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soxfan123
02-08-2005, 09:38 PM
At age 36, with 436 HRs, Frank Thomas has stated that he truly wants to get to the monumental 500 HR club....

If he does in fact do it, will it be with the Sox?

My guess is no considering KW's history with big Frank and his recent spiral from greatness. Any thoughts?

Be easy, this is my second post...I'm just figuring this out...

MUsoxfan
02-08-2005, 09:39 PM
My guess is that he will finish he career with the Sox, but shy of 500. I really want him to get 500, but his injuries and age may prevent him from doing so

RKMeibalane
02-08-2005, 09:41 PM
At age 36, with 436 HRs, Frank Thomas has stated that he truly wants to get to the monumental 500 HR club....

If he does in fact do it, will it be with the Sox?

My guess is no considering KW's history with big Frank and his recent spiral from greatness. Any thoughts?

Be easy, this is my second post...I'm just figuring this out...

That's a good question. Right now, I think there's a 50/50 chance that he does it wearing a Sox uniform. There's no doubt in my mind that he will reach the 500-mark, but there is some question as to how long the Sox will keep him around. They don't seem interested in picking up his option for 2006, and I don't see that changing, even if he has a big season once he returns from the ankle injury. OTOH, Reinsdorf is a huge Frank fan, and after seeing how badly the relationship between the Sox and Magglio Ordonez ended, I think he'll make an effort to bring Frank back so that he can end his career on the South Side.

NSSoxFan
02-08-2005, 09:41 PM
I believe Big Frank has 2 to 3 more productive years in him. I would be beside myself if he finished his career anywhere other than Chicago. Also, I do think he will get to 500, even if he doesn't, he is a first ballot HOF.

spawn
02-08-2005, 09:45 PM
I think he'll retire with the White Sox, and he will reach the 500 HR plateau. That could also be wishful thinking on my part!

oldcomiskey
02-08-2005, 09:49 PM
I believe Big Frank has 2 to 3 more productive years in him. I would be beside myself if he finished his career anywhere other than Chicago. Also, I do think he will get to 500, even if he doesn't, he is a first ballot HOF.
if Mattingly is not in--then Thomas shouldnt be

Jabroni
02-08-2005, 09:56 PM
Frank only needs 64 homers. He can do that in 2 seasons. If Frank can get back to 100%, I don't see why the Sox wouldn't pick up his option for 2006. Frank has a $10 million player option for 2006 and the Sox have a $12 million team option on him for 2006. I think either Frank would pick up his own option of the Sox would pick up the team option instead of paying the $3.5 million buyout.

idseer
02-08-2005, 10:00 PM
dyk that with 6 more home runs he will have the unique distinction of hitting exactly TWICE as many home runs as the next closest white sox?

NSSoxFan
02-08-2005, 10:01 PM
if Mattingly is not in--then Thomas shouldnt be

I don't recall Mattingly having 8 straight seasons of 30 HR 100 RBI 100 Runs.

MRKARNO
02-08-2005, 10:07 PM
If Kenny Williams is smart, he'll realize that Frank Thomas isnt going to be looking for much of an increase over his 2005 or 2006 salary to stay with the team until he retires, possibly even taking a pay cut. He'd also realize that Thomas is the best hitter in franchise history who still hits like it more than once in a while. If Frank Thomas hits his 500th homer in another team's uniform, it will be something I will never let Kenny Williams forget.

TheTwinsMustDie
02-08-2005, 10:07 PM
if Mattingly is not in--then Thomas shouldnt be

Are you nuts?.........Mattingly has the following stats in 14 years:
Hits 2153
HR 222
RBI 1099
Runs 1007
Avg. .307

Yes, they are good, but not HOF caliber.......Perhaps via the Veteran's Committee. Please stop gulping the Mattingly Kool-Aid.


Frank's numbers are as follows through 15 years:

Hits 2113
HR 436
RBI 1439
Runs 1308
Avg. .308

idseer
02-08-2005, 10:07 PM
I don't recall Mattingly having 8 straight seasons of 30 HR 100 RBI 100 Runs.

mattingly doesn't hold a candle to thomas.
and yet, i never read where 8 very good seasons meant an automatic entry either.

NSSoxFan
02-08-2005, 10:10 PM
mattingly doesn't hold a candle to thomas.
and yet, i never read where 8 very good seasons meant an automatic entry either.

True, but which players of the mid to late 90's are going into the hall? On top of that, players like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, are all considered "locks" for the HOF, my question is why? Why let these steroid freaks be in Cooperstown and not Big Frank?

MUsoxfan
02-08-2005, 10:12 PM
True, but which players of the mid to late 90's are going into the hall? On top of that, players like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, are all considered "locks" for the HOF, my question is why? Why let these steroid freaks be in Cooperstown and not Big Frank?

#1 Steroids were legal until recently #2 500hr's seems to be the magic mark for power hitters to gain their entry into the HOF

Jabroni
02-08-2005, 10:12 PM
Here's an article from 2002 when Frank signed his new deal with the Sox...

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/thestate/sports/baseball/4685046.htmIn a statement, Sox Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf said the Sox "never lost sight of what Frank Thomas has meant to this organization over the past 13 seasons" and called him "the greatest offensive player in the history of this franchise." Tellem said five teams were interested in Thomas in the free-agent market, including one National League team, though no one apparently was interested enough to give him the contract he wanted.

The motivating factor in accepting the Sox's offer, Tellem said, was Thomas' love for the organization.

"I think it would mean a lot to him if he goes into the Hall of Fame playing for one team," Tellem said. "That's a goal of his."Even if Kenny doesn't want to keep Frank past 2006, surprisingly it will probably be Reinsdorf who makes the call to dish out the money. I think both Frank and JR want him to retire as a White Sox and go to the Hall as a White Sox as well.

NSSoxFan
02-08-2005, 10:17 PM
#1 Steroids were legal until recently #2 500hr's seems to be the magic mark for power hitters to gain their entry into the HOF

The fact that they weren't illegal is not an excuse. Tell that to the other members of the 500 club who didn't need to shoot up to hit home runs.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-08-2005, 10:19 PM
#1 Steroids were legal until recently #2 500hr's seems to be the magic mark for power hitters to gain their entry into the HOF

That was the conventional wisdom right up until the BALCO scandal. The fallout from this mess is still coming down and lots of previous "locks" for this or that "baseball honor" are no longer assured of jack****.

We're on the verge of a major witchhunt for steroid users in baseball. Achieving the old 500 home run milestone won't save baseball's new class of criminals from becoming outcasts.

I think Frank's achievements are going to be appreciated in a whole new light once all the game's cheats are outed.

MUsoxfan
02-08-2005, 10:19 PM
The fact that they weren't illegal is not an excuse. Tell that to the other members of the 500 club who didn't need to shoot up to hit home runs.

I'm with you. I'm against them as much as anyone else but the HOF committee looks at things differently and past the "rumors"

NSSoxFan
02-08-2005, 10:21 PM
I think Frank's achievements are going to be appreciated in a whole new light once all the game's cheats are outed.

Right on!

munchman33
02-08-2005, 10:25 PM
#1 Steroids were legal until recently

That is absolutely not true. Steroids have been illegal for a long time. You go to jail for using them. They just weren't against baseballs rules. But baseball does have rules allow them to punish those convicted of breaking federal laws, so in a way they still were illegal even by baseball's standards.

Jabroni
02-08-2005, 10:28 PM
The fact that they weren't illegal is not an excuse. Tell that to the other members of the 500 club who didn't need to shoot up to hit home runs.http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_career.shtml

1. Hank Aaron 755
2. Babe Ruth 714
3. Barry Bonds 703
4. Willie Mays 660
5. Frank Robinson 586
6. Mark McGwire 583
7. Sammy Sosa 574
8. Harmon Killebrew 573
9. Reggie Jackson 563
10. Rafael Palmeiro 551
11. Mike Schmidt 548
12. Mickey Mantle 536
13. Jimmie Foxx 534
14. Willie McCovey 521
___Ted Williams 521
16. Ernie Banks 512
___Eddie Mathews 512
18. Mel Ott 511
19. Eddie Murray 504
20. Ken Griffey Jr. 501

*The players in bold most likely hit 500+ without the use of steroids.
*The players in red most likely hit 500+ with the use of steroids.

NSSoxFan
02-08-2005, 10:29 PM
20. Ken Griffey Jr. 501

*The players in bold most likely hit 500+ without the use of steroids.
*The players in red most likely hit 500+ with the use of steroids.

I don't think Griffey ever took steroids, just my opinion.

Jabroni
02-08-2005, 10:32 PM
I don't think Griffey ever took steroids, just my opinion.Yeah, you're probably right. I edited my last post. He has played 16 seasons, albeit many injury-plagued ones.

Nick@Nite
02-08-2005, 10:40 PM
Yeah, you're probably right. I edited my last post. He has played 16 seasons, albeit many injury-plagued ones.

... which could be construed from steroid useage.

NSSoxFan
02-08-2005, 10:42 PM
... which could be construed from steroid useage.

Griffey never really blew up like Sosa, Bonds, and McGwire.

Nick@Nite
02-08-2005, 10:47 PM
Griffey never really blew up like Sosa, Bonds, and McGwire.

Compared to those guys... maybe not. But Junior seemed to land on the DL with a severely pulled hammy every other month or so.

NSSoxFan
02-08-2005, 10:48 PM
Compared to those guys... maybe not. But Junior seemed to land on the DL with a severely pulled hammy every other month or so.

True, but the hamstring is a very wierd injury that can linger.

Jabroni
02-08-2005, 10:48 PM
True, Griffey never got any bigger from his days with Seattle to now with the Reds.

Foulke29
02-08-2005, 10:57 PM
if Mattingly is not in--then Thomas shouldnt be

:kukoo:

I didn't realize they let the commited use computers at the institutions now!

Nick@Nite
02-08-2005, 11:02 PM
True, but the hamstring is a very wierd injury that can linger.

Only in the post 80's era.

I remember hearing an interview with Whitey Herzog back in the mid 80s where he complained about players hitting the weights too much to where they seemed to pull up lame from pulled hammy's more so than usual. Of course Whitey didn't say 'roids, but we're all fooling ourselves to NOT think players who don't have freaky physiques aren't possibly on the juice.

And by the way, Junior is bigger than you'd think... 6'3" 205lbs.

Norberto7
02-08-2005, 11:06 PM
I think that Frank will stick around with the Sox long enough to pound out his five-hundreth. I just hope it doesn't degenerate into a sad, sad Fred McGriff-type milestone quest.

Jabroni
02-08-2005, 11:06 PM
Only in the post 80's era.

I remember hearing an interview with Whitey Herzog back in the mid 80s where he complained about players hitting the weights too much to where they seemed to pull up lame from pulled hammy's more so than usual. Of course Whitey didn't say 'roids, but we're all fooling ourselves to NOT think players who don't have freaky physiques aren't possibly on the juice.

And by the way, Junior is bigger than you'd think... 6'3" 205lbs.So you think Griffey is alot heavier than 205? Perhaps, but he hasn't gained much weight for as long as he's been in the MLB. He doesn't look any different to me from his years on the Mariners to now with the Reds. Even Rowand is 6'0", 205 pounds.

jabrch
02-09-2005, 01:17 AM
Yeah, you're probably right. I edited my last post. He has played 16 seasons, albeit many injury-plagued ones.


I'd write his name like this.....
Ken Griffey Jr

There is enough reason for me to be suspicious.

NSSoxFan
02-09-2005, 01:29 AM
I'd write his name like this.....
Ken Griffey Jr

There is enough reason for me to be suspicious.

Funny, those are the Reds colors.

*X-Files theme music*

shoota
02-09-2005, 01:56 AM
At age 36, with 436 HRs, Frank Thomas has stated that he truly wants to get to the monumental 500 HR club....

If he does in fact do it, will it be with the Sox?

This is another reason why I was upset Frank got injured last season. Had he been healthy the entire season, the Sox might have won the division, but if not, he still would have increased his home run total.

I'm also looking forward to him hitting 100 career home runs in the first inning.

StockdaleForVeep
02-09-2005, 02:54 AM
It will be with the sox or no one else

Who else would pick up this elder who the media has branded a clubhouse and front office tumor. I mean, who would take frank when u can get andres gallaraga for cheaper.

owensmouth
02-09-2005, 03:59 AM
I suspect it'll come down to what KW wants, and KW wants to get rid of Frank. Stop and think of Williams' comments over the past few years. Whenever it came to Frank Thomas, KW was gritting his teeth.

Frank will be deemed "too expensive" and "over the hill" and be released. It will be comsidered by KW and the anti-White Sox media as an improvement to the clubhouse.

It will be considered a personal vendetta and a stab in the back by Sox fans.

nccwsfan
02-09-2005, 06:27 AM
3. Barry Bonds 703

6. Mark McGwire 583
7. Sammy Sosa 574

10. Rafael Palmeiro 551

20. Ken Griffey Jr. 501



IMO
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa- absolutely took steriods. No doubt in my mind.

Griffey- no way did he take steriods.

Palmeiro- I do not believe he took steriods. I would be shocked if the revelations Canseco puts forth are true.

Church Turtle
02-09-2005, 07:19 AM
Are you nuts?.........Mattingly has the following stats in 14 years:
Hits 2153
HR 222
RBI 1099
Runs 1007
Avg. .307

Yes, they are good, but not HOF caliber.......Perhaps via the Veteran's Committee. Please stop gulping the Mattingly Kool-Aid.


Frank's numbers are as follows through 15 years:

Hits 2113
HR 436
RBI 1439
Runs 1308
Avg. .308

It's the mustache, man.

Nick@Nite
02-09-2005, 07:32 AM
Griffey- no way did he take steriods.

The Reds publicity manager and Bud Selig thank you. :rolleyes:

Nick@Nite
02-09-2005, 10:32 AM
Palmeiro- I do not believe he took steriods.

Have you looked at Raffy's career HR totals?

1986 - 3
1987 - 14
1988 - 8
1989 - 8
1990 - 14
1991 - 26 (boing!)
1992 - 22 (608 AB's & Canseco joined TX. Maybe JC's influence didn't take full effect until the off-season?)
1993 - 37
1994 - 23 (436 AB's)
1995 - 39
1996 - 39
1997 - 38
1998 - 43
1999 - 47
2000 - 39
2001 - 47
2002 - 43
2003 - 38
2004 - 23 (MLB wide shrinkage... can we all say BALCO?)

I bet the Cubs wish he'd cheated with 'roids instead of with other players wives (allegedly). :cool:

BigFrankRetard
02-09-2005, 10:34 AM
Compared to those guys... maybe not. But Junior seemed to land on the DL with a severely pulled hammy every other month or so.

That's because Griffey never stretched or conditioned himself. I guess that his coaches in Seattle figured, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Interestingly, Randy Moss also has a history of not taking care of himself and missed a number of games this season with a leg injury.

Frankly (no pun intended), a career .429 OBP with 400+ HRs is a lot more impressive than Sammy The Cheater's steroid-induced 574 HRs and laughable .348 OBP.

AZChiSoxFan
02-09-2005, 10:36 AM
if Mattingly is not in--then Thomas shouldnt be

:tealpolice:

I had to put this in, because there is no way on earth you are serious.

Flight #24
02-09-2005, 10:56 AM
I believe OlNo2 said it best here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=563205&postcount=8)

AZChiSoxFan
02-09-2005, 11:01 AM
and yet, i never read where 8 very good seasons meant an automatic entry either.

As stated in another thread by Ol' No. 2, Frank Thomas is the only player in the history of baseball to post 8 straight season of at least 100 runs, 100 RBI and 24 homers. He also hit at least .300 in the first 7 of those 8 seasons. To answer your question, it's significant because it's never been accomplished by any other player. Furthermore, baseball-reference.com, on their HOF monitor listing, ranks the Big Hurt as the 49th best hitter of all time. To find a HOF eligible player on that list who is not in the Hall, you have to go down to # 80 (Jim Rice). By my count, there are 70 players in the Hall, ranked lower than #49 on that list.
To quote Ol' No. 2 again, it's absurd that this is even a question.

Paulwny
02-09-2005, 11:17 AM
Periodically I've heard discussions on the radio, etc where some writers are questioning if 500 hr's is still the benchmark for induction into the hof for this era of ball players.

It would be a travesty if Frank misses out on the hof because of some voters lumping him in with the cheats.

Ol' No. 2
02-09-2005, 11:23 AM
Periodically I've heard discussions on the radio, etc where some writers are questioning if 500 hr's is still the benchmark for induction into the hof for this era of ball players.

It would be a travesty if Frank misses out on the hof because of some voters lumping him in with the cheats.Depends on whether you're talking about 500 HR or 500* HR. As many have pointed out here, I think in the aftermath of the steroid mess there will be a renewed appreciation for what Thomas has accomplished without any chemical assistance. What goes around comes around. It will be really sweet to see Frank finally get the respect he's due.

BigDon77
02-09-2005, 11:26 AM
Thomas will get 500 homers and I do think it will be in the Sox uniform. JR and KW need to have him retire in a sox uniform. I'm sure they don't want another situation like the one with Carlton Fisk. He should have been in the hall wearing a sox hat, but they didn't end it the right way. Just my 2 cents.

ja1022
02-09-2005, 11:29 AM
if Mattingly is not in--then Thomas shouldnt be

Franks eight year run:
20+ HR (3 years @ 40+, 3 years @ 30+)
100+ Walks
100+ RBI
100+ Runs
.300+ Avg 7 years
.400+ OBP or better 7 years
Back to back MVP with three other top 3 finishes.

Mattingly had a strong six year run.
20+ HR 5 years (3 years @ 30+)
100 Walks 0 years
100+ RBI 5 years
100+ Runs 2 years
.300+ Avg. 6 years
.400+ OBP 0 years
1 MVP, 1 other top 3 finish

I believe Frank will reach 500 as a White Sox. If Frank gets and stays healthy, JR and KW would be fools to have him hit 450 home runs as a White Sox, and then see him leave and hit number 500 in a different uniform.

I hope Frank can get healthy and continue to contribute. I'd hate to see him hang on to long, in an effort only to reach 500.

chaz171
02-09-2005, 11:36 AM
if Mattingly is not in--then Thomas shouldnt be

Mattingly Thomas
HR 222 438
RBI 1099 1439
hits 2153 2113
BB/K 588/444 1450/1134
TB 3301 3887
SLG% .471 .567
2B 442 444
100+rbi's 5x 10x
30+hr's 3x 8x
40+hr's 0x 5x

AB's 7003 6851

JKryl
02-09-2005, 11:39 AM
mattingly doesn't hold a candle to thomas.
and yet, i never read where 8 very good seasons meant an automatic entry either.

During his career, Mattingly played as DH 76times.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml

Position Total 1B 1634 14148 1104 64 1500 .996 .992 9.33 8.41
DH 76 Games not counted in Overall Total below
OF 76 121 6 3 2 .977 .981 1.67 2.16 33 2 47
3B 3 1 11 1 2 .923 .945 4.00 2.37
2B 1 0 0 0 0 0.00 4.80

Frank has played DH almost as many times as he has played 1B:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml

Position Total 1B* 971 7910 497 80 776 .991 .993 8.66 8.24 68 550.3
DH 932 Games not counted in Overall Total below

In addition, Mattingly played hurt year after year. Now, I hate the Yankees as much as any Sox fan, but I give credit where it's due, and as far as I'm concerned, and I acknowledge that I'm in the minority as WSI, Frank doesn't deserve to go to the HOF if he can't hack 1B.

Paulwny
02-09-2005, 11:40 AM
Depends on whether you're talking about 500 HR or 500* HR. As many have pointed out here, I think in the aftermath of the steroid mess there will be a renewed appreciation for what Thomas has accomplished without any chemical assistance. What goes around comes around. It will be really sweet to see Frank finally get the respect he's due.

I'm worried, that when Frank's name comes up for induction some writers/voters may get into a "did he/ didn't he ?" discussion, which may cause a shortage of votes for the hof.

Ol' No. 2
02-09-2005, 11:47 AM
I'm worried, that when Frank's name comes up for induction some writers/voters may get into a "did he/ didn't he ?" discussion, which may cause a shortage of votes for the hof.I expect by that time the issue will be largely settled. Thomas shows none of the typical signs of steroid use. There may be a few idiots that try to raise the issue, but I doubt anyone will pay them any attention.

ja1022
02-09-2005, 11:54 AM
I'm worried, that when Frank's name comes up for induction some writers/voters may get into a "did he/ didn't he ?" discussion, which may cause a shortage of votes for the hof.

I suspect if Frank juiced in his prime he'd have hit 80.

Foulke29
02-09-2005, 12:03 PM
Palmeiro- I do not believe he took steriods. I would be shocked if the revelations Canseco puts forth are true.

Steroids?!! Are you kidding me? It's the Viagra that gave him the big stick!

PaleHoseGeorge
02-09-2005, 12:11 PM
I suspect if Frank juiced in his prime he'd have hit 80.

The most Bonds ever hit before his unexpected late-career "surge" was 46. Frank has never hit more than 43. Of course Barry thought it was only flaxseed oil they were putting on his hamburgers...
:roflmao:

I doubt Frank with the clear would have hit 80. 70 sounds about right.
:cool:

idseer
02-09-2005, 07:27 PM
As stated in another thread by Ol' No. 2, Frank Thomas is the only player in the history of baseball to post 8 straight season of at least 100 runs, 100 RBI and 24 homers. He also hit at least .300 in the first 7 of those 8 seasons. To answer your question, it's significant because it's never been accomplished by any other player. Furthermore, baseball-reference.com, on their HOF monitor listing, ranks the Big Hurt as the 49th best hitter of all time. To find a HOF eligible player on that list who is not in the Hall, you have to go down to # 80 (Jim Rice). By my count, there are 70 players in the Hall, ranked lower than #49 on that list.
To quote Ol' No. 2 again, it's absurd that this is even a question.

my point was 8 straight very good years does not automatically make you a hof'er.
frank has been a great hitter. no one argues that. but that's not what the hof is necessarily about. duration is also important, and his lifetime stats are not that outstanding.

as far as th hof monitor at baseball-ref. ... do you think robby alomar is a better hitter than frank? cause he's ranked 38. do you think alomar is the 38th best hitter of all time??? do you think pudge rodriguez is a better hitter than frank? cause he's ranked 48.
that whole thing is based on one guy who has his own system. you talk like it's the holy grail.

there is nothing absurd about the question at all. thomas going in on the first ballot is a big question. going in at all is a small question (there are some writers who won't vote him in).

i think he's deserving and will/should go in. i also think it would help his cause if he can stick around awhile and add to those lifetime stats.

RKMeibalane
02-09-2005, 07:40 PM
if Mattingly is not in--then Thomas shouldnt be

Oh, please. Frank Thomas has accomplished a lot more than Don Mattingly did. And this is coming from someone who grew up idolizing Mattingly. GMAB. Mattingly has the edge over Thomas on defense (he won nine Gold Gloves), but Frank Thomas is one of the best right-handed hitters in the history of baseball. Mattingly is one of several good left-handed hitters to have played the sport, and he by no means had a significant impact on the way the game has been played. By combining power with patience at the plate, Frank Thomas change the way a lot of people look at home run hitters and run producers.

RKMeibalane
02-09-2005, 07:45 PM
The most Bonds ever hit before his unexpected late-career "surge" was 46. Frank has never hit more than 43. Of course Barry thought it was only flaxseed oil they were putting on his hamburgers...
:roflmao:

I doubt Frank with the clear would have hit 80. 70 sounds about right.
:cool:

Just out of curisoity, how many home runs do you think Frank would have hit two seasons had Manuel not insisted on keeping him at DH?

:jerry

"I can't imagine any reason short of an emergency for playing Frank at first base."

idseer
02-09-2005, 07:46 PM
During his career, Mattingly played as DH 76times.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml

Position Total 1B 1634 14148 1104 64 1500 .996 .992 9.33 8.41
DH 76 Games not counted in Overall Total below
OF 76 121 6 3 2 .977 .981 1.67 2.16 33 2 47
3B 3 1 11 1 2 .923 .945 4.00 2.37
2B 1 0 0 0 0 0.00 4.80

Frank has played DH almost as many times as he has played 1B:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml

Position Total 1B* 971 7910 497 80 776 .991 .993 8.66 8.24 68 550.3
DH 932 Games not counted in Overall Total below

In addition, Mattingly played hurt year after year. Now, I hate the Yankees as much as any Sox fan, but I give credit where it's due, and as far as I'm concerned, and I acknowledge that I'm in the minority as WSI, Frank doesn't deserve to go to the HOF if he can't hack 1B.

i totally disagree with everything you said.

RKMeibalane
02-09-2005, 07:50 PM
During his career, Mattingly played as DH 76times.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml

Position Total 1B 1634 14148 1104 64 1500 .996 .992 9.33 8.41
DH 76 Games not counted in Overall Total below
OF 76 121 6 3 2 .977 .981 1.67 2.16 33 2 47
3B 3 1 11 1 2 .923 .945 4.00 2.37
2B 1 0 0 0 0 0.00 4.80

Frank has played DH almost as many times as he has played 1B:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml

Position Total 1B* 971 7910 497 80 776 .991 .993 8.66 8.24 68 550.3
DH 932 Games not counted in Overall Total below

In addition, Mattingly played hurt year after year. Now, I hate the Yankees as much as any Sox fan, but I give credit where it's due, and as far as I'm concerned, and I acknowledge that I'm in the minority as WSI, Frank doesn't deserve to go to the HOF if he can't hack 1B.

This post is BULL****! Obviously, someone left the Yankee Kool Aid where the younger kids could get to it, because the Mattingly ass-kissing has gotten worse over the past few weeks. It needs to stop. Mattingly was a great player, but he's nothing compared to Frank Thomas. Nothing.

nccwsfan
02-09-2005, 08:06 PM
The Reds publicity manager and Bud Selig thank you. :rolleyes:




Come on now, tell me what leads you to believe that Griffey took steroids? Because he's injury prone? Noticeable weight gain? Tell me which injury/injuries lead you to believe that it's steroid use.... After all, the thought of Griffey putting up great offensive numbers in the Kingdome bandbox at the prime of his career while he was injury free is hard to fathom. No explanation to his success whatsoever.

Sorry, but someone who had good offensive numbers didn't necessarily cheat to do it. If you don't like him cool, but I believe he's on the up and up.

idseer
02-09-2005, 08:13 PM
Come on now, tell me what leads you to believe that Griffey took steroids? Because he's injury prone? Noticeable weight gain? Tell me which injury/injuries lead you to believe that it's steroid use.... After all, the thought of Griffey putting up great offensive numbers in the Kingdome bandbox at the prime of his career while he was injury free is hard to fathom. No explanation to his success whatsoever.

Sorry, but someone who had good offensive numbers didn't necessarily cheat to do it. If you don't like him cool, but I believe he's on the up and up.

from what i understand he probably WOULDN't have had the injuries he's had if he'd been on steroids. or at least would have recovered faster.
i doubt kg was using.

nccwsfan
02-09-2005, 08:14 PM
Have you looked at Raffy's career HR totals?

1986 - 3
1987 - 14
1988 - 8
1989 - 8
1990 - 14
1991 - 26 (boing!)
1992 - 22 (608 AB's & Canseco joined TX. Maybe JC's influence didn't take full effect until the off-season?)
1993 - 37
1994 - 23 (436 AB's)
1995 - 39
1996 - 39
1997 - 38
1998 - 43
1999 - 47
2000 - 39
2001 - 47
2002 - 43
2003 - 38
2004 - 23 (MLB wide shrinkage... can we all say BALCO?)

I bet the Cubs wish he'd cheated with 'roids instead of with other players wives (allegedly). :cool:

Good point, but where did he play during his career? After 1992, he played in Camden Yards and the Ballpark in Arlington. I would categorize those ballparks as hitters parks.....I'm still not convinced on Palmeiro and I'm absolutely not convinced about Griffey, Jr- sorry.

Ol' No. 2
02-09-2005, 08:54 PM
my point was 8 straight very good years does not automatically make you a hof'er.
frank has been a great hitter. no one argues that. but that's not what the hof is necessarily about. duration is also important, and his lifetime stats are not that outstanding.

as far as th hof monitor at baseball-ref. ... do you think robby alomar is a better hitter than frank? cause he's ranked 38. do you think alomar is the 38th best hitter of all time??? do you think pudge rodriguez is a better hitter than frank? cause he's ranked 48.
that whole thing is based on one guy who has his own system. you talk like it's the holy grail.

there is nothing absurd about the question at all. thomas going in on the first ballot is a big question. going in at all is a small question (there are some writers who won't vote him in).

i think he's deserving and will/should go in. i also think it would help his cause if he can stick around awhile and add to those lifetime stats.Who else has had 8 straight years like that who is NOT in the HOF?

Actually, I would use the HOF standards in preference to the HOF monitor. If you read their descriptions, they basically use the monitor to predict likelihood while the standards predicts quality. As we all know, they're not always the same thing. Using the HOF standards, Robbie Alomar is even with Frank Thomas. While you might argue which is better, I don't think there's any question both will be in the HOF. Ivan Rodriguez is way down the list.

oeo
02-09-2005, 10:28 PM
At age 36, with 436 HRs, Frank Thomas has stated that he truly wants to get to the monumental 500 HR club....

If he does in fact do it, will it be with the Sox?

My guess is no considering KW's history with big Frank and his recent spiral from greatness. Any thoughts?

Be easy, this is my second post...I'm just figuring this out...

I'd like him to get to 500, hopefully he can stay healthy and get there in a few years. I would be really saddened if Frank left the Sox and finished his career elsewhere.

Nick@Nite
02-09-2005, 11:03 PM
Come on now, tell me what leads you to believe that Griffey took steroids? Because he's injury prone? Noticeable weight gain? Tell me which injury/injuries lead you to believe that it's steroid use....
Like I said, he seems to severly pull his hammy every other month or so. I say "seems" because I don't have his medical history in front of me. I remember Junior smashing into the fence, breaking his wrist (in 2001?)... I wouldn't insult anyones intelligence by implying that was due to 'roid use.

After all, the thought of Griffey putting up great offensive numbers in the Kingdome bandbox at the prime of his career while he was injury free is hard to fathom. No explanation to his success whatsoever.

Sorry, but someone who had good offensive numbers didn't necessarily cheat to do it. If you don't like him cool, but I believe he's on the up and up.
It took MLB thirteen seasons to see the 50HR barrier broken, between George Foster's 52 in 1977 to Cecil Fielder's 51 in 1990. Up until last year, the 50 HR barrier was crashed like it was nothing at all. Too me, that's significant.

Nothing against Junior, I just think he, along with the majority of of MLB players, take all sorts of substances. Some are legal, and some aren't. I'll always remain skeptical. That's just my opinion.

Nick@Nite
02-09-2005, 11:09 PM
Good point, but where did he play during his career? After 1992, he played in Camden Yards and the Ballpark in Arlington. I would categorize those ballparks as hitters parks.....I'm still not convinced on Palmeiro and I'm absolutely not convinced about Griffey, Jr- sorry.

No problem. :cool:

I was "feeling" it this morning, and opinions on steroids interest me. If I wasn't so fast with my thoughts, I'd have combined the Junior & Raffy posts into one. I'm blaming it on my coffee not kicking in fast enough. :redneck

SoxBoy14
02-09-2005, 11:13 PM
Frank is the best non-steroid using hitter in the modern era. Case clsoed.





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nccwsfan
02-09-2005, 11:56 PM
No problem. :cool:

I was "feeling" it this morning, and opinions on steroids interest me. If I wasn't so fast with my thoughts, I'd have combined the Junior & Raffy posts into one. I'm blaming it on my coffee not kicking in fast enough. :redneck

Gotcha...time will tell I suppose. :cool:

Deadguy
02-12-2005, 08:57 PM
as far as th hof monitor at baseball-ref. ... do you think robby alomar is a better hitter than frank? cause he's ranked 38. do you think alomar is the 38th best hitter of all time??? do you think pudge rodriguez is a better hitter than frank? cause he's ranked 48.
that whole thing is based on one guy who has his own system. you talk like it's the holy grail.


If you are going to write off a system such as this, at least do some research on it, so you don't come off as being completely ignorant.

If you actually did understand it, which the above indicates that you certainly do not, you'd know why Ivan and Alomar are rated ahead of Thomas:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#hof_standards

James's version: Defensive value: 20 points for catcher, 16 - shortstop, 14 - second base, 13 - third base, 12 - center fielder, 6 - right fielder, 3 - left fielder, 1 - first baseman, 0 - designated hitter

Ivan automatically starts with a base of 20, Roberto starts with a base of 13, and Thomas starts at 1 or 0. Points are then added on from there. This system is adjusted for for offensive value from various defensive positions, which is something you obviously are not aware of.

RKMeibalane
02-12-2005, 09:16 PM
Like I said, he seems to severly pull his hammy every other month or so. I say "seems" because I don't have his medical history in front of me. I remember Junior smashing into the fence, breaking his wrist (in 2001?)... I wouldn't insult anyones intelligence by implying that was due to 'roid use.

The injury to Griffey's wrist occurred May 26, 1995, against the Baltimore Orioles.

idseer
02-12-2005, 10:23 PM
If you are going to write off a system such as this, at least do some research on it, so you don't come off as being completely ignorant.



look pal. i wasn't the one who said frank was the 49th best hitter of all time i simply used the silliness of the posters argument against him. apparently YOU missed that.!

i have no problem using bb ref. stats from time to time. i don't write off any system they use. but those numbers are also meant to be a guide .... NOT facts in stone. he flaunted the #49. or were you too busy being smug to notice?

NSSoxFan
02-12-2005, 10:27 PM
look pal. i wasn't the one who said frank was the 49th best hitter of all time i simply used the silliness of the posters argument against him. apparently YOU missed that.!

i have no problem using bb ref. stats from time to time. i don't write off any system they use. but those numbers are also meant to be a guide .... NOT facts in stone. he flaunted the #49. or were you too busy being smug to notice?

I agree with you on this one idseer. I took a look at those numbers, and I didn't really put to much stock into them.

rwcescato
02-12-2005, 10:41 PM
That's a good question. Right now, I think there's a 50/50 chance that he does it wearing a Sox uniform. There's no doubt in my mind that he will reach the 500-mark, but there is some question as to how long the Sox will keep him around. They don't seem interested in picking up his option for 2006, and I don't see that changing, even if he has a big season once he returns from the ankle injury. OTOH, Reinsdorf is a huge Frank fan, and after seeing how badly the relationship between the Sox and Magglio Ordonez ended, I think he'll make an effort to bring Frank back so that he can end his career on the South Side.

I really hope Frank ends his career here. After this whole steroid thing has broken out, its nice to talk about Frank. The only thing he has done bad is not being able to speak words without saying something stupid. The last year or so he really has become a much better team player. If he does hit 500 HRs he should undoubtly be in the HOF. Knowing he hit the HRs during the Steriod period and did not use them himself makes him that much of a beeter player. Come on Frank have another MVP year and take us to the WS.

Rich