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Mickster
02-17-2005, 11:04 PM
On CSN - Chicago Tribune Live: Shingo (through his interpreter) told Bruce Levine that he has developed a new pitch this off-season that should help him get LH batters out this year. When Bruce asked him what the pitch was or what it was called, Shingo would not tell him and told him that he would have to find out when the batters of other teams found out.... :smile:

JUribe1989
02-17-2005, 11:08 PM
On CSN - Chicago Tribune Live: Shingo (through his interpreter) told Bruce Levine that he has developed a new pitch this off-season that should help him get LH batters out this year. When Bruce asked him what the pitch was or what it was called, Shingo would not tell him and told him that he would have to find out when the batters of other teams found out.... :smile:

OH BABY! This offseason just keeps getting more suspenseful.

JB98
02-17-2005, 11:13 PM
On CSN - Chicago Tribune Live: Shingo (through his interpreter) told Bruce Levine that he has developed a new pitch this off-season that should help him get LH batters out this year. When Bruce asked him what the pitch was or what it was called, Shingo would not tell him and told him that he would have to find out when the batters of other teams found out.... :smile:

Good. I've been hearing the Chicken Littles talk for months about the league "adjusting to Shingo." Well, yeah, they'll adjust. But who says Shingo is incapable of adjusting back?

Jabroni
02-17-2005, 11:15 PM
My guess would be a cutter so he has a pitch to throw hard and inside on lefties.

CubsfansareDRUNK
02-17-2005, 11:18 PM
AWSOME! How can this team get any better!:gulp::gulp::gulp:

Jabroni
02-17-2005, 11:33 PM
Yeah, it's got to be a cutter. Remember... weren't Shingo and Loaiza good friends before Loaiza was traded to New York? I have a feeling that Loiaza showed Shingo how to throw a cutter.

EDIT: Hmmm...
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20050211&content_id=941972&vkey=spt2005news&fext=.jspQ: You were a good friend of Esteban Loaiza until he was traded to Yankees. What other players did you befriend?

Takatsu: By the end of the season, I became friends with everyone. But I guess it was easier to talk to pitchers since we spent a lot of time together in the pen. Because of the language issue, it was hard to understand each other completely, but we always chatted. They are all very good guys. I cannot leak anything we talked about there, though. (chuckle)CUTTER!!!

jabrch
02-17-2005, 11:34 PM
I think he developed an off speed pitch ala Bugs Bunny. It travels at the speed of a turtle. Hitters can swing 4 times before it gets to the place.

Seriously - a cutter makes sense. Coop is a big fan of the cutter. Our Ps have had success with that recently (Loaiza comes to mind). I'm just wondering how much action his cutter would have. Given his general lack of velocity, that could be really nasty.

ode to veeck
02-17-2005, 11:40 PM
I'd love to see him bean the new mascot with it, a la "Bull Durham"

voodoochile
02-17-2005, 11:45 PM
I think he developed an off speed pitch ala Bugs Bunny. It travels at the speed of a turtle. Hitters can swing 4 times before it gets to the place.

Seriously - a cutter makes sense. Coop is a big fan of the cutter. Our Ps have had success with that recently (Loaiza comes to mind). I'm just wondering how much action his cutter would have. Given his general lack of velocity, that could be really nasty.

Something that rises and breaks into a LH batter would make him devastating. No one would know if he was throwing the frisbee or the cutter.

I love how he's buying into the unofficial WSI motto for the team... under the radar. I mean his pitches have always been to slow to clock, but the fact that he is being secretive too means he gets it...

Norberto7
02-17-2005, 11:50 PM
Parkman: What do you call that garbage?
Vaughn: That's called the eliminator.
Parkman: The eliminator...?
Vaughn: I got a new one I'll show ya...you get a piece of it, I'll let you name it.
(Vaughn pitches the ball and Parkman hits it out of the stadium.)
Parkman: I'd call it the masturbator.

Oh, this "new pitch" business reminded me of this humorous little exchange in the otherwise inferior Major League sequel. Not to even mention the 3rd one...

Jabroni
02-17-2005, 11:54 PM
Something that rises and breaks into a LH batter would make him devastating. No one would know if he was throwing the frisbee or the cutter.

I love how he's buying into the unofficial WSI motto for the team... under the radar. I mean his pitches have always been to slow to clock, but the fact that he is being secretive too means he gets it...E-Lo sure said some stupid things upon leaving the Sox (i.e. poor run support comment) but at least we can thank him for helping Shingo...

http://www.terra.com.mx/galeria_de_fotos/images/107/212410.jpg

89 MPH fastball + 59 MPH frisbee + cutter = UNHITTABLE!!! :supernana:

SoxSpeed22
02-17-2005, 11:58 PM
E-Lo sure said some stupid things upon leaving the Sox (i.e. poor run support comment) but at least we can thank him for helping Shingo...

http://www.terra.com.mx/galeria_de_fotos/images/107/212410.jpg

89 MPH fastball + 59 MPH frisbee + cutter = UNHITTABLE!!! :supernana: Why are jumping to conclusions here? he said it's a surprise!

Whitesox029
02-18-2005, 12:15 AM
I think he developed an off speed pitch ala Bugs Bunny. It travels at the speed of a turtle. Hitters can swing 4 times before it gets to the place.

ONE! TWO! THREE! YOU'RE OUT!
ONE! TWO! THREE! YOU'RE OUT!
ONE! TWO! THREE! YOU'RE OUT!
Ah the patented bugs bunny three-pitch, strike-out-the-side 1-2-3 inning.

A. Cavatica
02-18-2005, 12:17 AM
A change-up?

PAPChiSox729
02-18-2005, 12:23 AM
Why are jumping to conclusions here? he said it's a surprise!

Well there is a good chance that the new pitch is a cutter. It breaks into lefties and will lead to more success when he faces them. Loaiza, one of his good friends, learned to throw a cutter. He most likely would have shown it to Shingo. I mean there aren't many other options (except seeing a submarine knuckleball would be pretty cool). Hopefully this new pitch will end the 'League adjusting to Shingo' argument.

HomeFish
02-18-2005, 12:26 AM
Hopefully this new pitch will end the 'League adjusting to Shingo' argument.

I wouldn't be so sure.

If we assume that the league has already adjusted to Shingo, which may occur soon, and in fact may have already occured, then his other stuff shall become hittable, and, if he attempts to live on cutter alone, well, we all know what happened to Loaiza and, to a lesser extent, Shoey.

But, boy, did they have initial success. I think Shingo could carry us until we trade for a real closer.

balke
02-18-2005, 12:33 AM
Now to teach Contreres a new pitch?

HebrewHammer
02-18-2005, 12:34 AM
But, boy, did they have initial success. I think Shingo could carry us until we trade for a real closer.

We have a REAL closer, his name is Shingo. He blew 1 save(let me repeat that, 1 save) last season out of 20 chances. I don't know what more proof that you need to see that he's effective as a closer. When exactly is the league going to catch up to him?

Jabroni
02-18-2005, 12:34 AM
I wouldn't be so sure.

If we assume that the league has already adjusted to Shingo, which may occur soon, and in fact may have already occured, then his other stuff shall become hittable, and, if he attempts to live on cutter alone, well, we all know what happened to Loaiza and, to a lesser extent, Shoey.

But, boy, did they have initial success. I think Shingo could carry us until we trade for a real closer.WSI just wouldn't be the same without our daily dose of pessimism from HomeFish! :rolleyes:

PAPChiSox729
02-18-2005, 12:36 AM
I wouldn't be so sure.

I'm being optimistic. Afterall, it's spring training, the most optimistic time of the season.
:smile:

HomeFish
02-18-2005, 12:38 AM
We have a REAL closer, his name is Shingo. He blew 1 save(let me repeat that, 1 save) last season out of 20 chances. I don't know what more proof that you need to see that he's effective as a closer. When exactly is the league going to catch up to him?

iirc, some of those saves involved multi-run innings and made generous rule of the 3-run or tying run on deck (or is it in the hole?) rule. Boston comes to mind.

I'd like to see Shingo consistently get saves over an entire season. That's an effective closer. I don't think he's capable of it, but I will gladly eat my words if he is.

That said, if he does indeed now have a cutter, I forsee great initial results. I just don't see them lasting until September.

Jabroni
02-18-2005, 12:50 AM
iirc, some of those saves involved multi-run innings and made generous rule of the 3-run or tying run on deck (or is it in the hole?) rule. Boston comes to mind.

I'd like to see Shingo consistently get saves over an entire season. That's an effective closer. I don't think he's capable of it, but I will gladly eat my words if he is.

That said, if he does indeed now have a cutter, I forsee great initial results. I just don't see them lasting until September.Do you not recall Shingo being used for more than 1 inning many times last season? Most closers are only expected to pitch in the 9th and Shingo was used for 2 innings sometimes. With our newly deepened bullpen, there will be much less pressure on Shingo and he will only be expected to enter the game in the 9th when a closer should.

santo=dorf
02-18-2005, 12:57 AM
Shingo saves by month:
June (he took over half way): 3
July: 5
August: 6
September: 5

Homefish, are you bitching just to bitch? :?:
:dtroll:

Jabroni
02-18-2005, 01:00 AM
Shingo saves by month:
June (he took over half way): 3
July: 5
August: 6
September: 5

Homefish, are you bitching just to bitch? :?:
:dtroll:According to those numbers, if Shingo had been our closer for the entire season he could have finished with 33 saves. He probably would have had even more than 33 because the Sox were winning alot more in the beginning of the season.

HomeFish
02-18-2005, 01:01 AM
Shingo saves by month:
June (he took over half way): 3
July: 5
August: 6
September: 5


Again, if I recall correctly, a lot of those saves still involved multi-run innings, and I believe that his ERA increased as the year went on.

Statistics don't tell the full story. You're not always going to get a 3-run padding when you come out of the bullpen.

Moreover, apart from a statistical argument, you can, of course, make a theoretical argument about Shingo and his inherent ability to be effective or not.

Erik The Red
02-18-2005, 01:01 AM
I'd love to see him bean the new mascot with it, a la "Bull Durham"
"I'm serious... I don't know where the next one's goin'..."

santo=dorf
02-18-2005, 01:04 AM
ERA by month:
Mar and April: 3.86
May: 0.00
June: 0.77
July: .96
August: 7.36
September and Oct: 1.54

He had one bad month yet you keep holding that against him and that one bad month is enough to convince you that he's not a real closer. Go back to rooting for the Cubs, maybe then you'll actually say something positive about the Sox.
:troll

Jabroni
02-18-2005, 01:08 AM
ERA by month:
Mar and April: 3.86
May: 0.00
June: 0.77
July: .96
August: 7.36
September and Oct: 1.54

He had one bad month yet you keep holding that against him and that one bad month is enough to convince you that he's not a real closer. Go back to rooting for the Cubs, maybe then you'll actually say something positive about the Sox.Great point. Shingo's September and October ERA shows that opposing hitters weren't simply "figuring him out" since he dominated in those months after struggling in August.

I think HomeFish is just jealous that his true favorite team doesn't even have a closer. :rolleyes:

PAPChiSox729
02-18-2005, 01:15 AM
ERA by month:
Mar and April: 3.86
May: 0.00
June: 0.77
July: .96
August: 7.36
September and Oct: 1.54


Very interesting. This really poses a problem for the 'Figuring out Shingo' argument. More likely, Shingo was being overworked and all of the innings took its toll in August. His entire season is being overlooked because of one bad month.

HebrewHammer
02-18-2005, 01:21 AM
iirc, some of those saves involved multi-run innings and made generous rule of the 3-run or tying run on deck (or is it in the hole?) rule. Boston comes to mind.

I'd like to see Shingo consistently get saves over an entire season. That's an effective closer. I don't think he's capable of it, but I will gladly eat my words if he is.

That said, if he does indeed now have a cutter, I forsee great initial results. I just don't see them lasting until September.

What? EVERY closer gets a few "gimme" saves. He still got the job done.

I honestly don't know what else you want the man to do to prove himself as a closer, 19 out of 20, low ERA. I'd let the man throw a pitch before I start naysaying. I will also gladly eat my words, but I don't think I'll have to.

santo=dorf
02-18-2005, 01:21 AM
Very interesting. This really poses a problem for the 'Figuring out Shingo' argument. More likely, Shingo was being overworked and all of the innings took its toll in August. His entire season is being overlooked because of one bad month.

:worship: Thank you.

Great point. Shingo's September and October ERA shows that opposing hitters weren't simply "figuring him out" since he dominated in those months after struggling in August.

I think HomeFish is just jealous that his true favorite team doesn't even have a closer. :rolleyes:

But his ERA in September and October was more than twice his ERA in June when he intially took over the closer's duties!

Jabroni
02-18-2005, 01:25 AM
Very interesting. This really poses a problem for the 'Figuring out Shingo' argument. More likely, Shingo was being overworked and all of the innings took its toll in August. His entire season is being overlooked because of one bad month.
Shingo wasn't especially overworked in August...

Innings Pitched (by month) (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_player_splits.jsp?playerID=430968&statType=2):
Mar & Apr: 7.0
May: 11.2
June: 11.2
July: 9.1
Aug: 11.0
Sept & Oct: 11.2

If you recall, his ERA skyrocketed after his blown save on August 7th in which he gave up 3 runs against the predominately lefty lineup of the Cleveland Indians. Shingo's only weakness is pitching against lefties. Hopefully, his new cutter (if that's what the new pitch is :wink: ) will put Shingo over the top and help him dominate both righties AND lefties.

HomeFish
02-18-2005, 01:28 AM
What? EVERY closer gets a few "gimme" saves. He still got the job done.

I honestly don't know what else you want the man to do to prove himself as a closer, 19 out of 20, low ERA. I'd let the man throw a pitch before I start naysaying. I will also gladly eat my words, but I don't think I'll have to.

Again, stats don't tell the full story.

Shingo simply strikes me as extremely "fragile"; his success as something delicate that can be shattered at any moment. With Shingo, there have always been lots of close calls; lots of frisbee popups that went all the way to the warning track. He just doesn't strike me as dominating, which I think is needed in a closer.

HomeFish
02-18-2005, 01:29 AM
Also: I am disagreeing with a good many of you, but you don't see me resort to personal attacks or accusations of fandom of a certain other team. I would appreciate the same sort of treatment in return.

Jabroni
02-18-2005, 01:30 AM
Again, stats don't tell the full story.

Shingo simply strikes me as extremely "fragile"; his success as something delicate that can be shattered at any moment. With Shingo, there have always been lots of close calls; lots of frisbee popups that went all the way to the warning track. He just doesn't strike me as dominating, which I think is needed in a closer.Aren't you the same guy that said you wished we had a "power pitcher" like Kyle Farnsworth because a guy like him would really help improve our bullpen? Well, guess what? Kyle Farnsworth and his 100 MPH fastball own a career 4.78 ERA. :rolleyes:
Also: I am disagreeing with a good many of you, but you don't see me resort to personal attacks or accusations of fandom of a certain other team. I would appreciate the same sort of treatment in return.Okay, fine. From now on we will just call you Mr. Negative or Buzzkill. :tongue:

slavko
02-18-2005, 01:55 AM
I thought that he lost his pinpoint control as the season went on and that took him deeper into counts than he went when he first took over the closer's job. Can one of you stat guys back me up (or tear me down) on this?

santo=dorf
02-18-2005, 01:55 AM
lots of frisbee popups that went all the way to the warning track.

Examples. now.

You really painted yourself into a corner Homefish.

SoxSpeed22
02-18-2005, 02:12 AM
ERA by month:
Mar and April: 3.86
May: 0.00
June: 0.77
July: .96
August: 7.36
September and Oct: 1.54

He had one bad month yet you keep holding that against him and that one bad month is enough to convince you that he's not a real closer. Go back to rooting for the Cubs, maybe then you'll actually say something positive about the Sox.
:trollAugust, coincidentally when the ERA of THE WHOLE TEAM skyrocketed. they gave up 179 runs in 29 games (>6 runs per game) Jose Contreras and Neal Cotts were the only ones who didn't have exponentially higher ERAs in August. I said it before and I'll say it again, I blame the pitching problems on those two clowns we had behind the plate, who couldn't call a game. That is why AJ is here.

BRDSR
02-18-2005, 02:26 AM
Shingo simply strikes me as extremely "fragile"; his success as something delicate that can be shattered at any moment.

I don't think this theory holds a lot of water. You can call someone fragile based on 19 saves in one season in America, but its hard to call someone fragile who has 260 saves over a decade in Japan. The man now has past success(to the tune of all-time saves leader) in Japan and success in America. That doesn't seem delicate or shatterable. Now, if Shingo saved 95% of his games for an entire season in 2005, I would be surprised. But I wouldn't be surprised with 85-90%, and that would still be very successful. The Japanese league may not be MLB, but it ain't no little league either. Lets give them some respect.

SoxFan76
02-18-2005, 04:49 AM
Aren't you the same guy that said you wished we had a "power pitcher" like Kyle Farnsworth because a guy like him would really help improve our bullpen? Well, guess what? Kyle Farnsworth and his 100 MPH fastball own a career 4.78 ERA. :rolleyes:
Okay, fine. From now on we will just call you Mr. Negative or Buzzkill. :tongue:

4.78 in the NL!!!

johnny_mostil
02-18-2005, 08:39 AM
Good. I've been hearing the Chicken Littles talk for months about the league "adjusting to Shingo." Well, yeah, they'll adjust. But who says Shingo is incapable of adjusting back?

Outside of the Boston Red Sox, who tormented all relievers, Rivera included, who exactly adjusted to Shingo? That 7.36 ERA in August was significantly inflated because Boston got him for four runs in two saves.

This is statistical myopia.

Ol' No. 2
02-18-2005, 10:04 AM
Outside of the Boston Red Sox, who tormented all relievers, Rivera included, who exactly adjusted to Shingo? That 7.36 ERA in August was significantly inflated because Boston got him for four runs in two saves.

This is statistical myopia.Statistical myopia, indeed.

April: 4 goose-eggs in 6 appearances...7.0 IP....3 ER
May: 11 goose-eggs in 11 appearances...11.2 IP...ZERO ER
June: 10 goose-eggs in 11 appearances...11.2 IP...1 ER
July: 6 goose-eggs in 8 appearances...9.1 IP...1 ER (1 unearned)
Aug: 8 goose-eggs in 12 appearances...11.0 IP...9 ER
Sep/Oct: 9 goose-eggs in 11 appearances...11.2 IP...2 ER

So overall, he was untouched in 48 of his 59 appearances (81%) with an overall ERA of 2.31. Nobody figured him out toward the end of the year. A few teams got lucky. August was nothing more than a statistical anomaly. He only seemed to drop off because he was so dominant early.

StockdaleForVeep
02-18-2005, 10:18 AM
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00009AOAW.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

"shooto?"

Iwritecode
02-18-2005, 10:20 AM
Change the name "Shingo" to "Foulke" and we were having this EXACT same arguement just a couple of years ago. Foulke lives and dies by his changeup. Shingo pretty much does the same thing.

Amazingly enough, Foulke now has an extra piece of jewerly. It doesn't seem like the batters have adjusted to him yet.

Shingo will be fine.

gobears1987
02-18-2005, 10:26 AM
Very interesting. This really poses a problem for the 'Figuring out Shingo' argument. More likely, Shingo was being overworked and all of the innings took its toll in August. His entire season is being overlooked because of one bad month.

Most of the August runs came when he gave up 2 runs in both games at Fenway where he pitched. Boston was the only team that could consistently hit him and we see them 6 times a year. Besides, both games were multi-inning appearances. Shingo was overworked due to the fact Marte couldn't set up. We now have an upgraded bullpen. If Marte can return to 2003 form Shingo will have a much easier job.

Mickster
02-18-2005, 10:29 AM
Interestingly enough, the same CSN report by Levine mentioned that El Duque was clocked as high as 94 and as low as 65 with his off-speed junk in the 2nd day of camp. :smile:

PAPChiSox729
02-18-2005, 10:38 AM
Interestingly enough, the same CSN report by Levine mentioned that El Duque was clocked as high as 94 and as low as 65 with his off-speed junk in the 2nd day of camp. :smile:

29 mph difference? Wow. What was the biggest difference for Shingo? I thought it was 88 mph fastball, 64 mph frisbee. That is only a 24 mph difference. An extra 5 mph can make a huge difference. Then again, I really don't think that El Duque will consistently hit 94 mph during a start. But I really hope that El Duque news proves to be true.
:D:

Ol' No. 2
02-18-2005, 10:40 AM
29 mph difference? Wow. What was the biggest difference for Shingo? I thought it was 88 mph fastball, 64 mph frisbee. That is only a 24 mph difference. An extra 5 mph can make a huge difference. Then again, I really don't think that El Duque will consistently hit 94 mph during a start. But I really hope that El Duque news proves to be true.
:D:I thought I saw Shingo get a few down in the 50's.

mjharrison72
02-18-2005, 10:52 AM
I don't think this theory holds a lot of water. You can call someone fragile based on 19 saves in one season in America, but its hard to call someone fragile who has 260 saves over a decade in Japan. The man now has past success(to the tune of all-time saves leader) in Japan and success in America. That doesn't seem delicate or shatterable. Now, if Shingo saved 95% of his games for an entire season in 2005, I would be surprised. But I wouldn't be surprised with 85-90%, and that would still be very successful. The Japanese league may not be MLB, but it ain't no little league either. Lets give them some respect.
I agree... I think his track record in Japan proves he has the mentality of a closer. I think we have discussed in the past that being a MLB closer is 20% physical and 90% mental.

HomeFish
02-18-2005, 10:57 AM
Examples. now.

An early start against Baltimore comes to mind. I believe that Carlis Lee had to go all the way to the wall, and had his back literally against the wall when he caught a Javy Lopez ball with the bases loaded.

In a later game against Seattle, Shingo either loaded the bases or put at least two guys on. This was Nesting Doll Night. Rowand had to end it with a deep catch.

6th_starter
02-18-2005, 10:58 AM
Maybe shingo has been working on the knuckler ... frisbee , cutter, knuckler ...he gone:D:

CubKilla
02-18-2005, 11:02 AM
Good. I've been hearing the Chicken Littles talk for months about the league "adjusting to Shingo." Well, yeah, they'll adjust. But who says Shingo is incapable of adjusting back?

By "Chicken Littles", are you referring to those that know nothing is a lock for the White Sox this season and that they are merely looking at the season from an objective POV..... and not through Sox-colored glasses?

pythons007
02-18-2005, 11:11 AM
An early start against Baltimore comes to mind. I believe that Carlis Lee had to go all the way to the wall, and had his back literally against the wall when he caught a Javy Lopez ball with the bases loaded.

In a later game against Seattle, Shingo either loaded the bases or put at least two guys on. This was Nesting Doll Night. Rowand had to end it with a deep catch.

An out is an out, until they consistantly start leaving the yard, that is when I will start to worry. Lets face facts here guys!! Shingo is our closer and he had a great year last year. I mean his nickname is "Mr. Zero". Until he proves otherwise give the guy his credit.

voodoochile
02-18-2005, 11:18 AM
I thought I saw Shingo get a few down in the 50's.

I remember it that way too.

IWC also made a great point. This was the exact argument people made in the Foulke situation - I was one of the ones who didn't hate the Koch trade.

Fool me once shame on you.

Fool me twice shame on me.

Go-Shin-Go-shin-Go-Shin-Go!:supernana:

voodoochile
02-18-2005, 11:19 AM
Maybe shingo has been working on the knuckler ... frisbee , cutter, knuckler ...he gone:D:

How about a knuckle/frisbee...:o:

What would that be a butterfly pitch?

santo=dorf
02-18-2005, 11:32 AM
An early start against Baltimore comes to mind. I believe that Carlis Lee had to go all the way to the wall, and had his back literally against the wall when he caught a Javy Lopez ball with the bases loaded.

In a later game against Seattle, Shingo either loaded the bases or put at least two guys on. This was Nesting Doll Night. Rowand had to end it with a deep catch.

I remember that Baltimore game, but that wasn't in the ninth inning, and he wasn't the closer. You want a flamethrower for a closer, and they are more likely to give you nail-biting warning track flyball outs.

Is this the Seattle game you are a talking about 9/03?
Instead, Takatsu gave up a leadoff double to former White Sox catcher Miguel Olivo and then watched as Jose Lopez reached base on Joe Crede's error. Takatsu hung tough, though, getting the biggest out of the game against the best hitter in the American League.

Look at his game log, (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/stats/cws_individual_player_gamebygamelog.jsp?playerID=4 30968&statType=2) and you'll see that he was being overused at that point, and it didn't help that the bullpen was composed of Munoz, Diaz, Bajenaru, Adkins, Cotts, and Marte at the time. :rolleyes:

PAPChiSox729
02-18-2005, 11:34 AM
I thought I saw Shingo get a few down in the 50's.
50 mph? Really? My mistake. Sorry.

HomeFish
02-18-2005, 11:36 AM
I remember that Baltimore game, but that wasn't in the ninth inning, and he wasn't the closer. You want a flamethrower for a closer, and they are more likely to give you nail-biting warning track flyball outs.

Is this the Seattle game you are a talking about 9/03?


Look at his game log, (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/stats/cws_individual_player_gamebygamelog.jsp?playerID=4 30968&statType=2) and you'll see that he was being overused at that point, and it didn't help that the bullpen was composed of Munoz, Diaz, Bajenaru, Adkins, Cotts, and Marte at the time. :rolleyes:

Since 9/03 seems to be an away game, it can't be the game I have in mind. This one was a home game started by Garland. I believe it was Magglio's first day back from injury before he got re-put on the DL.

HomeFish
02-18-2005, 11:37 AM
50 mph? Really? My mistake. Sorry.

Shingo once ended a game against the Twins with a 50mph called third strike.

HebrewHammer
02-18-2005, 11:47 AM
Again, stats don't tell the full story.

Shingo simply strikes me as extremely "fragile"; his success as something delicate that can be shattered at any moment. With Shingo, there have always been lots of close calls; lots of frisbee popups that went all the way to the warning track. He just doesn't strike me as dominating, which I think is needed in a closer.

19 out of 20 and he had a "Reliever's Perfect Game" last year, meaning 27 consecutive outs with out a baserunner. If that isn't dominance I don't know what is. So he was able to induce catchable flyballs? I'd rather that than the Billy Koch gopher ball. There are a lot of close calls with ANY pitcher.

I think it comes down to the fact that he can't light up a radar gun. I really couldn't care less as long as he gets the job done. Call him a junkballer, fine, just don't diminish what he has accomplished.

DaleJRFan
02-18-2005, 12:59 PM
E-Lo sure said some stupid things upon leaving the Sox (i.e. poor run support comment)

Not to get off topic, but the run-support comment was right on. Again, how many 1-0, 2-0, 2-1 games did Este lose to the Tigers in '03? This was one comment that he made, and I don't understand everyone who claims he was talking trash about the white sox when he left. I distinctly remember him saying he'd love to come back if he could.

So how many pitches does that make for Shingo? 3 different changeups, breaking pitch, 85mph fastball and a cutter... WOW.

And to all who say that the league will catch up with Shingo second time around... how did he manage to be so successful for so long in Japan? He adjusted to the hitters. He will do the same in MLB.

RichFitztightly
02-18-2005, 01:07 PM
Interestingly enough, the same CSN report by Levine mentioned that El Duque was clocked as high as 94 and as low as 65 with his off-speed junk in the 2nd day of camp. :smile:

That 65mph pitch was probably his Eephus pitch, which he throws every so often. Basically, he just lobs the ball over the plate. It's not a true change up in the sense that there's nothing decieving with his motion/arm speed. All he does is change the speed of the ball to give the fastball a little extra giddy-up to the batter's eyes.

A. Cavatica
02-18-2005, 01:12 PM
Shingo still reminds me of Salome Barojas. Both came out of nowhere and made batters look stupid with wacky offspeed stuff. Batters didn't figure out Barojas until his third season.

http://baseballreference.com/b/barojsa01.shtml

In Shingo's favor, he faced fewer batters than Barojas did, and he was even more effective. On the other hand, Shingo's a lot older.

santo=dorf
02-18-2005, 01:24 PM
Since 9/03 seems to be an away game, it can't be the game I have in mind. This one was a home game started by Garland. I believe it was Magglio's first day back from injury before he got re-put on the DL.

Like I said, look at his ****ing game log and you can figure out which games are home games and which are away games.

After doing your work again, I found the outing that you are talking about:
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/sea/news/sea_gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20040709&content_id=794043&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp

They also had two in the ninth but pinch-hitter John Olerud ended things with a towering popup to deep center.
So because a Sox killer like John Olerud had a popup against Shingo in a non-save situation, you don't have confidence in him. Nice argument. Every relief pitcher has an outing like that, and many more pitchers have more outings like that than Shingo.
Any more single game moments you would like to blurt out at the top of you head? On second thought, I'm tired of doing the research for you and your pathetic "argument." :dtroll:

MisterB
02-18-2005, 01:41 PM
Not to get off topic, but the run-support comment was right on. Again, how many 1-0, 2-0, 2-1 games did Este lose to the Tigers in '03? This was one comment that he made, and I don't understand everyone who claims he was talking trash about the white sox when he left. I distinctly remember him saying he'd love to come back if he could.

He was using lack of run support as an excuse for his mediocre performance in '04, which was complete bull. He had the 12th best run support in the AL, and that didn't all come after he went to the Yanks. Just looking at his overall numbers you can see he wasn't the same pitcher he was in '03. His batting average against jumped 30 points, his strikeout rate dropped by a third. If he had owned up to his so-so play (a la Koch) it would have been one thing, but the excuse making some of us just don't buy.