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Ol' No. 2
02-28-2005, 06:27 PM
Does anyone think Roger Maris' chances of getting elected to the HOF by the veteran's committee got a lot better with the steroid mess going on? Might these guys vote him in as a statement?

gobears1987
02-28-2005, 06:36 PM
I say vote him in and on the same day boot Corky, McGuire, and Bonds off of the record books or put a nice big * by their names.

RedPinStripes
02-28-2005, 07:59 PM
I think he should have been in there a long time ago. He might not have had great years, but he DID beat Babe Ruth's record and held it for about 40 years.

SOXintheBURGH
02-28-2005, 07:59 PM
Does anyone think Roger Maris' chances of getting elected to the HOF by the veteran's committee got a lot better with the steroid mess going on? Might these guys vote him in as a statement?

Too many people think "the guy isn't a HOF player he had one amazing year" about Maris, which is sad but true. But in light of the steroid hoopla it should propell Maris forward.

idseer
02-28-2005, 08:05 PM
i have an even better idea.

get rid of the hall of fame altogether. stop trying to classify every player. they do what they do .... and then that's it.

Ol' No. 2
02-28-2005, 08:16 PM
Too many people think "the guy isn't a HOF player he had one amazing year" about Maris, which is sad but true. But in light of the steroid hoopla it should propell Maris forward.He had one amazing year, but the others weren't exactly shabby. Remember, most of his years were during the dominant pitching era.

2-time AL MVP 1960-61
4-time All-Star
1 Gold Glove

baseball_fanatic
02-28-2005, 08:46 PM
Maris falls into the category of good player that isn't quite HOF caliber. There are a number of players in that group including Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, and Jim Rice.

Daver
02-28-2005, 08:51 PM
The baseball HOF is a joke, and will continue to be a joke because of their selected election process.

A HOF was never meant to be an exclusive club reserved for media favorites.

WhiteSoxFan84
02-28-2005, 10:16 PM
Maris is not a hall of famer. He did have 1 great year and he got all the due recognition during those 40 years he held the record. 61* was a great movie and stuff like that will keep his name in our memories.

career .260 BA isn't eye-popping and 275 HRS and .476 SLG % are not HOF material for a power hitter.

SoxFan76
02-28-2005, 10:27 PM
i have an even better idea.

get rid of the hall of fame altogether. stop trying to classify every player. they do what they do .... and then that's it.

Agreed. In our hearts, Joe Jackson is in the HOF. Most of us believe Maris is a HOFer and we, generally, will not see Sosa as a HOFer. Bonds, I will regardless. The man has over 500 steals and 700 homers. That is insane.

I don't need a building to tell me who was good or not.

wdelaney72
03-01-2005, 09:19 AM
Might these guys vote him in as a statement?

That's a very interesting thought. I think it's highly possible they do it.

I have no problem with Maris being in the HOF, based on how long his record stood for.

Clembasbal
03-01-2005, 09:30 AM
Can I get a count of who has actually been to the HOF? Or to a HOF induction ceremony?

I have been five times and saw Johnny Bench in 1989 (for the HOF's 50th) and the last two years...Bob Ucker was absolutely the funniest person and gave the bst speech I have ever heard.

On that note, the HOF is priceless. It is a great past of baseball whether you like it or not. I think players should be classified as the "best players" of all time. Maybe less media voting, but heck you can't argue with 80% or 85% of the vote needed to get in, that is high...you gotta be good.

Maris has a number of things of his in the HOF and so do a bunch of other good players.

Having 61 HR's is unbelieveable in that era. But if you put him in based on that stat, why not put in Bob Welsch for winning 27 games in 1988 or 1989 for Oakland, when pitchers didn't usually win more than 22. That is a great year too.

Ol' No. 2
03-01-2005, 10:07 AM
Maris is not a hall of famer. He did have 1 great year and he got all the due recognition during those 40 years he held the record. 61* was a great movie and stuff like that will keep his name in our memories.

career .260 BA isn't eye-popping and 275 HRS and .476 SLG % are not HOF material for a power hitter.You can't compare 1960's hitting stats with today. Remember, this was a time of an expanded strike zone and a higher pitching mound. In 1968 the whole AL hit .230 and only one player broke .300. A .260 BA was actually about 10 pts above average and would be equivalent to about .275-.280 today, which is pretty respectable for a power hitter. He was also AL MVP in both 1960 and 1961 and a 4-time All-Star, so the "one great year" is a myth.

jackbrohamer
03-01-2005, 10:29 AM
I agree that it's turning into an urban myth that Maris had one great year. He had several great years --- and one incredible year --- before his abbreviated career ended at age 34. He also played in 7 World Series and 4 All Star games.

Should that get him into the Hall of Fame? Who knows, but I see something written about his accomplishments just about every week, how many other players from the early 1960s can you say that about? I'd rather see him in the HOF than players who play out the string into their 40s to pad their career stats.

idseer
03-01-2005, 10:33 AM
maris flat out does not have the numbers for induction to the hall. i don't care how famous he was. you put him in you have 50, 100 other guys with as good or better a claim.

Ol' No. 2
03-01-2005, 10:38 AM
maris flat out does not have the numbers for induction to the hall. i don't care how famous he was. you put him in you have 50, 100 other guys with as good or better a claim.There are 50 other guys who held the single-season HR total? I wouldn't necessarily vote him in for a singular accomplishment, but it's not as if he was a journeyman player that just had one good year, either.

jackbrohamer
03-01-2005, 10:42 AM
The HOF's focus on career #s is a joke and is why clowns like Raphael Palmeiro and Fred McGriff will automatically get in. If that's the logic, Sandy Koufax -- one of the best pitchers ever --- shouldn't be in either.

Ol' No. 2
03-01-2005, 10:54 AM
The HOF's focus on career #s is a joke and is why clowns like Raphael Palmeiro and Fred McGriff will automatically get in. If that's the logic, Sandy Koufax -- one of the best pitchers ever --- shouldn't be in either.I agree, and it's the reason players like Ryne Sandberg are in. What did Sandberg ever do that made him famous? IMO, the Hall of Fame is supposed to be for players who have accomplished something that sets them apart from the other players. Based purely on career numbers, Cal Ripkin isn't really anything special, but his consecutive game string was a transendent accomplishment. When you break a significant record like the single-season HR total that stood for 34 years, and your record stands for another 37 years, how is that not HOF worthy?

D. TODD
03-01-2005, 11:04 AM
I agree, and it's the reason players like Ryne Sandberg are in. What did Sandberg ever do that made him famous? IMO, the Hall of Fame is supposed to be for players who have accomplished something that sets them apart from the other players. Based purely on career numbers, Cal Ripkin isn't really anything special, but his consecutive game string was a transendent accomplishment. When you break a significant record like the single-season HR total that stood for 34 years, and your record stands for another 37 years, how is that not HOF worthy? His great accomplishment should be recognized, as a very worthy part of the HOF. That does not mean his overall career should be honored by the hall.

Ol' No. 2
03-01-2005, 11:18 AM
His great accomplishment should be recognized, as a very worthy part of the HOF. That does not mean his overall career should be honored by the hall.But who ever said the HOF is only for overall career accomplishments? That's the logic that puts Ryne Sandberg, Joe Morgan and Eddie Murray in the HOF. And it's the logic that will eventually put Ron Santo, Raffy Palmiero and Robbie Alomar in the HOF. Maris is the only person in baseball history to honestly hit more than 60 HR in a season. That and 2 league MVP's should be enough.

idseer
03-01-2005, 11:48 AM
But who ever said the HOF is only for overall career accomplishments? That's the logic that puts Ryne Sandberg, Joe Morgan and Eddie Murray in the HOF. And it's the logic that will eventually put Ron Santo, Raffy Palmiero and Robbie Alomar in the HOF. Maris is the only person in baseball history to honestly hit more than 60 HR in a season. That and 2 league MVP's should be enough.

well whoever said the hall was anything?
i do think, however, MOST people think it is about career accomplishments.
maris had one great year (even then only with regards to homeruns mostly in a park made for lefthanded hr hitters). that was IT! mvp's have much to do with your teams accomplishments too. besides mantle should have clearly won the award in '61. politics!
yes he had a couple other good years. so what. hundreds of players have had more good years than did maris.

unless and until it's established exactly what the criteria is for enshrinement this is really a waste of time.

the hall as a museum should be there for sure. it should contain all the great accomplishments like maris's. it does.

edit: check out baseball ref.com. maris is nowhere near qualified for the hall. look at all the guys he's most compared to. not a hof in the lot.

BigEdWalsh
03-01-2005, 12:14 PM
Maris in the HOF, no way!

Yes, he had one great and magical year. Denny McLain had a year like that too. Yes, Maris won 2 MVPs. So did Dale Murphy. Zoilo Versalles and Jeff Burroughs won MVPs if I'm not mistaken.

Maris should be certainly be honored in the Hall of Fame for his great accomplishment, but not as a Hall of Fame member.

AZChiSoxFan
03-01-2005, 01:31 PM
I agree, and it's the reason players like Ryne Sandberg are in. What did Sandberg ever do that made him famous? IMO, the Hall of Fame is supposed to be for players who have accomplished something that sets them apart from the other players. Based purely on career numbers, Cal Ripkin isn't really anything special, but his consecutive game string was a transendent accomplishment. When you break a significant record like the single-season HR total that stood for 34 years, and your record stands for another 37 years, how is that not HOF worthy?

Along that same line of reasoning, A while back in a different thread, I posted that Bert "be home" Blyleven was not HOF worthy, but I quickly found out that my opinion was definitely in the minority. I do ask though, what did BB accomplish that set him apart from other players?

AZChiSoxFan
03-01-2005, 01:36 PM
Can I get a count of who has actually been to the HOF? Or to a HOF induction ceremony?


On that note, the HOF is priceless. It is a great past of baseball whether you like it or not. I think players should be classified as the "best players" of all time. Maybe less media voting, but heck you can't argue with 80% or 85% of the vote needed to get in, that is high...you gotta be good.



I have been to the HOF one time, but it was not for an induction ceremony. I absolutely loved the place. For all of the people who had told how great the HOF is, nobody ever told me what a great town Cooperstown is. It looks and feels like Norman Rockwell drew it up for a painting.

duke of dorwood
03-01-2005, 01:51 PM
I think he should have been in there a long time ago. He might not have had great years, but he DID beat Babe Ruth's record and held it for about 40 years.

I agree-he was a solid ball player that held the most visible sports record for a long time

baseball_fanatic
03-01-2005, 02:03 PM
If Maris's two MVP's put him in the Hall, then we should go ahead and make room for Juan Gonzalez as well as Dale Murphy. Andre Dawson also had an MVP and a ROY award. Should he also be inducted? There are several tests for a HOF. One is were they ever either the best in the game at their position. Another is how long did they sustain such greatness or at least very goodness. Maris had a short span of seasons where he was very good, even great. But over the course of his career, he did not play at a level that would have me call him a HOFer. He falls into a group that includes the above players along with Don Mattingly, Jim Rice, Steve Garvey and a host of other very good and at times great players who were not HOF players.

doublem23
03-01-2005, 03:10 PM
2-time MVP winners are Hall of Famers. No questions. End of discussion.

Ol' No. 2
03-01-2005, 03:12 PM
well whoever said the hall was anything?
i do think, however, MOST people think it is about career accomplishments.
maris had one great year (even then only with regards to homeruns mostly in a park made for lefthanded hr hitters). that was IT! mvp's have much to do with your teams accomplishments too. besides mantle should have clearly won the award in '61. politics!
yes he had a couple other good years. so what. hundreds of players have had more good years than did maris.

unless and until it's established exactly what the criteria is for enshrinement this is really a waste of time.

the hall as a museum should be there for sure. it should contain all the great accomplishments like maris's. it does.

edit: check out baseball ref.com. maris is nowhere near qualified for the hall. look at all the guys he's most compared to. not a hof in the lot.For the umpteenth time, the "one good year" is myth. Or did he win the AL MVP in 1960 for an average year? There are only two eligible players with multiple MVP's that are not in the HOF. Dale Murphy is the other, but he didn't accomplish anything else of note, so the comparison is not even close.

The Baseball-Reference.com stats are career stats, so using them to support the proposition that career stats are what matter is a circular argument. Most people think it's about career accomplishments because that's been the recent trend, but that wasn't the original idea of the HOF. It was supposed to be for players whose accomplishments sets them apart from other players. If being the only player in baseball history to honestly hit more than 60 HR in a season doesn't set you apart, I don't know what does.

D. TODD
03-01-2005, 03:20 PM
Maris in the HOF, no way!

Yes, he had one great and magical year. Denny McLain had a year like that too. Yes, Maris won 2 MVPs. So did Dale Murphy. Zoilo Versalles and Jeff Burroughs won MVPs if I'm not mistaken.

Maris should be certainly be honored in the Hall of Fame for his great accomplishment, but not as a Hall of Fame member. I agree totally! Bobby Thigpen is the single season saves champ, but nobody would mistake him for a hall of fame closer.

Ol' No. 2
03-01-2005, 03:27 PM
I agree totally! Bobby Thigpen is the single season saves champ, but nobody would mistake him for a hall of fame closer.Are you equating being the single-season saves leader with being the only player ever to honestly hit more than 60 HR in a season? GMAB

1917
03-01-2005, 03:43 PM
If Maris isn't in....and Dale Murphy isn't in.....then Frank has no chance unless he has another great season. Maris should be in, I always thought he was until 5 years ago. Dale Murphy...7 time All Star, 2 time MVP, 5 GG's...if Ryno made it, then Murph should too.

idseer
03-01-2005, 03:45 PM
For the umpteenth time, the "one good year" is myth. Or did he win the AL MVP in 1960 for an average year? There are only two eligible players with multiple MVP's that are not in the HOF. Dale Murphy is the other, but he didn't accomplish anything else of note, so the comparison is not even close.

The Baseball-Reference.com stats are career stats, so using them to support the proposition that career stats are what matter is a circular argument. Most people think it's about career accomplishments because that's been the recent trend, but that wasn't the original idea of the HOF. It was supposed to be for players whose accomplishments sets them apart from other players. If being the only player in baseball history to honestly hit more than 60 HR in a season doesn't set you apart, I don't know what does.

try reading a little closer no.2. i said one GREAT year. he had two other very good years .... about on a par with paul konerko's year last year.
MVP's don't mean **** to me. mvp is mostly a political appointment.

we just aren't going to agree here. roger maris wasn't elected to the hof because he CLEARLY doesn't have the credentials for it.
you claim to KNOW the original idea behind being elected to the hall, right? then please produce some proof for me. give me a web page or something that states this. if it's for things that set them apart.. then why a 5 year waiting period?

i found this interesting item at the baseball hall of fame site:

Rules for Election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame by Members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA)

6. Automatic Elections No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted


it seems to fly in the face of your "special accomplishment" theory.

y'all can think he's a hof'er till doomsday .... but he's not.

Ol' No. 2
03-01-2005, 03:54 PM
try reading a little closer no.2. i said one GREAT year. he had two other very good years .... about on a par with paul konerko's year last year.
MVP's don't mean **** to me. mvp is mostly a political appointment.

we just aren't going to agree here. roger maris wasn't elected to the hof because he CLEARLY doesn't have the credentials for it.
you claim to KNOW the original idea behind being elected to the hall, right? then please produce some proof for me. give me a web page or something that states this. if it's for things that set them apart.. then why a 5 year waiting period?

i found this interesting item at the baseball hall of fame site:

Rules for Election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame by Members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA)

6. Automatic Elections No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted


it seems to fly in the face of your "special accomplishment" theory.

y'all can think he's a hof'er till doomsday .... but he's not.One of the first movers behind the HOF was Ford Frick. From the HOF website (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/about/history.htm):

"Frick proposed that a Hall of Fame be established as part of the shrine to honor the game's immortals."

If Roger Maris isn't one of the game's immortals, and Ryne Sandberg and Joe Morgan are, something is seriously screwed up.

idseer
03-01-2005, 04:00 PM
One of the first movers behind the HOF was Ford Frick. From the HOF website (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/about/history.htm):

"Frick proposed that a Hall of Fame be established as part of the shrine to honor the game's immortals."

If Roger Maris isn't one of the game's immortals, and Ryne Sandberg and Joe Morgan are, something is seriously screwed up.

way to ignore my post.

in any event, the 'game's immortals' is pretty fuzzy if you ask me. i would not consider maris an immortal. he had one fluke year. that's not enough for me.

and if i were drafting a lineup i would take either morgan or sandberg WAY ahead of maris. they were both much more valuable imo.

D. TODD
03-01-2005, 04:03 PM
Are you equating being the single-season saves leader with being the only player ever to honestly hit more than 60 HR in a season? GMAB The fact that he accomplished a great feat in the 61 season is recognized in the hall, but I do not equate that with him being a hall of fame player. I used Thigpen as an example, because he accomplished a great feat for relief pitchers, but he was not a great relief pitcher. Roger Maris was a strong player during his time, but he would be almost completely forgotten if not for his miraculous home run year. I do not see this as a hall of fame player.

D. TODD
03-01-2005, 04:07 PM
way to ignore my post.

in any event, the 'game's immortals' is pretty fuzzy if you ask me. i would not consider maris an immortal. he had one fluke year. that's not enough for me.

and if i were drafting a lineup i would take either morgan or sandberg WAY ahead of maris. they were both much more valuable imo. There are questionable hall of fame members. Morgan & Sandberg not being two of them in my mind, but that does not make Maris a baseball immortal. His feat is immortal, as is Bonds 73. The difference is Bonds was a elite player during his time , while Maris was a good player for his career

baseball_fanatic
03-01-2005, 07:25 PM
2-time MVP winners are Hall of Famers. No questions. End of discussion.

So Juan Gonzalez and Dale Murphy should be in?

StockdaleForVeep
03-01-2005, 08:59 PM
I say vote him in and on the same day boot Corky, McGuire, and Bonds off of the record books or put a nice big * by their names.

AND what proof do u have any of the legends werent on some type of drug back then? Only diff from then and now is tehcnology and that alot of drugs back then werent illigal

StockdaleForVeep
03-01-2005, 09:02 PM
2-time MVP winners are Hall of Famers. No questions. End of discussion.

Ted williams barely got 2 mvps cuz the media hated him. If they hated him enuff to not give him 2 or 1, should he be HOF?

Clembasbal
03-01-2005, 09:39 PM
I have been to the HOF one time, but it was not for an induction ceremony. I absolutely loved the place. For all of the people who had told how great the HOF is, nobody ever told me what a great town Cooperstown is. It looks and feels like Norman Rockwell drew it up for a painting.

You know what the best part about that place is...all the old time baseball card shops. There are a ton and you can find almost anything in any one of those stores. There are gems all over the place. A lot of Retro stuff too.

wdelaney72
03-02-2005, 10:28 AM
Along that same line of reasoning, A while back in a different thread, I posted that Bert "be home" Blyleven was not HOF worthy, but I quickly found out that my opinion was definitely in the minority. I do ask though, what did BB accomplish that set him apart from other players?

It's been said he threw one of the greatest cure balls ever. I don't have his numbers in front of me, but he was a pretty damn good pitcher. HOF worthy? Maybe.

idseer
03-02-2005, 10:36 AM
It's been said he threw one of the greatest cure balls ever. I don't have his numbers in front of me, but he was a pretty damn good pitcher. HOF worthy? Maybe.

gary peters had one of the greatest curves ever too.
i don't think he's hall worthy either.

wilburaga
03-02-2005, 11:55 AM
Along that same line of reasoning, A while back in a different thread, I posted that Bert "be home" Blyleven was not HOF worthy, but I quickly found out that my opinion was definitely in the minority. I do ask though, what did BB accomplish that set him apart from other players?

5th in career strikeouts
9th in career games started
9th in career shutouts
13th in career innings pitched
25th in career wins


W

Ol' No. 2
03-02-2005, 12:06 PM
5th in career strikeouts
9th in career games started
9th in career shutouts
13th in career innings pitched
25th in career wins


WThis is the problem with using career stats as a criterion for HOF. It rewards players who were good for a long period of time in preference to those who were great players but for a shorter period of time. Blyleven is not a HOF pitcher.

JRIG
03-02-2005, 12:23 PM
This is the problem with using career stats as a criterion for HOF. It rewards players who were good for a long period of time in preference to those who were great players but for a shorter period of time. Blyleven is not a HOF pitcher.

He had eight seasons with an ERA under 3.00, was top ten in ERA ten times, top ten in Ks 15 times, and played mostly for very poor teams which does hurt his win total. And it's not like he hung on to accumulate those career stats. He had a 2.73 ERA at the age of 38.

He's a definite HOF.

wilburaga
03-02-2005, 12:42 PM
This is the problem with using career stats as a criterion for HOF. It rewards players who were good for a long period of time in preference to those who were great players but for a shorter period of time. Blyleven is not a HOF pitcher.

old:

Change 'good' to 'very good' and take out the last sentence and I agree with you. I think Bert's got a solid case and I think he'll be seriously considered by the Veterans Committee. But when you think of all the Fallons, Wehrmeisters, Horlens, Janeskis, etc who have ever toed the rubber, and consider that only 4 of them struck out more batters than Bert, I don't think he should be so easily dismissed as 'not a HOF pitcher'.

W

TDog
03-02-2005, 12:47 PM
...But when you think of all the Fallons, Wehrmeisters, Horlens, Janeskis, etc who have ever toed the rubber, and consider that only 4 of them struck out more batters than Bert, I don't think he should be so easily dismissed as 'not a HOF pitcher'.

W


But Jerry Janeski did pitch a three-hit shutout against the A's early in the 1970 season. It was a great game.

wilburaga
03-02-2005, 01:00 PM
But Jerry Janeski did pitch a three-hit shutout against the A's early in the 1970 season. It was a great game.

TDog:

True dat. April 15, 1970, in a game featuring home runs by Pineapple Matias (half his career total), Buddy Bradford, and Duane Josephson, Jerry Janeski 3 hit the A's at Oakland. And please, please, do not mention the 1970 season ever again.

W

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B04150OAK1970.htm

idseer
03-02-2005, 01:46 PM
This is the problem with using career stats as a criterion for HOF. It rewards players who were good for a long period of time in preference to those who were great players but for a shorter period of time. Blyleven is not a HOF pitcher.

i do understand what you are saying. don sutton comes to mind as an example of a guy who never struck me as a hof'er yet he won over 300 games. hard to ignore that.
still. some players, while they may have had spurts, just haven't logged the time. you mentioned koufax. true sandy played only 12 years ... and 6 of those weren't all that. but the remaining six were incredible. i just don't think roger has even half that.
i still have to say close, but no cigar. :smile:

Ol' No. 2
03-02-2005, 02:47 PM
i do understand what you are saying. don sutton comes to mind as an example of a guy who never struck me as a hof'er yet he won over 300 games. hard to ignore that.
still. some players, while they may have had spurts, just haven't logged the time. you mentioned koufax. true sandy played only 12 years ... and 6 of those weren't all that. but the remaining six were incredible. i just don't think roger has even half that.
i still have to say close, but no cigar. :smile:I don't really have a problem with "lifetime achievement" HOF elections. But at the same time, players who were transcendant, but for shorter periods of time should also have those contributions weigh just as heavily, and as it stands now, they don't. It's the argument that people will use agains Frank Thomas - sure he was a great player, but only for a relatively short period of time. It's a myth that Maris had only one good year. He was a 2-time MVP, 4-time All-Star, top-10 in total bases 4 times, home runs 4 times, extra base hits 4 times, RBI 3 times, SLG 3 times, OPS 3 times. He was one of the top hitters in the AL from 1958-1962. This is not the work of a one-year wonder.

These accomplishments would not be enough all by themselves, but coupled with breaking the most storied record in all of baseball, I call that HOF-worthy.