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Two By Four
02-13-2005, 07:43 PM
Hey everyone. As some of you know I work at the new agency that will be doing the new marketing campaign for the Sox. To that end, I have a simple question: Does the word "Grinder" mean anything to you?

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 07:46 PM
Hey everyone. As some of you know I work at the new agency that will be doing the new marketing campaign for the Sox. To that end, I have a simple question: Does the word "Grinder" mean anything to you?It didn't mean a thing to me until Kenny started using it last year. I think most fans who follow the Sox more than just casually understand it to mean a hard-working player who gives 100% all the time.

OEO Magglio
02-13-2005, 07:48 PM
It didn't mean a thing to me until Kenny started using it last year. I think most fans who follow the Sox more than just casually understand it to mean a hard-working player who gives 100% all the time.
Agreed. Aaron Rowand is always the first player that comest to mind whenever that term is used.

RedHeadPaleHoser
02-13-2005, 07:50 PM
It didn't mean a thing to me until Kenny started using it last year. I think most fans who follow the Sox more than just casually understand it to mean a hard-working player who gives 100% all the time.

I hear Grinder, I also think of Rowand, but also Konerko cuz he shows up for every game...as well as Damaso Marte...taking mid inning relief onto his shoulders.

Two By Four
02-13-2005, 07:52 PM
I hear Grinder, I also think of Rowand, but also Konerko cuz he shows up for every game...as well as Damaso Marte...taking mid inning relief onto his shoulders.

Anyone on the team that isn't a Grinder?

TornLabrum
02-13-2005, 07:52 PM
"Grinder" is a term I first heard used by Kenny Williams. To me it's a guy who may not have the best natural ability in the world but who "grinds it out" and does whatever it takes to win through hard work.

The personification of that on the present day White Sox is Aaron Rowand. The ultimate grinder in Sox history was probably Nellie Fox.

Tom~Attitude
02-13-2005, 07:53 PM
First impression, in a sports connotation, is a person who comes to play..a hard worker..no whining..picks it up and spits it out...a positive trait in a worker!

Secondly...a tasty sandwich!

fquaye149
02-13-2005, 07:55 PM
Anyone on the team that isn't a Grinder?

i don't necessarily mean this as a slam against them (although it might certainly be taken that way) but some who might be seen as non-grinders might be: willie harris, carl everett, and jon garland.

I don't know much about Uribe or Dye's work habits, but based on style of play and practice philosophies, I think everyone else on the team could be described as grinder's in one way or another.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 08:11 PM
i don't necessarily mean this as a slam against them (although it might certainly be taken that way) but some who might be seen as non-grinders might be: willie harris, carl everett, and jon garland.

I don't know much about Uribe or Dye's work habits, but based on style of play and practice philosophies, I think everyone else on the team could be described as grinder's in one way or another.Kenny would disagree with you on Everett, and I think I would, too. He's one of the first guys I heard Kenny apply that label to.

Carlos Lee was not a grinder, which is one of the reasons he's gone. Often didn't hustle, didn't run out grounders or fly balls, or much of anything, now that I think of it.

HomeFish
02-13-2005, 08:16 PM
Timo Perez is a grinder. He is not the best player in the world, he never will be. But you'd never know that if you seem him on the basepaths or bunting.

Particularly not if you're a certain Cubs pitcher, it seems. What he did to Zambrano that game stands out in my mind as the chief example of grinderdom; his game-tying suicide bunt against the Twins also.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 08:18 PM
Timo Perez is a grinder. He is not the best player in the world, he never will be. But you'd never know that if you seem him on the basepaths or bunting.

Particularly not if you're a certain Cubs pitcher, it seems. What he did to Zambrano that game stands out in my mind as the chief example of grinderdom; his game-tying suicide bunt against the Twins also.Perez is another good example. I think there's also an element of doing whatever it takes to win, also implying an unselfishness.

Two By Four
02-13-2005, 08:19 PM
Okay, sounds like I'm on to something here. So, by player, what would be the "Grinder" thing they do. For example Rowand would crash into the wall, Timo would bunt...what about the other players? I'd like to end up with one Grinder type play for each player on the team.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 08:26 PM
Okay, sounds like I'm on to something here. So, by player, what would be the "Grinder" thing they do. For example Rowand would crash into the wall, Timo would bunt...what about the other players?I don't think you can confine it to one thing. It's doing whatever you're called upon to do to help the team, and that could be different things in different situations. Doing whatever the team needs you to do is an essential part of "Grinderism". Hitting behind the runner, working the count, breaking up a double play - often it's pretty unspectactular, but it's the little things that win baseball games. It's also many things that fans often don't see - working hard in practices to execute particular defensive plays.

Two By Four
02-13-2005, 08:29 PM
I don't think you can confine it to one thing. It's doing whatever you're called upon to do to help the team, and that could be different things in different situations. Doing whatever the team needs you to do is an essential part of "Grinderism". Hitting behind the runner, working the count, breaking up a double play - often it's pretty unspectactular, but it's the little things that win baseball games. It's also many things that fans often don't see - working hard in practices to execute particular defensive plays.

Yes, I agree, being a Grinder is all of those things. What I mean though is, give me examples of the players that come to mind given the specific types of plays. For example you mentioned Hitting behind the runner, working the count, etc. What players come to mind when you say those specific things.

I understand the Grinder part is the cummulation of all that.

fusillirob1983
02-13-2005, 08:32 PM
Some may disagree with me on this, but I remember a lot of times when Frank would foul off a bunch of pitches before blasting a homer.

lths06
02-13-2005, 08:37 PM
Are you working on a presentation thats due tomorrow, Two by Four? :tongue: :D:
And I think of Aaron running into walls for a fly ball, Timo Perez rounding second and going to third on a single hit to right field, Shingo Takatsu shutting the opposing team out 1-2-3 to win the game.
EDIT Also Timo drag-bunting for a single.

santo=dorf
02-13-2005, 08:38 PM
When I think of "grinder" I think of Uribe (I believe KW mentioned his name when he was talking about grinders last season.) Check out the play he made on 7/23/04 . (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player_media.jsp?player_id=346874)

lths06
02-13-2005, 08:41 PM
Also, if you need a clip, I would HIGHLY recomend the "Come on Timo, Come on Timo" call by Hawk. I would say that is the pinnacle of "grinding".

Brian26
02-13-2005, 08:42 PM
Are you working on a presentation thats due tomorrow, Two by Four? :tongue: :D:
And I think of Aaron running into walls for a fly ball, Timo Perez rounding second and going to third on a single hit to right field, Shingo Takatsu shutting the opposing team out 1-2-3 to win the game.
EDIT Also Timo drag-bunting for a single.

Crede shooting a ball the opposite way down the 1st baseline in a key situation to score three runners.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 08:42 PM
Some may disagree with me on this, but I remember a lot of times when Frank would foul off a bunch of pitches before blasting a homer.I was thinking of this, too. Wasn't he the one who had something like a 16-pitch at-bat last year. This means the pitcher has thrown a whole inning's worth of pitches to one batter. Not only does it wear him down, but it give the rest of the team the opportunity to see everything he's got. People think of FT as the slugger, but he ALWAYS has the highest OBP on the team.

Timo Perez' disrupting Zambrano last year is another great example that Homefish already mentioned. The "Come on, Timo" is another grinder act. He's not the fastest guy on the team, but he uses everything he has.

When I think of Rowand, what makes him a grinder is not crashing into walls, but the hard work he's put in to make himself into at top-notch ballplayer. To look at him, he's not exactly the prototypical center fielder, which is why people keep underestimating him. But he's worked unbelievably hard to make himself into the player he is. He does what the team needs. If he's hitting at the top of the order he's getting on base and he runs the bases smart. In the middle of the order he's driving the ball to try to drive in runs. Also, his off-season workouts are legendary. Ask Kelly Wunsch.

Konerko is what people think of as a power hitter, but he also hits behind the runner when needed. at SoxFest, Kenny mentioned a game late in the season last year when he was working on his 40th HR and the team was already out of it. A lot of players would be swinging for that HR, but he hit a grounder to the right side to advance the runner. Classic grinderism.

lths06
02-13-2005, 08:47 PM
When I think of Rowand, what makes him a grinder is not crashing into walls, but the hard work he's put in to make himself into at top-notch ballplayer. To look at him, he's not exactly the prototypical center fielder, which is why people keep underestimating him. But he's worked unbelievably hard to make himself into the player he is. He does what the team needs. If he's hitting at the top of the order he's getting on base and he runs the bases smart. In the middle of the order he's driving the ball to try to drive in runs. Also, his off-season workouts are legendary. Ask Kelly Wunsch.
While I agree with this 100%, you cannot possibly show this in a commercial. I think showing Aaaron slamming into a wall shows something that would be considered "grinding", and is something Sox fans identify w/ ARow

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 08:51 PM
While I agree with this 100%, you cannot possibly show this in a commercial. I think showing Aaaron slamming into a wall shows something that would be considered "grinding", and is something Sox fans identify w/ ARowWhy not? Remember the old Walter Payton Nike (?) commercials that showed him running up the hill? You could show him training and practicing - the dull stuff that makes a grinder - then the spectacular catch. And the catch phrase: "Grinders are made - not born".

lths06
02-13-2005, 08:54 PM
Why not? Remember the old Walter Payton Nike (?) commercials that showed him running up the hill? You could show him training and practicing - the dull stuff that makes a grinder - then the spectacular catch. And the catch phrase: "Grinders are made - not born".

True, I was just assuming he wanted a commerical w/ multiple White Sox players. And, I know people are going to disagree w/ me on this, but I don't think Aaron Rowand is popular enough to make a whole commerical centered around him. He just doesn't have the name recognition as a Frank Thomas or Konerko. Everybody knew who Walter Peyton was...so it worked.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 08:56 PM
True, I was just assuming he wanted a commerical w/ multiple White Sox players. And, I know people are going to disagree w/ me on this, but I don't think Aaron Rowand is popular enough to make a whole commerical centered around him. He just doesn't have the name recognition as a Frank Thomas or Konerko. Everybody knew who Walter Peyton is...so it works.True. But you could do the same kind of thing with anyone. To me, the essence of being a grinder is not just the play that everyone sees, but also the hard work that went on to produce it.

lths06
02-13-2005, 09:01 PM
True. But you could do the same kind of thing with anyone. To me, the essence of being a grinder is not just the play that everyone sees, but also the hard work that went on to produce it.
I would like that kind of commercial, but the only problem is that it could be said about basically any baseball player on any team (if you wanted to show him lifting waits, practicing, running up hills, ect.) You need something that distinguishes him (or the other players) from the rest. That's where him slamming into the wall, "come on Timo" comes in.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 09:07 PM
I would like that kind of commercial, but the only problem is that it could be said about basically any baseball player on any team (if you wanted to show him lifting waits, practicing, running up hills, ect.) You need something that distinguishes him (or the other players) from the rest. That's where him slamming into the wall, "come on Timo" comes in.I think you show that, too. That's the culmination that comes from the hard work. One problem is that this theme has been pretty much worked to death. It's in commercials for shoes, sports drinks, and a bunch of other stuff. But they use it so much because it works.

Edit: Now that I think of it, you may want to steer clear of lifting weights. Too many negative connotations right now.

lths06
02-13-2005, 09:10 PM
I think you show that, too. That's the culmination that comes from the hard work. One problem is that this theme has been pretty much worked to death. It's in commercials for shoes, sports drinks, and a bunch of other stuff. But they use it so much because it works.

Perhaps. I like how we are telling the marketing guy what a good marketing stratagey is. It's not like he has a degree in marketing or anything...:smile:

Two By Four
02-13-2005, 09:21 PM
Perhaps. I like how we are telling the marketing guy what a good marketing stratagey is. It's not like he has a degree in marketing or anything...:smile:

Hey, no degree ever replaced passion. The people here love this team and while a lot of the actual ideas they come up with will never make it into a commercial, the thinking behind why they think it would make a good commeercial will. Like I said earlier, all of the tv has already been concepted, in fact we are leaving soon to go shot all of it. So no one is going to see their ideas on the big screen. But what I hoped would happen on this thread is happening. Some of the things I assumed about certain players has been confirmed. Other things about players I did not know and have learned. So it's all good. Except for one guy who thinks he should get paid to do my job, everyone has been really helpful.

Thanks.

Slats
02-13-2005, 09:21 PM
I dunno, the first thing that I think of when I hear Grinder is Chicago Pizza and Oven Grinders on Clark Street. (pot pie style pizza..good stuff)

Grinder to me is a sandwich

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 09:27 PM
I dunno, the first thing that I think of when I hear Grinder is Chicago Pizza and Oven Grinders on Clark Street. (pot pie style pizza..good stuff)

Grinder to me is a sandwichMaybe they could work a sandwich into the shot somehow. Kind of a little play on words.:cool:

lths06
02-13-2005, 09:33 PM
Maybe they could work a sandwich into the shot somehow. Kind of a little play on words.:cool:
Yeah, maybe we should have a commercial where we (the grinders) destroy the other team (the poor boys), where we win by "grinding it out".

DaleJRFan
02-13-2005, 09:34 PM
This is a really loose definition of where the term Grinder came from in the sporting world, as I do not have a lot of time to proof read, etc.. .so I'm just gunna type it...

Grinder is a term that came from Hockey. There is a style of extremely physical hockey called "Dump and Grind". This style came from the late 60s and was still around in the game until some of the old school hockey guys started leaving the game, as many European finess players came into the NHL. The point of dump and grind is when you are moving into your offense, the forward handling the punk will dump it into the offensive zone along the boards. The rest of his line will skate in as hard and fast as possible, checking (and ultimately beating the crap out of) the opponants. You then, hopefully, poke the puck out into the slot (the space directly in front of the goal box) for your most talented puck handler to tip/slap/poke in. Now that players skate faster, handle the puck better, and honestly, are a bunch of metro-sexual whimps with blonde highlights and five o'clock shadows, this style of play left the game with the players who made it famous.

Some of us Blackhawks fans may remember Mike Keanan using this style of hockey in the late 80s and early 90s. The players who took part in this style of hockey weren't flashy skaters, talented puck handlers, rather, they were fearless, aggressive hard-charging players who were willing to sacrifice their bodies for the sake of forechecking and keeping the puck in their zone.

A grinder isn't the guy who makes the cover of SI. A grinder isnt the player who wins MVP. Grinders don't get carried off of the field on the teammate's shoulders after a championship winning 3 run home run. A grinder is the guy who will take a Clemens 96mph fastball in the back to get on base for the middle of the order. A grinder is a guy who will run down the catcher coming in hard to the plate. A grinder is a guy who will poke the ball to the opposite field and move the runners along, break up a double play with a hard slide into second base, dive into the seats for a foul ball... Grinders are the guys you don't hear about, don't see in the headlines. Grinders are the guys who will sacrifice their bodies and glory to WIN.

Hope this helps... I wanted to add my 2 cents since the term came from my true love, which is hockey.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 09:35 PM
Yeah, maybe we should have a commercial where we (the grinders) destroy the other team (the poor boys), where we win by "grinding it out".:rolling:
nice idea...maybe we can work a meat grinder in there somewhere...:tongue:

lths06
02-13-2005, 09:37 PM
:rolling:
nice idea...maybe we can work a meat grinder in there somewhere...:tongue:
White Sox Baseball: USDA certified grade A baseball

Two By Four
02-13-2005, 09:43 PM
A grinder isn't the guy who makes the cover of SI. A grinder isnt the player who wins MVP. Grinders don't get carried off of the field on the teammate's shoulders after a championship winning 3 run home run. A grinder is the guy who will take a Clemens 96mph fastball in the back to get on base for the middle of the order. A grinder is a guy who will run down the catcher coming in hard to the plate. A grinder is a guy who will poke the ball to the opposite field and move the runners along, break up a double play with a hard slide into second base, dive into the seats for a foul ball... Grinders are the guys you don't hear about, don't see in the headlines. Grinders are the guys who will sacrifice their bodies and glory to WIN.

Excellent response...some of the same stuff you mentioned IS already incorporated into the new work we are doing. Thanks.

Hope this helps... I wanted to add my 2 cents since the term came from my true love, which is hockey.

This is EXACTLY the kind of response I was looking for. You see we believe that what makes this team good (and marketable) is the fact that there are really no superstars. That's what makes someone like Rowand so perfect to talk about. Or Timo. Or Shingo. Or Uribe...and so on. As individuals they are just tough hard-nosed players. As a team, all playing that way together and for each other, they are the team that will Win or die trying.

Thanks for such a good response.

Lip Man 1
02-13-2005, 09:58 PM
The only thing that matters to a 'grinder' is whether or not the team he plays for won or lost the game.

Individual stats mean nothing to a grinder...he's a guy who'll give himself up and hit the ball the other way to advance a runner.

A grinder will go hard into second base and break up the double play.

A grinder will cheer on a teammate or if needed take a teammate aside and tell him he has to work harder.

A grinder is willing to take responsibility for his actions and not blame it on fans (are you listening Jon Garland?), the media, the weather or the fact that he has a head cold. A grinder doesn't make excuses.

A grinder has respect for his opponents, his team, and the city he plays for.

Lip

TornLabrum
02-13-2005, 10:24 PM
The only thing that matters to a 'grinder' is whether or not the team he plays for won or lost the game.

Individual stats mean nothing to a grinder...he's a guy who'll give himself up and hit the ball the other way to advance a runner.

A grinder will go hard into second base and break up the double play.

A grinder will cheer on a teammate or if needed take a teammate aside and tell him he has to work harder.

A grinder is willing to take responsibility for his actions and not blame it on fans (are you listening Jon Garland?), the media, the weather or the fact that he has a head cold. A grinder doesn't make excuses.

A grinder has respect for his opponents, his team, and the city he plays for.

Lip

What Lip said! This is about as good a definition of a grinder as I've heard!

GiveMeSox
02-13-2005, 10:55 PM
Hey everyone. As some of you know I work at the new agency that will be doing the new marketing campaign for the Sox. To that end, I have a simple question: Does the word "Grinder" mean anything to you?

The problem is unless your a white sox fan, especially the die hards like on these boards, the word "gringer" means sub sandwhich. Mancino's grinders and pizza, mmmmmmm!!

StillMissOzzie
02-13-2005, 11:27 PM
Okay, sounds like I'm on to something here. So, by player, what would be the "Grinder" thing they do. For example Rowand would crash into the wall, Timo would bunt...what about the other players? I'd like to end up with one Grinder type play for each player on the team.

IMHO, you'd wanna include Crede diving in the dirt for a hot grounder. Or any player getting their uniform dirty on a play. A pitcher punching out a strike 3 on a batter. A catcher getting bowled over at the plate and hanging onto the ball, or lunging for a pop-up. Konerko leaping for an errant throw and sweeping a tag on the baserunner. Either the SS (Uribe?)or 2B (Amy be a bit tougher w/ Iguchi) leaping out of the way of an oncoming baserunner to complete a double play.

SMO
:gulp:

The_Cheesiest_Idiot
02-13-2005, 11:50 PM
i've got a great idea. you should do a commercial with a man and a monkey. ya know, an organ grinder. actually make the man ozzie. have the monkey playing nah nah nah nah. have ozzie turn to the camera and say, "this is not the kind of grinder i was talkin about." then cut to some fast music and show guys running hard, diving to catch balls, aaron running into walls, guys sliding hard into second to break up a double play. show guys giving their all. then cut to the screen saying "white sox baseball" "playin hard in 05" or something like that. then cut back to ozzie saying "now that's what i'm talkin about"

fuzzy_patters
02-13-2005, 11:53 PM
To me, a grinder is a guy who might not be the most talented athlete, but he is willing to fight to perform at the same level as the superior athletes.

In this way Mark Buehrle is the ultimate grinder. He does not posess a 95 MPH fastball or a Mike Mussina curveball. Instead he consistently pitches on the inner half of the plate and is not afraid of anybody.

To a lesser extent Jamie Burke is a good example of a grinder. He is not very talented, but he manages to contribute and actually hit over .300 last year. You can just tell that he would die to help his team win.

Whitesox029
02-13-2005, 11:59 PM
"Grinder" seems to be synonymous with another more common term used by most baseball broadcasters to describe players of that type, that being "Gamer." I can't count the number of times I heard Robin Ventura referred to as a Gamer. I actually think Hawk still uses "Gamer" more.

BainesHOF
02-14-2005, 02:34 AM
Hey everyone. As some of you know I work at the new agency that will be doing the new marketing campaign for the Sox. To that end, I have a simple question: Does the word "Grinder" mean anything to you?

Using "grinder" in a marketing campaign would be a mistake. The word is dull and boring in itself, means nothing to casual fans and certainly wouldn't be a selling point to hardcore fans.

Next idea, please.

Cubbiesuck13
02-14-2005, 03:15 AM
I was thinking of this, too. Wasn't he the one who had something like a 16-pitch at-bat last year. This means the pitcher has thrown a whole inning's worth of pitches to one batter. Not only does it wear him down, but it give the rest of the team the opportunity to see everything he's got. People think of FT as the slugger, but he ALWAYS has the highest OBP on the team.

Timo Perez' disrupting Zambrano last year is another great example that Homefish already mentioned. The "Come on, Timo" is another grinder act. He's not the fastest guy on the team, but he uses everything he has.

When I think of Rowand, what makes him a grinder is not crashing into walls, but the hard work he's put in to make himself into at top-notch ballplayer. To look at him, he's not exactly the prototypical center fielder, which is why people keep underestimating him. But he's worked unbelievably hard to make himself into the player he is. He does what the team needs. If he's hitting at the top of the order he's getting on base and he runs the bases smart. In the middle of the order he's driving the ball to try to drive in runs. Also, his off-season workouts are legendary. Ask Kelly Wunsch.

Konerko is what people think of as a power hitter, but he also hits behind the runner when needed. at SoxFest, Kenny mentioned a game late in the season last year when he was working on his 40th HR and the team was already out of it. A lot of players would be swinging for that HR, but he hit a grounder to the right side to advance the runner. Classic grinderism.


I was thinking about his off season work outs too. Does anyone else remember last off season when they had an article a week (it seemed) about his progress? He was living in Las Vegas working out all day and staying in at night and one night they found out he talked to Frank but he wouldn't say anything about him. According to the Cubune, his workout was hard core and after reading it I was hoping he would have a break out year and sho' nuff he did. To paraphrase what he said his reasoning for working out so hard, "I don't have the best ability, I'm not the strongest or the fastest so I have to work harder than everyone else" Grinder.

shoota
02-14-2005, 03:26 AM
Twobyfour: Please don't do any marketing with Joe Crede. I really don't like when a player who hasn't met his potential is shoved down our throats because the team is trying to hype up its next star.

Rowand is a grinder, but please don't portray him as a mindless player who regularly crashes into walls. I remember a game a couple years ago when Buehrle had a no hitter going and Rowand caught a ball while slamming into the wall. Rowand did that for Buehrle, because he didn't want to let down a teammate. That's also a trait of a grinder. So if you're going to show Rowand crash into a wall, set up the commercial with a little background of WHY he's UNSELFISHLY putting his safety at risk. Show Buehrle pitching on the mound, getting out after out. Show him getting a 6-4-3 double play. And then say something like, "Buehrle wound up losing his bid for a no hitter, but it wasn't on this play, and it wasn't because his brothers let him down." as Buehrle winds and delivers the long fly ball. Follow up with, "Rowand took a face of wall to give his teammate a chance to get a face of pie." If you don't know the shaving cream pie-in-the-face history, ask anyone here.

That Timo v Zambrano was classic and I would love to see that as a commercial especially because it shows the Sox superiority to the Cubs.

Carl Everett is a gamer, though he had a down year last season.

Konerko and Buehrle are also grinders.

jenmcm76
02-14-2005, 09:11 AM
Grinder is a term that came from Hockey. There is a style of extremely physical hockey called "Dump and Grind".

There's also a term called the "Bump and Grind"... but its origins are completely different. :o:

wdelaney72
02-14-2005, 09:20 AM
Frank's ability to ALWAYS take a walk and get on base makes him a grinder. Frank could very easily go out there, swing for the fences and probably increase his HR totals, but he doesn't. He's a perfect example of a guy who places more value on getting on base, as opposed to being the flashy superstar. That's being a team player, doing whatever it takes for a win, and definitely classifies him as a "grinder".

JRIG
02-14-2005, 09:24 AM
Frank's ability to ALWAYS take a walk and get on base makes him a grinder. Frank could very easily go out there, swing for the fences and probably increase his HR totals, but he doesn't. He's a perfect example of a guy who places more value on getting on base, as opposed to being the flashy superstar. That's being a team player, doing whatever it takes for a win, and definitely classifies him as a "grinder".

This is a great point. One of my favorite things about watching Sox games is watching Frank's at bats, no matter what he does. Working the count, working the pitcher, waiting for the right pitch...or...taking a walk. It's a thing of beauty.

voodoochile
02-14-2005, 09:33 AM
Frank's ability to ALWAYS take a walk and get on base makes him a grinder. Frank could very easily go out there, swing for the fences and probably increase his HR totals, but he doesn't. He's a perfect example of a guy who places more value on getting on base, as opposed to being the flashy superstar. That's being a team player, doing whatever it takes for a win, and definitely classifies him as a "grinder".

I was going to mention Frank, but figured people would just laugh at me as a Frank Fan. Frank seems to be the least likely to be called a "grinder", but I was thinking about that huge extra inning walk off shot he hit against the Twins in 2003 when he fouled off like 10 pitches in a really long AB before jacking the game winner deep into the LF seats. He certainly was a grinder at that moment, patiently fouling off pitch after pitch before getting the one he could tag.

I think it would make a great part of any marketing campaign.

Palehose13
02-14-2005, 10:30 AM
I was going to mention Frank, but figured people would just laugh at me as a Frank Fan. Frank seems to be the least likely to be called a "grinder", but I was thinking about that huge extra inning walk off shot he hit against the Twins in 2003 when he fouled off like 10 pitches in a really long AB before jacking the game winner deep into the LF seats. He certainly was a grinder at that moment, patiently fouling off pitch after pitch before getting the one he could tag.

I think it would make a great part of any marketing campaign.

I agree and IMO the way Frank works the pitchers is what makes him such a great hitter. Frank isn't just a power hitter, and watching him work the pitcher is a thing of beauty.

I have to disagree with whoever thought that Carl Everett isn't a grinder. I think he definitely is.

The definitions that Dale and Lip provided are great and if I could sum up grinder in one word is would be "passionate".

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 10:35 AM
i've got a great idea. you should do a commercial with a man and a monkey. ya know, an organ grinder. actually make the man ozzie. have the monkey playing nah nah nah nah. have ozzie turn to the camera and say, "this is not the kind of grinder i was talkin about." then cut to some fast music and show guys running hard, diving to catch balls, aaron running into walls, guys sliding hard into second to break up a double play. show guys giving their all. then cut to the screen saying "white sox baseball" "playin hard in 05" or something like that. then cut back to ozzie saying "now that's what i'm talkin about"Clever concept. I like it!:smile:

Flight #24
02-14-2005, 11:17 AM
If they actually implemnt an ad campaign around "grinders", how long can it be before Hawk's accepting postgame nominations for the "Quizno's Grinder of the day"?

spawn
02-14-2005, 11:17 AM
I'm late seeing this thread, so please excuse me if this has already been mentioned, as I have not read every post. But a couple that I can think of are Paulie getting the runner over to third with less than 2 outs (something Sosa wouldn't dream of doing), Timo bunting for a base hit with the bases loaded, or someone going hard into second to break up a double play. Pretty much, a grinder is someone trying to do the little things to help the team win. But I'm sure that all this has probably been covered, so once again, pease forgive me if I've been repetitive.

mjharrison72
02-14-2005, 11:28 AM
A grinder isn't the guy who makes the cover of SI. A grinder isnt the player who wins MVP. Grinders don't get carried off of the field on the teammate's shoulders after a championship winning 3 run home run. A grinder is the guy who will take a Clemens 96mph fastball in the back to get on base for the middle of the order. A grinder is a guy who will run down the catcher coming in hard to the plate. A grinder is a guy who will poke the ball to the opposite field and move the runners along, break up a double play with a hard slide into second base, dive into the seats for a foul ball... Grinders are the guys you don't hear about, don't see in the headlines. Grinders are the guys who will sacrifice their bodies and glory to WIN.
And think of the guys on the team... last year, even though they were leading the Twins in the Central at the AS break, they had only one guy on the All-Star team. Frank is our most potent slugger, but he's an afterthought to most in the national media. This is a team full of guys who won't get on the cover of SI or win MVP.
I love the idea, but I have to agree the first thing I thought of is a sandwich.:rolleyes:

mweflen
02-14-2005, 01:06 PM
Tony G. was the epitome of "grinder." Always broke up double plays, always tried to go the other way.

Two By Four
02-14-2005, 01:08 PM
Using "grinder" in a marketing campaign would be a mistake. The word is dull and boring in itself, means nothing to casual fans and certainly wouldn't be a selling point to hardcore fans.

Next idea, please.

Seems there are a lot of hard core fans that would disagree with you here.

mweflen
02-14-2005, 01:24 PM
"Under the Radar."

I'm telling you, it's the catchy phrase of the year. Whisper it to yourself, get the feeling...

"Under the Radar..."

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 01:25 PM
Seems there are a lot of hard core fans that would disagree with you here.He does make a good point, though, that while we all understand what is meant by "grinder", the casual fan may not. You will probably need to make sure it's clear what grinder means.

Iwritecode
02-14-2005, 01:40 PM
Grinder was what my dad uses (or used to at least) as a CB handle. He worked in a machine shop and I believe that was his actual job title.

For me, those big long sandwiches are called "subs". :wink:

maurice
02-14-2005, 02:11 PM
IMHO, a "grinder" is a player whose value to the team exceeds their talent level, because they're willing to do whatever it takes to win without any regard for their statistics, health, or general "coolness." Examples include diving for balls, situational hitting, HBP, taking pitches, quality base-running (not necessarily base-stealing), and a willingness to play out of position if the manager asks.

These sorts of "hidden plays" are typically ignored by casual sports fans but greatly appreciated by the minority of MLB fans who know the game. For example, Sox fans (and Cards fans, for example) cheer when the first out of the inning scores one of their players from third (or advances a runner from second to third) because they appreciate situational hitting. Casual fans (for example, a typical crowd at the Urinal) cheer when THE OTHER TEAM hits a run-scoring sac fly, because they're happy that their pitcher made an out, didn't know there was a runner on third, and/or don't understand that the runner is able to advance on a fly-ball out.

Everett definitely qualifies as a grinder. Two examples:
- He's an underrated situational hitter, who's willing to give up a chance at a HR to hit behind a runner.
- He agreed to move to CF during his first stint with the Sox despite obvious physical limitations, especially knee pain.

On another note, the death of "dump and grind" hockey coincided with the influx of European players, but also with the expansion of ice surfaces. It's much easier for a slow, grinder-type forward to play on a small ice surface. Big surfaces favor smaller, quicker players, who use space to handle the puck and skate away from danger.

gosox41
02-14-2005, 02:24 PM
Hey everyone. As some of you know I work at the new agency that will be doing the new marketing campaign for the Sox. To that end, I have a simple question: Does the word "Grinder" mean anything to you?

To me it means someone who makes the most of their talent by working hard and always ready to play.

I like the term 'hard-nosed' better. It implies a toughness or an attitude and has a much better meanin then 'grinder.'


Bob

Two By Four
02-14-2005, 02:57 PM
You will probably need to make sure it's clear what grinder means.

Exactly. You see we need to connect casual fans to something that the hard core fans know and love. I think that is Grinder. Despite the sandwich reference, we can redefine that word for people, first through the team, then the organization, then the fan. Eventually, the idea is to make it cool to be a Grinder, whether you're a fan, a hot dog vendor, or a player.

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 03:03 PM
Exactly. You see we need to connect casual fans to something that the hard core fans know and love. I think that is Grinder. Despite the sandwich reference, we can redefine that word for people, first through the team, then the organization, then the fan. Eventually, the idea is to make it cool to be a Grinder, whether you're a fan, a hot dog vendor, or a player.Sounds like a great idea. People understand what it means conceptually. They just may have not heard the term or know it by another name. But it has a broad-based appeal and people instinctively connect with the idea. I think it will do well. Is this the overall theme of Sox advertising for the whole season? Grinder T-shirts and other paraphenalia could be a nice adjunct.

Flight #24
02-14-2005, 03:04 PM
Exactly. You see we need to connect casual fans to something that the hard core fans know and love. I think that is Grinder. Despite the sandwich reference, we can redefine that word for people, first through the team, then the organization, then the fan. Eventually, the idea is to make it cool to be a Grinder, whether you're a fan, a hot dog vendor, or a player.

What about a "What is a grinder" take on it? Show a sandwich, then Ozzie shakes his head. Then maybe a definition pops up onscreen with video clips of Sox grinders: ARow, Everett, etc. Cut to Sox Pride logo.

Two By Four
02-14-2005, 03:07 PM
Is this the overall theme of Sox advertising for the whole season? Grinder T-shirts and other paraphenalia could be a nice adjunct.

Well, lets not get ahead of ourselves...Any marketing for a sports team has a ton to do with how well the team is doing. Needless-to-say a ton of losses makes any marketing campaign a struggle, especially one that is claiming that these guys will do whatever it takes to win. So don't think of it as a slogan so much, more of an overall feeling that we are trying to convey. There will be several rounds of work that we'll develop over time. Some of which I might run up the flag pole here. Stay tuned...

Two By Four
02-14-2005, 03:13 PM
You need that talented player to get hot and carry the team to win the in playoffs.

I couldn't agree more. But I do think players will emerge, and having a "Grinder" mentality is a great one for a "team" to have. That does not mean that that team can't have superstars, in fact as you pointed out, I agree it must to win it all. But by having the culture be one that starts with hard-nosed play—Grinder play—I think there is a better chance for a spark to catch and star players to emerge.

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 03:18 PM
Well, lets not get ahead of ourselves...Any marketing for a sports team has a ton to do with how well the team is doing. Needless-to-say a ton of losses makes any marketing campaign a struggle, especially one that is claiming that these guys will do whatever it takes to win. So don't think of it as a slogan so much, more of an overall feeling that we are trying to convey. There will be several rounds of work that we'll develop over time. Some of which I might run up the flag pole here. Stay tuned...I'm just thinking of all the people running around Boston with "Idiot" T-shirts last year. Obviously, the team has to win for that to work, but I could see the idea catching on.

Jjav829
02-14-2005, 03:22 PM
IMO, grinder speaks more to the person than the player. When I think of a grinder, I think more of the player who will always put the team ahead of himself; someone who is willing to sacrifice himself for the team. It's hard to define exactly what a grinder is, and I'm sure it's even harder to visualize that definition. The fine line is between what is an act that a grinder would do and what is just good baseball. I would disagree that Frank working a count is a "grinder-ish" act. That's just baseball. If you consider that an act of a grinder, then you're basically saying that any good baseball act makes a person a grinder. It really seems like a fine line. As someone said earlier, grinder has sort of taken over for gamer. I think it has more to do with the mentality of the player and the way that mentality plays out in the way the player plays the game.

rdivaldi
02-14-2005, 03:40 PM
I agree with all those who are supporting leaving the "grinder" marketing campaign out with the trash. It's just too vague and really doesn't hold the imagination of the everyday Sox fan IMO. Probably much more suited for a Bears ad campaign.

Stick with "Sox Pride" and "Under the radar".

Two By Four
02-14-2005, 04:17 PM
Stick with "Sox Pride" and "Under the radar".

As far as I know, there is no "Under the Radar" campaign.

rdivaldi
02-14-2005, 04:37 PM
As far as I know, there is no "Under the Radar" campaign.

That's too bad, I thought that would have been cool, as did some others. Probably not enough to sway a marketing department though.

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 04:49 PM
That's too bad, I thought that would have been cool, as did some others. Probably not enough to sway a marketing department though.For a marketing campaign you need to show the team in terms that people will identify with. People identify with a grinder - someone who works at his profession and does the little things necessary to win. People identified with "Sox Pride". "Under the Radar" may be clever, but there's nothing for people to identify with. How can you make a big marketing splash and be Under the Radar at the same time?

TheBull19
02-14-2005, 05:25 PM
some who might be seen as non-grinders might be: willie harris, carl everett, and jon garland.

.

Please - Everett, when healthy, is one the biggest hustlers in the game. He may be criticized for being whacky, but the man is an old-school gamer.

I think the term "grinder" is stupid, though, I wouldn't recommend using it in marketing.

rdivaldi
02-14-2005, 07:44 PM
For a marketing campaign you need to show the team in terms that people will identify with. People identify with a grinder - someone who works at his profession and does the little things necessary to win. People identified with "Sox Pride". "Under the Radar" may be clever, but there's nothing for people to identify with. How can you make a big marketing splash and be Under the Radar at the same time?

True. The Grinder thing has just been mocked by too many of us though, don't you think? I would still avoid it.

eastchicagosoxfan
02-14-2005, 08:35 PM
How about showing the Sox players, in cartoon, forming a giant meat grinder, with some players operating it, and others throwing in the opposition, and fragments of the other teams coming out of the machine. Nothing concrete here, just a concept.

MRKARNO
02-14-2005, 08:54 PM
The only thing that matters to a 'grinder' is whether or not the team he plays for won or lost the game.

Individual stats mean nothing to a grinder...he's a guy who'll give himself up and hit the ball the other way to advance a runner.

A grinder will go hard into second base and break up the double play.

A grinder will cheer on a teammate or if needed take a teammate aside and tell him he has to work harder.

A grinder is willing to take responsibility for his actions and not blame it on fans (are you listening Jon Garland?), the media, the weather or the fact that he has a head cold. A grinder doesn't make excuses.

A grinder has respect for his opponents, his team, and the city he plays for.

Lip

I revise my earlier characterization of a grinder to this definition because I happen to like it a lot better than my grinder as a role player definiton.

But I do think that it's unfair to say that a grinder cannot be a star or win MVP awards or whatnot. They are more likely to be underrated, but that shouldnt mean that winning an award and them becoming a star wouldn't make a player a grinder. Rowand might still be a "grinder" this year, but if he keeps up what he did last year or improves on what he did last year, there's no denying that he's an offensive star, simply put.

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 08:57 PM
True. The Grinder thing has just been mocked by too many of us though, don't you think? I would still avoid it.Forget about the word "grinder" and think about the concept. Hard working players that give up their personal good to help the team win. I think it markets beautifully. It's what everybody thinks playing sports should be.

WinningUgly!
02-14-2005, 09:06 PM
But I do think that it's unfair to say that a grinder cannot be a star or win MVP awards or whatnot. They are more likely to be underrated, but that shouldnt mean that winning an award and them becoming a star wouldn't make a player a grinder.

I agree. Pete Rose was the king of all grinders.

MRKARNO
02-14-2005, 09:14 PM
The thing I failed to recognize earlier is that the term "grinder" really applies to an attitude and not a given set of offensive stats. It really is almost synonymous with gamer, as far as I understand it. It might be a little different, but they have similar meanings.

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 09:30 PM
I agree. Pete Rose was the king of all grinders.Bingo. It's a way of approaching the game.

eastchicagosoxfan
02-14-2005, 10:23 PM
Forget about the word "grinder" and think about the concept. Hard working players that give up their personal good to help the team win. I think it markets beautifully. It's what everybody thinks playing sports should be.
I did the opposite, and thought about the word " grinder " beyond what I considered KW's connoatation. I used it's denotation instead, and tried to incorporate it into something real. Personifying the Sox players as a giant grinder, and with some creativity, it can be used to demonstrate the Sox players are gamers. An old grinder, operated by hand, operated slowly, but it always got the job done. Pete Rose is a good example of the type of player KW wants. Personify his attitude when he played.

tacosalbarojas
02-14-2005, 11:19 PM
Tony G. was the epitome of "grinder." Always broke up double plays, always tried to go the other way.
Exactly on Tony G.! Regardless of traditional definitions, what KW had in mind when he talked about grinders were guys that didn't have eye-popping HR and batting statistics. Vizquel is one guy I think KW had in mind. I also think he had in mind guys like Luis Rivas and Mike Cuddyer. Guys who don't stand out for anything to anyone but at the end of the day their team has put one in the left hand column. I don't think KW was thinking of pitching at all when he brought up that we "needed more grinders." It was all about we've got all these 40 HR, 100 RBI guys and we have no skins on the wall to show for their efforts.