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View Full Version : If Contreras/Garland/El Duque struggle....


OzzieBall2004
02-18-2005, 03:31 AM
Contreras and Garland have a history of struggling early, falling behind, and on occasion, getting rocked......

El Duque hasn't shown the wear-with-all to last for a full season, and has only shown flashes of brillance since World Series glory with the Yankees....

Keeping all three of those things in mind, all of them have also shown pure talent on several occasions (we can all think of a few strong performances from Contreras and Garland last year).

So I propose this, and attack it as you deem necessary.....

If any of those 3 struggle and allow 3-4 runs in their first 2-3 innings...I say you pull them immediatley, and go to the 'pen. It makes sense because you have SO MANY arms in there that can do long relief (Cotts, Hermanson, Politte, Vizcaino(?) ) , and this provides the arms to come in and do damage control before things get nasty. The first three are strong enough to give you 3-4 good innings each on any give night, and you'd stilll have Damaso, Shingo, and whoever wasn't used for the 8th and 9th. Maybe this is common sense, and i'm not condoning making a habit of one of them having trouble each time around the rotation, but I really think this puts the depth of out bullpen in perspective, and makes me a helluva lot more confident about our pitching in general.....

Your thoughts?

Mohoney
02-18-2005, 05:24 AM
Contreras and Garland have a history of struggling early, falling behind, and on occasion, getting rocked......

El Duque hasn't shown the wear-with-all to last for a full season, and has only shown flashes of brillance since World Series glory with the Yankees....

Keeping all three of those things in mind, all of them have also shown pure talent on several occasions (we can all think of a few strong performances from Contreras and Garland last year).

So I propose this, and attack it as you deem necessary.....

If any of those 3 struggle and allow 3-4 runs in their first 2-3 innings...I say you pull them immediatley, and go to the 'pen. It makes sense because you have SO MANY arms in there that can do long relief (Cotts, Hermanson, Politte, Vizcaino(?) ) , and this provides the arms to come in and do damage control before things get nasty. The first three are strong enough to give you 3-4 good innings each on any give night, and you'd stilll have Damaso, Shingo, and whoever wasn't used for the 8th and 9th. Maybe this is common sense, and i'm not condoning making a habit of one of them having trouble each time around the rotation, but I really think this puts the depth of out bullpen in perspective, and makes me a helluva lot more confident about our pitching in general.....

Your thoughts?

Well, if the struggling pitcher in question has thrown about 80 pitches in those 3 innings, that will force your hand anyway. If we were to do this, Cotts would probably be the 1st guy out of the pen in situations like these.

I really hope that Ozzie limits the stints of guys like Marte, Politte, Vizcaino, and Shingo to 1 inning or less. Bring a pitcher in with a fresh frame, and if he goes 1-2-3 in less than 10 pitches, then I guess you can leave him out there for a 4th batter, but I don't really like making relievers come back out for a 2nd inning of work and making them throw an extra set of warmup pitches unless it's absolutely necessary. I like it when the opposition sees the least amount of pitches from our relievers as possible.

Ol' No. 2
02-18-2005, 09:40 AM
Contreras and Garland have a history of struggling early, falling behind, and on occasion, getting rocked......

El Duque hasn't shown the wear-with-all to last for a full season, and has only shown flashes of brillance since World Series glory with the Yankees....

Keeping all three of those things in mind, all of them have also shown pure talent on several occasions (we can all think of a few strong performances from Contreras and Garland last year).

So I propose this, and attack it as you deem necessary.....

If any of those 3 struggle and allow 3-4 runs in their first 2-3 innings...I say you pull them immediatley, and go to the 'pen. It makes sense because you have SO MANY arms in there that can do long relief (Cotts, Hermanson, Politte, Vizcaino(?) ) , and this provides the arms to come in and do damage control before things get nasty. The first three are strong enough to give you 3-4 good innings each on any give night, and you'd stilll have Damaso, Shingo, and whoever wasn't used for the 8th and 9th. Maybe this is common sense, and i'm not condoning making a habit of one of them having trouble each time around the rotation, but I really think this puts the depth of out bullpen in perspective, and makes me a helluva lot more confident about our pitching in general.....

Your thoughts?I don't think you can make a blanket rule about this. As Mohoney pointed out, it will depend on how many pitches he's thrown. Also, how fresh is the BP? Do you have off-days coming up? If the BP has been putting in a lot if innings, you might tend to leave the starter in longer. It also depends on the particulars of the situation. Did they score those runs on a HR? All pitchers make bad pitches once in a while. If he's still pitching effectively, you don't pull him just because he got burned on one bad pitch.

gobears1987
02-18-2005, 10:18 AM
Well we got Vizcaino and Hermanson to give long relief jobs if we need them.

fusillirob1983
02-18-2005, 10:48 AM
Garland is also known for the big inning, so on some occasions, if he gives up 3 runs in one inning, there's some chance that that inning was his big inning and that he should be able to go a few more the rest of the game. Of course you can't predict that, but I'm just saying we know Garland can bounce back and give us a couple more.

zach074
02-18-2005, 01:41 PM
If any of them struggle we are in big trouble.

OurBitchinMinny
02-18-2005, 03:51 PM
Well, if the struggling pitcher in question has thrown about 80 pitches in those 3 innings, that will force your hand anyway. If we were to do this, Cotts would probably be the 1st guy out of the pen in situations like these.

I really hope that Ozzie limits the stints of guys like Marte, Politte, Vizcaino, and Shingo to 1 inning or less. Bring a pitcher in with a fresh frame, and if he goes 1-2-3 in less than 10 pitches, then I guess you can leave him out there for a 4th batter, but I don't really like making relievers come back out for a 2nd inning of work and making them throw an extra set of warmup pitches unless it's absolutely necessary. I like it when the opposition sees the least amount of pitches from our relievers as possible.

agreed especially on shingo. Everytime they stretched him more than one inning he would get shelled that second inning.

MIgrenade
02-18-2005, 03:56 PM
Short term this might work, but long term it will blow out the pen. I realize there are a lot of arms, but there are also a lot of games.

Mohoney
02-18-2005, 04:17 PM
agreed especially on shingo. Everytime they stretched him more than one inning he would get shelled that second inning.

Shingo more than anybody. Deception is a big part of his game. The more looks the opposition gets at him, even if they are warmup pitches, the better their chances are to get timing down on his fastball. If he threw 95+ to compliment that frisbee, I wouldn't be so worried about it.

Then again, if he threw 95+ to compliment his frisbee, I would book him a ticket to Scotland and have 11 clones made, 6 of which with altered DNA to make them left-handed.

Then I would call Guinness Book, because I would want to give them advance notice on our impending 100+ no-hitters.

Chisox003
02-18-2005, 04:43 PM
I know this is about Garland, Duque, and Contreras, but I just read that the Sox will have an innings count on Buehrle and Garcia for under 240 innings this season, which may or may not have a large effect on the pen (Buehrle had 234 last season, so probably not much of an effect on the Pen)

Also, thought you'd like this from Yahoo, where I read it...It proves that journalists truly know what they are writing about:

"After his first throwing session of the spring on Thursday, the left-hander proclaimed himself as 100-percent healthy."

Am I missing something, or did Freddy switch arms? Theres more...

"If Garcia doesn't get his way, he'll just turn to Guillen's niece, who he married this offseason..."

Get his way? Am I missing something else? What, IF ANY, relevance does that sentence have to Freddy's pitch count? Somebody clue me in

cburns
02-18-2005, 04:53 PM
I hope our pitching staff is going to be like the Cardinals staff of last year. Our pitchers put up lots of quality starts, and then the bullpen gets used effectively. Also, our starters have more talent than the Cards staff from last year.

Gosox1917
02-18-2005, 06:07 PM
I know this is about Garland, Duque, and Contreras, but I just read that the Sox will have an innings count on Buehrle and Garcia for under 240 innings this season, which may or may not have a large effect on the pen (Buehrle had 234 last season, so probably not much of an effect on the Pen)

Also, thought you'd like this from Yahoo, where I read it...It proves that journalists truly know what they are writing about:

"After his first throwing session of the spring on Thursday, the left-hander proclaimed himself as 100-percent healthy."

Am I missing something, or did Freddy switch arms? Theres more...

"If Garcia doesn't get his way, he'll just turn to Guillen's niece, who he married this offseason..."

Get his way? Am I missing something else? What, IF ANY, relevance does that sentence have to Freddy's pitch count? Somebody clue me in


Yahoo must be letting thier journalist's children write stories for them now.

OzzieBall2004
02-18-2005, 08:42 PM
Ok, truth be told, I wrote this drunk when I got in last night. I stand by my basic statement though that Ozzie should not let his starters get hung out to dry if they have a bad start. Last year was understandable because the options weren't all that attractive, but guys like Hermanson, Vizcaino, and Pollitte have a proven track record of being capable of 2 innings of relief or so on any given night, plus Buehrle and Garcia almost always go 7 or 8, so there wont be much action on nights they pitch. This is also assuming that Garland and Contreras (and El Duque, god willing if he stays healthy) dont get their asses handed to them each time they go out to the mound.

I can just remember a number of games last year where Ozzie let the starter go out there and put things out of reach early.

SouthBendSox
02-18-2005, 09:22 PM
Ozzie will implode if this happens

The Racehorse
02-18-2005, 09:30 PM
Ok, truth be told, I wrote this drunk when I got in last night. I stand by my basic statement though that Ozzie should not let his starters get hung out to dry if they have a bad start. Last year was understandable because the options weren't all that attractive, but guys like Hermanson, Vizcaino, and Pollitte have a proven track record of being capable of 2 innings of relief or so on any given night, plus Buehrle and Garcia almost always go 7 or 8, so there wont be much action on nights they pitch. This is also assuming that Garland and Contreras (and El Duque, god willing if he stays healthy) dont get their asses handed to them each time they go out to the mound.

I can just remember a number of games last year where Ozzie let the starter go out there and put things out of reach early.

Hey, your honesty is pretty cool. :cool:

Your point that with Buerhle and Garcia anchoring the rotation, and if Garland and Contreas can stay healthy (especially El Duque), make's me think Hermanson is the key to the staff. Dusty has experience at starting and closing, and can hold the line if a starter breaks down (or the relief needs help). That is if Hermanson doesn't break down first.

OzzieBall2004
02-18-2005, 09:54 PM
Dusty has experience at starting and closing, and can hold the line if a starter breaks down (or the relief needs help). That is if Hermanson doesn't break down first.

Arrrrgghhh....Please don't call him "dusty", that name makes my stomach turn....

MisterB
02-18-2005, 09:59 PM
Arrrrgghhh....Please don't call him "dusty", that name makes my stomach turn....

AFAIK, his nickname with the Giants was "Hermy". (They might not have wanted the Baker association, either)

PAPChiSox729
02-19-2005, 12:08 AM
Hey, your honesty is pretty cool. :cool:

Your point that with Buerhle and Garcia anchoring the rotation, and if Garland and Contreas can stay healthy (especially El Duque), make's me think Hermanson is the key to the staff. Dusty has experience at starting and closing, and can hold the line if a starter breaks down (or the relief needs help). That is if Hermanson doesn't break down first.

Depth in the bullpen is a very,very nice luxury to have. And chances are, El Duque will get tired and you may see Hermanson or Cotts get spot starts so El Duque can rest for the final stretch of the season and hopefully the playoffs.