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View Full Version : Maris's son seeks probe into Canseco drugs claims


Jabroni
02-10-2005, 05:22 PM
"Maris's Son Seeks Probe Into Canseco Drugs Claims"
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050210/sp_nm/mlb_drugs_dc_1

It looks like he wants his dad's home run record to stand since it was untarnished by steroids.

Ol' No. 2
02-10-2005, 05:31 PM
"Maris's Son Seeks Probe Into Canseco Drugs Claims"
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050210/sp_nm/mlb_drugs_dc_1

It looks like he wants his dad's home run record to stand since it was untarnished by steroids.I like this quote at the bottom. Asked about Bonds and his home run achievements, Selig praised the All-Star player, saying: "Barry has done what nobody else has done."Actually, Bud, it's looking like A LOT of other players have done what he's done.:angry:

PaleHoseGeorge
02-10-2005, 05:45 PM
Spring training camps haven't even opened and this story is already spinning out of control. Canseco is going on 60 minutes, Giambi is "apologizing" for nothing he admits to, and Selig is still trying to build up Barry Bonds? We have over 8 months left to go till a world champion is crowned!

Here are two predictions you can take to the bank.

1.) This scandal is Bud Selig's Waterloo. He won't survive as commissioner and his fellow owners will finally have to get serious about reforming their leadership model for the league, the first time since they hired Judge Landis as Puppet-in-Chief.

2.) The coming witch hunt will consume virtually every star on every team's roster for most of the last 10 years. It cuts to the very essence of the sport's sense of tradition and fair play and will easily eclipse the Black Sox scandal as baseball's worst ever. The nation's sports media loves hyperbole and they're hungry to make this mess as stark (and profitable) as possible.

RKMeibalane
02-10-2005, 09:08 PM
It's looking as though the only good thing that will come out of this mess is that Frank Thomas will be vindicated. When it becomes clear that he was one of the few players who didn't cheat, there's no way he can be kept out of the HOF.

I_Liked_Manuel
02-10-2005, 09:31 PM
in no way, shape, or form do i endorse the use of steroids....but if maris' kid wants to start arguing about home run records, i would like an asterisk put next to maris' for doing it in more games than babe ruth

Jabroni
02-10-2005, 09:52 PM
in no way, shape, or form do i endorse the use of steroids....but if maris' kid wants to start arguing about home run records, i would like an asterisk put next to maris' for doing it in more games than babe ruthI think everyone realizes this already.

doublem23
02-10-2005, 10:00 PM
in no way, shape, or form do i endorse the use of steroids....but if maris' kid wants to start arguing about home run records, i would like an asterisk put next to maris' for doing it in more games than babe ruth

That god damn cheater forced the Yankees to play those 8 extra games. :rolleyes:

Ol' No. 2
02-10-2005, 10:03 PM
in no way, shape, or form do i endorse the use of steroids....but if maris' kid wants to start arguing about home run records, i would like an asterisk put next to maris' for doing it in more games than babe ruthThis is a completely false comparison. Extra games are part of the schedule. How about the effect of West Coast road trips? Or playing night games? Should we have asterisks for those? Steroids are NOT part of baseball.

SOXPHILE
02-10-2005, 10:51 PM
Also, 1 or 2 years ago, weren't the White Sox, as a team, going to refuse to take the steroid test, to force MLB's hand, and to prove to everyone how weak/non-existant the rules were, thus, hopefully, forcing tougher rules and enforcements ? I may have my facts mixed up, but I remember hearing something to that effect on more than one occasion. This steroid scandal is absolutely vile, but the Sox may (hopefully) come out looking pretty good in the whole thing ( ?)

Ol' No. 2
02-10-2005, 11:07 PM
Also, 1 or 2 years ago, weren't the White Sox, as a team, going to refuse to take the steroid test, to force MLB's hand, and to prove to everyone how weak/non-existant the rules were, thus, hopefully, forcing tougher rules and enforcements ? I may have my facts mixed up, but I remember hearing something to that effect on more than one occasion. This steroid scandal is absolutely vile, but the Sox may (hopefully) come out looking pretty good in the whole thing ( ?)Spring training 2003. That was the first year of testing, and no results were reported, but if more than 5% failed, testing in subsequent years would automatically be triggered. Players who refused testing were counted as failed, so if the whole Sox team refused, they would push the total over 5% almost single-handedly. They union talked them out of it at the last minute.

SOXPHILE
02-10-2005, 11:13 PM
Spring training 2003. That was the first year of testing, and no results were reported, but if more than 5% failed, testing in subsequent years would automatically be triggered. Players who refused testing were counted as failed, so if the whole Sox team refused, they would push the total over 5% almost single-handedly. They union talked them out of it at the last minute.

That's it. Thanks ! :thumbsup:

I_Liked_Manuel
02-11-2005, 01:35 AM
This is a completely false comparison. Extra games are part of the schedule. How about the effect of West Coast road trips? Or playing night games? Should we have asterisks for those? Steroids are NOT part of baseball.

i dont think it's an unfair comparison. maris' kid is questioning what the real home run record is, which is what i brought up.

MUsoxfan
02-11-2005, 02:13 AM
i dont think it's an unfair comparison. maris' kid is questioning what the real home run record is, which is what i brought up.


Steroids can be controlled by an individual player. The number of games in a schedule cannot be. Maris' kid is as big a publicity hound as Canseco

T-Bone
02-11-2005, 03:42 AM
in no way, shape, or form do i endorse the use of steroids....but if maris' kid wants to start arguing about home run records, i would like an asterisk put next to maris' for doing it in more games than babe ruth

Did I miss something about black players playing in the Major Leagues during Ruth's time?

doublem23
02-11-2005, 05:40 AM
Did I miss something about black players playing in the Major Leagues during Ruth's time?

:tealpolice:

TEAL
NOT TEAL

Nick@Nite
02-11-2005, 08:01 AM
Steroids can be controlled by an individual player. The number of games in a schedule cannot be. Maris' kid is as big a publicity hound as Canseco

I don't think he's being a publicity hound for his own aggrandizement, but to draw attention to his father accomplishments. Roger Maris is one of two 2-time MVP's not in the HOF. All other 18 or so multi-MVP winners are in the HOF. I'm guessing the Maris kid views the Canseco brew-ha-ha as an opportunity to his enhance his dad's chances with HOF Veterans Committee.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-11-2005, 09:09 AM
I don't think he's being a publicity hound for his own aggrandizement, but to draw attention to his father accomplishments. Roger Maris is one of two 2-time MVP's not in the HOF. All other 18 or so multi-MVP winners are in the HOF. I'm guessing the Maris kid views the Canseco brew-ha-ha as an opportunity to his enhance his dad's chances with HOF Veterans Committee.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. There is no doubt in my mind Maris will get elevated to the HOF now that every single ballplayer who ever approached 61 home runs has now been outed as a ****ing cheat and a fraud.

Maris's record has stood longer than Ruth's. Elevating him to the HOF gives everyone associated with MLB the perfect opportunity to step up to the public confessional and pour their guts out about the evil of performance-enhancing drugs. He'll become Saint Roger by the time MLB is finished with him.

Nick@Nite
02-11-2005, 10:43 AM
This is just the tip of the iceberg. There is no doubt in my mind Maris will get elevated to the HOF now that every single ballplayer who ever approached 61 home runs has now been outed as a ****ing cheat and a fraud.

Maris's record has stood longer than Ruth's. Elevating him to the HOF gives everyone associated with MLB the perfect opportunity to step up to the public confessional and pour their guts out about the evil of performance-enhancing drugs. He'll become Saint Roger by the time MLB is finished with him.

Yup… and I wonder who’s all going to try to ride St. Roger’s coattails. Maris was one of the poster boys for those not having the supposed muster for the HOF. Other poster boys springing to mind include Dave Kingman, Jim Rice and Dick Allen (among others).

SOXintheBURGH
02-11-2005, 12:55 PM
Yup… and I wonder who’s all going to try to ride St. Roger’s coattails. Maris was one of the poster boys for those not having the supposed muster for the HOF. Other poster boys springing to mind include Dave Kingman, Jim Rice and Dick Allen (among others).

And, sadly, Melido Perez.

DrCrawdad
02-11-2005, 02:39 PM
This is just the tip of the iceberg. There is no doubt in my mind Maris will get elevated to the HOF now that every single ballplayer who ever approached 61 home runs has now been outed as a ****ing cheat and a fraud.

Maris's record has stood longer than Ruth's. Elevating him to the HOF gives everyone associated with MLB the perfect opportunity to step up to the public confessional and pour their guts out about the evil of performance-enhancing drugs. He'll become Saint Roger by the time MLB is finished with him.

I love when people say, Cubbie fans used to say this all the time in defense of Sosa, 'In this country it's innocent until proven guilty.' Yes, it's innocent until proven guilty...in the courtroom when you're accused of a crime.

http://www.jaxsuns.com/images/clammy_sosa_sm.jpg
Me, Clammy Sosa, there is no proof that I've ever used steroids.

Cubbiesuck13
02-11-2005, 09:42 PM
Do you really think Maris belongs in the HOF? I understand that his record is a special one but was he a great defender? Did he hit for average? Didn't he just have a couple good years? I am not a stat head so I don't know how everyone in the HOF compares to him but he seems like a one sided player to me. It wold be great if they exposed the steroid users who have hit more HR's than him to give him back the record but to put him in the HOF because of this controversy would be over the top.

Nick@Nite
02-11-2005, 10:07 PM
Do you really think Maris belongs in the HOF?

I didn't look closely at his career totals until now...

G......AB...R....H.....2B..3B.HR..RBI..TB.....BB.. .SO...SB..CS..OBP..SLG...AVG
1463.5101.826.1325.195.42..275.851..2429...652..73 3..21...9....345...476....260

Um, no.

SluggersAway
02-12-2005, 12:49 AM
I hope PaleHoseGeorge is right on this one...Maris deserves to be in the HOF and I hope the SH*! hits the fan in terms of the abuse of performance enhancers.

Furthermore, MLB and the fans should be on the ball since I've heard and read that there are now similiar drugs available on the market that will not be detected by the procedures currently in place.

TornLabrum
02-12-2005, 01:01 AM
I hope PaleHoseGeorge is right on this one...Maris deserves to be in the HOF and I hope the SH*! hits the fan in terms of the abuse of performance enhancers.

Furthermore, MLB and the fans should be on the ball since I've heard and read that there are now similiar drugs available on the market that will not be detected by the procedures currently in place.

Maris's career doesn't merit his going to the Hall.

BTW, the one thing I noticed about the movie "61" was that the arms of the guy who played Maris were too skinny. There was a reason why Roger had those sleeves cut off a la Ted Kluszewski's '59 Sox uni.

SluggersAway
02-12-2005, 01:07 AM
Without the clear and the cream, Maris' record still holds up after all these years. In my book that means something.

Of course it also means that MLB loses all the revenue from the hype in the the late 90s, but that is just the price of fair play.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2005, 08:45 AM
Without the clear and the cream, Maris' record still holds up after all these years. In my book that means something.

Exactly. People who say Maris isn't a HOFer are simply living in the past. He owns the single-greatest record in the history of the sport: 61 home runs. That's a hall of fame accomplishment all by itself and the fact it has stood longer than St. Bambino's record of 60 is testament to just how a great a record it truly is.

For chrissakes people, it's been 44 years! Stop sniffing Ford Frick's jock and give Maris his due!
:o:

The Balco scandal changes everything!


Of course it also means that MLB loses all the revenue from the hype in the the late 90s, but that is just the price of fair play.

I look at it quite differently. Any monetary gain MLB reaped by letting cheats like McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds trample on the record book has already been realized. There is no more to be gained. The way for MLB to keep making money is to turn hard in the other direction and start glorifying the untainted players and history it already has... starting with Maris himself.
:cool:

TornLabrum
02-12-2005, 09:32 AM
Exactly. People who say Maris isn't a HOFer are simply living in the past. He owns the single-greatest record in the history of the sport: 61 home runs. That's a hall of fame accomplishment all by itself and the fact it has stood longer than St. Bambino's record of 60 is testament to just how a great a record it truly is.

For chrissakes people, it's been 44 years! Stop sniffing Ford Frick's jock and give Maris his due!
:o:

The Balco scandal changes everything!



I look at it quite differently. Any monetary gain MLB reaped by letting cheats like McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds trample on the record book has already been realized. There is no more to be gained. The way for MLB to keep making money is to turn hard in the other direction and start glorifying the untainted players and history it already has... starting with Maris himself.
:cool:

Roger Maris won two MVPs with the Yankees, but it is dabatable that he was even the best player on the team when he was there. That honor would probably go to Mantle, who is deservedly in the HOF (at least for his career accomplishments on the field).

One record, even the home run record, does not automatically earn anyone a place in the HOF. Should McLain be in the HOF because he won 30 games once? Should Maury Wills be in the HOF because he once held the record for stolen bases?

I look at Maris's career numbers, compare them with others, and say he doesn't even come close to making the cut.

BTW, weren't you the guy who kept telling me that Pete Rose was innocent? :tongue:

hose
02-12-2005, 09:33 AM
The expansion of the American League going from 8 teams to 10 in 1961 was the reason Roger Maris hit 61 home runs.

The addition of the Kansas City A's and the Washington Senators(part II) rose the leagues hr total from 1086 in 1960 to 1534 in 1961.

MLB also went from a 154 game schedule to a 162 in 1961.

If you subtract both of the A's and Senators combine total of 209 the league hit 225 more home runs.

While Roger Maris was a complete ballplayer in every phase, his overall career totals don't merit Hall of Fame election in my opinion.

Norm Cash is another guy that put up unreal numbers in 1961 hitting a career high .361 with 41 hrs .132rbi and a .487obp.

Juan Gonzales with his 2 MVP's has no chance of getting in.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2005, 09:40 AM
The expansion of the American League going from 8 teams to 10 in 1961 was the reason Roger Maris hit 61 home runs.

The addition of the Kansas City A's and the Washington Senators(part II) rose the leagues hr total from 1086 in 1960 to 1534 in 1961.

If you subtract both of the A's and Senators combine total of 209 the league hit 225 more home runs.

While Roger Maris was a complete ballplayer in every phase, his overall career totals don't merit Hall of Fame election in my opinion.

Norm Cash is another guy that put up unreal numbers in 1961 hitting a career high .361 with 41 hrs .132rbi and a .487obp.

Juan Gonzales with his 2 MVP's has no chance of getting in.

Oh poppycock...

The record has stood for 44 freaking years!

The expansion to 10 teams is somehow more significant than the expansion to 12 teams? Or 14 teams? Give it up, already!

Norm Cash used a ****ing corked bat. Where have you been? He admitted to it and he's been dead for years...

I can't believe what lengths of ruin Ford Frick created with that unbelievably stupid asterisks! Is there anyone in the commissioner's office capable of not ****ting all over the game's accomplishments??? And the greatest commissioner kept baseball segregrated for another 25 years....

This is truly unbelievable to see being written in 2005 with BALCO fresh in everyone's minds...

hose
02-12-2005, 09:44 AM
Oh poppycock...

The record has stood for 44 freaking years!

The expansion to 10 teams is somehow more significant than the expansion to 12 teams? Or 14 teams? Give it up, already!

Norm Cash used a ****ing corked bat. Where have you been? He admitted to it and he's been dead for years...

I can't believe what lengths of ruin Ford Frick created with that unbelievably stupid asterisks! Is there anyone in the commissioner's office capable of not ****ting all over the game's accomplishments??? And the greatest commissioner kept baseball segregrated for another 25 years....

This is truly unbelievable to see being written in 2005 with BALCO fresh in everyone's minds...


Seems like the people doing the electing all these years don't agree with you George.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2005, 09:52 AM
Seems like the people doing the electing all these years don't agree with you George.

HEEELLLLOOOOOOO! Anybody home???

The BALCO scandal broke last December. The BALCO scandal changes everything!

Maris's 61 looks even more impressive precisely because of BALCO and baseball is going to take a bath because of BALCO. He will become St. Roger because the very same neanderthals who denied his greatness before will have every reason in the world to embrace his greatness once Bonds and all the other cheats have been outed.

We're not even close to getting to the bottom of this scandal. When we do Maris will be anointed St. Roger. Book it.

Wsoxmike59
02-12-2005, 10:46 AM
This is just the tip of the iceberg. There is no doubt in my mind Maris will get elevated to the HOF now that every single ballplayer who ever approached 61 home runs has now been outed as a ****ing cheat and a fraud.

Maris's record has stood longer than Ruth's. Elevating him to the HOF gives everyone associated with MLB the perfect opportunity to step up to the public confessional and pour their guts out about the evil of performance-enhancing drugs. He'll become Saint Roger by the time MLB is finished with him.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/ladewski/x10-lad1.htm

I agree PHG, Paul Ladewski of the Southtown had a column about the upcoming Canseco tell all book and I really can't tell if he is being sarcastic or truthful when he says he believes in the accomplishments of Bonds, Sosa, Clemens and Brady Anderson????

I for one believe the BALCO scandal has forever put a cloud of suspicion over the game of baseball and put a stain on the Record Books from 1996-2002. The 1998 HR Record Chase is meaningless in my eyes. McGwire and Bonds should have an * next to their HR totals during their record setting seasons.

If Bud Selig had any balls he'd suspend Bonds and Giambi for the 2005 season. I'd give a reprieve to Gary Sheffield because he was implicated in the BALCO scandal unknowingly.

If MLB were serious about cleaning up the game, they'd adopt the IOC Policy regarding Steroid use in athletics. 1st offense - 1 year suspension. 2nd offense - LIFETIME BAN!

hose
02-12-2005, 03:58 PM
HEEELLLLOOOOOOO! Anybody home???

The BALCO scandal broke last December. The BALCO scandal changes everything!

Maris's 61 looks even more impressive precisely because of BALCO and baseball is going to take a bath because of BALCO. He will become St. Roger because the very same neanderthals who denied his greatness before will have every reason in the world to embrace his greatness once Bonds and all the other cheats have been outed.

We're not even close to getting to the bottom of this scandal. When we do Maris will be anointed St. Roger. Book it.


The bottom line is that Roger Maris's career numbers don't merit HoF consideration with or without a steroid scandal. If you think Saint Roger is going to be anointed you are fooling yourself.

This weeks "Canseco scandal" will be old news by opening day and swept under the carpet by MLB.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2005, 05:17 PM
The bottom line is that Roger Maris's career numbers don't merit HoF consideration with or without a steroid scandal. If you think Saint Roger is going to be anointed you are fooling yourself. .

Well guess what? There IS a steroid scandal and virtually none of the dirt associated with the scandal has been revealed so I guess we'll just have to disagree about who is being the fool.

hose
02-12-2005, 09:56 PM
Well guess what? There IS a steroid scandal and virtually none of the dirt associated with the scandal has been revealed so I guess we'll just have to disagree about who is being the fool.


Go ahead and tell me who you "think" and "feel" is doing steroids......you got nothing besides what was leaked from the grand jury.

Bonds...."I didn't know what I was taking"

Sheffield...."I didn't know what I was taking"

Giambi....."I took steroids"

Now with Giambi as the template , any further admission of guilt coming from a player will include " I took steroids but I didn't know at the time they were really steroids"......worked for Bonds and Sheffield.

None of this crap is going to mean anything except a few books being sold.

Malgar 12
02-13-2005, 12:36 AM
It's looking as though the only good thing that will come out of this mess is that Frank Thomas will be vindicated. When it becomes clear that he was one of the few players who didn't cheat, there's no way he can be kept out of the HOF.

Why are we so confindent Thomas is clean? I've seen and have no evidence one way or the other.

SoxFan76
02-13-2005, 03:08 AM
Why are we so confindent Thomas is clean? I've seen and have no evidence one way or the other.

He hasn't gotten much bigger over the last 15 years, and his power numbers haven't dramatically increased. He just busts his ass in the off-season.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-13-2005, 08:41 AM
Go ahead and tell me who you "think" and "feel" is doing steroids......you got nothing besides what was leaked from the grand jury.

Bonds...."I didn't know what I was taking"

Sheffield...."I didn't know what I was taking"

Giambi....."I took steroids"

Now with Giambi as the template , any further admission of guilt coming from a player will include " I took steroids but I didn't know at the time they were really steroids"......worked for Bonds and Sheffield.

None of this crap is going to mean anything except a few books being sold.

I don't have to tell you one damned thing about how I "feel" or how I "think."

I only need to sit back and watch these self-centered narcissists and the cloying nobodies that hang around them start ratting each other out, either for money, for vanity, for personal glory, or for avoiding prosecution and jail time. They'll also rat each other in pursuit of greater ratings and circulation, both at the journalist's and editor's level.

I just have to sit back and watch it all happen. Sit back and watch somebody besides me look like complete fool.

You think this story already happened? I'm telling you this story has hardly begun. We'll see...we'll see...
:cool:

hose
02-13-2005, 09:19 AM
I don't have to tell you one damned thing about how I "feel" or how I "think."

I only need to sit back and watch these self-centered narcissists and the cloying nobodies that hang around them to start ratting each other out, either for money, for vanity, for personal glory, or for avoiding prosecution and jail time. They'll also rat each other in pursuit of greater ratings and circulation, both at the journalist's and editor's level.

I just have to sit back and watch it all happen. Sit back and watch somebody besides me look like complete fool.

You think this story already happened? I'm telling you this story has hardly begun. We'll see...we'll see...
:cool:

Jason Giambi admission of taking steroids was leaked ....now tell me what MLB or the NY Yankees can do about it ....NOTHING

None of this he said she said stuff from Canesco or anybody else amounts to a hill of beans.

Get off the "fool" comments , you made your point let it go.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-13-2005, 09:31 AM
Jason Giambi admission of taking steroids was leaked ....now tell me what MLB or the NY Yankees can do about it ....NOTHING

None of this he said she said stuff amounts to a hill of beans.

Get off the "fool" comments , you made your point let it go.

Holy cow. The point is still lost on you?
:?:

The grand jury has been working for over a year. They weren't investigating baseball. They were investigating Olympic doping at BALCO. They netted two of baseball's biggest stars in the process. MLB and the Yankees couldn't do anything about it because the grand jury couldn't do anything about it either. This **** comes out!

Corroborating evidence turns "he said she said" into the sort of hard facts that make liars tell the truth... not just about their own lies but the lies other people are perpetrating, too, the better to get themselves off the hook. You think Giambi and Bonds came forward to tell the truth to the grand jury for altruistic reasons? They were trapped, and the trap wasn't even meant to catch them!

Look, no hard feelings. I'll agree that what we know so far is only upsetting for what we suspect might be left unproven to date. But neither of us can deny the most basic instinct of human nature: self-preservation. That's why I say this story is just starting and the real fallout hasn't even begun.

idseer
02-13-2005, 09:34 AM
just my opinion of course, but put me on the side that doesn't believe maris is a hof'er.

putting aside the fact the hall of fame doesn't mean much to me i still try to view it with some sort of recognized stability.
player elections were never meant for single season accomplishments. they were meant for lifetime achievements in the game. maris had a freaky spike in his career and THAT doesn't merit election no matter HOW long his record stood.

and i don't know why you all are "suddenly" getting upset about what happened to the sanctity of home runs. many knew there was something wrong the very year mark AND sammy shattered the record. the game we knew and grew up loving was destroyed right then before all our eyes. and it wasn't solely the players who were responsible for it either. the owners and players union were more responsible by letting it happen. they KNEW it was happening. all they were concerned about was their pockets. the shortsighted selfish bastards couldn't have cared less about the integrity of the game.
you can jump all over the players if you want to, but they are only symptoms of what's wrong. THERE IS NO ONE IN CHARGE OF TAKING CARE OF THE GAME!

*baseball*
born 1859
died 1998
RIP

hose
02-13-2005, 09:54 AM
Corroborating evidence turns "he said she said" into the sort of hard facts that make liars tell the truth... not just about their own lies but the lies other people are perpetrating, too, the better to get themselves off the hook. You think Giambi and Bonds came forward to tell the truth to the grand jury for altruistic reasons? They were trapped, and the trap wasn't even meant to catch them!

Look, no hard feelings. I'll agree that what we know so far is only upsetting for what we suspect might be left unproven to date. But neither of us can deny the most basic instinct of human nature: self-preservation. That's why I say this story is just starting and the real fallout hasn't even begun.

The fallout? MLB can't even discipline Giambi, Bonds, or Sheffield , they can't use any of the sworn testimony from the Balco case.

Now tell me what legally will come out of all this finger pointing by sources such as Canesco ?

The Giants aren't going to release Bonds , heck Giant fans would not put up with it.

If Sosa has a great season in Baltimore do you think the fans will care about being mentioned by Canseco? not a chance.

Ken Caminnitti admitted to using steroids without a Balco trial....did MLB take away his MVP award?..... NOPE

The players will clean up this mess on their own because with the recent media exposure the rewards don't outweigh the risks anymore. In the past a young player would be willing to reap the benefits of steroid use because the health problems were not until 20 years down the road. Replace the invincibility of youth with the fact that his career in the present could be jeopardized through the media and MLB testing if caught changes everything.

The steroid scandal will mirror the cocaine scandal of the 70's and 80's. When was the last time you heard about a ML player getting canned for cocaine?

idseer
02-13-2005, 10:10 AM
When was the last time you heard about a ML player getting canned for cocaine?

when was the last time cocaine toppled the greatest record in baseball?
there WILL be more repercussions from this than from any cocaine scandal.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-13-2005, 10:13 AM
1.) The law allows baseball to defend its interests from defamation, not unlike figure skating from Tonya Harding. Giambi and Bonds don't have a legal leg to force MLB to do anything besides look out for MLB's interest.

2.) Fans in Baltimore can be counted on to be as slavish to Sosa as were the dolts on the North Side. It's of no consequence. The rest of us and the law will take care of him just fine. If O's fans want to look like fools, the line forms at Clark & Addison.

3.) Caminiti is dead. We can hope dopers like him seek penance for their transgressions. It makes the job of outting the other liars and cheats so much easier when they do.

4.) I have no doubt the clean players are very happy about the events of the last 2 months. In fact I'm sure most of them feel quite relieved. It was their own livelihood that was threatened by the cheating dopers. I suspect more than a few of them will come forward to out those cheats and liars that still try to beat the system. We can thank Jose Canseco for giving them courage to do so.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 12:07 PM
player elections were never meant for single season accomplishments. they were meant for lifetime achievements in the game.Says who?

idseer
02-13-2005, 12:20 PM
Says who?

technically you may have me there no.2. i don't know that it actually is written anywhere that it's only for lifetime achievments.
but it IS common sense. other wise every pitcher who ever threw a perfect game would be in the hall. as someone earlier pointed out, maclain would be in the hall for 30 wins.
would you actually argue that one great year is all you should need?

where do you draw the line?

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 12:38 PM
technically you may have me there no.2. i don't know that it actually is written anywhere that it's only for lifetime achievments.
but it IS common sense. other wise every pitcher who ever threw a perfect game would be in the hall. as someone earlier pointed out, maclain would be in the hall for 30 wins.
would you actually argue that one great year is all you should need?

where do you draw the line?I would say that certain accomplishments should be sufficient for admission to the HOF all by themselves. It's a Hall of FAME, not a hall of lifetime achievement. Defining which accomplishments qualify is a tricky business. How many players have held the single-season home run record? When you break a record that has stood for 34 years, that's a pretty big accomplishment.

I guess maybe the standard should be those accomplishments that are sufficiently rare should qualify a player for HOF. Throwing a perfect game? Maybe. It's not like there are hundreds of them. It's a judgement call, but it's a judgement call now as to who gets in.

idseer
02-13-2005, 02:28 PM
I would say that certain accomplishments should be sufficient for admission to the HOF all by themselves. It's a Hall of FAME, not a hall of lifetime achievement. Defining which accomplishments qualify is a tricky business. How many players have held the single-season home run record? When you break a record that has stood for 34 years, that's a pretty big accomplishment.

I guess maybe the standard should be those accomplishments that are sufficiently rare should qualify a player for HOF. Throwing a perfect game? Maybe. It's not like there are hundreds of them. It's a judgement call, but it's a judgement call now as to who gets in.

special accomplishments are already acknowledged in the hall unless i'm mistaken. in a way maris IS already in the hall. enshinement, tho, is a different ballgame.

yes it's called a hall of FAME. but i guarentee you it's more a hall of accomplishment. fame has very little to do with it. there are players in that you've never heard of. and there are famous players that will never be in.
you're right that it's a judgment call as to who gets in. but being realistic, you don't get in unless you have proven yourself an elite player ... and not just in one year. roy face had one of the most incredible years of any pitcher ever when he went 18 - 1 in 1959. should he be considered?
in the last 70 years only one pitcher has won 30 games. denny mclain. isn't that quite an accomplishment?

face it. single accomplishments never were enough to be considered hall-worthy. maris, aside from one great year was at BEST and average player and doesn't belong imo.