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gobears1987
02-17-2005, 03:54 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the real single season HR record now stands at 61 (no asterick). Roger Marris did it without steroids while the people who have passed him all were on it. Sammy Sosa is named in Canseco's book, but we knew he was on it long before that. McGuire and Bonds were on it so their records ought to be removed. I hope MLB can come to this same conclusion.

eastchicagosoxfan
02-17-2005, 07:21 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the real single season HR record now stands at 61 (no asterick). Roger Marris did it without steroids while the people who have passed him all were on it. Sammy Sosa is named in Canseco's book, but we knew he was on it long before that. McGuire and Bonds were on it so their records ought to be removed. I hope MLB can come to this same conclusion.
I disagree. I don't think MLB can cleanse the records. I don't agree with the use of steriods, but I'd like to see MLB get a policy, enforce it, and move forward. MLB didn't have a policy in place. As for the guys who used steriods, let historians and fans deal with them. Let the Hall of Fame deal with them. It would kill those egotistical SOB's such as Sosa and Bonds to be denied their place in Cooperstown. The past is the past, the future is open for debate and undetermined.

jortafan
02-17-2005, 07:45 PM
As far as I'm concerned, Maris is still the record holder.

After all, no American League player has topped his mark of 61 home runs. Regardless of what you think of the rest of these mopes, Maris still has the American League record for the most home runs in a single season.

Since I could care less about anything from the National League, it will be easy for me to disregard McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds.

And for those of you who think I'm being absurd, ignoring the National League is less ridiculous than any talk of erasing statistics from the record books or putting asterisks next to ballplayers' names.

Ol' No. 2
02-17-2005, 08:06 PM
I disagree. I don't think MLB can cleanse the records. I don't agree with the use of steriods, but I'd like to see MLB get a policy, enforce it, and move forward. MLB didn't have a policy in place. As for the guys who used steriods, let historians and fans deal with them. Let the Hall of Fame deal with them. It would kill those egotistical SOB's such as Sosa and Bonds to be denied their place in Cooperstown. The past is the past, the future is open for debate and undetermined.There's no written rule against using the ventilation system to favor your team. Does that make it legal? Just because it's not written down somewhere does not make it legal. There's a reason they all hid what they were doing.

Awards and records gotten dishonestly were not earned and should be rescinded.

eastchicagosoxfan
02-17-2005, 09:39 PM
There's no written rule against using the ventilation system to favor your team. Does that make it legal? Just because it's not written down somewhere does not make it legal. There's a reason they all hid what they were doing.

Awards and records gotten dishonestly were not earned and should be rescinded.
I agree with your sentiment, but if say, McGwire does not admit guilt, can it be proven? I don't know the answer, I'm posing the question. Bonds has admitted guilt, although as a sin of ommission. Would they have legal avenues to pursue? Would anyone voluntarily give up a record? Were these players really hiding anything? Their use of steriods had to be known within the MLB community. The guys who lacked a conscience, at least in the area of performing enhancing drugs, took advantage of a loophole. If MLB can make a ruling about the " juiced era ", and make it stick, that's great. I don't think it'll be that easy. I realize that maintaining their records and awards smears the game, but so may dragging this out. I'd rather move forward, and I think there are other ways to punish the users and abusers. Heck, players in the 1800's set amazing records in pitching, which are hardly acknowledged, and those guys played within the rules, the same thing can happen to McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, and the other players suspected in this era.One more question, were steriods as pervasive in baseball over the past ten years as gambling was in the first 20 years of the 20th century, and were they just as detrimental?

ode to veeck
02-17-2005, 10:14 PM
I agree with your sentiment, but if say, McGwire does not admit guilt, can it be proven?

Ditto for Sham-Me and to some extent Bonds (at least for 70 HR season), even though we all know better, hence the paradox. They ought to at least asterisk the heck out of all of them, except that would be admitting there really was a problem.

Brian26
02-17-2005, 10:15 PM
Ironically, I got into a huge discussion with the guy behind the counter at the post office today regarding Maris and the 61 homers. He was complaining about the asterik too.

He had a great quote about the steroids though:

"If it ain't street legal, then it shouldn't count. If I can't buy the stuff on the street, then give the record back to Maris!"

gobears1987
02-18-2005, 09:00 AM
"If I can't buy the stuff on the street, then give the record back to Maris!"
Amen brother!

Ol' No. 2
02-18-2005, 09:24 AM
I agree with your sentiment, but if say, McGwire does not admit guilt, can it be proven? I don't know the answer, I'm posing the question. Bonds has admitted guilt, although as a sin of ommission. Would they have legal avenues to pursue? Would anyone voluntarily give up a record? Were these players really hiding anything? Their use of steriods had to be known within the MLB community. The guys who lacked a conscience, at least in the area of performing enhancing drugs, took advantage of a loophole. If MLB can make a ruling about the " juiced era ", and make it stick, that's great. I don't think it'll be that easy. I realize that maintaining their records and awards smears the game, but so may dragging this out. I'd rather move forward, and I think there are other ways to punish the users and abusers. Heck, players in the 1800's set amazing records in pitching, which are hardly acknowledged, and those guys played within the rules, the same thing can happen to McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, and the other players suspected in this era.One more question, were steriods as pervasive in baseball over the past ten years as gambling was in the first 20 years of the 20th century, and were they just as detrimental?McGwire is a difficult case. He admitted to using Andro at the time and nobody said he couldn't, so it's hard to retroactively penalize him for that. If he was using something else, as Canseco has accused, that's a different story.

idseer
02-18-2005, 09:42 AM
whether 'baseball' somehow acknowledges the taintedness of these records or not is of little consequence. the pooch is already screwed and there is no way to unscrew it.

it's now up to the individual to consider things the way they want to.
for me, major league baseball as i perceived it ended right around 1990.
all records up till then are in stone.
maris is the single season hr winner. aaron is the lifetime hr winner. ruth is the all time hr percentage winner. it's OVER!

todays game, which i will continue to follow, is a new game. stats may be higher but the players don't impress me much anymore (with exceptions).
mcguire, who has shrunk back to his normal size (i can't believe there are still people out there who aren't convinced he cheated just like cansaco, giambi etc. must be the same ones who refused to believe bonds took anything), is no homerun king in my book. sosa is a guy who at his peak should have hit MAYBE 30 homeruns. nothing special about either of these guys. bonds could have been one of the best but now we'll never know. imo he just another real good ball player who may have reached the hall legitimately.

the sox won 2 world series and that's that!

let's hope they can win one in this new game with the same name.

CubKilla
02-18-2005, 10:13 AM
I've come to the conclusion that the real single season HR record now stands at 61 (no asterick). I hope MLB can come to this same conclusion.

They won't. And remember that the HoF is filled with cheaters.

DumpJerry
02-18-2005, 12:52 PM
This argument will be moot when Big Frank hits number 80 well before the 154th game this year. You heard it here first. This is not in teal.:D:

Fenway
02-18-2005, 01:04 PM
This series ran in the Boston Herald 2 years ago

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/images/otherMLB/TaitedEra.gif

It is an excellent read.

Part 1
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/otherMLB/view.bg?articleid=68507
Part 2
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/otherMLB/view.bg?articleid=68508
Part 3
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/otherMLB/view.bg?articleid=68509
Part 4
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/otherMLB/view.bg?articleid=68510
Part 5
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/otherMLB/view.bg?articleid=68511

jshanahanjr
02-18-2005, 02:24 PM
Mark is smaller than he was in his playing days, but so is Tom Thayer. Are we saying all guys that shrink were on the juice? Maybe they don't spend hours in the weight room as they once did? Just a thought. Nobody knows who juiced except the player and JC.

Ol' No. 2
02-18-2005, 02:27 PM
Mark is smaller than he was in his playing days, but so is Tom Thayer. Are we saying all guys that shrink were on the juice? Maybe they don't spend hours in the weight room as they once did? Just a thought. Nobody knows who juiced except the player and JC.JC = Jose Canseco?:tongue:

D. TODD
02-18-2005, 02:47 PM
Bonds is the single season home-run king, period. You can debate his merits all you want, but you can't take the fact that nobody has hit more in one season. Should Gaylord Perry be stricken from the 300 game winner list, because he "juiced" the ball up? Everyone is entitled to their opinions but the facts remain. Gaylord won his games and Barry slugged his homers. If the games are not forfeited for their actions their feats remain.

Ol' No. 2
02-18-2005, 02:59 PM
Bonds is the single season home-run king, period. You can debate his merits all you want, but you can't take the fact that nobody has hit more in one season. Should Gaylord Perry be stricken from the 300 game winner list, because he "juiced" the ball up? Everyone is entitled to their opinions but the facts remain. Gaylord won his games and Barry slugged his homers. If the games are not forfeited for their actions their feats remain.Then Ben Johnson is the world record holder in the 100m.
Bonds did not hit 73 HR. Steroids hit 73 HR. If you're going to leave it in the record books, change it to correctly reflect the truth.

HR (single season)
73 (2001) - The cream and the clear

eastchicagosoxfan
02-18-2005, 03:04 PM
Then Ben Johnson is the world record holder in the 100m.
Bonds did not hit 73 HR. Steroids hit 73 HR. If you're going to leave it in the record books, change it to correctly reflect the truth.

HR (single season)
73 (2001) - The cream and the clear
Call it the juiced era. Fans nowadays don't look at Old Hoss Radburn's 63 wins in 1884? as being associated with the modern game. I don't view Bond's achievements as legitimate, but MLB is unlikely to change the outcome.

Ol' No. 2
02-18-2005, 03:10 PM
Call it the juiced era. Fans nowadays don't look at Old Hoss Radburn's 63 wins in 1884? as being associated with the modern game. I don't view Bond's achievements as legitimate, but MLB is unlikely to change the outcome.Right now, I'd tend to agree with you that MLB is unlikely to expunge any records. They've got buckets of whitewash at the ready. But this thing is starting to get legs and I wouldn't want to predict where it will wind up.

gobears1987
02-18-2005, 03:25 PM
They won't. And remember that the HoF is filled with cheaters.
I know they won't. Selig is too much of a moron to do it.

eastchicagosoxfan
02-18-2005, 03:47 PM
Right now, I'd tend to agree with you that MLB is unlikely to expunge any records. They've got buckets of whitewash at the ready. But this thing is starting to get legs and I wouldn't want to predict where it will wind up.
There are a couple a things that can happen, in my mind. One of the accused can come clean. America loves to forgive, so it might not be as bad as some may believe. That would be the most likely, IMO. MLB could authorize an investigation. MLB could authorize an independent investigation. Congress could order hearings, and if needed, threaten to withdraw MLB's exempt status from anti-trust laws. That always gets MLB's attention. My guess is that this thing has just begun, and steroids were very pervasive in MLB. And it was common knowledge.

jshanahanjr
02-18-2005, 04:18 PM
JC = Jose Canseco?:tongue:

I don't know, but he can't hit a good curve ball.

nccwsfan
02-18-2005, 09:57 PM
Should they put asterisks by the records, MVP's, Hall of Famers? Yes.

Will they? I don't see it.


What upsets me is that it dilutes some of the game's greatest records/acheivements to debatable fodder. I grew up hearing about the legend of Babe Ruth and the incredible things Hank Aaron had to endure to become the all time HR King. Soon this record will be held by a guy who will have virtually zero legitimacy at being #1. In other words- a wasted record, just like the season HR record.

How could anyone aside from a myopic SF Giants fan be happy at Bonds' passing of Ruth & Aaron is beyond me- Selig is a nincompoop for wasting everyone's time in celebrating this illegitimate effort by Bonds.