PDA

View Full Version : Sox labeled one of "Least Recognizable Teams" going into ST


WhiteSoxFan84
02-21-2005, 09:21 AM
From yesterday's Jayson Stark's ESPN article....

Least Recognizable Teams


1. A's
2. Dodgers
3. White Sox



We're not sure how many GMs out there never miss an episode of Extreme Makeover, but the competition has never been more feverish for this award. The Dodgers have turned over seven-eighths of their starting lineup in a mere calendar year. The White Sox just blew up half their lineup. The Diamondbacks ought to set all kinds of franchise records for program sales. And we doubt there are 15 people outside the state of Missouri who could name six Royals.



But every time we try to imagine an A's conversation that doesn't begin with Hudson-Mulder-Zito, we realize an era just ended in Oakland. And somebody ought to observe that properly. So consider it duly observed.

...he continues his dumbing down of the reader...

Best Trades


1. Yankees get the most dominating 41-year-old left-hander alive (Randy Johnson) for Javier Vazquez, two prospects who were never going to model pinstripes and 9 million of those handy Boss Steinbrenner dollars.



2. Brewers get a legit middle-of-the-order thumper (Carlos Lee (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6161)) from the White Sox for a package headed by not-so-up-and-coming Scott Podsednik (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6489) who, oh by the way, is actually three months older than Lee.



3. A's get the ultimate Moneyball catcher (Jason Kendall (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5562)) for the two pitchers GM Billy Beane most wanted to get 3,000 miles away from -- Arthur Rhodes (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4736) and Mark Redman (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6285).

.... hmmm, how redundant have those two theories been?

:KW
"Well, to comment on those two issues, all I have to say is one thing; under the radar baby, under the radar."

kittle42
02-21-2005, 09:23 AM
OK - putting aside that trade from a Sox standpoint - meaning forget the fact that it allowed the Sox to get several other players after Lee's salary dump - that was an awesome trade for the Brewers.

MRKARNO
02-21-2005, 09:29 AM
All that Stark is saying about the White Sox is that they're a much different looking team than they were last year, especially at the beginning. Our roster is more than half changed since the beginning of last year, so it's a valid comment which reflects that he knows what the White Sox did this offseason

Brian26
02-21-2005, 09:30 AM
OK - putting aside that trade from a Sox standpoint - meaning forget the fact that it allowed the Sox to get several other players after Lee's salary dump - that was an awesome trade for the Brewers.

True- only because they were willing to take on the extra salary from Caballo's contract. But, yes, what they gave up for CLee...that was a great trade for them.

nccwsfan
02-21-2005, 09:37 AM
True- only because they were willing to take on the extra salary from Caballo's contract. But, yes, what they gave up for CLee...that was a great trade for them.

And that's really the purpose of a trade, to benefit both teams. In the end I'm comfortable knowing that the White Sox will be fine.

Palehose13
02-21-2005, 10:11 AM
And that's really the purpose of a trade, to benefit both teams. In the end I'm comfortable knowing that the White Sox will be fine.

Yep, and I think the Podsednik/Vizcaino - Lee trade was one of the most fair trades that benefits both teams. I don't feel that anyone got fleeced cause the Brewers got the power hitter they have needed for so long. The Sox got a threat on the bases, a strengthened pen and lots of $$$ to play with...and Kenny sure did do something with that $$$.

Jabroni
02-21-2005, 10:19 AM
All that Stark is saying about the White Sox is that they're a much different looking team than they were last year, especially at the beginning. Our roster is more than half changed since the beginning of last year, so it's a valid comment which reflects that he knows what the White Sox did this offseasonYep, that's the way I read it. He meant that the Sox lineup is one of the most different looking from last year's lineup. Although, the comment about Podsednik being 3 months older than Lee was pretty moronic. Wow, a whole 3 months older??? :rolleyes:

SoxFan78
02-21-2005, 10:30 AM
Can somebody please let me know what year Carlos Lee was an all star left fielder and also MVP of the league?? Nobody talked about Carlos Lee when he was on the Sox. Now since he's gone, all of the "critics" are praising CLee like he's the next great left fielder of our time.

Kogs35
02-21-2005, 10:31 AM
i sure as hell dont care what any eastern seaborn network saids they know nothing. they will all be proved wrong very shortly

WhiteSoxFan84
02-21-2005, 11:19 AM
My points were...

1) The Lee for Pod and Viz deal was more than fair because we winded up signing El Duque. About 95% of the articles I have read say that the Brewers stole C-Lee from us. Stark is saying the samething in this article.

2) How are we less recognizable? Yes, we lost Magglio and Lee, but we picked up El Duque (probably the most popular player on the Sox because of his Yankee days), Podsednik (lead the league in steals last year), Pierzynski (regarded as one of the best hitting catchers in the game), and we still have former MVP Frank Thomas, MVP candidate Paul Konerko, Cy Young candidates Mark Buehrle and Freddy Garcia. We also picked up two of the most successful Japanese players in the game. Yet we're unrecognizable? I think if he labeled us one of the Most Made Over teams in baseball, it would have sounded better. Less recognizable isn't true, because true baseball fans (and most Sox fans are true baseball fans), recognize each and every player on the team.

MIgrenade
02-21-2005, 11:29 AM
Yeah I don't totally get this. I didn't know anybody knew CLee outside Chicago until he got traded and the entire starting rotation is recognizable. Who the hell knew who Danny Wright was, or Jon Rauch outside Sox fans? Re-made? Yes. Unrecognizable? Questionable, especially when you consider the other teams on the list who have almost nobody recognizable left.

MUsoxfan
02-21-2005, 11:33 AM
On top of this....I don't look at the trade as simply Lee for Pods/Vizcaino. In reality, the trade was Lee for Pods/Vizcaino/El Duque/Dye/Pierzynski/PTBNL. Not bad, IMO

Jerome
02-21-2005, 11:43 AM
Duh. Player for player, it was a one-sided salary dump. It was a great trade for the Brewers. Too bad the sportswriters never mention the FA signings KW made after the trade.

SOXSINCE'70
02-21-2005, 11:45 AM
There's a part of me that wants to see any Sox
player go out of their way to embarass this
"sqwaking" head the next time he wants to
interview them about how the team took everyone
by surprise.:cuss: :cuss:


If I could quote Cartman from "South Park",
i'd tell the Yankmee/Blo Sawx Network
"Screw You,Hippie!" or "Weak,totally weak". :D:

WhiteSoxFan84
02-21-2005, 11:51 AM
On top of this....I don't look at the trade as simply Lee for Pods/Vizcaino. In reality, the trade was Lee for Pods/Vizcaino/El Duque/Dye/Pierzynski/PTBNL. Not bad, IMO

The Dye signing had more to do with Magglio leaving but everyone else you named pretty much did get signed or acquired after and because of the Lee trade. Not too shabby at all.

Fredsox
02-21-2005, 12:33 PM
You know, this is just another example of why I can't wait for the season to start. I am sick and f**** tired of hearing about the Lee trade and how we got "taken". Nothing is going to change any reporter's mind so I won't argue the point, but when the season is over that tale will be told and we'll know if it was the right move or the wrong move.

There's nothing like a division crown to shut up the critics.

Fake Chet Lemon
02-21-2005, 12:46 PM
Keep this in mind. National writers ALWAYS make three FATAL ERRORS:

1) They undervalue team defense.
2) They undervalue bullpens.
3) They overvalue power.

It's probably because they would really have to do their homework to get that all correct. They don't. So expect them to talk the Sox down, that's OK. Under the Radar is all good!

Ol' No. 2
02-21-2005, 12:48 PM
Keep this in mind. National writers ALWAYS make three FATAL ERRORS:

1) They undervalue team defense.
2) They undervalue bullpens.
3) They overvalue power.

It's probably because they would really have to do their homework to get that all correct. They don't. So expect them to talk the Sox down, that's OK. Under the Radar is all good!Most national writers probably couldn't name 10 players on the Sox roster. They concoct their ratings based on how many stars you have because looking any deeper would require actual work.

pudge
02-21-2005, 01:00 PM
True- only because they were willing to take on the extra salary from Caballo's contract. But, yes, what they gave up for CLee...that was a great trade for them.

Why is there this prevailing notion that it was such a great move for the Brewers? How many players can steal 70 bases? Maybe a small handful? And how many players can hit 30 homers with 100 RBIs? Well, I just went and counted the players from last season who were approx. 30 HR/100 RBI players, and I counted 42!!

Plus, the Brewers gave up a strong arm from their pen. And let's not forget, CLee isn't exactly the prettiest fielder, nor is his head always in the game.

So, why exactly was this such a friggin' STEAL for Milwaukee?

patbooyah
02-21-2005, 01:09 PM
Why is there this prevailing notion that it was such a great move for the Brewers? How many players can steal 70 bases? Maybe a small handful? And how many players can hit 30 homers with 100 RBIs? Well, I just went and counted the players from last season who were approx. 30 HR/100 RBI players, and I counted 42!!

Plus, the Brewers gave up a strong arm from their pen. And let's not forget, CLee isn't exactly the prettiest fielder, nor is his head always in the game.

So, why exactly was this such a friggin' STEAL for Milwaukee?

i agree- i loved carlos, but he and jose were two of the most frustrating players to watch. jose because of his strikeouts and mustache, and carlos because he seemed like the kid in little league with A.D.D.... out in left field looking at the sky, putting his mitt over his face and looking through the webbing and picking weeds out of the grass. i never saw a lot of hustle out of him and that was frustrating.

but back to jose- i get very happy thinking about how he is no longer on this team. i like to tease dodger fans about their great pick-up.

Ol' No. 2
02-21-2005, 01:18 PM
Why is there this prevailing notion that it was such a great move for the Brewers? How many players can steal 70 bases? Maybe a small handful? And how many players can hit 30 homers with 100 RBIs? Well, I just went and counted the players from last season who were approx. 30 HR/100 RBI players, and I counted 42!!

Plus, the Brewers gave up a strong arm from their pen. And let's not forget, CLee isn't exactly the prettiest fielder, nor is his head always in the game.

So, why exactly was this such a friggin' STEAL for Milwaukee?It's not a matter of it being a steal for the Brewers as much as it is that they filled a need. The middle of their linup was heavily LH'ed and they desperately needed a RH power guy to break them up. CLee filled the bill very well. They have other speedy guys.

Palehose13
02-21-2005, 01:20 PM
My points were...
2) How are we less recognizable? Yes, we lost Magglio and Lee, but we picked up El Duque (probably the most popular player on the Sox because of his Yankee days), Podsednik (lead the league in steals last year), Pierzynski (regarded as one of the best hitting catchers in the game), and we still have former MVP Frank Thomas, MVP candidate Paul Konerko, Cy Young candidates Mark Buehrle and Freddy Garcia. We also picked up two of the most successful Japanese players in the game. Yet we're unrecognizable? I think if he labeled us one of the Most Made Over teams in baseball, it would have sounded better. Less recognizable isn't true, because true baseball fans (and most Sox fans are true baseball fans), recognize each and every player on the team.

I believe he writes that the Sox are unrecognizable because they have had a major makeover this offseason. 4 guys in the batting order are new to the team, not to mention the new pitchers. I think that's all he meant, not that the Sox were a bunch of "nobody's".

chisox2005
02-21-2005, 01:30 PM
Don't know how much this plays a part but with the Cubs getting so much national attention recently with all this world series talk, the writers don't pay too much attention to the Sox. I also saw either here or on another site that the Sox were the worst draw or close to when they were on the road. I really can't figure that out other than playing in the Central which has worse attendance then the East and West.

Jabroni
02-21-2005, 01:39 PM
i agree- i loved carlos, but he and jose were two of the most frustrating players to watch. jose because of his strikeouts and mustache, and carlos because he seemed like the kid in little league with A.D.D.... out in left field looking at the sky, putting his mitt over his face and looking through the webbing and picking weeds out of the grass. i never saw a lot of hustle out of him and that was frustrating.

but back to jose- i get very happy thinking about how he is no longer on this team. i like to tease dodger fans about their great pick-up.:manos "Choo don't dig my stache, mayn?"

Jjav829
02-21-2005, 02:16 PM
OK - putting aside that trade from a Sox standpoint - meaning forget the fact that it allowed the Sox to get several other players after Lee's salary dump - that was an awesome trade for the Brewers.

:worship:

Reason gets lost around here sometimes.

Some of you people need to actually read what he said and get past this idea that everything is written with a bias against the Sox. The bottom line is that anyone - and I guarantee you anyone - who has an ounce of baseball intelligence and no Sox bias sees the Lee trade as a great one for the Brewers. Neither Podsednik nor Vizcaino is going to win anything for the Brewers. They already have a capable replacement for Podsednik in Brady Clark, who isn't the same threat to steal, but should be able to get on base at the same rate as Podsednik. They also have Dave Krynzel who might be a year away from being ready. Vizcaino is just another middle reliever. Would they have liked to keep him? Sure. Their bullpen isn't great and they could use Vizcaino. But the bottom line is you don't reject a trade for a player like Carlos Lee because you don't want to part with a decent middle reliever. In return they got the power-hitting, right-handed bat they so desperately needed. This was a great trade for the Brewers. Look away from the Sox for a second and you'll see that. If the trade was reversed and we were the ones trading a decent middle reliever and a leadoff hitter coming off a horrible year for a guy that could put up .300/30/100 numbers from the left side of the plate (our equivalent to their right-handed need), some of you same people would be calling it the steal of the century. Just because you acknowledge that the other team got a lot out of the trade, that doesn't mean you have to acknowledge the Sox got ripped off. We all know what followed the trade and it doesn't need to be repeated. Both teams benefited. The Sox benefited from what they were able to do with the money they saved as well as the players they received in exchange. But there's no doubt that the Brewers benefited greatly from the player they received.

As for the "least recognizable" label; once again, don't overreact. I'm sure he meant it more in the sense of the Sox having a lot of new faces, not the Sox having players who no one knows about. He also put the Dodgers on there. The Dodgers made a lot of changes as well, but they brought in big names such as Drew and Kent. See the point?

Neither of these things were meant as put-downs for the Sox, but yet some people always have to interpret as such.

mcfish
02-21-2005, 02:31 PM
2. Brewers get a legit middle-of-the-order thumper (Carlos Lee (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6161)) from the White Sox for a package headed by not-so-up-and-coming Scott Podsednik (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6489) who, oh by the way, is actually three months older than Lee.

3. A's get the ultimate Moneyball catcher (Jason Kendall (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5562)) for the two pitchers GM Billy Beane most wanted to get 3,000 miles away from -- Arthur Rhodes (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4736) and Mark Redman (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6285).I never read Moneyball and I never intend to, but from my understanding of the concept, wouldn't Kendall be a little bit less of a moneyball player just because he costs so much? He has a huge contract coming for the next 2 years I think.

On a similar note, I think Lee costs too much already and is going to command far too much next offseason, especially when all of our minor league strength is in the OF. I'm glad we were able to send him off in a decent trade rather than either overspending for him next year or letting him walk in free agency.

JRIG
02-21-2005, 02:47 PM
I never read Moneyball and I never intend to, but from my understanding of the concept, wouldn't Kendall be a little bit less of a moneyball player just because he costs so much? He has a huge contract coming for the next 2 years I think.


Yes, you are correct. "Moneyball" means making the most of your money and finding undervalued players. "Moneyball" does not equal OBP. It just happened at the time that's what was undervalued.

Kendall is just a great player, period. He makes a ton of money though. This is a case where Beane felt he needed another high OBP guy and had to shed two big contracts (Redmnan and Rhodes) which is what he did.

WhiteSoxFan84
02-21-2005, 02:54 PM
Why is there this prevailing notion that it was such a great move for the Brewers? How many players can steal 70 bases? Maybe a small handful? And how many players can hit 30 homers with 100 RBIs? Well, I just went and counted the players from last season who were approx. 30 HR/100 RBI players, and I counted 42!!

Plus, the Brewers gave up a strong arm from their pen. And let's not forget, CLee isn't exactly the prettiest fielder, nor is his head always in the game.

So, why exactly was this such a friggin' STEAL for Milwaukee?

Adding on to that, Carlos will be a free agent soon and will command at least $8,000,000 per year (IMO) is he repeats last seasons performance.

JRIG
02-21-2005, 03:02 PM
Adding on to that, Carlos will be a free agent soon and will command at least $8,000,000 per year (IMO) is he repeats last seasons performance.

Ummm, Lee is already making $8 million this year. I think he has an option for $8.5 million next year.

WhiteSoxFan84
02-21-2005, 03:03 PM
Ummm, Lee is already making $8 million this year. I think he has an option for $8.5 million next year.

Are you sure it's not $6,000,000? I thought Konerko was making $8,000,000, not Lee?

JRIG
02-21-2005, 03:06 PM
Are you sure it's not $6,000,000? I thought Konerko was making $8,000,000, not Lee?

Lee was at $6.5 million last season, $8 million this year. Konerko was $8 million last year and $8.75 this year.

Bucky F. Dent
02-21-2005, 03:08 PM
So, we're supposed to evaluate this trade solely based on the fact that Podsednik is older than Lee?

No reference to Vicaino, no reference to their production or how they might help their teams, just their age?

Thanks for that wonderful insight, Jason!

Ol' No. 2
02-21-2005, 03:10 PM
So, we're supposed to evaluate this trade solely based on the fact that Podsednik is older than Lee?

No reference to Vicaino, no reference to their production or how they might help their teams, just their age?

Thanks for that wonderful insight, Jason!Pretty much the kind of well-researched, objective reporting we've come to expect from Mr. Stark.

fusillirob1983
02-21-2005, 03:14 PM
He was just saying it was a good trade for the Brewers. It wasn't a list of the worst trades.

FedEx227
02-21-2005, 03:25 PM
Did I forget something....but

Podz stole 70 bases last year...more than Carl Crawford, Carlos Beltran, and Juan Pierre? Has anybody GIVEN HIM ANY recognition for that, this past week has been ridiculous everything I read puts the Sox down, while talks up teams that didn't do anything all off season (Cubs), and teams that are based on absolutely nothing but potential (Indians)....I just want this season to get going so we can fly under that radar.

JRIG
02-21-2005, 03:37 PM
Did I forget something....but

Podz stole 70 bases last year...more than Carl Crawford, Carlos Beltran, and Juan Pierre? Has anybody GIVEN HIM ANY recognition for that,

And his OBP was a very crappy .313. If you want a fast guy who can't get on base, we already have Willie Harris.

That said, he should rebound slightly, but I predict his OBP will be closer to the .313 of last year than the .379 of 2003.

Chisox003
02-21-2005, 03:56 PM
I think Pods OBP will be somewhere between his 03-04 seasons...Not as bad as .313, but not as good as .380...

That said, I hope he goes out and proves all his critics wrong because he sure has a lot of them...

Same thing for this entire team....The Sox are RARELY recognized, and when they are its almost always negative (Where was all this C-Lee publicity when he was HERE?? Same with MAGS!!)....

Several times a day there are threads started concerning another article dissing the Sox...The best thing that could happen this year is the Sox go out and win win win...Go Go 2005

41 days and counting

Dadawg_77
02-21-2005, 04:04 PM
:worship:

Reason gets lost around here sometimes.

Neither of these things were meant as put-downs for the Sox, but yet some people always have to interpret as such.

People here are believe this team is going to win it all, so anything that says they won't or even hints at it must be discredited no matter the rational behind it.

pudge
02-21-2005, 04:15 PM
:worship:

Reason gets lost around here sometimes.

Some of you people need to actually read what he said and get past this idea that everything is written with a bias against the Sox. The bottom line is that anyone - and I guarantee you anyone - who has an ounce of baseball intelligence and no Sox bias sees the Lee trade as a great one for the Brewers. Neither Podsednik nor Vizcaino is going to win anything for the Brewers. They already have a capable replacement for Podsednik in Brady Clark, who isn't the same threat to steal, but should be able to get on base at the same rate as Podsednik. They also have Dave Krynzel who might be a year away from being ready. Vizcaino is just another middle reliever.

Look, I am not a Sox kool-aid drinker, but I think there's an awful lot of Carlos Lee kool-aid going around lately too. You say the Brewers weren't going to win anything with Podsednik and Vizcaino, and I say they aren't going to win squat with Carlos Lee either. It's just more of a wash for me than some kind of GREAT move by the Brewers.

Dadawg_77
02-21-2005, 04:16 PM
Did I forget something....but
while talks up teams that didn't do anything all off season (Cubs), and teams that are based on absolutely nothing but potential (Indians)....I just want this season to get going so we can fly under that radar.

The Cubs have one of the best staffs in baseball, three aces on the team and one crafty veteran. Their pen could hold them back and their offense will.

The Tribe scored 858 runs for the fifth most in the majors last year. Their pitching killed them. Lee should improve and Millwood should be better then Ealrton or Davis. The biggest question is their pen, if it can produce, they have a great shot at winning the division. If not, they will be slightly above 500 team.

Dadawg_77
02-21-2005, 04:19 PM
Look, I am not a Sox kool-aid drinker, but I think there's an awful lot of Carlos Lee kool-aid going around lately too. You say the Brewers weren't going to win anything with Podsednik and Vizcaino, and I say they aren't going to win squat with Carlos Lee either. It's just more of a wash for me than some kind of GREAT move by the Brewers.

The Brewers were 29th in runs scored last year and were 12th in team ERA. Carlos will help that rise the run total and pitching should improve with a year experience. Will they win their division, no but could finish above .500 which would be a major improvement for them.

SoxxoS
02-21-2005, 04:28 PM
And his OBP was a very crappy .313. If you want a fast guy who can't get on base, we already have Willie Harris.

That said, he should rebound slightly, but I predict his OBP will be closer to the .313 of last year than the .379 of 2003.

Speed means nothing if you can't steal bases. Willie can't steal or hit.

MRKARNO
02-21-2005, 04:29 PM
Going back on topic, let's compare the 2004 Opening day White Sox to the 2005 Opening day White Sox:

2004:
Harris 2B
Valentin SS
Ordonez RF
Thomas DH
Lee LF
Konerko 1b
Crede 3B
Rowand CF
Alomar C

SP1 Mark Buehrle
SP2 Loaiza
SP3 Garland
SP4 Schoeneweis
SP5 Danny Wright

CL Koch
SU Marte
SU Politte
RP1 Takatsu
RP2 Jackson
RP3 Cotts

2005 Opening Day White Sox:
*Indicates not on 2004 Opening Day squad

Podsednik CF*
Iguchi 2B*
Konerko 1B
Dye RF*
Everett DH*
Rowand LF
Uribe SS
Pierzynski C*
Crede 3B

SP1 Mark Buehrle
SP2 Freddy Garcia*
SP3 Jose Contreras*
SP4 Orlando Hernandez*
SP5 Jon Garland

CL Takatsu
SU Hermanson*
SU Marte
RP Politte
RP Vizcaino*
RP Cotts

There was a ridiculous amount of turnover for a team with so much talent over the course of one year, so it is entirely fair to say that it is the least recognizable.

Regarding the Brewers trade, yeah it was a coup for them, but the trade ended up being a coup for us as well, based on what we did with the resources freed from the trade. It was the perfect Win-Win trade.

pudge
02-21-2005, 04:36 PM
The Brewers were 29th in runs scored last year and were 12th in team ERA. Carlos will help that rise the run total and pitching should improve with a year experience. Will they win their division, no but could finish above .500 which would be a major improvement for them.

Well heck, 29th in runs scored, it's not going to be tough to improve that run total. It'll be interesting to see how much Carlos really does help.

OurBitchinMinny
02-21-2005, 04:55 PM
Without considering the signings after the trade, the clear trade winner was the brewers. Posednik and Lee are not even comprable players and middle relievers are a dime a dozen. But it turned out to work for the sox because they didnt sit on their hands and do nothing. But the brewers made out great

Ol' No. 2
02-21-2005, 04:57 PM
Why does every trade have to result in one team getting fleeced? Both teams traded what they had a surplus of and got what they needed in return. What's so hard to understand about that?

OurBitchinMinny
02-21-2005, 04:58 PM
Look, I am not a Sox kool-aid drinker, but I think there's an awful lot of Carlos Lee kool-aid going around lately too. You say the Brewers weren't going to win anything with Podsednik and Vizcaino, and I say they aren't going to win squat with Carlos Lee either. It's just more of a wash for me than some kind of GREAT move by the Brewers.


How? They got rid of a guy who hit .240, didnt get on base and isnt a gold glover and a middle reliever for a guy who puts up .300 30 and 100 pretty much every year and has vastly improved in the field. The move eventually helped the sox, but at face value, advantage brewers.

OEO Magglio
02-21-2005, 04:59 PM
And his OBP was a very crappy .313. If you want a fast guy who can't get on base, we already have Willie Harris.

That said, he should rebound slightly, but I predict his OBP will be closer to the .313 of last year than the .379 of 2003.
It's funny cause even though Scott hit terribly last year he still scored more runs then Mark Kotsay and averaged more runs per at bat then Shannon Stewart, two leadoff guys with high obp but don't run much.

Jabroni
02-21-2005, 05:00 PM
Without considering the signings after the trade, the clear trade winner was the brewers. Posednik and Lee are not even comprable players and middle relievers are a dime a dozen. But it turned out to work for the sox because they didnt sit on their hands and do nothing. But the brewers made out greatMiddle relievers may be a dime a dozen but GOOD middle relievers are not. Just look at the 2004 Indians and the 2005 Cubs. They would love to have Luis Vizcaino.

Chisox003
02-21-2005, 05:02 PM
It's funny cause even though Scott hit terribly last year he still scored more runs then Mark Kotsay and averaged more runs per at bat then Shannon Stewart, two leadoff guys with high obp but don't run much.

Great point...

So what do you think would make Pods REALLY effective.... maybe around a .275-280 avg, which raises his OBP, meaning more steals, leading to more runs...

If a .240 avg and .313 obp gets you ahead of those guys, I cant wait to see what he can do hittin at the top of our lineup

Palehose13
02-21-2005, 05:03 PM
Why does every trade have to result in one team getting fleeced? Both teams traded what they had a surplus of and got what they needed in return. What's so hard to understand about that?

:dunno:

I thought I had posted rationale and reasonable opinions of the trade and the "least recognized" tag. I must have written those with invisible ink.

Jerome
02-21-2005, 05:21 PM
The Cubs have one of the best staffs in baseball, three aces on the team and one crafty veteran. Their pen could hold them back and their offense will.

The Tribe scored 858 runs for the fifth most in the majors last year. Their pitching killed them. Lee should improve and Millwood should be better then Ealrton or Davis. The biggest question is their pen, if it can produce, they have a great shot at winning the division. If not, they will be slightly above 500 team.

Shhh...

You don't want to let that logic get in the way of everyone's White Sox World series parades. Go over to NSBB and post that anti-Sox Kool-Aid.

Jjav829
02-21-2005, 07:14 PM
Look, I am not a Sox kool-aid drinker, but I think there's an awful lot of Carlos Lee kool-aid going around lately too. You say the Brewers weren't going to win anything with Podsednik and Vizcaino, and I say they aren't going to win squat with Carlos Lee either. It's just more of a wash for me than some kind of GREAT move by the Brewers.

I've never changed my opinion on Carlos Lee, including the times when he struggled severely and everyone said to trade him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Carlos Lee makes them a contender. But the minute he joined the Brewers, he was immediately the biggest ofensive threat on that team. How many teams can say they made a trade like that this offseason? They traded a player coming off a year with a .313 OBP, and a middle reliever who has never been consistent for a guy who is a legitimate right-handed, middle-of-the-order, power hitter. It's a great trade for them.

Dadawg_77
02-21-2005, 07:45 PM
It's funny cause even though Scott hit terribly last year he still scored more runs then Mark Kotsay and averaged more runs per at bat then Shannon Stewart, two leadoff guys with high obp but don't run much.

Scott help his chances of scoring with 70 SB at a 84% clip. But you forgot the biggest reason for scoring runs, are the guys behind you. The Sox had better hitters 2-6 spot then Oakland and the Brewers. Thus guy who gets on base more often scores more. Look at Damon for a good comparison.

Dadawg_77
02-21-2005, 07:48 PM
Middle relievers may be a dime a dozen but GOOD middle relievers are not. Just look at the 2004 Indians and the 2005 Cubs. They would love to have Luis Vizcaino.

Yeah the 2004 version but they had the 2003 version abit a different name last year. So which version do we get this year?

Dadawg_77
02-21-2005, 07:49 PM
Why does every trade have to result in one team getting fleeced? Both teams traded what they had a surplus of and got what they needed in return. What's so hard to understand about that?

Because people like to think of trades as zero sum events.

MRKARNO
02-21-2005, 07:53 PM
Yeah the 2004 version but they had the 2003 version abit a different name last year. So which version do we get this year?

The 2005 version.:D:

Seriously, probably not a good version of Vizcaino as he is an extreme flyball pitcher (.72 last year, .70 the year before) and gave up a ton of longballs (12 last year and 16 the year before). I'm pessimistic about his chances with the White Sox.

rwcescato
02-22-2005, 08:06 AM
OK - putting aside that trade from a Sox standpoint - meaning forget the fact that it allowed the Sox to get several other players after Lee's salary dump - that was an awesome trade for the Brewers.

The only way to stop all the negative talk is to win. All the experts are going to doubt what we did. There has never been positive things said about Chicago White Sox moves since 1994 when we were favored to win the World Series.
All of our starting pitchers produce, we will win. Has anyone thought about
what the fundamental area will do to our park? It was a hitters park last year but who is to say that knocking the billboard down in left field won't knock down more HRs hit to left. Just a thought.
Rich

Palehose13
02-22-2005, 08:10 AM
Has anyone thought about
what the fundamental area will do to our park? It was a hitters park last year but who is to say that knocking the billboard down in left field won't knock down more HRs hit to left. Just a thought.
Rich

Actually, no. I haven't thought about it, but that is an excellent point. The "new" roof turned Comiskey into Coors East. Who knows what effect the fundamentals area will have on the park? Maybe the lack of billboard will allow wind from the lake?

OEO Magglio
02-22-2005, 04:14 PM
Scott help his chances of scoring with 70 SB at a 84% clip. But you forgot the biggest reason for scoring runs, are the guys behind you. The Sox had better hitters 2-6 spot then Oakland and the Brewers. Thus guy who gets on base more often scores more. Look at Damon for a good comparison.
I'm just saying there is so much talk around here that scott is not a very good player. I'm just making a comparison that through a down year Scott was still able to produce a decent amount as a leadoff hitter for a bad team.

kitekrazy
02-24-2005, 02:10 PM
Why does every trade have to result in one team getting fleeced? Both teams traded what they had a surplus of and got what they needed in return. What's so hard to understand about that?

The Sox also seem to have a loaded bullpen. That could come in handy midseason for trade material.

The Sox don't get any attention because they have won a Series in a long time, no idiots like Sosa, no suspected roid users.

Plus the article came from ESPN. They've become nothing but a crap media organization. Why should I be surprised.