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Fredsox
02-13-2005, 04:36 PM
Phil Roger's column in the Cubune today has a section on how the Padres are re-tooling from a HR-oriented team to a pitching and speed team, just like the White Sox are doing.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-050212rogers,1,7450651.column?coll=cs-home-utility

"The Padres have joined the White Sox in trying to make their team faster, partly because they play in spacious Petco Park and partly because they expect the stolen base to increase in value with a stronger anti-steroid program."

Is this an impact of the new steroid testing? Will teams like the Sox and the Pods be better prepared to compete in a post-steroids era? Also, how much good will this do the Sox with the Cell playing small? Is baseball returning to a game that is dominated by pitching and speed?

The theory seems to have some merit. If players are going to get smaller, if power totals will drop, the teams that are more geared towards manufacturing runs versus being a big-inning team would seem to be the way to go. Of course, even if the theory is valid you still need to have the players produce effectively.

misty60481
02-13-2005, 04:41 PM
I dont expect to much of a return to pitching, defense, and speed,,,the last time that type of baseball was played attendance fell way off---people like to see the power hitters..they lowered the mound to help the hitters--

kittle42
02-14-2005, 12:34 AM
Phil Roger's

Who is he?

Whitesox029
02-14-2005, 12:49 AM
Who is he?
UHHHH OHHHH.... HERE COME......
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2488
A little MS Paint job...all in good fun, Kittle!

:supernana:

HebrewHammer
02-14-2005, 01:22 AM
I think we're going to see ballplayers coming in a lot smaller this year. It's going to be interesting to see how some of the more homer happy ballclubs are going to look, I'm thrilled that the Sox have moved away from this approach. I think we'll find out who has been legit and who has been cheating fairly quickly.

JRIG
02-14-2005, 06:23 AM
I think there's a huge difference between trying to run the "speed and defense" strategy at a place like PetCo, where home runs are never hit...and trying to run it at Coors East, where teams are scoring like it's going out of fashion.

I still have a bad feeling in my stomach we'll see at lot of 8-4 White Sox losses at home this year. Then again, if the pitching completely comes through, we'll have no problem.

MisterB
02-14-2005, 10:31 AM
I think there's a huge difference between trying to run the "speed and defense" strategy at a place like PetCo, where home runs are never hit...and trying to run it at Coors East, where teams are scoring like it's going out of fashion.

I still have a bad feeling in my stomach we'll see at lot of 8-4 White Sox losses at home this year. Then again, if the pitching completely comes through, we'll have no problem.

Looking at the Sox projected lineup, I only see 2 players (Pods and Iguchi) that aren't likely to put up 20+ homers. If you go position-by-position, the only speed-for-power tradeoffs are Pods for Lee and Iguchi for Valentin. That's two positions. It's not like we replaced 2/3 of the lineup with slap singles hitters. It's amazing how home run addicted some Sox fans have become over the last few years.

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 10:43 AM
Phil Roger's column in the Cubune today has a section on how the Padres are re-tooling from a HR-oriented team to a pitching and speed team, just like the White Sox are doing.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-050212rogers,1,7450651.column?coll=cs-home-utility

"The Padres have joined the White Sox in trying to make their team faster, partly because they play in spacious Petco Park and partly because they expect the stolen base to increase in value with a stronger anti-steroid program."

Is this an impact of the new steroid testing? Will teams like the Sox and the Pods be better prepared to compete in a post-steroids era? Also, how much good will this do the Sox with the Cell playing small? Is baseball returning to a game that is dominated by pitching and speed?

The theory seems to have some merit. If players are going to get smaller, if power totals will drop, the teams that are more geared towards manufacturing runs versus being a big-inning team would seem to be the way to go. Of course, even if the theory is valid you still need to have the players produce effectively.I've been saying the same thing for a while. When HR numbers come down to more rational levels, speed and defence becomes relatively more important. And pitchers can pitch without wondering of that popup is going to go 450 ft. Look for other teams to be moving in the same direction over the next few years.

mjharrison72
02-14-2005, 10:48 AM
I think the point of what the Sox have done this offseason is position themselves so they won't live and die by the home run. The Cell is the opposite of Petco park or wherever the Padres play, and yet the teams are doing the same thing. Interesting corrollary about the "post-steriods" era, but I think what both teams are doing is just smart baseball... if you're in a hitter's park, the homers will just come sometimes, so focus on speed and pitching in the offseason. If you're in a pitcher's park, you aren't going to get the homers anyway, so focus on speed and pitching. Agreed they aren't going to put behinds in seats the same way a slugger chasing Hank Aaron would, but I guarantee a playoff-caliber team in either San Diego or on the South Side will pack the stands.

JRIG
02-14-2005, 11:27 AM
Looking at the Sox projected lineup, I only see 2 players (Pods and Iguchi) that aren't likely to put up 20+ homers. If you go position-by-position, the only speed-for-power tradeoffs are Pods for Lee and Iguchi for Valentin. That's two positions. It's not like we replaced 2/3 of the lineup with slap singles hitters. It's amazing how home run addicted some Sox fans have become over the last few years.

Pierzynski won't hit 20 home runs, though he is an upgrade. I don't think Uribe will repeat his power totals from last year either. I would say only Konerko, Dye, Thomas and one of Crede or Rowand are likely to hit 20. More might, but I'm not counting on it.

We'll see a major downgrade in power in left field, shortstop, and right field (from what we're used to, not just counting last season). Upgrades in batting average at catcher and second base will help things.

I don't want to predict doom and gloom. I don't think that's likely. But I also don't think this team is better than it was last season unless the starters throw lights out.

I'l love to be proven wrong and have this team score 900+ runs.

Hangar18
02-14-2005, 12:09 PM
I think there's a huge difference between trying to run the "speed and defense" strategy at a place like PetCo, where home runs are never hit...and trying to run it at Coors East, where teams are scoring like it's going out of fashion.

I still have a bad feeling in my stomach we'll see at lot of 8-4 White Sox losses at home this year. Then again, if the pitching completely comes through, we'll have no problem.

YUP. But our Speed and Defense will have PREVENTED us from
losing 10-4

kittle42
02-14-2005, 01:10 PM
UHHHH OHHHH.... HERE COME......
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2488
A little MS Paint job...all in good fun, Kittle!



:D:

wassagstdu
02-14-2005, 07:01 PM
I've been saying the same thing for a while. When HR numbers come down to more rational levels, speed and defence becomes relatively more important. And pitchers can pitch without wondering of that popup is going to go 450 ft. Look for other teams to be moving in the same direction over the next few years.

Here is an interesting piece that is pretty much in line with my view:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=knight-bobfordsteroidsjuicedowne&prov=knight&type=lgns

But it raises a question. As steroids decline, so will the power numbers, and speed and defense will increase in value. So the Sox are in front of a parade that has a few more teams at least talking the same way, like the Padres and the Mets. So here is the question: Why would the Sox be moving in that direction unless steroids were a factor in their power production? If it were only the "other guys" whose power numbers can be expected to drop off, that would leave the sluggin' Sox in a great position if they could count on theirs staying up. In other words, getting rid of steroids should not increase the value of speed and defense for any team that was not using them, no?

Fredsox
02-14-2005, 08:12 PM
Here is an interesting piece that is pretty much in line with my view:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=knight-bobfordsteroidsjuicedowne&prov=knight&type=lgns

But it raises a question. As steroids decline, so will the power numbers, and speed and defense will increase in value. So the Sox are in front of a parade that has a few more teams at least talking the same way, like the Padres and the Mets. So here is the question: Why would the Sox be moving in that direction unless steroids were a factor in their power production? If it were only the "other guys" whose power numbers can be expected to drop off, that would leave the sluggin' Sox in a great position if they could count on theirs staying up. In other words, getting rid of steroids should not increase the value of speed and defense for any team that was not using them, no?

This is precisely the question I was trying to raise, I think you've done a better job of explaining it (and your grammer is much better than mine as well :tongue:).

The re-shaping of the team was clearly deliberate, and we've all said "well, that's just Ozzie telling KW what he wants". Is it that simple, or is this the Sox reacting to what they think is the new way the game is being played? And then the quiet question is, of course, did they need to change or did they just want to?

My own feeling is that steroids probably had a presence on the Sox as well as on other teams. I believe that KW and Ozzie have a team that they are comfortable is clean now, but that does not necessarily mean that if you're off the team you must have been dirty. On the other hand I think we're probably being naive if we think that the Sox were 100% clean.

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 08:23 PM
This is precisely the question I was trying to raise, I think you've done a better job of explaining it (and your grammer is much better than mine as well :tongue:).

The re-shaping of the team was clearly deliberate, and we've all said "well, that's just Ozzie telling KW what he wants". Is it that simple, or is this the Sox reacting to what they think is the new way the game is being played? And then the quiet question is, of course, did they need to change or did they just want to?

My own feeling is that steroids probably had a presence on the Sox as well as on other teams. I believe that KW and Ozzie have a team that they are comfortable is clean now, but that does not necessarily mean that if you're off the team you must have been dirty. On the other hand I think we're probably being naive if we think that the Sox were 100% clean.Only the most naive would assume the Sox were 100% clean. But recall that it was the Sox who, in 2003 spring training, were about to refuse to take the drug test en masse for the sole purpose of forcing testing to begin. One would have to think that dirty players would not be doing this.

I don't think the shift to speed and defense was motivated solely by the decline in power numbers as players are de-juiced. I think Ozzie genuinely likes and believes in that style of play. And it's undeniable that the power-oriented lineup has not produced the desired results over the last few years. I'm just saying that I think that the huge power numbers that were put up in the last 10 years changed the game, and I believe it's going to change back across all of MLB.

maurice
02-14-2005, 08:26 PM
"Power" involves more than HR. For example, though Valentin had more HR than Uribe in 2004, Uribe had twice as many 3B, significantly more 2B, and a significantly higher SLG . . . (and AVE, OBP, OPS, FPCT, RF, ZR, etc.).

While Rowand, Uribe, Crede, etc. may have fewer HR in 2005, it's silly to assume that all of them will have fewer HR. Heck, a few of them might actually IMPROVE their HR totals. It's not like the Cell's getting any bigger. Players coming to the Sox from other MLB teams should be helped by their new home park.

wassagstdu
02-14-2005, 09:38 PM
I don't think the shift to speed and defense was motivated solely by the decline in power numbers as players are de-juiced. I think Ozzie genuinely likes and believes in that style of play. And it's undeniable that the power-oriented lineup has not produced the desired results over the last few years. I'm just saying that I think that the huge power numbers that were put up in the last 10 years changed the game, and I believe it's going to change back across all of MLB.

Well said. I agree with you. And of course, there is the fact that as speed and defense increase in value, the market value of the kind of player Ozzie and KW have focused on will increase. They are buying in a rising market.

bhambaron
02-15-2005, 09:38 AM
This occurred to me while sitting in traffic this morning and wanted to bounce it off the board and see what you think.



A lot of folks expect homeruns to be down at least a little this year (if not significantly) thanks to the steroid testing. Whether or not that actually happens, of course, remains to be seen. Personally, Iím looking forward to some throwback baseball where 35 homers leads the league.



But if youíre a team going into this season, how would you want your offense built? If homeruns are indeed going to be down, it seems like the Sox might have an advantage building around speed, situational hitting, pitching, and a better defense (particularly in the outfield). Maybe Iím looking for every black & silver lining that I can, but I think it might turn out to be a great philosophy that Ozzie is implementing. Better to go into the season set to excel at ďsmall-ballĒ rather than realize on June 1 that your power guys are sapped and have no back-up plan.


Again, I may be looking too hard for upside, but thatís the beauty of spring training.

Ol' No. 2
02-15-2005, 09:42 AM
This occurred to me while sitting in traffic this morning and wanted to bounce it off the board and see what you think.



A lot of folks expect homeruns to be down at least a little this year (if not significantly) thanks to the steroid testing. Whether or not that actually happens, of course, remains to be seen. Personally, Iím looking forward to some throwback baseball where 35 homers leads the league.



But if youíre a team going into this season, how would you want your offense built? If homeruns are indeed going to be down, it seems like the Sox might have an advantage building around speed, situational hitting, pitching, and a better defense (particularly in the outfield). Maybe Iím looking for every black & silver lining that I can, but I think it might turn out to be a great philosophy that Ozzie is implementing. Better to go into the season set to excel at ďsmall-ballĒ rather than realize on June 1 that your power guys are sapped and have no back-up plan.


Again, I may be looking too hard for upside, but thatís the beauty of spring training.You're a few days late. This has been a topic of discussion for a while.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=45325

bhambaron
02-15-2005, 09:52 AM
That's what I get for joining the board late. At least I know I'm not on a hopeless wave length. Thanks.

Ol' No. 2
02-15-2005, 09:55 AM
That's what I get for joining the board late. At least I know I'm not on a hopeless wave length. Thanks.You gotta be quick around here.:D: