addition to the three players, the Athletics receive cash and potentially two more players. General manager Billy Beane loves having cash, and, if Foulke leaves Oakland after 2003, the Athletics would get two high draft picks as compensation.

From Skip Bayless ESPN Page 2 Article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/041223
In 2002, my computer screen nearly froze when Beane traded Billy Koch for Keith Foulke. What? Koch had won Rolaids Relief Man of the Year, saving 44 games for Beane's division champs.

As a columnist in Chicago, I had watched Foulke twice lose his job as White Sox closer by losing control of his changeup. I told Beane about the nights I'd watched Foulke's batting-practice fastball get blasted like ballplayers on Rush Street. He warned that I had fallen into the typical trap of "taking snapshots" instead of analyzing Foulke's overall numbers.

"They don't lie," Beane said, giving me one of those you-just-don't-get-it smiles that infuriate some Beane-blasting national baseball writers.

Ol' No. 2
03-04-2005, 10:06 PM
Let me preface this post by saying I'm not a Beane lover like some here, but I am disputing that Beane dumped Koch because of roids. I believe he did it because he was smart enough to see a good deal there for him and a chance to trade a closer (Koch) who wasn't as good as the numbers showed him to be. Here are some quotes that show what the A's thinking was at the time of the Koch/Foulke trade. Then Assistant A's GM, Paul Depodesta indicated that it was partially done for financial freedom in the future. They also wanted Mark Johnson to take some of the workload off of Ramon Hernandez. Interesting to note, the Sox also sent cash over in the Billy Koch trade. This cash likely played a part in the small market A's willingness to part with their Rolaids Relief Man of the year.

fanball.com had these quotes immediately following the trade:
http://www.fanball.com/article.cfm/ID.995

On Tuesday, the Oakland Athletics sent closer Billy Koch and two minor leaguers to the Chicago White Sox in exchange for reliever Keith Foulke, catcher Mark Johnson, minor league closer Joe Valentine, and cash.

In 2002, Koch became the first pitcher to ever record 10 wins and 40 saves in the same season. He finished the year with an 11-4 record, 44 saves, and a 3.27 ERA. However, Koch was also known for blowing games, including game five of the American League Divisional Series. Koch made $2.35 million plus $150,000 in bonuses in 2002, but he is up for salary arbitration this offseason and the small-market Athletics could not afford to keep him....Athletics’ assistant general manager Paul DePodesta explained Oakland’s side of the deal to ESPN.com, “Short-term, this deal makes sense because we get Foulke and a young, left-handed-hitting catcher. We felt like we needed to get younger at that position, because we've been playing Ramon Hernandez too many games, to the point that he's worn out late in the season. And long-term, for giving up the following two years of Koch [meaning 2004 and 2005], we get Valentine, who's got a good chance to be a back-end pitcher in the major leagues.”

Lastly, in addition to the three players, the Athletics receive cash and potentially two more players. General manager Billy Beane loves having cash, and, if Foulke leaves Oakland after 2003, the Athletics would get two high draft picks as compensation.

From Skip Bayless ESPN Page 2 Article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/041223
In 2002, my computer screen nearly froze when Beane traded Billy Koch for Keith Foulke. What? Koch had won Rolaids Relief Man of the Year, saving 44 games for Beane's division champs.

As a columnist in Chicago, I had watched Foulke twice lose his job as White Sox closer by losing control of his changeup. I told Beane about the nights I'd watched Foulke's batting-practice fastball get blasted like ballplayers on Rush Street. He warned that I had fallen into the typical trap of "taking snapshots" instead of analyzing Foulke's overall numbers.

"They don't lie," Beane said, giving me one of those you-just-don't-get-it smiles that infuriate some Beane-blasting national baseball writers. I obviously have no way of knowing if Koch was taking anything or not. And I certainly can't read Beane's mind. Maybe Beane just saw someting he liked in Foulke, but it's not like Foulke wasn't also known for blowing saves. And it's hard for me to believe Mark Johnson and Joe Valentine were the lynchpins of the deal. If Koch lost his velocity from overwork, how come he never got it back, even two years later? Even if Koch won his arbitration hearing he was going to make less than Foulke. The primary reason given for the trade was money, and that just doesn't wash, and that makes me suspicious.

Maybe it's just my imagination, but this whole deal just didn't feel right from the start.

idseer
03-04-2005, 10:51 PM
Well Fisk, sign me up to suit up for your Blue Jays. I'll be the ABSOLUTE BEST team guy on the planet. Every moon shot I give up I'll be damn glad to apologize for so long as I was getting paid at the end of the day. :D:

Koch sucks. The only thing that seperates him from a "jerk who can't pitch", is that he actually realizes it. BFD.

well put.

FedEx227
03-05-2005, 09:43 AM
No other player I know, could go out and lose game after game and take the blame everytime. Koch = Class.

Well know other player I know was responsible for blowing game after game.

Koch isn't a standup guy, hes just a realist, he doesn't sugarcoat the fact that all he can do is throw the ball and has no control/speed-change on his ball.

Baby Fisk
03-07-2005, 03:34 PM
As one of the announcers said recapping Saturday's Jays game: "...And Billy Koch came in to do what he does best: HE SERVES UP A THREE RUN BLAST!" Funny stuff. Koch's ST is atrocious so far.

Unregistered
03-07-2005, 03:52 PM
As one of the announcers said recapping Saturday's Jays game: "...And Billy Koch came in to do what he does best: HE SERVES UP A THREE RUN BLAST!" Funny stuff. Koch's ST is atrocious so far. But he's a helluva guy. :wink:

Baby Fisk
03-07-2005, 04:37 PM
But he's a helluva guy. :wink:
heh heh... I was just gonna say... :redface:

CubKilla
03-07-2005, 11:25 PM
As one of the announcers said recapping Saturday's Jays game: "...And Billy Koch came in to do what he does best: HE SERVES UP A THREE RUN BLAST!" Funny stuff. Koch's ST is atrocious so far.

It'd be really funny if I still wasn't stewing over Botch's blows on 06/02/04 and 06/06/04.

Baby Fisk
03-11-2005, 11:55 AM
The 2005 Koch Watch may be nearing its sad conclusion...


Jays shift Batista to bullpen as closer
Veteran Koch unlikely to make roster
Rookie Chacin gets spot in rotation

linky (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1110495015707&call_pageid=970599119419)

WhiteSoxFan84
03-11-2005, 12:58 PM
John Ford-Griffin

I had him in a fantasy sim league! He was supposed to be a STUD but never panned out :(:

Brian26
03-11-2005, 01:02 PM
It'd be really funny if I still wasn't stewing over Botch's blows on 06/02/04 and 06/06/04.

Absolutely f'n brutal. The Seattle Sunday night game on ESPN and then the Oakland afternoon game....all in one week.

Stroker Ace
03-11-2005, 08:02 PM
Botch is done. Has been ever since KW traded Foulke for him. Why do some in baseball not see this?

Yep, Can you say AA closer? I sure can