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santo=dorf
02-13-2005, 01:47 PM
:D:
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20050213&content_id=942782&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp
The Chicago White Sox have acquired minor-league outfielder Jerry Owens from the Washington Nationals in exchange for outfielder Alex Escobar.
Owens, who turns 24 on February 16, batted .292 (122-418) with one home run, 37 RBI and 30 stolen bases in 108 games with Class A Savannah in 2004. The 6-foot-3, 195-pound left-hander was selected in the second round of the 2003 First-Year Player Draft

Joosh
02-13-2005, 01:47 PM
Sox Swap Escobar to Nationals for OF Jerry Owens
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20050213&content_id=942782&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp
CHICAGO -- The Chicago White Sox have acquired minor-league outfielder Jerry Owens from the Washington Nationals in exchange for outfielder Alex Escobar.
Owens, who turns 24 on February 16, batted .292 (122-418) with one home run, 37 RBI and 30 stolen bases in 108 games with Class A Savannah in 2004. The 6-foot-3, 195-pound left-hander was selected in the second round of the 2003 First-Year Player Draft.

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 01:58 PM
Jerry Owens is a former UCLA Wide Receiver and is supposed to be extremely fast -- 3.5 seconds to first base on drag bunt and 3.85 on a swing. He definately appears to be a leadoff man. Here are Owens' minor league stats:

http://www.sports-wired.com/profiles/OW/tbc37694.asp

Baseball America (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/features/04top10s/nationals.html) has Jerry Owens listed as the the fastest baserunner and the best athlete of all of the Washington Nationals' prospects.

Our roster is now at 39. Does anyone else think we have a backup utility man that can play SS coming our way?

soxfan43
02-13-2005, 02:05 PM
i was just about to post that question. what utility guys are left either as free agents or trade? Or is this spot possibly going to that pitcher from the Mexican league?

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 02:13 PM
i was just about to post that question. what utility guys are left either as free agents or trade? Or is this spot possibly going to that pitcher from the Mexican league?Kenny already said that Campos won't be joining the roster or be a NRI. I definately see a backup middle infielder coming our way. In any case, another good move by Kenny. He claimed Escobar for nothing and traded him for a decent leadoff hitter prospect. Escobar wasn't going to make our opening day roster anyways.

SOXintheBURGH
02-13-2005, 02:14 PM
Whoa... when are we gonna get a legitimate look at him?

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 02:17 PM
Whoa... when are we gonna get a legitimate look at him?Probably the Birmingham Barons.

FedEx227
02-13-2005, 02:17 PM
Wow nice trade...

Escobar COULD be good but thats the thing, injuries have set him back a ton, and this guy seems to be for real...

hopefully we can get a really good look at ST.

balke
02-13-2005, 02:42 PM
what about that guy in the paper today? Francisco somethin or nother who won the mexican league pitching title. I wouldn't mind a potential fill in 6th starter.

Edit: oops, repost. Stupid comcast has my internet running all slow.

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 02:48 PM
what about that guy in the paper today? Francisco somethin or nother who won the mexican league pitching title. I wouldn't mind a potential fill in 6th starter.

Edit: oops, repost. Stupid comcast has my internet running all slow.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20050209&content_id=941010&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp
Neither Jason Grilli nor Francisco Campos will be in the running for a long relief spot. Despite a strong winter effort for Mazatlan, including 24 strikeouts in the Caribbean World Series, Williams does not have any interest in adding Campos as a non-roster invitee. The 32-year-old right-hander thrived during 'B' level games last Spring Training with the White Sox but was hit hard during his only appearance against Major-League competition. The translation, so to speak, from the Mexican League to the Major Leagues just isn't there, in Williams' opinion.

DrCrawdad
02-13-2005, 02:49 PM
Just curious, what does BA have to say about Jerry Owens?

KW sure likes these guys who've played football.

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 02:50 PM
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/chat/050104af.html
Q: Russ from NY asks:
What does the future hold for former The Masters College product Jerry Owens?

A: Aaron Fitt: Hello everyone, and welcome to the first ever Nationals chat. Let's get going.

Moderator: Jerry Owens could have a very bright future, and he just missed making the top 10. The fastest player in the system, Owens understands his game very well and plays to his strengths, hitting the ball on the ground and learning to work the count. He is a touch old for a guy who spent the year in low Class A, so the Nationals will try to move him quickly and see what he can do - which is one reason they sent him to the Arizona Fall League this year. Once Owens is fully recovered from his shoulder injury, and he should be by Opening Day, he will move from left field to center to take better advantage of his speed.So apparently, Owens could be the Nationals' 11th best prospect.

SEALgep
02-13-2005, 02:53 PM
Alex Escobar (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?leaguenum=&sport=MLB&id=6628) - OF - WAS (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.asp?leaguenum=&sport=MLB&majteam=WAS)

Nationals acquired outfielder Alex Escobar from the White Sox for outfielder Jerry Owens.
Ridiculous. Jim Bowden, forever obsessed with toolsy outfielders, never could get Escobar while he was with the Reds. Now he has him, but there's absolutely no place for him on the roster and he's out of options. If this were a free pickup, then we wouldn't have much of a problem with it, but in trading Owens, a 2003 second-round pick, he's surrendering one of the few position player prospects the Nationals have. A good move by White Sox GM Ken Williams. Feb. 13 - 2:40 pm et

santo=dorf
02-13-2005, 02:53 PM
Nationals acquired outfielder Alex Escobar from the White Sox for outfielder Jerry Owens.
Ridiculous. Jim Bowden, forever obsessed with toolsy outfielders, never could get Escobar while he was with the Reds. Now he has him, but there's absolutely no place for him on the roster and he's out of options. If this were a free pickup, then we wouldn't have much of a problem with it, but in trading Owens, a 2003 second-round pick, he's surrendering one of the few position player prospects the Nationals have. A good move by White Sox GM Ken Williams. Bowden has been one crazy GM this offseason.

EDIT: JINX!!!

HomeFish
02-13-2005, 02:57 PM
The Expos farm system has produced many a wonder. I don't know if its still as good as it once was, but its nice to get a hand into it and pull something out.

Especially given the abysmal state of our own farm system.

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 02:59 PM
The Expos farm system has produced many a wonder. I don't know if its still as good as it once was, but its nice to get a hand into it and pull something out.Agreed. Hopefully we have Carl Crawford Part 2 on our hands.

santo=dorf
02-13-2005, 02:59 PM
Especially given the abysmal state of our own farm system.
:rolleyes:
:chickenlittle

No matter what the topic is about, Homefish always finds a way to make a trollish comment.:dtroll:

NSSoxFan
02-13-2005, 03:01 PM
The Expos farm system has produced many a wonder. I don't know if its still as good as it once was, but its nice to get a hand into it and pull something out.

Especially given the abysmal state of our own farm system.

Yea, I hope that KW starts to focus more on our farm system to get it back to the point it was in the late 90s. That, of course, hinges on how the Sox do.

DrCrawdad
02-13-2005, 03:01 PM
Jerry Owens

http://home.mindspring.com/~dcrosby101/jowens.jpg

JUribe1989
02-13-2005, 03:02 PM
I checked out a few scouting reports, and they all had him listed as A speed!

hose
02-13-2005, 03:06 PM
Owens played for the Savannah Sand Nats in 2004

Jerome
02-13-2005, 03:13 PM
:weewillie
"This trade was completely not needed. That KW. All he does is make moves for the sake of making moves. First Iguchi, now this. I swear, making trades and FA signings are KW's heroin."

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 03:14 PM
Baseball America listed Jerry Owens as the Nationals' 17th best prospect in 2004...Owens gave up baseball after his sophomore season at Hart High in Newhall, Calif., where he starred as a wide receiver catching passes from childhood friend Kyle Boller, who now starts for the NFL's Batlimore Ravens after going 19th in the 2003 NFL Draft. Owens spent two injury-plagued years on UCLA's football team before enrolling at The Master's (Calif.) College and returning to the diamond. He initially wanted to pitch, but coaches convinced him that he needed to take advantage of his speed by playing a position. Owens did just that, hitting .451 with 30 stolen bases to win the Golden State Athletic Conference's 2003 player of the year award. He was one of the premier athletes in the 2003 draft, and the Expos (now Nationals) considered taking him 20th overall before opting for Chad Cordero. Owens has a lean, wiry physique with sinewy muscles. He can get down the line from the left side of the plate in 3.85-3.95 seconds, and has been clocked as quick as 3.5 seconds on a drag bunt. He projects as an electrifying basestealer in the majors, though he's raw and will need time to develop as a hitter. He lost valuable time last summer when he ran into an outfield wall during his second pro game, missing the rest of the season after minor operations on his throwing shoulder and a pre-existing hernia. Owens has a compact swing, good bat control and a line-drive approach. His bat occasionally drags through the zone and he needs to get his hands more extended. Owens has a below-average arm, but with his range probably will stay in center field. He'll play in low Class A in 2004.
So does anyone want to take a guess at who will be the 40th man on our roster? And if you think it's going to be a middle infielder from a trade, throw some names out there.

Chisox003
02-13-2005, 03:21 PM
So does anyone want to take a guess at who will be the 40th man on our roster? And if you think it's going to be a middle infielder from a trade, throw some names out there.

I honestly dont even know who's available any more....So maybe a minor trade....

BRING BACK TONY G!!!!!

RedPinStripes
02-13-2005, 03:26 PM
The Expos farm system has produced many a wonder. I don't know if its still as good as it once was, but its nice to get a hand into it and pull something out.

Especially given the abysmal state of our own farm system.

Sox still have Brian Andersen right? A future of extream speed in the OF is a nice problem to have.

TheBull19
02-13-2005, 03:34 PM
http://www.sports-wired.com/profiles/OW/tbc37694.asp

Baseball America (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/features/04top10s/nationals.html) has Jerry Owens listed as the the fastest baserunner and the best athlete of all of the Washington Nationals' prospects.



Decent walk and bb/k rates for a first year player, too.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 03:47 PM
Baseball America listed Jerry Owens as the Nationals' 17th best prospect in 2004...
So does anyone want to take a guess at who will be the 40th man on our roster? And if you think it's going to be a middle infielder from a trade, throw some names out there.You never know with Kenny, but utility IF is definately high on his list. I'm sure he's been looking around, but there isn't really much available. I'd guess he's going to see what he's got with Valdez and Ozuna. If these guys flame out in ST, he could pull the trigger on another deal. There may be a team with two guys competing for one spot. The loser will be available cheap.

Shingotime!!
02-13-2005, 03:50 PM
The loser will be available cheap.


lol, that sounds mean.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 03:54 PM
lol, that sounds mean.That's how they got Marte. He lost out on a spot on the roster and had no options left.

California Sox
02-13-2005, 03:59 PM
Escobar was out of options and Owens at least has a chance of being a player... possible speed off the bench eventually. It's going to be interesting to see what level he plays at. Assuming Anderson spends the first half of 2005 at Birmingham, there doesn't seem to be much room at the inn for Owens. I have the Barons' OF as Rogowski in left, Anderson in center, and Sweeney in right. Hinton (acquired for CLee) will play first. They could move Hinton to DH, Rogowski back to first and have Owens play left or they can drop him down to W-S. We've got an outfield of Brice, Young, and Nanita there. Brice, like Rogo, can play 1b, so there are options, but it's funny, people act like our farm system is so barren, but we have prospects at almost every outfield position at these levels. :D:

Brian26
02-13-2005, 04:19 PM
Looks like a nice move by KW. He essentially picked Escobar up off the scrapheap, and now maybe he's getting something useful in return. Our outfield is a logjam anyway, so I doubt Escobar would have seen any playing time.

duke of dorwood
02-13-2005, 04:20 PM
The farm system is deeper than it was one year ago at this time. But we lack middle infielders and have for some time.

Cell Jerry!
02-13-2005, 04:25 PM
Let's hope this trade wont be looked upon as a complete and utter disaster like the Bradford trade.

balke
02-13-2005, 04:28 PM
is mclemore still out there? The guy is like 90 years old. if we're getting someone who's 90, I'd rather just get Barry Larkin, and that way have Uribe available to play 3rd, in case crede goes down.

santo=dorf
02-13-2005, 04:32 PM
Let's hope this trade wont be looked upon as a complete and utter disaster like the Bradford trade.
Bradford trade?!?!

:tealpolice:

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 04:32 PM
Let's hope this trade wont be looked upon as a complete and utter disaster like the Bradford trade.Yeah, getting Olivo sucked. We were able to get Freddy Garcia because of him. :rolleyes:
is mclemore still out there? The guy is like 90 years old. if we're getting someone who's 90, I'd rather just get Barry Larkin, and that way have Uribe available to play 3rd, in case crede goes down.Both Mark McLemore and Barry Larkin retired. Larkin was hired by the Washington Nationals' front office as a Special Assistant to the GM.

balke
02-13-2005, 04:36 PM
Both Mark McLemore and Barry Larkin retired. Larkin was hired by the Washington Nationals' front office as a Special Assistant to the GM.

never heard that. Hmm. Probably for the best in both cases.

Cell Jerry!
02-13-2005, 04:40 PM
Bradford trade?!?!

:tealpolice:

:o: Fixed it! Thanks, man.

soxtalker
02-13-2005, 04:47 PM
Escobar was out of options and Owens at least has a chance of being a player... possible speed off the bench eventually. It's going to be interesting to see what level he plays at. Assuming Anderson spends the first half of 2005 at Birmingham, there doesn't seem to be much room at the inn for Owens. I have the Barons' OF as Rogowski in left, Anderson in center, and Sweeney in right. Hinton (acquired for CLee) will play first. They could move Hinton to DH, Rogowski back to first and have Owens play left or they can drop him down to W-S. We've got an outfield of Brice, Young, and Nanita there. Brice, like Rogo, can play 1b, so there are options, but it's funny, people act like our farm system is so barren, but we have prospects at almost every outfield position at these levels. :D:

Nice analysis. Seems to suggest that KW will package outfielders in a trade for infielders -- at some level in the system.

Mohoney
02-13-2005, 05:01 PM
Looks like a nice move by KW. He essentially picked Escobar up off the scrapheap, and now maybe he's getting something useful in return. Our outfield is a logjam anyway, so I doubt Escobar would have seen any playing time.

Yup. Owens basically comes for the waiver wire fee when you think about it.

I would have had no problem keeping Escobar and playing him in Charlotte, but getting someone younger and not recovering from injuries is a good move.

I like this move, and I like the Bobby Jenks move.

tacosalbarojas
02-13-2005, 05:28 PM
Yup. Owens basically comes for the waiver wire fee when you think about it.

I would have had no problem keeping Escobar and playing him in Charlotte, but getting someone younger and not recovering from injuries is a good move.

I like this move, and I like the Bobby Jenks move.
Saw that note in BA too that he was Kyle Boller's receiver in high school. Hey, if it doesn't work out with us, he can always hit Olivet on his way out of town to work out at flankerback for the mighty Bear. Who out there doesn't think he could catch as many passes as Terrell?

CWSGuy406
02-13-2005, 05:55 PM
:weewillie
"This trade was completely not needed. That KW. All he does is make moves for the sake of making moves. First Iguchi, now this. I swear, making trades and FA signings are KW's heroin."

I don't know why you bring up Harris, because this move really has no bearing on Harris whatsoever. Owens will need at least two more years down in the minors, if not more. Owens may be old age-wise, but he's still a raw talent. By 2007, when Owens will probably be first looked at as far as getting a shot with the big club (not necessarily called up, but looked at), Harris will either have solidified himself as our everyday 2B-man/CFer (with Rowand in left or right), or he'll (most likely) be gone from the organization...

Kuzman
02-13-2005, 07:35 PM
News
The Nationals acquired outfielder Alex Escobar (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6628/) from the Indians on Sunday in exchange for minor league outfielder Jerry Owens. He hit .211 with one home run and 12 RBI in 46 games for the Indians in 2004. His season was ended in July because of a stress fracture in his right foot.


how bout yahoo's article on this trade. pff.
Linky: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=fanball-nationalsescobarjoin&prov=fanball&type=lgns

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 07:38 PM
News
The Nationals acquired outfielder Alex Escobar (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6628/) from the Indians on Sunday in exchange for minor league outfielder Jerry Owens. He hit .211 with one home run and 12 RBI in 46 games for the Indians in 2004. His season was ended in July because of a stress fracture in his right foot.


how bout yahoo's article on this trade. pff.
Linky: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=fanball-nationalsescobarjoin&prov=fanball&type=lgnsMust be using Rob Neyer's sources.:o:

ChiWhiteSox1337
02-13-2005, 07:42 PM
I like this move as well. Most of Kenny's smaller moves always turn out to be great(marte, uribe, olivo, shingo, loaiza) and this one didn't cost much since the sox picked up escobar late in the season for nothing. This just makes our farm system better for future trades since this guy is younger and sounds like he has more potential than escobar because escobar has bounced around a few teams already and hasn't done anything.

charlotteknights
02-13-2005, 08:34 PM
Campos may do well in Mexico, but in the states it's a different "ball game". I watched him play every game he pitched in Charlotte and despite starting off pretty good, the short porch killed him. And besides, he fairly up in age. The folks in Charlotte have already been told who to expect to come down and he wasn't even mentioned. Stewart, Sanders, Bajenero, and Adkins were listed. Hope Adkins has a great Spring training and sticks. Emancio Pacheco was mentioned too.

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 08:35 PM
Owens is happy to be with the Sox...

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20050213&content_id=942795&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jspOwens, 23, was the Nationals' second-round pick in the 2003 First-Year Player Draft. After being drafted, Owens played only two games for Class A Vermont because of a separated shoulder he suffered by crashing into the outfield wall. Plus, he had hernia surgery, which was planned long before the shoulder injury.

Owens rebounded and hit .292 with one home run and 37 RBIs for Class A Savannah last season.

The trade surprised Owens, who was expected to be with the Nationals during Spring Training.

"It's kind of unexpected, but I'm excited about it," Owens said. "It's nice to go to an organization that wants me. I'm looking forward to the future. I don't know what my future would have been with the Nationals."Here's a good article on Owens...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20050213&content_id=942819&vkey=spt2005news&fext=.jsp
Owens, who turns 24 on Feb. 16, gets equally higher marks from the White Sox general manager. Williams, along with White Sox scouts Bill Young, Doug Laumann and Gary Pellant, all had the chance to watch Owens during the Arizona Fall League, where the potential leadoff hitter finished with a .270 average, 19 runs scored and three stolen bases for the Peoria Javelinas.

"I didn't even realize that (Williams) had seen me in person," said Owens from his home in Newhall, Calif., located 25 minutes north of Los Angeles. "The news was a little unexpected, but I'm excited to be with a new organization, in a new place."

batmanZoSo
02-13-2005, 09:29 PM
This is a nice trade. Escobar had no chance of making this team and god knows we have enough "tools" outfielders in our system. It doesn't affect the current team and it could pay big down the road.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 09:32 PM
This is a nice trade. Escobar had no chance of making this team and god knows we have enough "tools" outfielders in our system. It doesn't affect the current team and it could pay big down the road.And Escobar was out of options, so they were going to have to waive him anyway. If nothing else, Owens is the kind of player that could be packaged in a mid-season trade. And for basically nothing.

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 09:38 PM
And Escobar was out of options, so they were going to have to waive him anyway. If nothing else, Owens is the kind of player that could be packaged in a mid-season trade. And for basically nothing.I'm not saying Owens is a stud or anything but I'm somewhat shocked that we were able to get him for a guy that we were going to have to waive anyways. Bowden must have known that we were going to eventually waive Escobar because of our depth at outfielder. He should have had the leverage. I guess he was willing to overpay a bit because he likes Escobar so much. Owens may not be a top prospect but he was the Nationals' 17th overall ranked prospect.

munchman33
02-13-2005, 09:41 PM
You know spring training can't come early enough when a thread about trading a guy that was probably not gonna make the roster for a Low A prospect has over 50 posts in less than twelve hours.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 09:42 PM
I'm not saying Owens is a stud or anything but I'm shocked that we were able to get him for a guy we were going to waive anyways. Bowden must've known that we would have to waive Escobar because of our outfield depth. He should have had the leverage. I guess he was willing to overpay a bit because he likes Escobar so much.But there's no guarantee they would have gotten him. The Sox could have worked another trade. Or if they did waive him, KC, Seattle and AZ were all ahead of them. He who hesitates is lost.

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 09:45 PM
But there's no guarantee they would have gotten him. The Sox could have worked another trade. Or if they did waive him, KC, Seattle and AZ were all ahead of them. He who hesitates is lost.Well, in any case, I'm happy we basically got a Podsednik clone in Owens who is probably even faster. It's nice to have a decent lefty leadoff hitter that can play CF in the minors.

BRDSR
02-13-2005, 09:45 PM
The farm system is deeper than it was one year ago at this time. But we lack middle infielders and have for some time.

This may be a figment of my imagination, but don't the Sox have a little Durham in the minors somewhere? And wasn't he a middle infielder? I don't actually think he can be on the roster, I'm just wondering if I'm crazy or not.

Jabroni
02-13-2005, 09:46 PM
This may be a figment of my imagination, but don't the Sox have a little Durham in the minors somewhere? And wasn't he a middle infielder? I don't actually think he can be on the roster, I'm just wondering if I'm crazy or not.That was Chad Durham, Ray's brother. He's not in the White Sox organization anymore. He's in the Cincinnati Reds' farm system...

http://www.sports-wired.com/profiles/DU/tbc5197.asp

Look at his stolen bases. :o:

havelj
02-13-2005, 10:55 PM
Whoops on Yahoo.com Sports (Fanball.com):
[/url]
News
"The Nationals acquired outfielder [url="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6628/"]Alex Escobar (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=fanball-nationalsescobarjoin&prov=fanball&type=lgns) from the Indians on Sunday in exchange for minor league outfielder Jerry Owens. He hit .211 with one home run and 12 RBI in 46 games for the Indians in 2004. His season was ended in July because of a stress fracture in his right foot."

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=fanball-nationalsescobarjoin&prov=fanball&type=lgns

Kuzman
02-14-2005, 10:37 AM
News
The Nationals acquired outfielder Alex Escobar (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6628/) from the Indians on Sunday in exchange for minor league outfielder Jerry Owens. He hit .211 with one home run and 12 RBI in 46 games for the Indians in 2004. His season was ended in July because of a stress fracture in his right foot.


how bout yahoo's article on this trade. pff.
Linky: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=fanball-nationalsescobarjoin&prov=fanball&type=lgns

I WIN!:bandance: :gulp:

gosox41
02-14-2005, 02:26 PM
:D:
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20050213&content_id=942782&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp


Does this mean that Borchard is going to make the team now?


Bob

Flight #24
02-14-2005, 02:29 PM
Does this mean that Borchard is going to make the team now?


Bob

Unlikely. I would imagine that they envision the backup OFs being Timo & Willie with Willie also backing up 2B. Then once Frank comes back, Carl will see some time there as well (or take over for Pods depending on how he's doing).

I thik they'd rather give Borchard more consistent ABs to continue to work on things than have him ride the bench with the occasional K.