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View Full Version : Rozner on Thomas Yesterday on MJ&H


TornLabrum
02-19-2005, 08:03 AM
I love the media. No sooner do the Sox make the announcement that Thomas's doctor says he won't be ready until sometime in March than Rozner starts with the dumping on Thomas.

He was guest hosting yesterday on MJ&H. Basically his comment was that he should be there to show his teammates that he supports them and is with them. As Matt Spiegle noted, however, "What can he do when he's there? His own doctor says he's not ready."

"He needs to be there for his teammates," was Rozner's reply.

Why? Isn't he better off being with his own medical people under their supervision?

Rozner then talked about how he could see it coming that Thomas would be late arriving because of his past history. What past history is that? As I recall, Thomas has generally made it on time to camp. My memory is that it was a steroid-infested right fielder for another team who was perpetually late in reporting for spring training. Am I wrong about Thomas being on time?

So once again Thomas does nothing wrong and gets crucified by the media for no ******* reason.

Whoever talked about Rozner being a good sportswriter, I hope you re-evaluate.

samram
02-19-2005, 08:19 AM
Perhaps Rozner is auditioning for a permanent role in the Roadhouse.

PHG: Well, we're pretty well filled up at that spot with Mariotti, North, Murphy, maybe even Morrisey. I'm not sure we can fit you in.

Rozner: Look, I can do it all. I'll criticize Frank for even the slightest thing. Maybe I can throw some steroid abuse rumors around about Konerko and Frank. I'll treat every Cub uncertainty as an opportunity and every Sox uncertainty as a hole. You can't beat that combination.

PHG: (Nods head). Well, your qualifications are certainly impressive. We'll let you know.

MRKARNO
02-19-2005, 09:09 AM
So once again Thomas does nothing wrong and gets crucified by the media for no ******* reason.


And if you read the Phil Rogers article today, it happened again. The gist of it was "Frank, you're not welcome on the White Sox anymore and you've in the midst of playing your last season" when Kenny WIlliams has said nothing of the like. His argument was that the White Sox wanted to play more NL-type ball, but last time I checked, Albert Pujols, Barry Bonds, Edmonds, Berkman, Drew, Rolen....all fit fine on an NL team last year. Also, what Kenny said was that he wants an NL feel on the whole, but an AL-like middle of the order, which would be consistant with keeping Frank.

RKMeibalane
02-19-2005, 09:39 AM
I had a feeling this was going to happen. Why can't the media just mind their own business? If they're not going to pay attention to the Sox when things are going well, then they shouldn't when things aren't going as well, either. Furthermore, I don't see what Frank did wrong here? He and Williams agreed that he would return in March. What makes Rozner, the Cubune, or anyone else think they have the right to tell the Sox organization how to conduct its business?

:windsock:

"LOOK AT US! LOOK AT US! LOOK AT US!"

Yeah, we're looking at you, Jay. All of you (in the media) look like ****.

Maximo
02-19-2005, 09:42 AM
I love the media. No sooner do the Sox make the announcement that Thomas's doctor says he won't be ready until sometime in March than Rozner starts with the dumping on Thomas.

He was guest hosting yesterday on MJ&H. Basically his comment was that he should be there to show his teammates that he supports them and is with them. As Matt Spiegle noted, however, "What can he do when he's there? His own doctor says he's not ready."

"He needs to be there for his teammates," was Rozner's reply.

Why? Isn't he better off being with his own medical people under their supervision?

Rozner then talked about how he could see it coming that Thomas would be late arriving because of his past history. What past history is that? As I recall, Thomas has generally made it on time to camp. My memory is that it was a steroid-infested right fielder for another team who was perpetually late in reporting for spring training. Am I wrong about Thomas being on time?

So once again Thomas does nothing wrong and gets crucified by the media for no ******* reason.

Whoever talked about Rozner being a good sportswriter, I hope you re-evaluate.

Interesting......when Sammy always showed up late in Mesa the majority of scribes said ......."visa problems".

RKMeibalane
02-19-2005, 09:43 AM
Interesting......when Sammy always showed up late in Mesa the majority of scribes said ......."visa problems".

I wonder what the Cubune will do once Sosa is late to Orioles camp. I'm sure they'll continue making excuses for him.

DrCrawdad
02-19-2005, 10:03 AM
I wonder what the Cubune will do once Sosa is late to Orioles camp. I'm sure they'll continue making excuses for him.

Did you forget to put that in teal? You can bet that if Sosa is late the Cubune will be sure to lambast Sosa. IIRC in Sosa's previous seasons with the Cubbies the Cubune always made sure to point out that Sammy was not technically late, he would arrive on the very last day that players had to report.

For example, Monday is the day players are reporting. Sosa usually would not want to arrive on Monday with the general populace. Sosa normally would report sometime after Monday but supposedly not technically late.

You can bet though that if Sosa follows that same pattern this year, the Cubune won't explain it as they did in the past, they'll blast him saying that it's further proof that Sosa is a bad teammate.

Dadawg_77
02-19-2005, 10:03 AM
And if you read the Phil Rogers article today, it happened again. The gist of it was "Frank, you're not welcome on the White Sox anymore and you've in the midst of playing your last season" when Kenny WIlliams has said nothing of the like. His argument was that the White Sox wanted to play more NL-type ball, but last time I checked, Albert Pujols, Barry Bonds, Edmonds, Berkman, Drew, Rolen....all fit fine on an NL team last year. Also, what Kenny said was that he wants an NL feel on the whole, but an AL-like middle of the order, which would be consistant with keeping Frank.

Kenny's anti-Frank feelings seem to be simmering. Someone, I think Steph, posted his reaction to JR redoing Frank's deal when the clause was invoked also his reaction to Frank's injury last year. That being said, Kenny knows he can't just crap on Frank for that more problems then it is worth. But the general feeling is sadly this is Frank's last year with the team.

DrCrawdad
02-19-2005, 10:11 AM
Kenny's anti-Frank feelings seem to be simmering. Someone, I think Steph, posted his reaction to JR redoing Frank's deal when the clause was invoked also his reaction to Frank's injury last year. That being said, Kenny knows he can't just crap on Frank for that more problems then it is worth. But the general feeling is sadly this is Frank's last year with the team.

I know Reinsdorf's said this before, that he wants Frank to spend his whole career in White Sox uniform. If this is Frank's last year, then send him off in style. If Frank wants to play a couple more years, or another year. I sure the (heck) hope Frank does it with the Sox. The Sox accommodated an aging Harold Baines. They sure as (feces) should do the same for Frank Thomas, the best hitter anyone has seen play for a Chicago team.

RKMeibalane
02-19-2005, 10:22 AM
Update: I read through the most recent article posted on Whitesox.com, and I got the impression that Frank is not even allowed to go to Arizona until he meets with Dr. Ferkel (the physician who performed the surgery) in Los Angeles sometime within the next two weeks. The Chicago media has solidified their reputation as being half-assed journalists.

RichFitztightly
02-19-2005, 10:37 AM
Interesting......when Sammy always showed up late in Mesa the majority of scribes said ......."visa problems".

Actually, I've heard them give an even more rediculous excuse. At least one media report I've seen that's stuck with me all these years said the reason why Sosa shows up late is because he showed up late to Spring Training the year he blew up the Homerun total in his stats. Therefore, as good luck, he now shows up late for Spring Training because we all know how superstitious baseball players are.

Notice it's not teal. I wish I were being sarcastic with the reason.

RKMeibalane
02-19-2005, 10:47 AM
Actually, I've heard them give an even more rediculous excuse. At least one media report I've seen that's stuck with me all these years said the reason why Sosa shows up late is because he showed up late to Spring Training the year he blew up the Homerun total in his stats. Therefore, as good luck, he now shows up late for Spring Training because we all know how superstitious baseball players are.

Notice it's not teal. I wish I were being sarcastic with the reason.

I've heard that one before, as well. There's no limit to how far the media will go to protect or tear down the reputation of an athlete.

CarlosMay'sThumb
02-19-2005, 10:52 AM
So once again Thomas does nothing wrong and gets crucified by the media for no ******* reason.



No reason? This is the same guy who has moped around spring training for years, even going so far as to go AWOL over a contract that he signed! Remember when he publically embarassed his manager by refusing to perform shuttle drills? Frank and the Sox have created this problem about when he will report this year by not being completely honest about how badly he's injured and how slow his recovery is. Only Ozzie told the truth when he has consistently said Frank won't be back until June.

Jabroni
02-19-2005, 10:54 AM
No reason? This is the same guy who has moped around spring training for years, even going so far as to go AWOL over a contract that he signed! Remember when he publically embarassed his manager by refusing to perform shuttle drills? Frank and the Sox have created this problem about when he will report this year by not being completely honest about how badly he's injured and how slow his recovery is. Only Ozzie told the truth when he has consistently said Frank won't be back until June.CarlosMay'sThumb, are you related to HomeFish in any way? All of your posts (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=42449) seem to have the same theme.

RKMeibalane
02-19-2005, 10:56 AM
No reason? This is the same guy who has moped around spring training for years, even going so far as to go AWOL over a contract that he signed! Remember when he publically embarassed his manager by refusing to perform shuttle drills? Frank and the Sox have created this problem about when he will report this year by not being completely honest about how badly he's injured and how slow his recovery is. Only Ozzie told the truth when he has consistently said Frank won't be back until June.

Ozzie saying that Frank won't back until June is speculation. Speculation does not equal truth. Furthermore, let's not forget that Jerry Manuel went out of his way to humiliate Frank several times during the course of their six seasons together. As much as Manuel might think otherwise, he wasn't "Mr. Innocent" in that whole ordeal.

Finally, how exactly was Frank being dishonest about his injury? The last time he spoke to the media, he said that he was dissapointed about the way the 2004 season ended, and that he would be exercising his option to return in 2005. He also said he was going to do his best to get back by the start of the season. We have no proof whatsoever that he hasn't done that.

The arguments the Frank-haters use to justify their position are getting more and more ridiculous all the time.

RKMeibalane
02-19-2005, 10:57 AM
CarlosMay'sThumb, are you related to HomeFish in any way? All of your posts (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=42449) seem to have the same theme.

I really couldn't have said it better myself. The negativity on this board is becoming a problem again. It's shades of last August.

Kalish
02-19-2005, 11:08 AM
And if you read the Phil Rogers article today, it happened again. The gist of it was "Frank, you're not welcome on the White Sox anymore and you've in the midst of playing your last season" when Kenny WIlliams has said nothing of the like. His argument was that the White Sox wanted to play more NL-type ball, but last time I checked, Albert Pujols, Barry Bonds, Edmonds, Berkman, Drew, Rolen....all fit fine on an NL team last year. Also, what Kenny said was that he wants an NL feel on the whole, but an AL-like middle of the order, which would be consistant with keeping Frank.

Totally agree. Rogers is just talking out of his ass.

DrCrawdad
02-19-2005, 11:10 AM
CarlosMay'sThumb, are you related to HomeFish in any way? All of your posts (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=42449) seem to have the same theme.

FYI CarlosMay'sThumb (CMT) was one of seven that voted NO to Frank going into the HoF. Many of those who voted NO are :dtroll:

Birds of a feather?

SSN721
02-19-2005, 11:14 AM
FYI CarlosMay'sThumb (CMT) was one of seven that voted NO to Frank going into the HoF. Many of those who voted NO are :dtroll:

Birds of a feather?

Sounds about right, You would have to be pretty biased against Frank to not recognize his right to be in the Hall, even if his career ended now, which I hope that it doesnt. i think Frank did everything the right way regarding this injury, he wasnt lazy to get surgery at the end of the year, I dont know how many times that argument needs to be made over and over again. I think somewhere between June and Opening day is the closest anyone can guess though. But anyone would have to recognize a healthy Frank is a healthy White Sox squad.

Fake Chet Lemon
02-19-2005, 11:14 AM
We all may be over-analyzing. It's the first few days of spring training and in in reality there IS NOTHING to really write about. They can't write "and Mark Burle had a fantastic wind sprint today". So they have to manufacture a story. It's a shame they have to pick on Frank again, but he is the long-term star of the team. A story on the exploits of D. Marte won't sell any papers or generate any buzz. Once Frank reports none of this crap written this week will stick. It will all be forgotten and once Frank takes over the DH slot from Everett he will put up some monster numbers this year.

DrCrawdad
02-19-2005, 11:20 AM
...Frank and the Sox have created this problem about when he will report this year by not being completely honest about how badly he's injured and how slow his recovery is. Only Ozzie told the truth when he has consistently said Frank won't be back until June.

How have the Sox and Frank not been "completely honest about how badly he's injured and how slow his recovery is?" Please explain and/or give examples of dishonesty.

BainesHOF
02-19-2005, 11:41 AM
Rozner is Cubby Boy and a self promoter.

gosox41
02-19-2005, 11:46 AM
And if you read the Phil Rogers article today, it happened again. The gist of it was "Frank, you're not welcome on the White Sox anymore and you've in the midst of playing your last season" when Kenny WIlliams has said nothing of the like. His argument was that the White Sox wanted to play more NL-type ball, but last time I checked, Albert Pujols, Barry Bonds, Edmonds, Berkman, Drew, Rolen....all fit fine on an NL team last year. Also, what Kenny said was that he wants an NL feel on the whole, but an AL-like middle of the order, which would be consistant with keeping Frank.

These two idiots are good reasons I started my keep Frank poll.

By Phil Rogers logic, Frank is nothing but a slow power hitter. If he doesn't fit in with the team, maybe someone can explain why the Sox will most likely pay for a slower less powerful hitter this offseason when they re-sign PK.


Bob

santo=dorf
02-19-2005, 11:50 AM
I really couldn't have said it better myself. The negativity on this board is becoming a problem again. It's shades of last August.
CMT is also one of the three posters to vote "no" for Thomas being a hall of famer.

I lost respect for Rozner a few weeks ago when he was on Murph's show during the middle of a cubs lovefest talking about how the Tribune was cheap, and Beltran should have been the starting centerfielder on opening day because "he wanted to come here." :rolleyes:

BainesHOF
02-19-2005, 12:00 PM
I lost respect for Rozner a few weeks ago when he was on Murph's show during the middle of a cubs lovefest talking about how the Tribune was cheap, and Beltran should have been the starting centerfielder on opening day because "he wanted to come here." :rolleyes:

This kind of talk always cracks me up. Don't Cubs fans know many players couldn't care less about playing for their team, but simply use such talk as a negotiating ploy?

DrCrawdad
02-19-2005, 12:25 PM
This kind of talk always cracks me up. Don't Cubs fans know many players couldn't care less about playing for their team, but simply use such talk as a negotiating ploy?

No, many Cubbie fans don't seem to realize they're being played. Magglio, Beltran, I-Rod and others have had deluded Cubbie fans believing that these players in their hearts wanted to be Cubbies.

The only player I can think of who really wanted to be a Cubbie was Jim Thome and the Cubbies didn't want him. Ah, but the Cubbies had "can't miss prospect Hee Sop Choi" and the Cubbies couldn't have used Thome's 89 HR and 236 RBI the last two years.

CarlosMay'sThumb
02-19-2005, 12:29 PM
How have the Sox and Frank not been "completely honest about how badly he's injured and how slow his recovery is?" Please explain and/or give examples of dishonesty.

I know it sounds like I'm a "Frank hater" but I think that's in comparison to all the "Frank-lovers" on this board. I would be very surprised if there were a large number of objective people who thought Frank Thomas should be in the HOF. He was a great hitter, but a horrible fielder at the easiest position to play, by far, on the baseball field. He was taken off the field not because of injury but because he was just bad. I also can't forget the times he has put himself before the team - like going AWOL (a la Sammy Sosa) over his contract that he signed! How can you blame Manuel for forcing Thomas to run a drill?

As for Kenny being less than honest about Frank's injury how about these story lines or quotes:

Williams expects Frank Thomas to be ready at some point during Spring Training. (mlb.com 12/11/04)

That report put Thomas "on schedule for mid-March," Williams said.

White Sox general manager Ken Williams had said that the two-time American League MVP was expected to report with the rest of the position players. (AP 2/18/05)

Corey McPherrin just reported on Fox that Big Frank is coming along faster than anyone expected, and if all goes well will be in the line-up opening day. And he will be in camp on Monday.

DrCrawdad
02-19-2005, 12:53 PM
I know it sounds like I'm a "Frank hater" but I think that's in comparison to all the "Frank-lovers" on this board. I would be very surprised if there were a large number of objective people who thought Frank Thomas should be in the HOF. He was a great hitter, but a horrible fielder at the easiest position to play, by far, on the baseball field. He was taken off the field not because of injury but because he was just bad. I also can't forget the times he has put himself before the team - like going AWOL (a la Sammy Sosa) over his contract that he signed! How can you blame Manuel for forcing Thomas to run a drill?

:whoflungpoo

Yeah, anyone who respects what Frank has accomplished and speaks in his defense is not objective and can be dismissed as a "Frank-lover."

IMO your comments expose you and put you squarely in the camp of those who lack objectivity. I don't suppose any amount of FACTS presented in the HoF discussion would convince you.

As for Kenny being less than honest about Frank's injury how about these story lines or quotes:

Williams expects Frank Thomas to be ready at some point during Spring Training. (mlb.com 12/11/04)

That report put Thomas "on schedule for mid-March," Williams said.

White Sox general manager Ken Williams had said that the two-time American League MVP was expected to report with the rest of the position players. (AP 2/18/05)

Corey McPherrin just reported on Fox that Big Frank is coming along faster than anyone expected, and if all goes well will be in the line-up opening day. And he will be in camp on Monday.

Ok, where and how are any of these examples of dishonesty?

Oh, and one other question for you, are you a Cub fan?

MRKARNO
02-19-2005, 12:56 PM
I would be very surprised if there were a large number of objective people who thought Frank Thomas should be in the HOF. He was a great hitter, but a horrible fielder at the easiest position to play, by far, on the baseball field. He was taken off the field not because of injury but because he was just bad.

Every single article that I've read from the national media that has brought up the question has stated that they think that Frank Thomas is surely a Hall of Famer and that it is especially known on the inner-circles of the Hall of Fame voters that he should be in there. A TON of objective people think he should be in the hall of fame. His hitting ability is among the best for a right handed power hitter in the history of the game. He is also one of the patient hitters in baseball history. There is one righty in THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL with a better OBP than him, Roger Hornsby. Jimmy Foxx is right behind Frank, but even if Frank falls a bit at the end of his career, it is difficult to imagine he could be any worse than the third best righty all time for OBP. He also ranks highly in OPS, SLG%, HRs, and walks. Thomas is a clear-cut hall of famer in spite of his defense.

santo=dorf
02-19-2005, 01:08 PM
CMT, should Ozzie Smith be in the HOF? :?:

TornLabrum
02-19-2005, 01:20 PM
Kenny's anti-Frank feelings seem to be simmering. Someone, I think Steph, posted his reaction to JR redoing Frank's deal when the clause was invoked also his reaction to Frank's injury last year. That being said, Kenny knows he can't just crap on Frank for that more problems then it is worth. But the general feeling is sadly this is Frank's last year with the team.

On MJ&H the other day, KW said that only Thomas knows his own body and that he will know when he is ready. So that's his public stance on all of this.

dpbyron
02-19-2005, 01:21 PM
Rozner is Cubby Boy and a self promoter.

Rozner a Cubby Boy?! C'mon!

I have read his columns on a regular basis for years now. He was the ONLY reporter in this city to rip Sosa looooooooooong before it became cool to do so. He is the most objective writer in the city.

In fact, in 2002 I wrote him about Sosa's antics and he actually put it in his article, including me calling him Sam-Me. Click here for the archive... (http://home.comcast.net/~dpbyron/Sam-MeArticle.htm)

I did not agree with his thoughts about how Thomas should go to camp, but you can't argue the fact that Thomas ha s said and done some stupid things over the years. As a result, the fact that Thomas is really a nice STERIOD-FREE guy gets lost.

TornLabrum
02-19-2005, 01:21 PM
Update: I read through the most recent article posted on Whitesox.com, and I got the impression that Frank is not even allowed to go to Arizona until he meets with Dr. Ferkel (the physician who performed the surgery) in Los Angeles sometime within the next two weeks. The Chicago media has solidified their reputation as being half-assed journalists.

Which is why my answer was "Nobody" in the thread asking who the best Chicago baseball writer was.

TornLabrum
02-19-2005, 01:26 PM
No reason? This is the same guy who has moped around spring training for years, even going so far as to go AWOL over a contract that he signed! Remember when he publically embarassed his manager by refusing to perform shuttle drills? Frank and the Sox have created this problem about when he will report this year by not being completely honest about how badly he's injured and how slow his recovery is. Only Ozzie told the truth when he has consistently said Frank won't be back until June.

a) Remember that he had reported early before his "strike" and came back the day he had to by contract?

b) Remember how he had a note from his doctor stating that he shouldn't perform the shuttle drill so soon after having that bone spur removed?

Now let me ask you this:

Do you remember when Jerry Manuel told Thomas to go home because he was refusing to play on just a mildly bad ankle when that bone spur, the removal of which created the shuttle drill controversy, turned out to be size of a walnut?

Try getting your facts straight before knocking Thomas. Of course, that's holding you up to a higher standard than Chicago sports writers practice, so never mind....

DrCrawdad
02-19-2005, 01:34 PM
On MJ&H the other day, KW said that only Thomas knows his own body and that he will know when he is ready. So that's his public stance on all of this.

When someone accuses another of dishonesty (or perhaps being less than honest, if that is different) the burden rests on the accuser to prove the dishonesty.

That said, I think the Sox have been quite honest and candid about when Frank will return. IIRC all along the Sox have said that they expect or hope that Frank will be back in ST. In addition though the Sox have been outspoken about planning for the event that Frank is not ready.

Four months ago the Sox may have thought and hoped that Frank would be ready during ST. Now it's clear Frank is not ready, yet. With any health condition there is a degree of speculation, such as the case with Frank. That predictions and expectations have been wrong is no proof of dishonesty.

As for examples of misleading and perhaps dishonesty about players health, see the Cubs last year. (I'm making that statement and I have no interest in debating it here and now.)

PS Hal I replied to you but these comments are directed mainly at CMT.

soxwon
02-19-2005, 01:42 PM
what kills me is- Frank originally wasnt going to start till MAY, now it looks like april, that is excellent.

but the press talks about him not being ready till mid march, or atleast showing up.

they were aware he wouldnt be ready to a few months into the season.
why they making a big deal about it?

mdep524
02-19-2005, 01:49 PM
These two idiots are good reasons I started my keep Frank poll.

By Phil Rogers logic, Frank is nothing but a slow power hitter. If he doesn't fit in with the team, maybe someone can explain why the Sox will most likely pay for a slower less powerful hitter this offseason when they re-sign PK.
And what's even more ridiculous is the only thing the superficial, easy-answer-peddlin' media has talked about this offseason with regard to the Sox is the "power loss." Losing Ordonez and Lee's power numbers, etc. And now Phil Rogers says Frank doesn't "fit" with the team and he is an "afterthought", so he should be let go. So they say power loss is the biggest problem with the team... but then advocate getting rid of the team's best power and OBP hitter? :rolleyes:

SOXSINCE'70
02-19-2005, 02:00 PM
There is no prejudice.The Chicago media covers
both teams fairly.:rolling: :rolling:

Brian26
02-19-2005, 04:11 PM
Whoever talked about Rozner being a good sportswriter, I hope you re-evaluate.

I have NEVER liked Barry Rozner. The first time I ever heard him on the radio was in 2001 with Steve Dahl in the afternoon. I'm not sure if this was a semi-frequent gig or what, but it seemed like Rozner was on every Friday for awhile. Anyway, at the time, the Sox and Cubs were both the same number of games out of first place, and both had an outside shot of winning their division if they got hot. Rozner, though, bleeding the baby blue, made sure to let everyone listening (Dahl is #1 in his demographic, right?) that the Sox had NO CHANCE of winning their division, but the Cubs were right there in the thick of it and could make the playoffs. Both teams were the same number of games out, and I think the Cubs even had one extra team to jump over. Dahl, of course knowing very little about baseball, didn't even try to defend the Sox. This is a perfect example of the ignorant pro-Cub media in this town. Any Sox fan with an inkling of common sense would have taken Rozner to task. During the same segment, he made some lame digs at the Cell and Frank Thomas' injury (ironically enough). Does Rozner have some personal vendetta against Frank?

Lip Man 1
02-19-2005, 09:22 PM
For what it's worth Phil Rogers was on WGN-TV's Instant Replay show last Sunday and spoke highly about the Sox and their moves. He expects them to have a good season.

Something that the critics of Phil's story today seem to be missing is this:

"But it would be nice if he could go out somewhat in style. This, of course, never happens with the White Sox. It didn't with Carlton Fisk, it didn't with Jack McDowell, it didn't with Robin Ventura or even Guillen. It certainly didn't with Ordonez. Why should Thomas be different?"

There's an old saying...those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Rogers listed five names that left the Sox under unseemly and counter productive ways. Counter productive for both the player and more importantly the organization.

Have the Sox learned from history? Especially given Williams desire to rid the club of Hurt?

We'll see won't we?

Lip

LauraJ14
02-19-2005, 09:23 PM
I have NEVER liked Barry Rozner. The first time I ever heard him on the radio was in 2001 with Steve Dahl in the afternoon. I'm not sure if this was a semi-frequent gig or what, but it seemed like Rozner was on every Friday for awhile. Anyway, at the time, the Sox and Cubs were both the same number of games out of first place, and both had an outside shot of winning their division if they got hot. Rozner, though, bleeding the baby blue, made sure to let everyone listening (Dahl is #1 in his demographic, right?) that the Sox had NO CHANCE of winning their division, but the Cubs were right there in the thick of it and could make the playoffs. Both teams were the same number of games out, and I think the Cubs even had one extra team to jump over. Dahl, of course knowing very little about baseball, didn't even try to defend the Sox. This is a perfect example of the ignorant pro-Cub media in this town. Any Sox fan with an inkling of common sense would have taken Rozner to task. During the same segment, he made some lame digs at the Cell and Frank Thomas' injury (ironically enough). Does Rozner have some personal vendetta against Frank?


Maybe Rozner is different on radio than in his column's but I read the Daily Herald sports section and he sure doesn't sound like a Cubby fan to me. In fact he seems very neutral towards both teams.
Wasn't Steve Dahl a White Sox season ticket holder for many years and he doesn't know anything about baseball???

Ol' No. 2
02-19-2005, 09:38 PM
For what it's worth Phil Rogers was on WGN-TV's Instant Replay show last Sunday and spoke highly about the Sox and their moves. He expects them to have a good season.

Something that the critics of Phil's story today seem to be missing is this:

"But it would be nice if he could go out somewhat in style. This, of course, never happens with the White Sox. It didn't with Carlton Fisk, it didn't with Jack McDowell, it didn't with Robin Ventura or even Guillen. It certainly didn't with Ordonez. Why should Thomas be different?"

There's an old saying...those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Rogers listed five names that left the Sox under unseemly and counter productive ways. Counter productive for both the player and more importantly the organization.

Have the Sox learned from history? Especially given Williams desire to rid the club of Hurt?

We'll see won't we?

LipThere's also this quote:

"There's little doubt it will be his last year in Chicago, as general manager Ken Williams seems ready to hand him a $3.5 million severance rather than exercise a $10 million option after the season."

Repeating the same old crap that Foltman tried to peddle. And how, exactly, does Rogers know this? Tea leaves? Crystal ball? He has absolutely no FACTS. Blurring the line between opinions and facts to try to spin the story into not-so-subtle Sox-bashing is just more of the same old stuff.

MRKARNO
02-19-2005, 10:17 PM
There's also this quote:

"There's little doubt it will be his last year in Chicago, as general manager Ken Williams seems ready to hand him a $3.5 million severance rather than exercise a $10 million option after the season."

Repeating the same old crap that Foltman tried to peddle. And how, exactly, does Rogers know this? Tea leaves? Crystal ball? He has absolutely no FACTS. Blurring the line between opinions and facts to try to spin the story into not-so-subtle Sox-bashing is just more of the same old stuff.

Bingo. Even worse is that in their "news" report about Frank, they titled it "Thomas' ankle healing slowly" DESPITE the fact that he's ahead of the more pessimistic timetable suggested by Ozzie in January and more in line with what Kenny guessed in January, May as opposed to June. Also, they reported the same "fact" in their "news" report. I can no longer see the Tribune objective about Thomas after the last few things they have written about him. It's dispicable the way they're trying to run him out of town. They figure, Sammy left, so the only way for things to be even is if Frank leaves in a similar fashion. We cannot let the Tribune do this to Frank. They're trying to isolate Frank from the rest of the team and from the fans. There's no way to put it except as a truly dispicable course of action.

gosox41
02-19-2005, 11:26 PM
For what it's worth Phil Rogers was on WGN-TV's Instant Replay show last Sunday and spoke highly about the Sox and their moves. He expects them to have a good season.

Something that the critics of Phil's story today seem to be missing is this:

"But it would be nice if he could go out somewhat in style. This, of course, never happens with the White Sox. It didn't with Carlton Fisk, it didn't with Jack McDowell, it didn't with Robin Ventura or even Guillen. It certainly didn't with Ordonez. Why should Thomas be different?"

There's an old saying...those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Rogers listed five names that left the Sox under unseemly and counter productive ways. Counter productive for both the player and more importantly the organization.

Have the Sox learned from history? Especially given Williams desire to rid the club of Hurt?

We'll see won't we?

Lip

Lip,

Me and you agree on this. As long as KW is GM there is a very good chance Frank is gone. There is one way to maybe prevent this (well 2 if you count firing Williams which isn' happening) and that's for the fans to speak up early and often right now.


Bob

Brian26
02-20-2005, 01:29 AM
Wasn't Steve Dahl a White Sox season ticket holder for many years and he doesn't know anything about baseball???

From years and years of listening to his show, Steve is a casual baseball fan at best. Yeah, he had season tickets. My point was that he wasn't knowledgable enough to call Rozner out on the crap Rozner was trying to push down the listener's throats.

Lip Man 1
02-20-2005, 01:40 PM
No. 2:

Maybe his 'facts' are simply common sense and history which have shown over the years the Sox seem to have problems with their 'stars,' as well as the reported comments and moves made by Kenny Williams in regards to Thomas over the past few years.

Can anything happen in this regard...absolutely... but to me the odds say Thomas will be gone after the year.

Your beef seems to be they are stating their opinions in what should be simply a news story. I agree with you on Foltman but as far as Rogers he is a columnist. In that context (and this came up in his column) he is allowed to speculate any way he chooses.

It boils down to that you simply don't like his opinions, in my opinion.

Personally I think that unfortunately, he is probably closer to the truth then your contention the Sox are going to hang on to their aging slugger.

Just FYI I wish it were possible for Frank to stay but given the history of this organization and the animosity between Williams and Thomas I simply don't think that's going to take place. All the circumstancial evidence points against it.

That's just the way it is.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
02-20-2005, 02:06 PM
No. 2:

Maybe his 'facts' are simply common sense and history which have shown over the years the Sox seem to have problems with their 'stars,' as well as the reported comments and moves made by Kenny Williams in regards to Thomas over the past few years.

Can anything happen in this regard...absolutely... but to me the odds say Thomas will be gone after the year.

Your beef seems to be they are stating their opinions in what should be simply a news story. I agree with you on Foltman but as far as Rogers he is a columnist. In that context (and this came up in his column) he is allowed to speculate any way he chooses.

It boils down to that you simply don't like his opinions, in my opinion.

Personally I think that unfortunately, he is probably closer to the truth then your contention the Sox are going to hang on to their aging slugger.

Just FYI I wish it were possible for Frank to stay but given the history of this organization and the animosity between Williams and Thomas I simply don't think that's going to take place. All the circumstancial evidence points against it.

That's just the way it is.

LipIf Rogers wants to state his opinion, fine. I just have a problem with him stating them as if they were facts beyond dispute. It's the difference between

"There's little doubt it will be his last year in Chicago..."

and

"I have no doubt it will be his last year in Chicago..."

A subtle distinction, but with a big difference. Bias creeps in in all sorts of ways.

Brian26
02-20-2005, 04:22 PM
Me and you agree on this. As long as KW is GM there is a very good chance Frank is gone.

I look at this another way. As long as Frank continues to be productive, he'll be in a Sox uniform. The supposed animosity between Frank and KW (and nobody knows for sure if any really exists) won't stop the Sox from taking the $10 million option next year if Frank hits .285/40 hrs/100 rbi's. That's still a worthwhile investment in this day and age, especially given the public relations nightmare that would be caused by letting the greatest player in franchise history go without just cause.

Lip- We've all known for years that there will come a day when a huge decision will need to be made regarding Frank. Ultimately, this is a business, and JR needs to use his money wisely. If Frank and the Sox part ways, I have no reason to believe Frank's #35 will not be retired and he will get his just honors.

MRKARNO
02-20-2005, 04:27 PM
Your beef seems to be they are stating their opinions in what should be simply a news story. I agree with you on Foltman but as far as Rogers he is a columnist. In that context (and this came up in his column) he is allowed to speculate any way he chooses.


Well Foltman's done it twice now and as far as I'm concerned that's pretty shameful, especially in the context that he's trying to report it as news when it's just his own wild speculation.

Brian26
02-20-2005, 04:31 PM
"But it would be nice if he could go out somewhat in style. This, of course, never happens with the White Sox. It didn't with Carlton Fisk, it didn't with Jack McDowell, it didn't with Robin Ventura or even Guillen. It certainly didn't with Ordonez. Why should Thomas be different?"

Does "going out in style" mean handing out fat contracts when guys become free agents without using any common sense or fiscal responsibility? Ventura signed a contract with the Mets that the Sox couldn't compete with, and we should all be thanking JR for not signing McDowell to anything longterm after '94, because he was pretty much done after one decent season in '95 with the Yankees. Bringing up Magglio's name is a joke. Ozzie and Fisk still wanted to play, but their skills had diminished. It's a business, Lip.

TornLabrum
02-20-2005, 04:37 PM
Does "going out in style" mean handing out fat contracts when guys become free agents without using any common sense or fiscal responsibility? Ventura signed a contract with the Mets that the Sox couldn't compete with, and we should all be thanking JR for not signing McDowell to anything longterm after '94, because he was pretty much done after one decent season in '95 with the Yankees. Bringing up Magglio's name is a joke. Ozzie and Fisk still wanted to play, but their skills had diminished. It's a business, Lip.

If you really are Brian26: I hope you're not giving JR credit for forseeing McDowell's problems.

Brian26
02-20-2005, 04:40 PM
If you really are Brian26: I hope you're not giving JR credit for forseeing McDowell's problems.

LOL- no, of course not. JR has been lucky in that regards (Fernandez, Alvarez, Sirotka, etc)

RKMeibalane
02-20-2005, 04:41 PM
From years and years of listening to his show, Steve is a casual baseball fan at best. Yeah, he had season tickets. My point was that he wasn't knowledgable enough to call Rozner out on the crap Rozner was trying to push down the listener's throats.

I agree, but let's keep in mind that Rozner's latest rant proves that he isn't that knowledgable, either. The Chicago media continues to sink to new lows with the crap they throw in our faces. In a perfect world, Frank Thomas would get free swings at each member of the media who's trashed him over the years. Of course, that would mean that only one or two people would be left alive after he was finished.

MRKARNO
02-20-2005, 04:45 PM
In a perfect world, Frank Thomas would get free swings at each member of the media who's trashed him over the years. Of course, that would mean that only one or two people would be left alive after he was finished.

:moron
"Can I go first Big Blurt?"

:hurt
"You read my mind. Of course you're first, moron."

TornLabrum
02-20-2005, 04:49 PM
:moron
"Can I go first Big Blurt?"

:hurt
"You read my mind. Of course you're first, moron."

:moron

"Oboy! Frank named me First Moron!"

TornLabrum
02-20-2005, 04:52 PM
FWIW, I was so impressed by Mr. Rozner's comments on MJ&H the other day that they became the subject of this week's column, which should be going up sometime soon.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2005, 04:53 PM
FWIW, I was so impressed by Mr. Rozner's comments on MJ&H the other day that they became the subject of this week's column, which should be going up sometime soon.

Looking forward to it.

SOXSINCE'70
02-20-2005, 04:55 PM
For anyone interested,my feelings on Frank Thomas will
(hopefully) be on the "Sox fans speak out" forum on Monday
or Tuesday.BTW,I am pro,not anti Thomas.

SOXintheBURGH
02-20-2005, 05:31 PM
:moron

"Oboy! Frank named me First Moron!"

LOL..

Y'know, I've seen that picture of Moronotti a thousand times now, and his hair never ceases to amaze me.

RKMeibalane
02-20-2005, 05:50 PM
LOL..

Y'know, I've seen that picture of Moronotti a thousand times now, and his hair never ceases to amaze me.

I'm just amazed that someone could have a head as big as his. Look at the size of that thing!

Brian26
02-20-2005, 06:59 PM
I'm just amazed that someone could have a head as big as his. Look at the size of that thing!

It's pretty bad when someone's real hair looks worse than a toupee.

Brian26
02-20-2005, 07:01 PM
If you really are Brian26: I hope you're not giving JR credit for forseeing McDowell's problems.

Why wouldn't this really be me? :?:

TornLabrum
02-20-2005, 08:03 PM
Why wouldn't this really be me? :?:

I should have put that in teal, it was a joking reference to your questioning of Dave Wills' identity a couple of weeks ago. I think you may have done that on one or two other occasions, too.

Brian26
02-20-2005, 08:13 PM
I should have put that in teal, it was a joking reference to your questioning of Dave Wills' identity a couple of weeks ago. I think you may have done that on one or two other occasions, too.

I totally forgot about the Willsy reference- but it quickly became apparent that there was no doubt that was Dave.

Lip Man 1
02-20-2005, 09:38 PM
Brian:

Perhaps I read this wrong but you made it sound like the quote I posted was my personal opinion. Just for the record, that post was a part of Phil Rogers column.

Lip

Brian26
02-21-2005, 11:59 AM
Brian:

Perhaps I read this wrong but you made it sound like the quote I posted was my personal opinion. Just for the record, that post was a part of Phil Rogers column.

Lip

I'm sorry to imply that you thought Reinsdorf treated Fisk, Robin, Ozzie and Black Jack poorly upon their departures from the organization.

Lip Man 1
02-21-2005, 01:02 PM
Brian:

In fact he did but that's besides the point of the discussion.

Lip

Steelrod
02-21-2005, 01:22 PM
LOL- no, of course not. JR has been lucky in that regards (Fernandez, Alvarez, Sirotka, etc)
Did you ever allow yourself to believe that luck had nothing to do with it, and they were just smart baseball decisions. It's just too easy to criticise JR whenever a player making lots of money and leaves. Let the press do that. Thats how they make their living.
Think of the White Flag Trade. It's still ridiculed, even though we easily got the best of it, and were not saddled with bad contracts for failing players. Roberto Hernandez was the only player launched that had a career after leaving.

Flight #24
02-21-2005, 01:33 PM
Something that the critics of Phil's story today seem to be missing is this:

"But it would be nice if he could go out somewhat in style. This, of course, never happens with the White Sox. It didn't with Carlton Fisk, it didn't with Jack McDowell, it didn't with Robin Ventura or even Guillen. It certainly didn't with Ordonez. Why should Thomas be different?"

There's an old saying...those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Rogers listed five names that left the Sox under unseemly and counter productive ways. Counter productive for both the player and more importantly the organization.



you have some nice datapoints, unfortunately, they don't necessarily fit the situation.

McDowell/Ventura/Ordonez were guys who left because the Sox didn't offer up giant FA contracts, in Jack & Maggs cases at least partially because they didn't deem them solid health risks (Remember - Jack pitched 3 250+IP years in a row, then 181 in the '94 strike year so it wasn't a huge surprise when he tailed off within 2 years of that).

Fisk & Guillen were guys who couldn't perform anymore but wanted to keep trying to play it out. The departures weren't handled well by any means, but the Sox didn't exactly kick out produictive vets, these guys were done. If Thomas sucks, it might be a decent analogy to Fisk & Guillen. But that's unlikely since Frank looks like he can still be very effective when healthy.

In no cases have the Sox dumped a productive player who they had under contract. You (and/or Phil Rogers) are comparing apples & oranges.

Flight #24
02-21-2005, 01:36 PM
If you really are Brian26: I hope you're not giving JR credit for forseeing McDowell's problems.

McDowell pitched 205, 253, 260, 256 IP, then 181 in the strike-shortened '94 season. After that he put up 217, 192, and then a combined 135 over the remainning 3 years of his career. IMO, that dropoff was 100% projectable given his workload and the fact that he wasn't exactly the biggest guy out there. Giving him a 4-6 year contract would almost have guaranteed getting 2-4 years of nothing for big $$$$.

Lip Man 1
02-21-2005, 01:36 PM
Steelrod:

Sure the Sox got the best of it....one divisional title, zero wins in the playoffs.

Meanwhile the negative publicity both nationally and locally still haunts the franchise, the Sox were a laughingstock everywhere from Sports Illustrated to Baseball Tonight to Leno to Letterman...attendence dropped by what 300,000 or 400,000 from 1997 to 1998.

The White Flag Trade was one of the low points in the sporadic history of the franchise...ranking right there with Disco Demolition and the Black Sox.

But the Sox got the best of it!


Lip

Lip Man 1
02-21-2005, 01:43 PM
Flight:

Overlooked in your numbers is one huge omission.

In 1996 while McDowell was winning in double figures for Cleveland, the Sox were blowing a 4 1/2 game lead in the Wild Card down the stretch... trotting out such stellar 5th starters as a young Mike Sirotka, Mike Bertotti and Luis Andujar.

With McDowell anchoring the back end of the rotation the Sox MAKE the playoffs after getting off to a 40-21 start.

If the Sox make the playoffs in 96, they don't feel the need to make a big splash and sign Albert Belle then there is no White Flag Trade in 97 which makes the franchise a laughingstock.

To me that's worth every penny of a long term deal even if Jack then did have his career ruined because of a surgeon's error.

The entire future of the franchise would have been changed if McDowell wasn't traded out of spite after the 1994 labor impasse and the Sox admitted the deal was made because of the money lost with the final month and a half being cancelled.

Lip

Flight #24
02-21-2005, 01:45 PM
Steelrod:

Sure the Sox got the best of it....one divisional title, zero wins in the playoffs.

Meanwhile the negative publicity both nationally and locally still haunts the franchise, the Sox were a laughingstock everywhere from Sports Illustrated to Baseball Tonight to Leno to Letterman...attendence dropped by what 300,000 or 400,000 from 1997 to 1998.

The White Flag Trade was one of the low points in the sporadic history of the franchise...ranking right there with Disco Demolition and the Black Sox.

But the Sox got the best of it!


Lip

The discrepancy here is the "from a baseball perspective" and the "from an overall franchise perspective".

From a baseball perspective, whether or not it was a good deal depends on what you think would have happened in 1997. Personally, I doubt they would have made the playoffs, and Foulke was a key contributor to them doing so in 2000. Plus, they weren't going to resign any of the guys traded. The trade wasn't an unitigated success from a Sox standpoint, but neither was it a horrible failure.

From a franchise perspective (including PR), it was obviously horrendous, although it's lived on beyond it's appropriate lifespan IMO because of the media bias in Chicago and guys like Moronotti who bring it up ad nauseum (much like he's now picked up on the "JR signed steroid-boy Canseco" tag line for his more recent fecal matter).

I believe Steelrod was referring to the former point of view.

Lip Man 1
02-21-2005, 01:47 PM
Flight:

You are looking at those deals strickly on a dollars and cents motif. Baseball is more then just 'dollars and cents.' Considering the second class status the Sox have in their own town, caused in many cases by exactly the same 'dollars and cents' mentality, one should not overlook the value of PR and marketing.

These deals were PR disasters and set the franchise back. Sometimes you bite the bullett and keep guys around to fill out the end of the bench to help that PR value and avoid ugly confrontations that the media love.

Lip

Jabroni
02-21-2005, 01:47 PM
It's pretty bad when someone's real hair looks worse than a toupee.http://wgnradio.com/art/jdfwalk/santohead.jpg
"OHHH NOOOOOOOOO!!!"

Flight #24
02-21-2005, 01:54 PM
Flight:

Overlooked in your numbers is one huge omission.

In 1996 while McDowell was winning in double figures for Cleveland, the Sox were blowing a 4 1/2 game lead in the Wild Card down the stretch... trotting out such stellar 5th starters as a young Mike Sirotka, Mike Bertotti and Luis Andujar.

With McDowell anchoring the back end of the rotation the Sox MAKE the playoffs after getting off to a 40-21 start.

If the Sox make the playoffs in 96, they don't feel the need to make a big splash and sign Albert Belle then there is no White Flag Trade in 97 which makes the franchise a laughingstock.

To me that's worth every penny of a long term deal even if Jack then did have his career ruined because of a surgeon's error.

The entire future of the franchise would have been changed if McDowell wasn't traded out of spite after the 1994 labor impasse and the Sox admitted the deal was made because of the money lost with the final month and a half being cancelled.

Lip

No, I'm not. If the Sox make the playoffs in 1996 and then effectively cut payroll because they have to pay Blackjack big $$$ on the sideline from 97-99, neither you nor most fans are going to give them any slack. Your viewpoint, as always, relies on the team spending big $$$, and then if a high-salaried guy goes down, spending more big $$$ to replace him with an equivalent player.

If you accept the benefit of having Blackjack healthy for a year or 2 along with the cost to the team of not having him, but having him eat up a big chunk of budget the next few years, that's fine. But that's not your philosophy, and it's not surprising that the team reacted accordingly.

By the way - 1994, payroll was 40mil, same as 1995 (and it was 6th highest in baseball). They didnt' cut it despite the lost revenues from the strike. They simply didn't respond to the "lost revenues" with increased payroll.

Brian26
02-21-2005, 03:31 PM
Flight:

Overlooked in your numbers is one huge omission.

In 1996 while McDowell was winning in double figures for Cleveland, the Sox were blowing a 4 1/2 game lead in the Wild Card down the stretch... trotting out such stellar 5th starters as a young Mike Sirotka, Mike Bertotti and Luis Andujar.

With McDowell anchoring the back end of the rotation the Sox MAKE the playoffs after getting off to a 40-21 start.

If the Sox make the playoffs in 96, they don't feel the need to make a big splash and sign Albert Belle then there is no White Flag Trade in 97 which makes the franchise a laughingstock.

To me that's worth every penny of a long term deal even if Jack then did have his career ruined because of a surgeon's error.

The entire future of the franchise would have been changed if McDowell wasn't traded out of spite after the 1994 labor impasse and the Sox admitted the deal was made because of the money lost with the final month and a half being cancelled.

Lip

Wow, that's a HELL of a stretch.

Brian26
02-21-2005, 03:37 PM
Fisk & Guillen were guys who couldn't perform anymore but wanted to keep trying to play it out. The departures weren't handled well by any means, but the Sox didn't exactly kick out produictive vets, these guys were done.

It's terrible that Fisk had to be let go on the road, and that's not the way I would have handled it...but the fact remains that he wanted to stick around, meanwhile he was really starting to look bad out there. Some guys don't know when to quit.

RKMeibalane
02-21-2005, 04:31 PM
Wow, that's a HELL of a stretch.

Yes, it is. McDowell was already slipping by the time the 1994 season ended. To say that things would have turned out differently is probably true, but I don't think Jack McDowell was ever good enough to completely alter the course of a franchise.

Steelrod
02-21-2005, 06:05 PM
The discrepancy here is the "from a baseball perspective" and the "from an overall franchise perspective".

From a baseball perspective, whether or not it was a good deal depends on what you think would have happened in 1997. Personally, I doubt they would have made the playoffs, and Foulke was a key contributor to them doing so in 2000. Plus, they weren't going to resign any of the guys traded. The trade wasn't an unitigated success from a Sox standpoint, but neither was it a horrible failure.

From a franchise perspective (including PR), it was obviously horrendous, although it's lived on beyond it's appropriate lifespan IMO because of the media bias in Chicago and guys like Moronotti who bring it up ad nauseum (much like he's now picked up on the "JR signed steroid-boy Canseco" tag line for his more recent fecal matter).

I believe Steelrod was referring to the former point of view.
Call me crazy, but I'm from the old school that judges a trades worth by who ended up with better players ( and productive ones). I would rather end up with more talent and bad press, than get screwed with the press thinking the Sox made the right move! The press will find something to pick on, no matter what. The real problem is the casual fan lets the press make up their mind for them. As a life long suffering Sox fan, I'm accostomed to negative articles and prefer to make up my own mind. If it keeps others away, I guess I'll have less traffic to deal with. I guess that also keeps the $$$ away, but I cannot control that, so I don't worry about it.

Lip Man 1
02-21-2005, 07:18 PM
Flight:

Ron Schueler made that statement himself to justify the deal. Maybe he was stretching the truth...I don't know...I only know what was reported.

Lip

Flight #24
02-21-2005, 07:26 PM
Flight:

Ron Schueler made that statement himself to justify the deal. Maybe he was stretching the truth...I don't know...I only know what was reported.

Lip

Not attacking your use of that statement, but I wanted to make sure it was clarified that they did not cut payroll, since many would assume that would be JR's reaction to the strike that he allegedly spearheaded via lockout threats. The fact is that after a fairly sizable cut in revenues, they didn't cut payroll.

Steelrod
02-21-2005, 07:50 PM
It's terrible that Fisk had to be let go on the road, and that's not the way I would have handled it...but the fact remains that he wanted to stick around, meanwhile he was really starting to look bad out there. Some guys don't know when to quit.

Couldn't agree with you more. Maybe Fisk's release was ill timed, but if I remember correctly, no one thought enough of him at that point to pick him up, even for the minimum salary!! And that includes his beloved RED SOX!

Foulke29
02-22-2005, 10:51 AM
Actually, I've heard them give an even more rediculous excuse. At least one media report I've seen that's stuck with me all these years said the reason why Sosa shows up late is because he showed up late to Spring Training the year he blew up the Homerun total in his stats. Therefore, as good luck, he now shows up late for Spring Training because we all know how superstitious baseball players are.

Notice it's not teal. I wish I were being sarcastic with the reason.

Isn't that the same year he started injecting the 'roids in his left arm instead of his right arm - so he stuck with the left arm from there on out?

:bandance:

gosox41
02-22-2005, 02:55 PM
It's terrible that Fisk had to be let go on the road, and that's not the way I would have handled it...but the fact remains that he wanted to stick around, meanwhile he was really starting to look bad out there. Some guys don't know when to quit.

I was thinkig the same thing. The Sox were wrong in how the let him go. But he fact is they kept him around to break a record and that was it. Fisk was not a good catcher in 1992-93 offensively or defensively. Anyone remember how many teams a runner would try to steal on him and he'd just plain drop the ball whern transfering it from his glove to his throwing hand? It seemed like countless times.

So while the Sox didn't handle letting him go well at all, at the end to a baseball fan with no emotional ties to the team or to Fisk could arguable seem him as a washed up vet hanging around way past his time to break a personal record.


Bob