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View Full Version : Santo's bid for HOF falls short


NSSoxFan
03-02-2005, 01:09 PM
Good, if they let Santo in, Cooperstown would have lost a lot of respect from me.

Clembasbal
03-02-2005, 01:15 PM
Good, if they let Santo in, Cooperstown would have lost a lot of respect from me.

To be honest with ya, I really don't think Santo deserves to be in. Gil Hodges (maybe) I hate this veterans committe thing...it is BS.

If the players can't get in the first 15 years, why should they get more chances to get in now?

jackbrohamer
03-02-2005, 01:19 PM
I'm glad that Santo's incessant whining did not change many minds.

MUsoxfan
03-02-2005, 01:19 PM
http://www.ungratefulninja.com/images/celebrities/rickjames.jpg

"It's a celebration, *****es!"

THANK GOD Santo didn't get in

DC Sox Fan
03-02-2005, 01:22 PM
http://wgnradio.com/gallery/jdrf2001/santowalgreensJDRF01.jpg

OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

samram
03-02-2005, 01:38 PM
To be honest with ya, I really don't think Santo deserves to be in. Gil Hodges (maybe) I hate this veterans committe thing...it is BS.

If the players can't get in the first 15 years, why should they get more chances to get in now?

Why should they get in at all if they can't get in on the first ballot? Either you're a HOFer or not. What changes between a guy's first year of eligibility and the second, or the fifth? Nothing, so I say you get one shot and someone can tell the curmodgeonly writers who vote that there is no such thing as a "First Ballot Hall of Fame" player, and they can leave their little grudges out of it.

Uncle_Patrick
03-02-2005, 01:53 PM
Guess what's the lead story on every local sportscast tonight?

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-050302cubssantohof,1,1603069.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

I'm shedding a tear, really. :whiner:

SOXintheBURGH
03-02-2005, 01:55 PM
Awwww...

Baby Fisk
03-02-2005, 01:56 PM
Guess what's the lead story on every local sportscast tonight?

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-050302cubssantohof,1,1603069.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

I'm shedding a tear, really. :whiner:
Another outrage against a former Sox player.

Hangar18
03-02-2005, 02:02 PM
Somewhere, the Chicago Media is ANGERED ........
their Media Onslaught failed to get another cub in the HOF

SoxFan78
03-02-2005, 02:02 PM
What I wouldn't give right now to hear that famous Santo Clip

"NOOOOOOOOOO, NOOOOOOOO"

cheeses_h_rice
03-02-2005, 02:22 PM
Great, two more years of whining and griping from the WGN radio broadcast booth.

:rolleyes:

DMarte708
03-02-2005, 02:25 PM
Somewhere within this headline there's a joke yearining to be told.

I just can't think of it....:redneck

mantis1212
03-02-2005, 02:31 PM
Bee-oh-oh, H-oh-oh

shoota
03-02-2005, 02:38 PM
where's santo=dorf for this one?

Iwritecode
03-02-2005, 02:42 PM
What I wouldn't give right now to hear that famous Santo Clip

"NOOOOOOOOOO, NOOOOOOOO"

Check out this thread. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=40903)

I don't know if the links are still good or not...

cubhater
03-02-2005, 03:52 PM
I'm not saying whether or not he deserves to be in the HoF or not, but all his whining, complaining, and self-promotion on the air doesn't help his cause. Plus let's not forget how many peers he angered with that stupid heel-clicking. I've also heard that he wasn't too popular with teammates. Good thing Don Young isn't on the Veteran's Comittee.

Brian26
03-02-2005, 04:04 PM
Did Ken Reitz make it yet?

Flight #24
03-02-2005, 04:09 PM
Great, two more years of whining and griping from the WGN radio broadcast booth.

:rolleyes:

Is that it? Is he then ineligible?

cheeses_h_rice
03-02-2005, 04:18 PM
Is that it? Is he then ineligible?

I'm not sure what number of times through the Veteran's Committee process is allowed. Hopefully next time will be the last, barring Ronnie's proposed induction in the Broadcast Hall of Fame.

:chunks

Ol' No. 2
03-02-2005, 04:18 PM
Is that it? Is he then ineligible?There's no such thing as being ineligible for veteran's committee anymore. But they only choose every other year. So like the groundhog, if Santo pops his head out of his hole and doesn't see a HOF election, we're in for two more years of manure shovelling from the Cubs broadcast booth.

Baby Fisk
03-02-2005, 04:30 PM
Santo = clueless. How many rejections does it take before you get the hint?

Ol' No. 2
03-02-2005, 04:44 PM
Santo = clueless. How many rejections does it take before you get the hint?He's got a foolproof plan for next time. He's going to mail out a copy of his book "This Old Cub" to all the members of the veterans' committee. (I'm not sure if this should be in teal or not.)

Rocky Soprano
03-02-2005, 04:46 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/gosox21/nelson_muntz.gif

SOXSINCE'70
03-02-2005, 05:26 PM
Guess what's the lead story on every local sportscast tonight?

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-050302cubssantohof,1,1603069.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

I'm shedding a tear, really. :whiner:

I am also shedding tears,Uncle Patrick.TEARS OF JOY!!:rolling: :rolling:

BOO- FRIGGIDY- HOO!! Santo sucked as a sCrUB.
He defintely sucked with the Sox. No pity!!
Who else is tired of his "Poor,Poor Pitiful Me"
campaign to the HOF?? If he makes it,I want Dick Allen,
Bill Melton,Carlos May and Terry Forster inducted immediately!!
:kneeslap: :kneeslap:

Jabroni
03-02-2005, 05:31 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/gosox21/nelson_muntz.gif:)

LongLiveFisk
03-02-2005, 05:36 PM
I could have sworn I heard them say on the Score (yeah I know, take that for what it's worth) that he only has two more chances left. So either there is a limit to the number of times your name can appear on the ballot or they have no idea what they're talking about.

JB98
03-02-2005, 05:47 PM
There's no such thing as being ineligible for veteran's committee anymore. But they only choose every other year. So like the groundhog, if Santo pops his head out of his hole and doesn't see a HOF election, we're in for two more years of manure shovelling from the Cubs broadcast booth.

You are correct, sir. The good news is, we're Sox fans, and we don't have to listen to the Cubs broadcasts.


:)

DrCrawdad
03-02-2005, 06:28 PM
He's got a foolproof plan for next time. He's going to mail out a copy of his book "This Old Cub" to all the members of the veterans' committee. (I'm not sure if this should be in teal or not.)

I hate Ron Santo as a broadcaster. He's the worst. The campaigning for the HoF is sickening.

The question I have, am I'm sincere, does Santo merit going into the HoF on his on-field performance?

According to BaseballReference:

Black Ink: Batting - 11 (201) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 147 (87) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 40.9 (137) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 88.0 (173) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

santo=dorf
03-02-2005, 07:00 PM
where's santo=dorf for this one?
I keep reading some of the points thinking they are directed at me! :redneck

Can't wait to hear the whining coming out of the booth for the next two years!!!

chisoxfan79
03-02-2005, 07:04 PM
we're in for two more years of manure shovelling from the Cubs broadcast booth.

Why do you listen to the Cubs broadcast anyways?:angry:

TheBull19
03-02-2005, 07:13 PM
! Santo sucked as a sCrUB.


That might be taking it a bit far, but he definitely doesn't belong in the HOF.

SOXPHILE
03-02-2005, 07:15 PM
All that can really be said is....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



So, anyone wanna go see "This Old Cub" tonight.....?

chisoxfan79
03-02-2005, 07:20 PM
That might be taking it a bit far, but he definitely doesn't belong in the HOF.

I can not judge Ron as a player because I have never seen him play but according to my dad he was the type that always hit when it didn't count. As far as broadcasting goes he is the absolute worst. I would rather die of Chinese needle torture than listen to a Cubs broadcast.

Jerome
03-02-2005, 07:37 PM
Does anyone have a full list of stats compared to other 3Bs? Because I heard on the Score that Bill James made a pretty good case for Santo.

ChiWhiteSox1337
03-02-2005, 07:56 PM
I thought he was already in the HOF. :rolleyes: Afterall, in 2003 when the cubs retired his number, he claimed that the number retirement IS his hall of fame.

Viva Medias B's
03-02-2005, 07:58 PM
I bet Boers & Bernstein had a lot of fun with this one.

Brian26
03-02-2005, 08:14 PM
I could have sworn I heard them say on the Score (yeah I know, take that for what it's worth) that he only has two more chances left. So either there is a limit to the number of times your name can appear on the ballot or they have no idea what they're talking about.

I believe they just recently changed the rule. A player used to be declared ineligible forever if the secret balloting ever fell below 5% for him to be elected. There was some concern that this might happen to Santo as the players that were considered his peers started to get older and weren't on the committee anymore. I believe they've changed the rule now so that any former player can be elected at anytime in the future (as long as he played enough years, etc).

DrCrawdad
03-02-2005, 08:28 PM
I thought he was already in the HOF. :rolleyes: Afterall, in 2003 when the cubs retired his number, he claimed that the number retirement IS his hall of fame.

I guess Ron is uninterested then in getting into the baseball HoF.

http://www.quartopiano.com/pinocchio.gif

Hitmen77
03-02-2005, 08:54 PM
I thought he was already in the HOF. :rolleyes: Afterall, in 2003 when the cubs retired his number, he claimed that the number retirement IS his hall of fame.

He's in the Cubs "Walk of Fame" - I think that's just as good as being in the HOF.

Lip Man 1
03-02-2005, 09:17 PM
Actually I hope he does get in...that'll give the Cubs four Hall of Fame members off that 1969 - 1972 group of players.

And they STILL didn't even win one friggin' pennant!

LOL

Lip

HebrewHammer
03-02-2005, 09:28 PM
On Santo, I don't care if this is a bias White Sox site...he still doesn't belong. I see NO MVP's and no offensive or any championship titles. 5 gold gloves is all he has, yes 9 All-Star games but those are stupid...Ripken was still going even though he was hitting .220 with 10 HR's - so that stat should be thrown out. I will argue till I am blue in the face that 4 players from a very very unsuccessful team do not belong in the HOF. If they had 4 "True" HOF members then they would have been a dynasty. Instead they were not, the Cubs stunk during those years. Any team in baseball will kill for 4 future Hall of Fame members because of what they will accomplish. If the Cubs had them during those years (Williams, Banks, and Jenkins) then there would have at least had been ONE playoff appearance.

Completely agree. You CANNOT have four players from a team that won NOTHING. Santo was an above average ballplayer at best, not worthy of the hall. It makes it twice as bad that he's openly campaigning for it.

TDog
03-02-2005, 10:49 PM
Actually I hope he does get in...that'll give the Cubs four Hall of Fame members off that 1969 - 1972 group of players.

And they STILL didn't even win one friggin' pennant!

LOL

Lip

How many 1969 Mets are in the HOF? Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan. Maybe I'm missing someone. Gil Hodges belongs there, certainly more than Ron Santo, maybe as much as Leo Durocher, who managed Hodges. Strange that Hodges may have had as much to do with the Mets beating the Cubs as Durocher had in the Cubs losing to the Mets.

Viva Medias B's
03-02-2005, 10:53 PM
I think Santo's petulant whining about not being in the Hall of Fame keeps him out of it more than anything else.

JRIG
03-03-2005, 06:16 AM
I hate Ron Santo as a broadcaster. He's the worst. The campaigning for the HoF is sickening.

The question I have, am I'm sincere, does Santo merit going into the HoF on his on-field performance?

According to BaseballReference:

Black Ink: Batting - 11 (201) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 147 (87) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 40.9 (137) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 88.0 (173) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

Yes. I believe he is a HOF.

9-time All-Star, 5 Gold Gloves, Top Ten in MVP 4 times. 342 home runs from a 3B in a power-depressed era. Top Ten in home runs 7 times. Top Ten in RBI 8 times. 7 years of 80+ walks, 4 100-RBI seasons.

I know it's unpopular around here. I just think he should be in. Is it a close call...debatable...? Of course.

BigEdWalsh
03-03-2005, 08:33 AM
Yes. I believe he is a HOF.

9-time All-Star, 5 Gold Gloves, Top Ten in MVP 4 times. 342 home runs from a 3B in a power-depressed era. Top Ten in home runs 7 times. Top Ten in RBI 8 times. 7 years of 80+ walks, 4 100-RBI seasons.

I know it's unpopular around here. I just think he should be in. Is it a close call...debatable...? Of course.

I don't think he should be in. It is a somewhat close call. For the sake of a lot of the younger guys on this board who never saw Santo play, he was good. In fact he was at one point probably the best NL third baseman for a couple of years. I think the torch was passed down to him from Ken Boyer. However, Ken Boyer isn't in the Hall of Fame either. Nor do I think he should be. Just being one of the best at your position for a couple of years, does not ordinarily, a Hall of Famer make.
Also, I would not say the 60's were a power-depressed era. Well, except for the White Sox.

Baby Fisk
03-03-2005, 08:38 AM
Even if he gets into the HoF in the future, the fact that Santo and his surrogates had to overtly beg, plead and whimper until he got in will say more about his status there than his stats. The stats haven't gotten him there yet.

Hangar18
03-03-2005, 09:16 AM
Yes. I believe he is a HOF.

5 Gold Gloves, ........ 342 home runs from a 3B in a power-depressed era.
Top Ten in home runs 7 times. Top Ten in RBI 8 times. 4 100-RBI seasons.



5 gold gloves, In a park that let their infield grass grow like Kansas wheat in the summer. 342 Home Runs, most of which were hit in a Wind-Aided
bogus ballpark with 350 foot power alleys, NOT TO MENTION the Bozo Basket,
(see ryne sandberg) which Padded even further those gaudy hr totals.

Sorry. Im not buying into the Open Whining from Ronnie, nor am I
believing the CHicago Medias Full Court Press and Blatantly Campaigning
for him. "NO HALL FOR YOU" ronnie, hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

Baby Fisk
03-03-2005, 09:20 AM
Sorry. Im not buying into the Open Whining from Ronnie, nor am I
believing the CHicago Medias Full Court Press and Blatantly Campaigning
for him. "NO HALL FOR YOU" ronnie, hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!
Totally agreed. What's the point of being in the HoF if you had to beg your way in? Dignity is lost on so many people...

JRIG
03-03-2005, 09:24 AM
5 gold gloves, In a park that let their infield grass grow like Kansas wheat in the summer. 342 Home Runs, most of which were hit in a Wind-Aided
bogus ballpark with 350 foot power alleys, NOT TO MENTION the Bozo Basket,
(see ryne sandberg) which Padded even further those gaudy hr totals.


As I said, it's a close call, and I'm personally also turned off by the constant campaigning. But...he also played half his games on the road. Did Wrigley help? Probably a bit.

spiffie
03-03-2005, 09:40 AM
Poor Ron. He should tell the HOF he will not stand for this sort of behavior...

TDog
03-03-2005, 11:25 AM
Yes. I believe he is a HOF. ...I know it's unpopular around here. I just think he should be in. Is it a close call...debatable...? Of course.

I don't believe Santo belongs in the HOF. I don't believe Minoso or Allen belong there either. There are a few HOFers who don't belong there. Not to get into that argument, but the lowering of standards is one of the reasons it's so difficult for the Veteran's Committee to vote people in.

I would only have voted for two people who were on this year's ballot. I would have voted for Gil Hodges. His statistics don't reflect his class, something which Santo always lacked. (Ty Cobb didn't have class, but Santo wasn't Ty Cobb. He wasn't Wade Boggs either.)

If I only had one vote, I would have cast it for Smoky Joe Wood. Statistics alone don't tell his story, although he had some impressive seasons. His career as one of the most feared pitchers of his time was ended by an on-the-field injury to his pitching hand hand shoulder. Near the end of his long life, even handshakes remained painful. He loved baseball enough that he worked on his hitting and came back from the injury as an outfielder.

Wood only got two votes. To me, that was the great injustice.

SOXFAN82
03-03-2005, 02:25 PM
I'LL CLICK MY HEELS TO THAT...:bandance:

Viva Medias B's
03-03-2005, 03:00 PM
5 gold gloves, In a park that let their infield grass grow like Kansas wheat in the summer. 342 Home Runs, most of which were hit in a Wind-Aided
bogus ballpark with 350 foot power alleys, NOT TO MENTION the Bozo Basket,
(see ryne sandberg) which Padded even further those gaudy hr totals.

Sorry. Im not buying into the Open Whining from Ronnie, nor am I
believing the CHicago Medias Full Court Press and Blatantly Campaigning
for him. "NO HALL FOR YOU" ronnie, hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, the Bozo Baskets didn't appear in Wrigley Field until the latter seasons of Santo's Cubs career (1970-73). Mr. Wrigley put them in because he feared that Bleacher Bums walking atop the outfield wall would fall onto the field. However, Hangar is right that the wind blowing out and the 368 (not 350) foot power alleys probably inflated Santo's home run totals.

chuckn98229
03-03-2005, 03:44 PM
Let the media wailing and gnashing of teeth begin:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page3/story?page=behrens/santo/050301


The first part of this is pretty good and humorous - but it goes downhill pretty quick from there!

Shorty1983
03-03-2005, 04:07 PM
5 gold gloves, In a park that let their infield grass grow like Kansas wheat in the summer. 342 Home Runs, most of which were hit in a Wind-Aided
bogus ballpark with 350 foot power alleys, NOT TO MENTION the Bozo Basket,
(see ryne sandberg) which Padded even further those gaudy hr totals.

Sorry. Im not buying into the Open Whining from Ronnie, nor am I
believing the CHicago Medias Full Court Press and Blatantly Campaigning
for him. "NO HALL FOR YOU" ronnie, hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

http://img41.exs.cx/img41/9143/haha1fs.gif

TheBull19
03-03-2005, 05:33 PM
The way I see it, if Santo's a HOF, then there are quite a few guys more deserving who will probably never get in. People point out Santa was a top 10 MVP guy 4 time, won 5 GG, was arguably the best player at his position for a few years and hit 342 homers. First off, Brooks Robinson was the best 3b in the game during Santo's career, from what I understand while Santo was a very good glovesman at 3b, Robinson was an absolute wizard, so any comparison to Robinson has no merit in my opinion.

Lets look at some guys who have similar or greater accomplishments along with a claim of being the best at the position for at least a few years.

Dale Murphy - 392 career HR, 5 GG, 2 MVP, 4 Top 10 MVP, 30/30 man, could be considered best CF in game from '82-'87, also one of top players all-around during that era. This guy will never get in, and is more deserving than Santo, IMO.

Alan Trammell - though much fewer homers at 185, also stole 236 bases and won 4 GG, top 10 MVP 3 times, WS MVP '84. I consider him at least equally worthy based on the most dominant player at his position criteria, used to support Santo. Trammell was the best all around SS in the AL from about '80 to '90 and the undisputed leader of some of the best teams of the '80s. Outside shot at best to make the hall.

Dick Allen - While Santo's main claim for HOF is being the top NL 3b for a few years, Allen is at least equally, if not more deserving based on being the most dominant offensive player in the game period for a number of years. Led the league in SLG 3 times, OBP 2x, OPS 4x, From '66 to '74 top 10 OPS every except '73 when limited to 72 games. Still managed 1.006 OPS that year. Its pretty obvious he'll never get in. Maybe folks are less impressed due to the fact he emerged as a dominant force during Aaron's and Mays' decline.

Jim Rice - see Dick Allen - an equally dominant offensive force for about 10 years.

Bill Freehan - Another guy with more GG and a longer period of dominance at a position. Could probably be considered top catcher in AL from mid 60's to early 70's. 3 times top 10 MVP, All-Star '64-'73 and '75, 6 GG, a leader of regularly contending clubs, including '68 WS champs, one of the top teams of all time.

Dwight Evans - 4x top 10 MVP, 8x GG, central figure of both the mid 70s and mid 80s Boston WS teams, 385 HRs, equally deserving, will never get in.

Steve Garvey - 74 MVP, 5x top 10 MVP, 4x GG, 10x AS, 2599 hits, .294 -272 HR, central figure on 5 NL champs and 1 WS champ. Little chance, and IMO, rightly so.

Bobby Grich - This guy's not received much consideration, rightly so probably. I include him to again show a player who could have a claim at being his league's dominant player at his position, a claim I believe he could make for about a 10 year period of about '72-81 or 82, when Whitaker began to emerge. 4x GG, 7x AS, 2x top 10 MVP, 1st 2b to lead AL in HR. Anchored infield of early to mid 70's powerhouse O's teams, and the 1st Angels teams to win the division in '79 and '82 No chance for HOF.

Tony Oliva- Has no claim at being most dominant at his position probably, but his 3 batting titles, 5x top 10 MVP, career .304 BA,8x AS, 1 GG, and 5x hit leader make him at least equal to Santo. Slim chance of HOF

Dave Parker - A guy who gets little mention, yet was one of the most dominant players of his league. .294 BA, 526 2b, 75 3b, 339 HR, 154 sb, 3 GG, '78 MVP, 6x top 10 MVP, 2 batting titles, 2 20/20 season.

Andre Dawson - Only the 3rd 300/300 man in baseball history. 8x GG, 8x AS, 4x top 10 MVP, 503 2b, 98 3b, 438 HR, 314 SB, '87 MVP, might have a claim of being the best all around RF in the game from '78-87. You can argue if he's worthy of the hall or not, but far more deserving than Santo, IMO. Moderate chance of entry, not sure why cubune isn't pissing and moaning about him yet.

These are just some guys I can think of that have many of the same merits that Santo supporters claim, particularly multiple GG and top 10 MVP seasons, and dubious claim of being dominant player at a position for a few years. I think most of us would agree these guys have little chance of HOF, but can claim the same distinctions. Until the tribune starts crying over these guys, I'll remain disgusted.

JRIG
03-03-2005, 06:26 PM
The way I see it, if Santo's a HOF, then there are quite a few guys more deserving who will probably never get in. People point out Santa was a top 10 MVP guy 4 time, won 5 GG, was arguably the best player at his position for a few years and hit 342 homers. First off, Brooks Robinson was the best 3b in the game during Santo's career, from what I understand while Santo was a very good glovesman at 3b, Robinson was an absolute wizard, so any comparison to Robinson has no merit in my opinion.

Lets look at some guys who have similar or greater accomplishments along with a claim of being the best at the position for at least a few years.

Dale Murphy - 392 career HR, 5 GG, 2 MVP, 4 Top 10 MVP, 30/30 man, could be considered best CF in game from '82-'87, also one of top players all-around during that era. This guy will never get in, and is more deserving than Santo, IMO.

Alan Trammell - though much fewer homers at 185, also stole 236 bases and won 4 GG, top 10 MVP 3 times, WS MVP '84. I consider him at least equally worthy based on the most dominant player at his position criteria, used to support Santo. Trammell was the best all around SS in the AL from about '80 to '90 and the undisputed leader of some of the best teams of the '80s. Outside shot at best to make the hall.

Dick Allen - While Santo's main claim for HOF is being the top NL 3b for a few years, Allen is at least equally, if not more deserving based on being the most dominant offensive player in the game period for a number of years. Led the league in SLG 3 times, OBP 2x, OPS 4x, From '66 to '74 top 10 OPS every except '73 when limited to 72 games. Still managed 1.006 OPS that year. Its pretty obvious he'll never get in. Maybe folks are less impressed due to the fact he emerged as a dominant force during Aaron's and Mays' decline.

Jim Rice - see Dick Allen - an equally dominant offensive force for about 10 years.

Bill Freehan - Another guy with more GG and a longer period of dominance at a position. Could probably be considered top catcher in AL from mid 60's to early 70's. 3 times top 10 MVP, All-Star '64-'73 and '75, 6 GG, a leader of regularly contending clubs, including '68 WS champs, one of the top teams of all time.

Dwight Evans - 4x top 10 MVP, 8x GG, central figure of both the mid 70s and mid 80s Boston WS teams, 385 HRs, equally deserving, will never get in.

Steve Garvey - 74 MVP, 5x top 10 MVP, 4x GG, 10x AS, 2599 hits, .294 -272 HR, central figure on 5 NL champs and 1 WS champ. Little chance, and IMO, rightly so.

Bobby Grich - This guy's not received much consideration, rightly so probably. I include him to again show a player who could have a claim at being his league's dominant player at his position, a claim I believe he could make for about a 10 year period of about '72-81 or 82, when Whitaker began to emerge. 4x GG, 7x AS, 2x top 10 MVP, 1st 2b to lead AL in HR. Anchored infield of early to mid 70's powerhouse O's teams, and the 1st Angels teams to win the division in '79 and '82 No chance for HOF.

Tony Oliva- Has no claim at being most dominant at his position probably, but his 3 batting titles, 5x top 10 MVP, career .304 BA,8x AS, 1 GG, and 5x hit leader make him at least equal to Santo. Slim chance of HOF

Dave Parker - A guy who gets little mention, yet was one of the most dominant players of his league. .294 BA, 526 2b, 75 3b, 339 HR, 154 sb, 3 GG, '78 MVP, 6x top 10 MVP, 2 batting titles, 2 20/20 season.

Andre Dawson - Only the 3rd 300/300 man in baseball history. 8x GG, 8x AS, 4x top 10 MVP, 503 2b, 98 3b, 438 HR, 314 SB, '87 MVP, might have a claim of being the best all around RF in the game from '78-87. You can argue if he's worthy of the hall or not, but far more deserving than Santo, IMO. Moderate chance of entry, not sure why cubune isn't pissing and moaning about him yet.

These are just some guys I can think of that have many of the same merits that Santo supporters claim, particularly multiple GG and top 10 MVP seasons, and dubious claim of being dominant player at a position for a few years. I think most of us would agree these guys have little chance of HOF, but can claim the same distinctions. Until the tribune starts crying over these guys, I'll remain disgusted.

My point would be all of these guys are borderline. I'd say good arguments can be made for Grich, Trammell, Freehan, and Allen for sure. Here's a tiebreaker for me -- the underrepresentation of third basemen in the HOF. There are fewer 3B than any other position in the HOF. Santo is one the top, maybe 20-25, third basemen of all time. For that he belongs as well.

And he wasn't just dominant for a "few" years. He was one of the best for ten straight years from 1963-1972.

Stroker Ace
03-09-2005, 02:07 AM
Pete Rose will get in before Santo

baseball_fanatic
03-09-2005, 09:16 AM
Pete Rose will get in before Santo

If by that you mean neither will get in, then I might can agree with you. I'm not sure Rose will ever get in unless the Hall changes its rules. According to the rules, he'd have to appear on the next ballot and it doesn't appear any closer to reinstatement.

Santo is a borderline candidate. I'd put him in based on the fact that he put up good numbers at a position that is underrepresented in the Hall.

Rose, no doubt, belongs in the Hall and had he not "gambled" with his chances would have been a no doubt first ballot guy. Rose has no one to blame but himself for not being in the Hall.

jabrch
03-09-2005, 09:47 AM
Does anyone have a full list of stats compared to other 3Bs? Because I heard on the Score that Bill James made a pretty good case for Santo.


James loves him cuz of his obp. He ignores his .275 career batting average.

TDog
03-09-2005, 10:39 AM
...
Santo is a borderline candidate. I'd put him in based on the fact that he put up good numbers at a position that is underrepresented in the Hall....

If you're putting people in the Hall of Fame, you need more and better reasons than those.

Foulke29
03-09-2005, 10:50 AM
Even if he gets into the HoF in the future, the fact that Santo and his surrogates had to overtly beg, plead and whimper until he got in will say more about his status there than his stats. The stats haven't gotten him there yet.

I don't think I agree with that statement. Nellie Fox supporters had to do the same thing, and no one brings up that his surrogates had to beg, plead and whimper to get him in.

Anyway, the best thing that could be done is for the Veterans to not put him in - as he's undeserving - period.