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View Full Version : Brewers interested in Willie Harris for Wes Helms!


Jabroni
03-02-2005, 06:21 PM
Just reported on ESPN 1000. Bruce Levine says that the Brewers are interested in a Willie Harris for Wes Helms swap. Helms was injured much of 2004 so look at his 2003 numbers.

Wes Helms (2004 stats) (http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=136500&statType=1)
274 AB
.263 AVG
.331 OBP
.361 SLG
4 HR
28 RBI

Wes Helms (2003 stats) (http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=136500&statType=1)
476 AB
.261 AVG
.330 OBP
.450 SLG
23 HR
67 RBI

He can play 3B, 1B, and some LF. Sounds like an insurance plan for Crede.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-02-2005, 06:26 PM
Not exactly a blockbuster deal, but we really lack depth at 3b so it wouldn't be that bad of a deal IMO.

soltrain21
03-02-2005, 06:29 PM
Meh...


Lets get them to throw in a prospect because Willie still has some sort of upside.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 06:30 PM
Meh...


Lets get them to throw in a prospect because Willie still has some sort of upside.Agreed. I would hope we get a prospect throw-in but who knows. :?: Some insurance for Crede would be nice.

Shorty1983
03-02-2005, 06:31 PM
16 errors at 3B in 66 games....not a complete upgrade from Crede defensively

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 06:32 PM
I think Palehose would be happy that we may be bringing Pods' friend here as well. :tongue:

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 06:33 PM
Wow, check out Helms' numbers from 2003...

476 AB
.261 AVG
.331 OBP
.450 SLG
23 HR
67 RBI

I would take that over Crede's numbers. :bandance:

Chisox003
03-02-2005, 06:34 PM
16 errors at 3B in 66 games....not a complete upgrade from Crede defensively

Crede's got a great glove, which isnt the problem

If hes hittin 230 come July, we gotta have someone waiting in the wings...

I wouldnt mind the trade, but I wouldnt be ecstatic about it either

PAPChiSox729
03-02-2005, 06:34 PM
I really would rather see us land a backup infielder and keep Burke around to backup Crede and Pierzynski. I don't know much about Wes Helms...

hosieryofthegods
03-02-2005, 06:37 PM
Just what we need a chubby 3b, who can't run, can't hit, and can't field. Great, where do we sign up. I'll keep Crede. If it's any indication from today, Fields will be here to start the season anyway. Not to mention if you're going to get anything for Willie it should be a middle if, not another corner guy.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 06:39 PM
Just what we need a chubby 3b, who can't run, can't hit, and can't field. Great, where do we sign up. I'll keep Crede. If it's any indication from today, Fields will be here to start the season anyway.Crede can't run or hit. He has a better glove but Helms has a better bat. When Helms played a full season in 2003, he had 19 errors. Crede had 12 errors last season. So it's a tradeoff I guess. Crede has a better glove, Helms has a better bat, and neither of them can run. :tongue: If we make this trade, either Wilson Valdez or Pablo Osuna will be on the opening day roster. We still need a backup for SS and 2B.

The Brewers must want to go with the whiffmaster Russell Branyan at 3B.

gobears1987
03-02-2005, 06:48 PM
I guess the Brewers want someone who can steal the 70 bases Pods will no longer steal for them.

Chisox003
03-02-2005, 06:52 PM
I guess the Brewers want someone who can steal the 70 bases Pods will no longer steal for them.

:tealpolice:

Edit: My 200th post was a call to the teal police! :o:

DickAllen72
03-02-2005, 06:52 PM
Just reported on ESPN 1000. Bruce Levine says that the Brewers are interested in Willie Harris for Wes Helms. Helms was injured much of 2004 so look at his 2003 numbers.

(snip)

He can play 3B, 1B, and LF. Sounds like an insurance plan for Crede.

No thanks.

soxfan26
03-02-2005, 06:53 PM
I guess the Brewers want someone who can steal the 70 bases Pods will no longer steal for them.


Oh, my eyes! :cower:

Try this instead...

:tealtutor:

mcfish
03-02-2005, 06:53 PM
Just reported on ESPN 1000. Bruce Levine says that the Brewers are interested in Willie Harris for Wes Helms. Helms was injured much of 2004 so look at his 2003 numbers.

Wes Helms (2004 stats) (http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=136500&statType=1)
274 AB
.263 AVG
.331 OBP
.361 SLG
4 HR
28 RBI

Wes Helms (2003 stats) (http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=136500&statType=1)
476 AB
.261 AVG
.331 OBP
.450 SLG
23 HR
67 RBI

He can play 3B, 1B, and LF. Sounds like an insurance plan for Crede. Wow, check out Helms' numbers from 2003...

476 AB
.261 AVG
.331 OBP
.450 SLG
23 HR
67 RBI

I would take that over Crede's numbers. :bandance:Did you just make a post to agree with yourself?

santo=dorf
03-02-2005, 06:55 PM
I guess the Brewers want someone who can steal the 70 bases Pods will no longer steal for them.

:tealpolice: :tealtutor:

Will the Brewers give us Ben Sheets if we toss in Crede and Borchard?

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 06:55 PM
Just what we need a chubby 3b, who can't run, can't hit, and can't field. Great, where do we sign up. I'll keep Crede. If it's any indication from today, Fields will be here to start the season anyway. Not to mention if you're going to get anything for Willie it should be a middle if, not another corner guy.By the way, name some 3rd basemen that are actually fast. :?:
Did you just make a post to agree with yourself?I obviously re-edited my first post with the new stats. :wink:

Cubbiesuck13
03-02-2005, 06:57 PM
We need a backup SS who can also play 3B. We don't need a 3B who can't play SS. I hope they don't do this...

chisoxfan79
03-02-2005, 06:59 PM
We need a veteran middle infielder to come off of the bench that can play 3b ss and 2b not a gut who could only play third and first. So I say no to that trade.

itsnotrequired
03-02-2005, 07:01 PM
We need a veteran middle infielder to come off of the bench that can play 3b ss and 2b not a gut who could only play third and first. So I say no to that trade.

I agree. Unless a prospect is thrown in there, the trade doesn't look good. Especially since I think Pods will light a fire under Willie on the base paths.

zach074
03-02-2005, 07:03 PM
I wouldn't do this trade. I still think Willie will be a good player for us. This year is Willie's year.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-02-2005, 07:03 PM
Meh, the more I think about it I'd rather just keep Willie. Having better numbers than Crede isn't exactly saying much, especially when Helms' numbers are pretty horrible as well.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 07:05 PM
Meh, the more I think about it I'd rather just keep Willie. Having better numbers than Crede isn't exactly saying much, especially when Helms' numbers are pretty horrible as well.Yeah, you're right. I just looked at Helm's career numbers and they are worse than Crede's. Unless we are getting a decent prospect, this trade doesn't look very good. We already have Wes Helms on our team and his name is Joe Crede. :tongue:

Kenny and Ozzie must not think too highly of Willie though. They seem to want to get rid of him in a bad way.

PAPChiSox729
03-02-2005, 07:07 PM
I wouldn't do this trade. I still think Willie will be a good player for us. This year is Willie's year.

I really think that Willie will end ST elsewhere. With the signing of Iguchi and now involving Harris in trade talks, I really don't think that the Sox see Willie as a part of their future (nor do Willie see the Sox in his own future). I just hope we get a decent backup infielder in return because Willie should be a solid 2B for years to come.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-02-2005, 07:10 PM
Yeah, you're right. I just looked at Helm's career numbers and they are worse than Crede's. Unless we are getting a decent prospect, this trade doesn't look very good. We already have Wes Helms on our team and his name is Joe Crede. :tongue:

Kenny and Ozzie must not think too highly of Willie though. They seem to want to get rid of him in a bad way.
Helms' best season was in 2003, just like Joe Crede's best season. They both hit .261 as well that year, with Crede having a few more RBIs, and Helms having a few more HRs.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 07:11 PM
I really think that Willie will end ST elsewhere. With the signing of Iguchi and now involving Harris in trade talks, I really don't think that the Sox see Willie as a part of their future (nor do Willie see the Sox in his own future). I just hope we get a decent backup infielder in return because Willie should be a solid 2B for years to come.Agreed. Willie is as good as gone IMO. I just wish we would have gotten Keith Ginter from the Brewers for Willie before he went to the A's. That guy would have been the ideal backup for Crede and Iguchi.

chisoxfan79
03-02-2005, 07:11 PM
Especially since I think Pods will light a fire under Willie on the base paths.

It is going to be hard for Willie to steal bases from the bench.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 07:13 PM
Helms' best season was in 2003, just like Joe Crede's best season. They both hit .261 as well that year, with Crede having a few more RBIs, and Helms having a few more HRs.Helms' OBP was better though. Crede's OPB was .308 in 2003 while Helms' OBP was .330.

MUsoxfan
03-02-2005, 07:13 PM
It is going to be hard for Willie to steal bases from the bench.

Exactly. Willie is pretty worthless on the bench and he's only fooling himself if he thinks he can win a starting spot on this team. He can go play everyday and not steal bases for Milwaukee

Palehose13
03-02-2005, 07:14 PM
I think Palehose would be happy that we may be bringing Pods' friend here as well. :tongue:

Hmmmmmm...no thanks.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 07:15 PM
I'm getting scared that Kenny has the intention of acquiring Wes Helms to be our starting 1st baseman for next season and dumping Konerko. Of course, this is just speculation and I am probably just being ridiculous. :wink:

But we still do need a righty bat off the bench.
Exactly. Willie is pretty worthless on the bench and he's only fooling himself if he thinks he can win a starting spot on this team. He can go play everyday and not steal bases for Milwaukee:)

chisoxfan79
03-02-2005, 07:22 PM
I'm getting scared that Kenny has the intention of acquiring Wes Helms to be our starting 1st baseman for next season and dumping Konerko. Of course, this is just speculation and I am probably just being ridiculous. :wink:
:)
I quit if that happens:angry:

Banix12
03-02-2005, 07:24 PM
This trade makes no sense for either team.

First the brewers already have Willie Harris-esqe player, his name is Junior Spivey.

Second, Brewers have three second basemen on the roster already in Spivey, Bill Hall, and prospect Rickie Weeks. They also have AAA 2nd baseman Trent Durrington hanging around as well.

Third, while the sox could use a veteran backup 3rd baseman in the organization, they don't have a major league roster spot to spend on a backup who just plays 3rd (we don't need anymore reserve outfielders and 1st basemen, so I don't care if he plays those postions). Helms likely won't accept a trip to the minors.

The need for a backup middle infielder is much more important. Now if they would give us Spivey for the cheaper Willie Harris, that would make a bit more sense.

NonetheLoaiza
03-02-2005, 07:29 PM
Willie must have fallen off of Kenny's 3 year board, or whatever it was...

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 07:31 PM
I think if Kenny makes this move it's because he's not impressed with the way Crede's swing has looked in camp. KW doesn't want another black hole in the lineup this year. And since Josh Fields won't be ready yet, we will need someone to replace Crede at 3B for this year and next incase he's a bust once again.

mdep524
03-02-2005, 07:34 PM
This trade makes no sense for either team.

First the brewers already have Willie Harris-esqe player, his name is Junior Spivey.

Second, Brewers have three second basemen on the roster already in Spivey, Bill Hall, and prospect Rickie Weeks. They also have AAA 2nd baseman Trent Durrington hanging around as well.

Third, while the sox could use a veteran backup 3rd baseman in the organization, they don't have a major league roster spot to spend on a backup who just plays 3rd (we don't need anymore reserve outfielders and 1st basemen, so I don't care if he plays those postions). Helms likely won't accept a trip to the minors.

The need for a backup middle infielder is much more important. Now if they would give us Spivey for the cheaper Willie Harris, that would make a bit more sense.
Ehh, I am against this move, for most of the reasons Banix has here. It is cool that the Sox have Willie, Adkins and to some extent (if he looks good this spring) Borchard expendable to make a trade if the need arises.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 07:40 PM
Now if they would give us Spivey for the cheaper Willie Harris, that would make a bit more sense.Why would that make more sense? Spivey doesn't play SS, only 2B, and he's not that much better than Willie. Spivey also costs more than Willie. He does have a bit of a better bat than Willie though. At least Helms could backup Crede at 3B.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 07:58 PM
Apparently, Helms isn't fat anymore. He lost alot of poundage over the offseason...

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&id=6080
Latest News Feb. 24, 2005 - 3:46 am et

Wes Helms reported to camp at 226 pounds, down 15 pounds from last February.
''He looks great,'' manager Ned Yost said. ''He has more mobility and quickness. Everything I saw out there today was as good as I've ever seen him do it.'' Based on their past history, it's a safe guess that Yost would like to see Helms win the starting job at third base. Helms will compete with Russell Branyan and Jeff Cirillo.

Source: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brew/feb05/304258.asp)6'4", 226 pounds doesn't sound fat to me. That could help his defense at 3B. Keep in mind that Kenny wants a right-handed bat for the bench and Wilson Valdez can backup both SS and 2B.

Many of you guys seem to hate Willie, yet you think he has such great trade value. What gives?

Lip Man 1
03-02-2005, 09:01 PM
Do the deal, at least get something for Harris who is totally useless. As mentioned you can't steal bases (not that Harris ever could, after all he said he was afraid to run...) from the bench.

Lip

OEO Magglio
03-02-2005, 09:04 PM
Do the deal, at least get something for Harris who is totally useless. As mentioned you can't steal bases (not that Harris ever could, after all he said he was afraid to run...) from the bench.

Lip
If we're going to trade Willie we should get a real utility guy who can play short also.

mcfish
03-02-2005, 09:09 PM
Many of you guys seem to hate Willie, yet you think he has such great trade value. What gives?I've been asking that same question all offseason man. :?:

SABRSox
03-02-2005, 09:09 PM
No way. Helms is due $2.7mil next year. Let Milwaukee keep that bad contract. I'd rather have Willie do little and cost little.

slavko
03-02-2005, 09:10 PM
Many of you guys seem to hate Willie, yet you think he has such great trade value. What gives?

That's known in scientific circles as the WSI paradox. You may also have noticed that other teams' bozos are always higher rated at WSI than our own bozos.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 09:11 PM
If we're going to trade Willie we should get a real utility guy who can play short also.If we DID trade Willie for Helms, Wilson Valdez would likely make the opening day roster and back up SS and 2B.
No way. Helms is due $2.7mil next year. Let Milwaukee keep that bad contract. I'd rather have Willie do little and cost little.That's why I was thinking Helms may be Kenny's fall-back plan for 1B next season incase Konerko tests free agency. I hope that if we do trade for Helms that this isn't the reason.

soxtalker
03-02-2005, 09:16 PM
Helms doesn't excite me. We're trying to win with pitching and defense, so Helms' poorer defense is a big negative. I'd say wait on trading Willie. There will be other deals later in the spring. I'd much rather get a good prospect from a team that decides in ST that it needs a 2B right now.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 09:18 PM
Helms doesn't excite me. We're trying to win with pitching and defense, so Helms' poorer defense is a big negative. I'd say wait on trading Willie. There will be other deals later in the spring. I'd much rather get a good prospect from a team that decides in ST that it needs a 2B right now.Well, Willie has a chance to juice up his trade value a bit. He's starting at 2B tomorrow against the D-Backs. I'm sure other team's scouts will be there like they were today to watch Adkins.

mantis1212
03-02-2005, 09:19 PM
No way. Helms is due $2.7mil next year. Let Milwaukee keep that bad contract. I'd rather have Willie do little and cost little.

What in the... at first this trade sounded interesting but not with this peice of info

OEO Magglio
03-02-2005, 09:32 PM
If we DID trade Willie for Helms, Wilson Valdez would likely make the opening day roster and back up SS and 2B.
That's why I was thinking Helms may be Kenny's fall-back plan for 1B next season incase Konerko tests free agency. I hope that if we do trade for Helms that this isn't the reason.
Yes, but I think I'd rather just keep Burke instead of trading for Helms.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 09:34 PM
Yes, but I think I'd rather just keep Burke instead of trading for Helms.Good point. Burke can play C and 3B and he's been a good contact hitter for us. He obviously doesn't have Helms' power but he's still been a good bat off the bench for us.

Banix12
03-02-2005, 09:37 PM
Frankly I doubt the Brewers trade to get Willie, they just don't need him. I think the Brewers are pretty confident Rickie Weeks is ready, since they traded Keith Ginter to the A's. And as I stated earlier Spivey is just sitting around there to backup Weeks. They don't need Willie as a Centerfielder either cause Brady Clark looks ready to take the everyday job.

Even with the addition of Carlos Lee the Brewers need power hitters more than guys like willie. So if Wes Helms has his stuff back from O3' they would be more interested in keeping him than trading him. I don't think the Brewers see Russ Branyan as a long term solution and the other 3rd base options they have in spring training don't have a lot of pop.

D. TODD
03-02-2005, 09:41 PM
Not interested in that swap AT ALL!

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 09:49 PM
If Helms could repeat his 2003 performance, I'd rather have him at 3B than Crede. :(:

SoxxoS
03-02-2005, 09:54 PM
Everyone who isn't in favor of this swap...WILLIE HARRIS SUCKS. He can't hit. He is fast, but you don't see it on the basepaths because he has no instincts. He can only play one position and pinch run.

If KW has done the homework on Helms, I trust he will make the right move.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-02-2005, 09:57 PM
You are right about KW doing his homework. He always seems to do well in these smaller sized deal. A few years ago with the Guerrier(?) for Marte swap during ST and then last offseason with the Miles for Uribe trade.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 09:59 PM
You are right about KW doing his homework. He always seems to do well in these smaller sized deal. A few years ago with the Guerrier(?) for Marte swap during ST and then last offseason with the Miles for Uribe trade.Yep, both turned out to be great deals for us.

JB98
03-02-2005, 10:19 PM
If we DID trade Willie for Helms, Wilson Valdez would likely make the opening day roster and back up SS and 2B.
That's why I was thinking Helms may be Kenny's fall-back plan for 1B next season incase Konerko tests free agency. I hope that if we do trade for Helms that this isn't the reason.

Helms is Kenny's fall-back plan for 1B? I don't think so, unless you can tell me why Helms is a better option that Gload.

I thought we were trying to get away from one-dimensional, right-handed power hitters that strike out too much. We don't need Wes Helms. I don't like Willie Harris, but I'd rather keep him than trade for Helms.

Banix12
03-02-2005, 10:25 PM
If Helms could repeat his 2003 performance, I'd rather have him at 3B than Crede. :(:

So you'd like an extra 50 strikeouts a season and worse defense while only gaining about 2 Hrs a season, .020 points in avg, and an extra 2 million dollars in salary?

I'd rather give Crede a final shot to work his way out of it. I think you have to go by what a player has done lately. Even though Crede had a bad 2004, his 2004 was better than Helms. Crede's bad 2004 is really only a little bit worse than Helms good 2003 anyway.

JB98
03-02-2005, 10:27 PM
So you'd like an extra 50 strikeouts a season and worse defense while only gaining about 2 Hrs a season, .020 points in avg, and an extra 2 million dollars in salary?

I'd rather give Crede a final shot to work his way out of it. I think you have to go by what a player has done lately. Even though Crede had a bad 2004, his 2004 was better than Helms. Crede's bad 2004 is really only a little bit worse than Helms good 2003 anyway.

I'm with you. I say we ride the storm out with Crede until Fields is ready. IMO, Crede should be batting ninth in the lineup. If he gives us 20 HR and 70 RBI from that spot and plays his usual good defense, I can live with it at the bottom of the order.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 10:30 PM
So you'd like an extra 50 strikeouts a season and worse defense while only gaining about 2 Hrs a season, .020 points in avg, and an extra 2 million dollars in salary?

I'd rather give Crede a final shot to work his way out of it. I think you have to go by what a player has done lately. Even though Crede had a bad 2004, his 2004 was better than Helms. Crede's bad 2004 is really only a little bit worse than Helms good 2003 anyway.Joe Crede's best year (2003) (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=150317&statType=1)
536 AB
.261 AVG
.308 OBP
.433 SLG
19 HR
75 RBI
32 BB
75 SO

Wes Helms' best year (2003) (http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=136500&statType=1)
476 AB
.261 AVG
.330 OBP
.450 SLG
23 HR
67 RBI
43 BB
131 SO

Helms strikes out more than Crede but he has more power and he gets on base more. I'd rather have Helms' ~.330 OBP and extra power than Crede's ~.300 OBP and less strikeouts but you are right, the difference isn't worth an extra $2 million.

JB98
03-02-2005, 10:36 PM
Crede's best year (2003) (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=150317&statType=1)
536 AB
.261 AVG
.308 OBP
.433 SLG
19 HR
75 RBI
32 BB
75 SO

Helms' best year (2003) (http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=136500&statType=1)
476 AB
.261 AVG
.330 OBP
.450 SLG
23 HR
67 RBI
43 BB
131 SO

Helms strikes out more than Crede but he has more power and he gets on base more. I'd rather have Helms' ~.330 OBP and extra power than Crede's ~.300 OBP and less strikeouts but you are right, the difference isn't worth an extra $2 million.

It's questionable to say Helms has more power. Helms' best year is 23 HR? Well, Crede had 19 two years ago and 21 last year. I think that's pretty close. There's not much question Crede is a far superior defender. The Sox have been one of the worst defensive clubs in the A.L. over the course of the last 10 years or so. I think this year's group has the potential to be much better in that regard. Why replace Crede with a beer-league-style player like Helms? We need to catch the ground balls that Buerhle and Garland throw.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 10:43 PM
It's questionable to say Helms has more power. Helms' best year is 23 HR? Well, Crede had 19 two years ago and 21 last year. I think that's pretty close. There's not much question Crede is a far superior defender. The Sox have been one of the worst defensive clubs in the A.L. over the course of the last 10 years or so. I think this year's group has the potential to be much better in that regard. Why replace Crede with a beer-league-style player like Helms? We need to catch the ground balls that Buerhle and Garland throw.I don't doubt that Helms has more power after watching some video clips of him. Keep in mind that Helms had 23 homeruns in 2003 with 60 less at bats than Crede. He is obviously not as good defensively at 3B as Crede is but Helms has a better arm. He actually has a cannon of an arm. Keep in mind that I never said I would want to replace Crede with Helms at 3B, I just said I would rather have his numbers than Crede's. I wouldn't mind having Helms as a righty bat off the bench either. What purpose will Willie serve if Iguchi is starting full-time at 2B? We have enough lefty bats on the bench as it is. Willie would basically be a pinch runner/defensive replacement at that point. Helms would at least give us a nice righty power bat off the bench and someone that could backup Crede. Remember that Ozzie seems to love Wilson Valdez and he can backup SS AND 2B.

JB98
03-02-2005, 10:46 PM
I don't doubt that Helms has more power after watching some video clips of him. He is obviously not as good defensively at 1B as Crede is but Helms has a better arm. He actually has a cannon of an arm. Keep in mind that I never said I would want to replace Crede with Helms at 3B, I just said I would rather have his numbers than Crede's. I wouldn't mind having Helms as a righty bat off the bench either. What purpose will Willie serve if Iguchi is starting full-time at 2B? We have enough lefty bats on the bench as it is. Willie would basically be a pinch runner/defensive replacement at that point. Helms would at least give us a nice righty power bat off the bench and someone that could backup Crede.

Don't you think we need someone who can pinch run? I do, especially given the presence of Big Frank, PK and AJ on this team.

hosieryofthegods
03-02-2005, 10:48 PM
By the way, name some 3rd basemen that are actually fast. :?:
I obviously re-edited my first post with the new stats. :wink:

Mora, Beltre, Freel, Mackowiak, and Batista all have decent speed. I didn't say fast though, I said "could run". Not to mention A-Rod:wink: who's pretty quick.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 10:48 PM
Don't you think we need someone who can pinch run? I do, especially given the presence of Big Frank, PK and AJ on this team.Wilson Valdez can pinch run and back up 2B and SS. He's just not a good hitter. But then again, neither is Willie. He can only hit righties. Timo can pinch run as well.
Mora, Beltre, Freel, Mackowiak, and Batista all have decent speed. I didn't say fast though, I said "could run". Not to mention A-Rod:wink: who's pretty quick.Notice that most of those guys are all "super-sub" type players.

hosieryofthegods
03-02-2005, 10:50 PM
Meh, the more I think about it I'd rather just keep Willie. Having better numbers than Crede isn't exactly saying much, especially when Helms' numbers are pretty horrible as well.

That's exactly what I thought right away. His #'s aren't much better than Crede if at all...so with D included, I would rather keep Crede and Harris.

Banix12
03-02-2005, 10:50 PM
It's questionable to say Helms has more power. Helms' best year is 23 HR? Well, Crede had 19 two years ago and 21 last year. I think that's pretty close. There's not much question Crede is a far superior defender. The Sox have been one of the worst defensive clubs in the A.L. over the course of the last 10 years or so. I think this year's group has the potential to be much better in that regard. Why replace Crede with a beer-league-style player like Helms? We need to catch the ground balls that Buerhle and Garland throw.

Let's not forget that Helms struggled all last season with a knee injury.

Crede's younger and cheaper and can put up similar power numbers. If Helms can't beat out Branyan he might be released from the Brewers anyway.

Harris has some trade value and he's worth more than Helms. On another team, say a moneyball style team where he won't be asked to steal bases, his .340 OBP and good defense would be rather valuable.

FightingBillini
03-02-2005, 10:50 PM
Don't you think we need someone who can pinch run? I do, especially given the presence of Big Frank, PK and AJ on this team.

Willie certainly can't pinch run. He has no baserunning instincts. I think KW will move Harris, and that it why he resigned Timo. Timo is our best baserunner, and I think he will see a lot of late inning PR opportunities this year.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 10:53 PM
Harris has some trade value and he's worth more than Helms. On another team, say a moneyball style team where he won't be asked to steal bases, his .340 OBP and good defense would be rather valuable.The A's already have a better option than Willie and he has a .344 career OBP -- Keith Ginter (http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=348562). I'm not sure what other "moneyball style" teams there are out there though.
Willie certainly can't pinch run. He has no baserunning instincts. I think KW will move Harris, and that it why he resigned Timo. Timo is our best baserunner, and I think he will see a lot of late inning PR opportunities this year.Yep. People seem to forget that despite Willie having all the speed in the world he is not a good base-runner, let alone base-stealer.

JoseCanseco6969
03-02-2005, 11:08 PM
I don't doubt that Helms has more power after watching some video clips of him. Keep in mind that Helms had 23 homeruns in 2003 with 60 less at bats than Crede. He is obviously not as good defensively at 3B as Crede is but Helms has a better arm. He actually has a cannon of an arm. Keep in mind that I never said I would want to replace Crede with Helms at 3B, I just said I would rather have his numbers than Crede's. I wouldn't mind having Helms as a righty bat off the bench either. What purpose will Willie serve if Iguchi is starting full-time at 2B? We have enough lefty bats on the bench as it is. Willie would basically be a pinch runner/defensive replacement at that point. Helms would at least give us a nice righty power bat off the bench and someone that could backup Crede. Remember that Ozzie seems to love Wilson Valdez and he can backup SS AND 2B.

geeez jabroni, i think you have half of the posts in this thread alone! relax buddy. :D:
I think we need to dump willie but not for this guy. Too much $$ and not enough production at the positions he plays. We have an overabundance of outfielders and a couple to play 1st. Trade Willie for a decent prospect and save the cash for a midseason pickup.

Banix12
03-02-2005, 11:12 PM
The A's already have a better option than Willie and he has a .344 career OBP -- Keith Ginter (http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=348562). I'm not sure what other "moneyball style" teams there are out there though.

As I recall Boston and Theo Epstein are at advocates of the moneyball ethic and could use Willie as a backup to Mark Bellhorn, or starting Willie and moving Bellhorn back to the Utility Role. I don't think they really have a backup second baseman now that Pokey Reese is gone.

Toronto is one too I think but they have quite a few 2b.

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 11:33 PM
As I recall Boston and Theo Epstein are at advocates of the moneyball ethic and could use Willie as a backup to Mark Bellhorn, or starting Willie and moving Bellhorn back to the Utility Role. I don't think they really have a backup second baseman now that Pokey Reese is gone.

Toronto is one too I think but they have quite a few 2b.Boston already has lefty Ramon Vazquez to backup 2B and SS. Toronto has Orlando Hudson, Frank Menechino, and Russ Adams to play 2B. The only team I can think of off the top of my head that could want Willie is St. Louis so they could platoon him with righty Mark Grudzielanek at 2B.

By the way, no team in their right mind would bench Mark Bellhorn for Willie Harris.

SoxxoS
03-02-2005, 11:41 PM
I would just like to reiterate at this point in the thread that Joe Crede defense is overrated.

It's decent, not gold glove caliber, IMO. Let's not get crazy.

Banix12
03-02-2005, 11:51 PM
I would just like to reiterate at this point in the thread that Joe Crede defense is overrated.

It's decent, not gold glove caliber, IMO. Let's not get crazy.

Point taken but he's still better defensively than Wes Helms.

mcfish
03-03-2005, 12:03 AM
Willie certainly can't pinch run. He has no baserunning instincts. I think KW will move Harris, and that it why he resigned Timo. Timo is our best baserunner, and I think he will see a lot of late inning PR opportunities this year.Podsednik is our best baserunner, but if you're talking about off the bench then I guess it could be Timo.

Banix12
03-03-2005, 12:04 AM
Boston already has lefty Ramon Vazquez to backup 2B and SS. Toronto has Orlando Hudson, Frank Menechino, and Russ Adams to play 2B. The only team I can think of off the top of my head that could want Willie is St. Louis so they could platoon him with righty Mark Grudzielanek at 2B.

By the way, no team in their right mind would bench Mark Bellhorn for Willie Harris.


The Grudz idea isn't bad. As for Bellhorn, if he reverts to his 2003 form who knows what can happen to him. He might just be the offensive version of Steve Trachsel, one year on, one year off. I like him though so I hope he does well.

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 12:08 AM
The Grudz idea isn't bad. As for Bellhorn, if he reverts to his 2003 form who knows what can happen to him. He might just be the offensive version of Steve Trachsel, one year on, one year off. I like him though so I hope he does well.The reason Bellhorn is valuable is because of his OBP. Even if he hits for a low average and strikes out alot, he also draws alot of walks.

FightingBillini
03-03-2005, 01:03 AM
Podsednik is our best baserunner, but if you're talking about off the bench then I guess it could be Timo.

Yeah, I meant off the bench. Pods will starting, so I wouldn't expect him to get any pinch run opportunities. Timo isnt the fastest, but he is a very good baserunner. Timo wont get a start but probably once a month, so I expect Ozzie to pinch run Timo in the late innings of close games. The moment that epitomizes Timo is the game against the Cubs when he drop Zambrano nuts. After throwing to first a bunch of times and throwing a fit, Zambrano finally threw to home and served up a homer. It takes a good, confident baserunner to pull that off.

DSpivack
03-03-2005, 01:52 AM
Wilson Valdez can pinch run and back up 2B and SS. He's just not a good hitter. But then again, neither is Willie. He can only hit righties. Timo can pinch run as well.
Notice that most of those guys are all "super-sub" type players.

:?:

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 01:59 AM
:?:Beltre and Batista (started as a SS) have above average speed for 3rd basemen but Mora, Freel, and Mackowiak are not all natural 3rd basemen. Those three guys play multiple positions. There's not that many true 3rd basemen that have much speed (i.e. Crede, Rolen, Ramirez).

fquaye149
03-03-2005, 03:11 AM
So you'd like an extra 50 strikeouts a season and worse defense while only gaining about 2 Hrs a season, .020 points in avg, and an extra 2 million dollars in salary?

I'd rather give Crede a final shot to work his way out of it. I think you have to go by what a player has done lately. Even though Crede had a bad 2004, his 2004 was better than Helms. Crede's bad 2004 is really only a little bit worse than Helms good 2003 anyway.

EXACTLY - I watch the brewers, like PH13 and we could probably both tell you that Helms is MURDER at third base - is brutal with the glove - those 16 E only BEGIN to tell the story. There's a reason Branyan is playing, and it ain't just cuz he's younger.

Plus those phenomenal 2003 stats of Helms aren't really that much of an upgrade from Joe - the power numbers are almost identical. so to add .020 points of BA/OBP we get rid of someone who is young and figures to benefit at least a little from Rock's tutelage and be able to come off the bench and run in late game situations?

I know we hate Harris because he can't hit lefties and was afraid to run halfway through last year but COME ON.

HELMS IS NOT ANY GOOD.

Jjav829
03-03-2005, 07:57 AM
Beltre and Batista (started as a SS) have above average speed for 3rd basemen but Mora, Freel, and Mackowiak are not all natural 3rd basemen. Those three guys play multiple positions. There's not that many true 3rd basemen that have much speed (i.e. Crede, Rolen, Ramirez).

Rolen isn't that slow. He's not Pods-fast, but he's not Crede-slow. He can run for someone of his size.

infohawk
03-03-2005, 09:09 AM
I took a look at Helms stats, especially his 3-year splits. I wasn't very impressed. He hits a little better than Joe, but not enough for me to be comfortable with the defensive dropoff.

If Crede struggles, I'd just assume slide Uribe over to third, Iguchi to short and slot Harris at second. This assumes, of course, that Iguchi can still play short. I know that short was his original position before he was injured in Japan. At least with the aforementioned moves, the Sox pick-up some speed, maintain a solid infield defense and have a guy in Willie who hits righties well and will hopefully improve against lefties.

Mohoney
03-03-2005, 09:26 AM
If we wanted a backup 3B, we should have secured the rights to and signed Nakamura.

Maybe if the guy doesn't make it with the Dodgers, we can get him after they cut him, or somebody else will get cut from another team (maybe even Helms). I would rather go this route to get a backup 3B instead of trading. That way, we can still have enough depth to make a trade for a guy that can play SS and 2B before the season starts, or to fill a glaring need at the deadline should one arise through injury or ineffectiveness.

Banix12
03-03-2005, 09:50 AM
This really doesn't make a lot of sense for the Sox just for the reason that we don't have the roster room to carry an extra 3rd baseman. We already carry one player on the bench who has no regular position to play in Ross Gload, and we can't afford to carry two first basemen on the bench who play out of position.

When Thomas comes back we'll have a bench of Everett, Timo, Gload, Backup catcher (likely davis) and a Backup infielder. 11 pitchers and the 9 starting position players and those five bench players is 25.

Unless Kenny is planning on a Crede trade soon (in which I hope he can find a better replacement than Helms) or thinks Helms is a upgrade on Gload (which I don't see), we don't have a space for him on the roster.

CPditka
03-03-2005, 10:12 AM
I havent looked through all of the posts on this thread, so forgive me if this has already been posted....


This is Wes Helms' Scouting report via Scouts Inc. Not too positive at all, they talk about him being cut, do we really want to trade for a guy who might get cut?


Scouting Report

2004 Season
In December 2002, the Brewers acquired Wes Helms from the Braves and handed him the third-base job. He repaid them with 23 homers and 67 RBI in 476 at-bats. But 2004 was a disaster, as Helms managed just 18 extra-base hits and went 136 at-bats without a homer from May 12 through September 2. He lost six weeks to a torn meniscus in his right knee during the first half. Eventually, he lost his starting job to Russell Branyan.


Hitting, Baserunning & Defense
Helms' game is hitting for power, and that power has evaporated. After Branyan's acquisition in July, Helms' playing time was reduced against lefthanded pitchers, but he improved his batting average in the second half. He has not stolen a base over the past two years, and although he has a strong throwing arm, his fielding average at third base was an atrocious .904 in 2004.


2005 Outlook
The task for Helms is simply to survive at the major league level. The Brewers may try to acquire a power-hitting third baseman in the offseason. On top of that, Branyan clearly has moved ahead of him for playing time at third, and manager Ned Yost indicated at season's end that Helms is not guaranteed a roster spot for 2005.

HebrewHammer
03-03-2005, 10:35 AM
2005 Outlook
The task for Helms is simply to survive at the major league level. The Brewers may try to acquire a power-hitting third baseman in the offseason. On top of that, Branyan clearly has moved ahead of him for playing time at third, and manager Ned Yost indicated at season's end that Helms is not guaranteed a roster spot for 2005.

Sounds like a winner!

Seriously, if we're giving up Willie we should actually get some kind of value for him. He's got tremendous speed, a good glove and would be a cost effective solution for most teams at 2B. To get this zombie for him would be ridiculous.

Hangar18
03-03-2005, 10:40 AM
I heard on the Score this morning that the SOX are definitely looking
for a Utility Infielder, someone who can play 3b, 2b, SS, with some pop
in his bat, someone like a Tony Graffanino ......er wait a second ......
Didnt we have Graff on our team once?

anewman35
03-03-2005, 10:43 AM
I heard on the Score this morning that the SOX are definitely looking
for a Utility Infielder, someone who can play 3b, 2b, SS, with some pop
in his bat, someone like a Tony Graffanino ......er wait a second ......
Didnt we have Graff on our team once?

Um, yes, and he left because he wanted to be a starter. It has nothing to do with money or hatred of JR or whatever. That WAS going to be your point, right?

DaleJRFan
03-03-2005, 10:46 AM
By the way, name some 3rd basemen that are actually fast. :?:
I obviously re-edited my first post with the new stats. :wink:

Crede can at least run the bases well. He may not steal bases, but he has decent speed from first to third. Not that it matters, as he is never on first to make it to third anyway. But, Wes Helms is slow and can't run the bases well.

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 10:51 AM
I heard on the Score this morning that the SOX are definitely looking
for a Utility Infielder, someone who can play 3b, 2b, SS, with some pop
in his bat, someone like a Tony Graffanino ......er wait a second ......
Didnt we have Graff on our team once?I wish it was Alex Cintron of the Diamondbacks but I doubt he's available. :(:

HebrewHammer
03-03-2005, 10:52 AM
I heard on the Score this morning that the SOX are definitely looking
for a Utility Infielder, someone who can play 3b, 2b, SS, with some pop
in his bat, someone like a Tony Graffanino ......er wait a second ......
Didnt we have Graff on our team once?

I'll never understand the undying love affair with Tony Graffanino. You'd think he was Fred Manrique or something.

Every year he's available someone on this site is suggesting we pick him up. I guess if cost weren't an issue I'd take him over the Two-headed Wilson Valdez-Willie Harris monster we're going to have, but cost is an issue and Graff isn't worth it.

2005gosoxgo
03-03-2005, 10:52 AM
I always loved Tony Graf... I hated seeing him go and he got many clutch hits for us and was scrppy as hell....Thats who we should try to trade for...
Just my 2 cents:)

Ol' No. 2
03-03-2005, 10:55 AM
Wes Helms? The one with the .251 career BA and the cement glove? THAT Wes Helms?

Boy, if ever there was a case of the grass looking greener on the other side of the state line, this is it. Helms' and Crede's career BA are almost identical, and Helms' defense is much worse. And Helms makes more money. On top of that, there's no place on the roster for him if he can't back up SS. Someone explain to me why we would want to do this deal?

soxpower
03-03-2005, 11:02 AM
If we are going to make a cat for a dog trade then we should get pitching in return.

DaleJRFan
03-03-2005, 11:03 AM
I wish it was Alex Cintron of the Diamondbacks but I doubt he's available. :(:

Man.... you and the Alex Cintron! :)

Hangar18
03-03-2005, 11:03 AM
Um, yes, and he left because he wanted to be a starter. It has nothing to do with money or hatred of JR or whatever. That WAS going to be your point, right?

I want someone to show me a Direct Quote ......... From Tony Graffanino,
that says "I dont want to be a White Sox anymore, dont bother trying to resign me, I want to go somewhere where I can start".

and then I wont be mad that we just let him go and weakened ourselves accordingly. Personally, i wouldve sold him on staying here.
Heck, if the cubs can convince Walker to come here last year TO SIT ON THE BENCH, than anything is possible. He wanted $$$$$ was what it was.

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 11:21 AM
I want someone to show me a Direct Quote ......... From Tony Graffanino,
that says "I dont want to be a White Sox anymore, dont bother trying to resign me, I want to go somewhere where I can start".

and then I wont be mad that we just let him go and weakened ourselves accordingly. Personally, i wouldve sold him on staying here.
Heck, if the cubs can convince Walker to come here last year TO SIT ON THE BENCH, than anything is possible. He wanted $$$$$ was what it was.He DID in fact want more playing time. Thus, he signed with the Royals because they told him they would give him the starting job.

HITMEN OF 77
03-03-2005, 11:23 AM
I want someone to show me a Direct Quote ......... From Tony Graffanino,
that says "I dont want to be a White Sox anymore, dont bother trying to resign me, I want to go somewhere where I can start". He wanted $$$$$ was what it was.

I think he wanted play more. He would have stayed with the Sox but they couldn't gaurantee more playing time, so he left for KC.

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 11:27 AM
http://flashgames.5u.com/game139.htm
Tony Graffanino says he's always enjoyed batting at Kauffman Stadium. And why not? His .370 career average there is his highest at any stadium where he has more than five career at-bats."It was not an easy decision," said Graffanino, who rejected a higher offer from Boston. "But I think the Royals have the opportunity to be good, and I feel good about the decision."Royals manager Tony Pena said that Desi Relaford will open spring training as the team's starting second baseman but that Graffanino will get the opportunity to win the job.Graffanino had always hit well at Kauffman Stadium and he had a chance at winning the starting job for the Royals. It wasn't all about the money because he rejected a higher offer from Boston.

By the way, ESPN 1000 keeps reporting the Willie for Helms swap. They are making it sound like the deal is close. :?:

HebrewHammer
03-03-2005, 11:32 AM
By the way, ESPN 1000 keeps reporting the Willie for Helms swap. They are making it sound like the deal is close. :?:

:chunks


Why would KW even be discussing a trade like this?

DaleJRFan
03-03-2005, 11:33 AM
:chunks


Why would KW make a deal like this?

Agreed. Let's see if Burke can handle 3B.

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 11:36 AM
:tomatoaward

Flight #24
03-03-2005, 11:40 AM
Scouting Report

2004 Season
In December 2002, the Brewers acquired Wes Helms from the Braves and handed him the third-base job. He repaid them with 23 homers and 67 RBI in 476 at-bats. But 2004 was a disaster, as Helms managed just 18 extra-base hits and went 136 at-bats without a homer from May 12 through September 2. He lost six weeks to a torn meniscus in his right knee during the first half. Eventually, he lost his starting job to Russell Branyan.




Well, there's the problem right there. He obviously needs to go to Austria for some "minor surgery"....:redneck

tstrike2000
03-03-2005, 11:43 AM
Can Wes Helms run? If he has any speed at all, I would say, make the deal!

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 11:45 AM
Can Wes Helms run? If he has any speed at all, I would say, make the deal!Nope. He's got Konerko speed.

jabrch
03-03-2005, 11:53 AM
I think Palehose would be happy that we may be bringing Pods' friend here as well. :tongue:

Am I missing an inside joke? Are Pods and Helms an item?

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 11:57 AM
Am I missing an inside joke? Are Pods and Helms an item?Nope, but they are obviously buddies from both playing on the Brewers. Pods even talked about Helms yesterday on MJH saying he's a good clubhouse guy with some pop in his bat.

jabrch
03-03-2005, 12:00 PM
Nope, but they are obviously buddies from both playing on the Brewers. Pods even talked about Helms yesterday on MJH saying he's a good clubhouse guy with some pop in his bat.

Oh, ok - not that it matters one bit, but I thought someone was implying a relationship between the two. My bad

DaleJRFan
03-03-2005, 12:11 PM
for all of the Sox fans who think we should bring back Graffanino as our utility IF, it ain't gunna happen.

From RotoWorld:
The Royals' lineup will include eight of their nine likely Opening Day starters in today's Cactus League opener.
The only projected starter missing from the lineup will be Tony Graffanino, who is still recovering from shoulder surgery in August. ''The overall plan is to be smart early and make sure I build up my endurance,'' Graffanino said. If Graffanino can get healthy, he should get the bulk of the at-bats at second base until prospect Ruben Gotay is ready.

CPditka
03-03-2005, 12:45 PM
This deal is absolutely rediculous. All this appears to me is gaining a back up for Crede while losing a stellar pinch runner. Maybe I should put stellar in teal. Its seems to me that we already have a back up for Crede, his name is Josh Fields. Why trade your best pinch runner/ Utility infielder for something you already have??? This deal sucks.

Ol' No. 2
03-03-2005, 12:47 PM
This deal is absolutely rediculous. All this appears to me is gaining a back up for Crede while losing a stellar pinch runner. Maybe I should put stellar in teal. Its seems to me that we already have a back up for Crede, his name is Josh Fields. Why trade your best pinch runner/ Utility infielder for something you already have??? This deal sucks.It's even worse than that. At least Harris has options available, so when Thomas gets added to the lineup they could send Harris back down to AAA if they couldn't swing another deal. Helms will have to be released.

SoxxoS
03-03-2005, 12:47 PM
This deal is absolutely rediculous. All this appears to me is gaining a back up for Crede while losing a stellar pinch runner. Maybe I should put stellar in teal. Its seems to me that we already have a back up for Crede, his name is Josh Fields. Why trade your best pinch runner/ Utility infielder for something you already have??? This deal sucks.

Josh Fields ETA? 2006, and that is really stretching it. He has got a long way to go, he isn't a backup to anyone.

What makes a stellar pinch runner? Willie's base running ability sucks. As stated about 1,000,000,000 times before on this board...being fast with no instincts doesn't mean ****.

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 12:51 PM
This deal is absolutely rediculous. All this appears to me is gaining a back up for Crede while losing a stellar pinch runner. Maybe I should put stellar in teal. Its seems to me that we already have a back up for Crede, his name is Josh Fields. Why trade your best pinch runner/ Utility infielder for something you already have??? This deal sucks.If Willie was actually a utility infielder we wouldn't be trading him.

CPditka
03-03-2005, 01:14 PM
I'd rather keep willie who can hopefully learn a thing or two from Pods and use his speed. He isnt a UIF thus I used teal. And yes I have read the thousands of posts on these boards about it. However willie is 15x better than this BOZO he's like Crede with no glove and no upside. I would rather have willie who comparably is raw talent comparent to this sack of (expletive). Deal sucks. Keep willie or find a real Utility Infielder to trade for.

Jabroni
03-03-2005, 09:20 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050303&content_id=956047&vkey=spt2005news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws
On the block? A rumor put forth by a Chicago radio station that the Brewers had interest in Willie Harris was news to Harris himself when he was informed on Thursday.

"I haven't heard it," Harris said. "That right there motivated me a little more. I didn't know that."

With the signing of Tadahito Iguchi and left-handed hitters Ross Gload and Timo Perez already in reserve, Harris could have to deal with trade rumors during much of Spring Training. Guillen reiterated Thursday that he likes Harris' attitude, and that he's still part of the 25-man plans.

But he didn't issue a blanket guarantee for the young second baseman to stay in Chicago.

"Right now, we have room for him and we are counting on him," Guillen said of Harris. "That's really up to Kenny. Kenny knows what we need and will do the best he can to get this team better."

"I have to concentrate on what I do here," Harris added. "I can't let trade talk distract me."

One Brewers' scout, when asked if he was at Thursday's game to watch Harris, smiled and said, "Willie Harris? I'm not sure I know who he is.":o:

popilius
03-03-2005, 09:50 PM
Just what we need a chubby 3b, who can't run, can't hit, and can't field. Great, where do we sign up. I'll keep Crede. If it's any indication from today, Fields will be here to start the season anyway. Not to mention if you're going to get anything for Willie it should be a middle if, not another corner guy.

I agree with you here. . . if we trade Harris, I'd say a top priority is someone like Juan Uribe or Tony Graffanino- somebody who can spot-start at SS and 3B, and come in late in games.

:gulp:

Stroker Ace
03-04-2005, 03:31 AM
So it's basically a bad 2b for a bad 3b.

hosieryofthegods
03-04-2005, 05:00 AM
So it's basically a bad 2b for a bad 3b.

Yeah, that's exactly it. They're both bad. One on D, one on the basepaths, and both in the batters box. Sorry guys, but .250 doesn't inspire confidence.

.................G.. AB...R...H ..2b 3 hr rbi sb cs bb so avg obp slg
Willie 2004:129 409 68 107 15 .2 2 27 19 7 51 79 .262 .343 .323
Helms 2004:92 .274 24 72 .13 .1 4 28 00 1 24 60 .263 .331 .361


That's the deal....and Helms makes 2.7 next year why? Helms would have hit more 2b's and hr's. He probably would have also k'd more, so his obp probably would have dropped. Not much better than Harris, not to mention Crede. When you add in the glove, this is a no brainer. Save the salary, and keep our "WH" around.

nodiggity59
03-04-2005, 08:03 AM
If we got Graff and the Royals agreed to split the bill, I'd do a handstand.

SouthBendSox
03-05-2005, 09:51 PM
but I thought 2005 was about pitching and defense???

argggggggggggggh
wee Willie can run!!

Ol' No. 2
03-05-2005, 10:58 PM
but I thought 2005 was about pitching and defense???

argggggggggggggh
wee Willie can run!!
I wonder if Wee Willie knows the difference between this and teal?

Joosh
03-05-2005, 11:14 PM
but I thought 2005 was about pitching and defense???

argggggggggggggh
wee Willie can run!!


OOH, thats brutal...

:tealpolice:

This should be a felony...

Tragg
03-06-2005, 10:14 AM
Wes Helms is terrible, as would be this trade. At least Willie has some speed and we don't know for sure if he can't play. Willie also had a 340 OBP last year; Helms sports career number of .315.

How can anyone say that Cotts has no upside after 1 year in MLB and basically in long relief? The comments re Cotts, in my opinion, are a)a residual of the Foulke trade and b)a symptom of the beane lover refusing to believe beane can ever part with a young pitcher with talent. You also see the mirror image of this - everyone saying that Beane got great young pitchers in return for Mulder and Hudson (as if they know at this point).
I do agree that Manuel should take a lot of blame for the Foulke situation (which is why you should not let the field manager determine personnel).