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Fenway
02-06-2005, 02:43 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/images/heads/head0206.gif
Daily News Exclusive: Swollen ex-slugger Jose Canseco lays waste to the game that made him famous in a shocking new book, outing several stars as steroid abusers, the Daily News has learned. The longtime Oakland star sez he introduced steroids to the game and injected fellow Bash Brother Mark McGwire in the butt numerous times in clubhouse bathroom stalls. He also describes watching disgraced Yank slugger Jason Giambi and McGwire injecting each other when they both played with Oakland.
FULL STORY (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/278279p-238313c.html)

http://www.nydailynews.com/ips_rich_content/561-FRONT_BIG.jpg

santo=dorf
02-06-2005, 02:45 PM
he personally taught All-Star and potential Hall of Famers Ivan (Pudge) Rodriguez, Rafael Palmeiro and Juan Gonzalez to use 'roids after he was traded to the Texas Rangers in 1992. I-Rod? Not surprised about Gonzalez, and would steroids explain Raffy's impotence? :redneck

Jabroni
02-06-2005, 02:46 PM
"Jose Canseco injected fellow Bash Brother Mark McGwire in the butt numerous times." :?:

:chunks

NSSoxFan
02-06-2005, 02:52 PM
Wow, just wow. This makes me sick if Canseco is telling the truth.

voodoochile
02-06-2005, 02:55 PM
shocking...

Fenway
02-06-2005, 02:56 PM
he hinted at this 2 years ago

http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/archives/000974.php

May 22, 2002

Jose Canseco was an entertaining guest on WWZN's "The McDonough Group" this evening. He said he would have no issue with a gay teammate. (The gay baseball player topic was hot on WEEI and WWZN) Jose said he respects their lifestyle and their "religion". In talking about his upcoming tell-all book he again mentioned that steroids have completely changed the game of baseball. He said they will have serious health effects on those who have used them for many years. "Any drug you put in your body too much will be a detriment to your health" was his basic message there .He talked about the quantities of women available to professional athletes. Somehow in both the women thing and the drug thing he gave off the vibe that he indulged in neither. He called WWZN co-host Steve Burton "one of the few genuine nice guys in the world today."

Frankfan4life
02-06-2005, 03:36 PM
Can you believe that cancer played for the White Sox. This makes me sick to my stomach. I wonder if he tried to get some of the Sox to try this junk.

TheBull19
02-06-2005, 03:37 PM
The longtime Oakland star sez he injected fellow Bash Brother Mark McGwire


Who didn't?

NSSoxFan
02-06-2005, 03:43 PM
Who didn't?

Who didn't do what? Steroids? If so, Frank Thomas.

Clembasbal
02-06-2005, 03:44 PM
Can you believe that cancer played for the White Sox. This makes me sick to my stomach. I wonder if he tried to get some of the Sox to try this junk.

Other than being a Roid freak, I actually loved him in Oakland and liked him the rest of his career. He was blackballed from MLB, and he is doing justice...outing all the bums and hopefully telling the truth and giving baseball a bad rap...which is what it needs for all of this setroid use.

He used it, he admits it, why won't anybody else step up and be a man and admit it. If that is true about McGwire, he should say so, he don't hold the record anymore so it doesn't matter.

HoustonAstros967
02-06-2005, 03:48 PM
I-Rod? Not surprised about Gonzalez, and would steroids explain Raffy's impotence? :redneck

Ivan Rodriguez??? I don't now if its just me but i would never have seen that coming.

SOX ADDICT '73
02-06-2005, 04:27 PM
If that is true about McGwire, he should say so, he don't hold the record anymore so it doesn't matter.
No, and the guy who holds it now is totally clean. Lots of guys outgrow their batting helmets after the age of 35 :wink:.

JoseCanseco6969
02-06-2005, 04:27 PM
Other than being a Roid freak, I actually loved him in Oakland and liked him the rest of his career. He was blackballed from MLB, and he is doing justice...outing all the bums and hopefully telling the truth and giving baseball a bad rap...which is what it needs for all of this setroid use.

He used it, he admits it, why won't anybody else step up and be a man and admit it. If that is true about McGwire, he should say so, he don't hold the record anymore so it doesn't matter.

Obviously, I think it's great that hes spilling the beans. Steroid use should be exposed and these players need to fess up. Good job Jose

HawkDJ
02-06-2005, 04:34 PM
I'm sorry I can't help but post this picture for no reason. There can't be a better time for this:

:canseco

Frankfan4life
02-06-2005, 04:35 PM
Other than being a Roid freak, I actually loved him in Oakland and liked him the rest of his career. He was blackballed from MLB, and he is doing justice...outing all the bums and hopefully telling the truth and giving baseball a bad rap...which is what it needs for all of this setroid use.

He used it, he admits it, why won't anybody else step up and be a man and admit it. If that is true about McGwire, he should say so, he don't hold the record anymore so it doesn't matter.I don't understand why you admire this guy. He's a cheater. Canseco was trying to get an unfair advantage and saw nothing wrong with it. Roids may help make you a better ballplayer (athlete) but they can also wreck your system, mentally and physically. It's not worth the risk to do these type of drugs no matter the reward in the short term. I feel that Canseco and his roids were the problem not the MLB.

That said, I'm also glad Canseco wrote the book. If truthful, it should give MLB the kick in the pants it needs to clean up its act.

SOXintheBURGH
02-06-2005, 05:12 PM
"Jose Canseco injected fellow Bash Brother Mark McGwire in the butt numerous times." :?:




Not that there's anything wrong with that.. unless, of course, its steroids.

Nick@Nite
02-06-2005, 06:00 PM
Deep down, the only cheaters I despise are those who are hypocritical. Canseco cheated... there's a first! With that said, he never patronized baseball fans with a holier-than-thou type attitude.

I'm checking out his book. :cool:

RKMeibalane
02-06-2005, 08:04 PM
Ivan Rodriguez??? I don't now if its just me but i would never have seen that coming.

I can see it. When Rodriguez came into the league, he was not a good hitter by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, a number of people were complaining his offense, or lack thereof.

Cubbiesuck13
02-06-2005, 09:29 PM
Isn't he on house arrest still? This is clearly a money making, doesn't have to be true, tell all book. I don't doubt that the guys were on 'roids but I don't believe it simply because he says it. I hope something good can come out of it, like better testing.

Brian26
02-06-2005, 09:48 PM
He also describes watching disgraced Yank slugger Jason Giambi and McGwire injecting each other when they both played with Oakland.


Without checking the record books, did Giambi and Mac ever play on the same A's team? McGwire's last yr with the A's was '95 wasn't it? Giambi was already in the league? I'll have to check this out...

Brian26
02-06-2005, 09:51 PM
Ok, I'm wrong. Giambi debuted in May of '95. McGwire played until mid '97 with the A's before they traded him to St. Louis. And, Canseco left the A's in '92 but came back for the '97 season. So, all three of them were on the A's in 1997.

Ol' No. 2
02-06-2005, 10:32 PM
This mess is a long way from being over. I predict a year from now there will be a lot more players implicated.

NSSoxFan
02-06-2005, 10:37 PM
This mess is a long way from being over. I predict a year from now there will be a lot more players implicated.

No question about it. Just hope no Sox players, which I doubt, will be implecated. Also, just makes me so glad that I can call a person like Frank my favorite player ever.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-06-2005, 10:43 PM
The mental picture of Canseco shooting McGwire with steroids in the ass inside a clubhouse bathroom stall is a disturbing thought I could have done without.

:o:

Brian26
02-06-2005, 10:54 PM
The mental picture of Canseco shooting McGwire with steroids in the ass inside a clubhouse bathroom stall is a disturbing thought I could have done without.

:o:

"Not much was happening until...."

:canseco

"Hey Pock-Mark, meet me in stall #3 in 10 minutes."

nccwsfan
02-06-2005, 11:22 PM
No question about it. Just hope no Sox players, which I doubt, will be implecated. Also, just makes me so glad that I can call a person like Frank my favorite player ever.

It might be a better idea not to criticize the players he implicates until this book is out- we can hope that no White Sox players were part of Canseco's 'inner circle', but if there was it could make for very interesting debates....I'm optimistic that there weren't any (steriod users on the White Sox).

Ol' No. 2
02-06-2005, 11:25 PM
It might be a better idea not to criticize the players he implicates until this book is out- we can hope that no White Sox players were part of Canseco's 'inner circle', but if there was it could make for very interesting debates....I'm optimistic that there weren't any (steriod users on the White Sox).If it's nearly as prevalent as it seems to be, I'd have to say it's a bit naive to think that no White Sox players have ever used steroids. I don't want to get into guessing who, but brace yourself for the worst.:(:

nccwsfan
02-06-2005, 11:35 PM
If it's nearly as prevalent as it seems to be, I'd have to say it's a bit naive to think that no White Sox players have ever used steroids. I don't want to get into guessing who, but brace yourself for the worst.:(:

That's my point- people on these boards will trash Giambi, McGwire, Bonds et al, but if some White Sox fan favorites are in this book....well it will be interesting to say the least. Again, I'm hopeful and right now give everyone the benefit of the doubt...

oeo
02-06-2005, 11:39 PM
This is absolutely disgraceful...any child that grew up watching baseball in the 90's now has to look at their heroes as be cheaters.

Viva Medias B's
02-06-2005, 11:45 PM
The book is an homage to steroids, and Canseco says that he not only used them, but that all players should. He concedes that kids shouldn't use them and no one should abuse the muscle-building drugs, but Canseco practically offers a how-to guide to steroids and human growth hormone. The fact that he said all players should use steroids is scary and questions how level-headed he is (or is not).

Banix12
02-07-2005, 02:14 AM
I could buy I Rod using steriods, not so much for the power hitting aspect but more for the ability of steroids to allow the body to heal quickly after physical activity. I don't remember how many years in a row he was leading the league in games caught when he was with the Rangers, but I know it was for awhile. He did it all while hitting at an exceptional level.

i still didn't really see his name being implicated coming and either way it would be wrong.

I still think acquiring Canseco during that lost season was a big mistake, i hope few were tempted by his lifestyle. Especially after seeing his constant facial ticks. I wonder if it was experiences with Canseco to lead those 16 White Sox players in that talked about steroid testing revolt a few years ago where the players would refuse the test to enact a mandatory testing policy. Certainly seems like it could be possible.

eastchicagosoxfan
02-07-2005, 08:29 AM
Did Ripken use roids? Almost certainly not, but expect his name to get drawn into this. At some point, one of the accused will drop Ripken's name, and use his streak as a comparison. I wonder if Konerko tried it. His first half of 2003 was atrocious, and I wonder if he was coming off the juice? My guess is that steriod use was so pervassive in the league, with so many big names, that guys' stats will be " grandfathered in " so to speak. I'm against it, but don't look for MLB to drag this out. It'll be the jiuced era of inflated stats. There may be a token punishment, and then on with the future. I wonder if Canseco has any collaborating eveidence? Historians will not judge these players kindly. Albert Belle, is he in this mix?

white sox bill
02-07-2005, 10:14 AM
Athletes using performance enhancing drugs--shocking!

PaleHoseGeorge
02-07-2005, 10:17 AM
Athletes using performance enhancing drugs--shocking!

This is teal.

And baseball isn't a fake sport. Unlike others I can name.
:cool:

Unregistered
02-07-2005, 02:37 PM
According the Dan Patrick, Dave Stewart, the former A's pitcher said he wouldn't confirm or deny Canseco's story, but he would say that "Jose is not a liar," for whatever that's worth...

chisox2005
02-07-2005, 05:45 PM
This is absolutely disgraceful...any child that grew up watching baseball in the 90's now has to look at their heroes as be cheaters.

C'mon, how could you not think that these guys might be on 'roids? When guys like McGuire, Sosa, Bonds, and Canseco go from being pretty skinny guys into these giant beasts in a short period of time you know something is up. Especially when their power production just shoots through the roof. I think with the excitement the homerun ball brought, Major League Baseball just tried to sweep all of this under the rug.

BigEdWalsh
02-07-2005, 06:08 PM
JOSE "THE INJECTOR" CANSECO
:canseco "Hey, Sammy! Come here!"

AZChiSoxFan
02-07-2005, 06:08 PM
Athletes using performance enhancing drugs--shocking!

:tealpolice:

Jabroni
02-07-2005, 06:33 PM
Palmeiro is denying that he ever took steroids and is saying that Canseco is lying. Pudge and Juan-Gone declined comment...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1986479"I categorically deny any assertion made by Jose Canseco that I used steroids," Palmeiro said in a statement. "At no point in my career have I ever used steroids, let alone any substance banned by Major League Baseball. As I have never had a personal relationship with Canseco, any suggestion that he taught me anything, about steroid use or otherwise, is ludicrous.

"We were teammates and that was the extent of our relationship. I am saddened that he felt it necessary to attempt to tarnish my image and that of the game that I love."

Rodriguez and Gonzalez said that they had not seen the book and declined comment.

AZChiSoxFan
02-07-2005, 06:35 PM
C'mon, how could you not think that these guys might be on 'roids? When guys like McGuire, Sosa, Bonds, and Canseco go from being pretty skinny guys into these giant beasts in a short period of time you know something is up. Especially when their power production just shoots through the roof. I think with the excitement the homerun ball brought, Major League Baseball just tried to sweep all of this under the rug.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but had to comment since you mentioned McGwire. I totally agree with you regarding how scrawny these guys used to be, compared to the Hulks they turned into. That's why, IMO, it's hypocrisy the way people criticize Bonds, Canseco, and Sosa, but let McGwire off with a free pass simply because he did interviews and was "a nice guy." Sorry, but I never bought into the media driven, forced fed, lovefest of 1998 in regards to BOTH Sosa and McGwire. By the way, on a different note, how is it that McGwire is a member of the all-century team and will be a first ballot Hall of Famer, while Canseco won't even come close to the Hall? Compare their career stats:

McGwire Canseco
Hits 1626 1877
HR's 583 462
RBI 1414 1407
BA .263 .266

MVP's 0 1


Look at the numbers. Is one of these players truly a first ballot HOF'er while the other will never even see the Hall?????

Jabroni
02-07-2005, 06:49 PM
Not trying to hijack the thread, but had to comment since you mentioned McGwire. I totally agree with you regarding how scrawny these guys used to be, compared to the Hulks they turned into. That's why, IMO, it's hypocrisy the way people criticize Bonds, Canseco, and Sosa, but let McGwire off with a free pass simply because he did interviews and was "a nice guy." Sorry, but I never bought into the media driven, forced fed, lovefest of 1998 in regards to BOTH Sosa and McGwire. By the way, on a different note, how is it that McGwire is a member of the all-century team and will be a first ballot Hall of Famer, while Canseco won't even come close to the Hall? Compare their career stats:

McGwire Canseco
Hits 1626 1877
HR's 583 462
RBI 1414 1407
BA .263 .266

MVP's 0 1


Look at the numbers. Is one of these players truly a first ballot HOF'er while the other will never even see the Hall?????Yep, Canseco wanted badly to get to 500 homers so they would be forced to put him in the Hall of Fame. Now that he realizes his playing days are over and he won't make the Hall he is making money by outing other roiders in his book. He must figure he doesn't have anything to lose. I have no problem with it. Canseco may not be an angel but at least he is telling the truth now. That's better than what guys like McGwire, Sosa, etc. are doing.

Frater Perdurabo
02-07-2005, 06:52 PM
By the way, on a different note, how is it that McGwire is a member of the all-century team and will be a first ballot Hall of Famer, while Canseco won't even come close to the Hall? Compare their career stats:

McGwire Canseco
Hits 1626 1877
HR's 583 462
RBI 1414 1407
BA .263 .266

MVP's 0 1


Look at the numbers. Is one of these players truly a first ballot HOF'er while the other will never even see the Hall?????

I'm surprised they are as close as they are, except of course the HR totals. Then again, Canseco has 251 more hits and was the first 40/40 player. However, McGwire has the "magic number" of 500+ homers, plus the 1998 season of 70. Personally, I think their numbers merit HOF inductions, although the steroid issue forces one to reconsider the whole lot. Imagine what either would have done without injuries (which very well could have been due to steroids).

SpartanSoxFan
02-07-2005, 07:37 PM
I just heard the guys on the Rick Telander Show talking about this book. Among the revelations Conseco makes are that he injected steroids into Mark McGwire's buttocks, and more shocking (too me, anyway) revelations that Ivan Rodriguez and Rafael Palmiero were among the juicers. I have a feeling he is telling the truth, even though it probably is for selfish reasons.

JUribe1989
02-07-2005, 07:40 PM
I never liked Pudge and his show off attitude. It will be hard for him to show off now that we know he is a juicer.

HoustonAstros967
02-07-2005, 07:52 PM
I really hope Pudge gets exposed for the crook he is. I hope his numbers go down A LOT!

RKMeibalane
02-07-2005, 08:06 PM
Ok, I'm wrong. Giambi debuted in May of '95. McGwire played until mid '97 with the A's before they traded him to St. Louis. And, Canseco left the A's in '92 but came back for the '97 season. So, all three of them were on the A's in 1997.

That's correct.

nccwsfan
02-07-2005, 09:09 PM
Palmeiro is denying that he ever took steroids and is saying that Canseco is lying. Pudge and Juan-Gone declined comment...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1986479

This is just a shame. Either a) Canseco's a huge liar and has some MO to get back at ex-players (and good luck to the alleged players trying to absolve their good name after this book comes out), b) Canseco's telling the absolute truth and many heroes of the game are going to be villified, or c) he's telling a half truth and certain players did/didn't do what he's alleging.

No one is going to come out of this a winner.

Banix12
02-07-2005, 09:24 PM
Without those final few years in St. Louis, McGwire would not be a hall of famer. McGwire is an interesting hall of fame pick because if you look at his stats before 1996, he's hardly hall of fame material. Before 1996 his best season had been his rookie year in 1987 and he was often injured after that or hit for avg poorly. So Big Mac really isn't getting in on the basis of his whole career but mostly just for that 4 year span from 1996-1999. If you look at the entire career you basically see Dave Kingman with a couple better HR years.

JB98
02-07-2005, 10:06 PM
I might be in the severe minority here, but my reaction to the Canseco allegations is a shrug. I just don't care. Even if the statements are true, so what? I don't know why I should be shocked. I don't delude myself into thinking that all these ballplayers are model citizens, so I'm rarely surprised when it becomes apparent that certain players are revealed to be a criminal, a liar, a cheat, etc.

These allegations are fodder for the media, so they can write more columns full of mock indignation. Frankly, I don't find this to be that much of an outrage.

Homer J Simpson
02-08-2005, 12:06 PM
As long as there is a competition, some athletes will break the rules to get an edge. It's human nature. What shocks me is the large amounts these guys are taking. I won a Mr. Illinois bodybuilding title in the 80's. Back then, the rule of thumb was to double the dose suggested in the Physicians Desk Reference. By the time I quit, it was 10X, and guys started dying. All for a $20 trophy. I am still ashamed for my sport and how things got so dangerous. Baseball and football are due to have some very dirty laundry aired out.

I'll get in trouble saying this, but under a Dr.'s care, sane doses, and blood work, it's not going to harm a healthy athlete. But these guys are buying blackmarket, taking insane amounts, not testing, and paying a terrible price. I know that drug tests are beatable, and when a new test is invented, a new drug is developed to beat it. I'd rather see athletes under a Dr.'s care.

That said, I hate steroids, but I think medical supervision is the only solution.

Uncle_Patrick
02-08-2005, 12:58 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay08.html

Jay Marriotti weighs in on the topic. Just what we were all waiting for, I know.

He also takes a shot at JR. What a surprise!


But tell me, who are the commissioner and owners to be debunking credibility? Having participated complicitly in the scandals by wrapping themselves in the '90s home-run rage and looking the other way, they might have less credibility than Canseco. And should I mention that a certain owner on the South Side signed the steroids-wired Canseco for a stretch of the 2001 season?

Brian26
02-08-2005, 01:02 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay08.html

Jay Marriotti weighs in on the topic. Just what we were all waiting for, I know.

He also takes a shot at JR. What a surprise!

Geezuz. Who cares. Canseco played for about 12 other teams too. Give me a break.

MUsoxfan
02-08-2005, 01:03 PM
[/color]

OH MY!!:o:

Flight #24
02-08-2005, 01:04 PM
The unasked question is: Who's Casenco, and did he ever inject Jose Valentine?

wdelaney72
02-08-2005, 01:19 PM
The unasked question is: Who's Casenco, and did he ever inject Jose Valentine?

No, Jose Valentine was injected by Mark Burrlee

Jabroni
02-08-2005, 02:41 PM
Tigers | Pudge Denies Steroid Allegations - from www.KFFL.com
Tue, 8 Feb 2005 09:41:50 -0800

The Associated Press reports Detroit Tigers C Ivan Rodriguez denies allegations made by former teammate OF Jose Canseco that he used steroids. "I'm in shock," Rodriguez told local El Nuevo Dia newspaper for Tuesday's editions. "He is saying things that aren't true, and it hurts me a lot that he would say things like that because I've always had a lot of respect for him, and I've even helped him many times when things weren't going well for him."Deny, deny, deny.

Ol' No. 2
02-08-2005, 02:47 PM
Deny, deny, deny.This is going to get a lot worse before it's over. I wonder if Bud Selig still thinks Sosa and McGwire "saved baseball"?:(:

TheBull19
02-08-2005, 02:53 PM
Who didn't do what? Steroids? If so, Frank Thomas.

Who didn't inject McGwire with steroids.

Maximo
02-08-2005, 02:58 PM
Deny, deny, deny.

Then get a lawyer, Irod, and go sue him and the publishing company. That's why there are laws against libel and slander.

tlebar318
02-09-2005, 09:25 AM
I wonder if Conseco turned anyone on the Sox to the "juice" while he was with them? To me it looked like Valentin was taking something....

Dan H
02-09-2005, 10:50 AM
Canseco is a goof, but no matter how credible he is at the moment, Baseball has a problem. Perception is everything and the game will have to do something about this issue. Attacking Canseco won't cut it. Everyone is under suspicion now, and all records are tainted. A PR spin will not solve the problem.

AZChiSoxFan
02-09-2005, 11:13 AM
If McGwire, Rodriguez, and Palmeiro don't sue for libel, it will speak volumes IMO, regardless of what they say publicly.

Viva Medias B's
02-09-2005, 11:15 AM
Dan Bernstein just announced that Jose Canseco himself will appear on WSCR in studio on February 28 at 11:00 a.m. to promote the book

Viva Medias B's
02-09-2005, 11:16 AM
If McGwire, Rodriguez, and Palmeiro don't sue for libel, it will speak volumes IMO, regardless of what they say publicly.

Bingo.

spawn
02-09-2005, 11:29 AM
If McGwire, Rodriguez, and Palmeiro don't sue for libel, it will speak volumes IMO, regardless of what they say publicly.
Not necessarily. It would be hard for Canseco to prove they were on the juice, and it would be equally as hard for these guys to prove they weren't. A lbel suit would do them no good. And it would give more publicity to Canseco's book, which something I'm sure none of the parties involved would want. I'm sorry...I'm not a big fan of Rodriguez, but I just don't buy Canseco's story. Palmeiro doesn't look like he used. But then, it wouldn't surprise me. Now here's what ticks me off. There have always been whispers Bonds was on roids, and, obviously, rightfully so. But it seems as if no one wants to believe McGwire juiced. I don't mean to make it a race battle, but it's like McGwire is the All-American, flag-waving, apple pie eating hero that can do no wrong. After all, he did save baseball. Bonds, meanwhile is the typical anti-hero. Granted, he doesn't help his image out at all by being a surly a-hole, but c'mon. People are so ready and willing to believe McGwire never juiced.

D. TODD
02-09-2005, 11:41 AM
Not necessarily. It would be hard for Canseco to prove they were on the juice, and it would be equally as hard for these guys to prove they weren't. A lbel suit would do them no good. And it would give more publicity to Canseco's book, which something I'm sure none of the parties involved would want. I'm sorry...I'm not a big fan of Rodriguez, but I just don't but Canseco's story. Palmeiro doesn't look like he used. But then, it wouldn't surprise me. Now here's what ticks me off. There have always been whispers Bonds was on roids, and, obviously, rightfully so. But it seems as if no one wants to believe McGuire juiced. I don't mean to make it a race battle, but it's like McGwire is the All-American, flag-waving, apple pie eating hero that can do no wrong. After all, he did save baseball. Bonds, meanwhile is the typical anti-hero. Granted, he doesn't help his image out at all by being a surly a-hole, but c'mon. People are so ready and willing to believe McGwire never juiced. I couldn't agree more! Big Mac is every bit as obvious as Sosa & Bonds, yet he gets a free pass it seems on the questioning and criticism. He did have tons of Andro (which is a banned substance now) in his locker during his run which often goes hand and hand with the other performance enhancing supplements, Yet you rarely hear his name mentioned or at least not mentioned with as much anger as Bonds & Sosa.

D. TODD
02-09-2005, 11:48 AM
I think we should all be careful in throwing names around without the evidence though. It would be naive to think these few people juiced, hell Marvin Bernard tested positive. All teams have players that experimented, the White Sox included. A certain balding first baseman who developed a nice size ridge on his forehead has been a big part of the southside the past 3 years, but that doesn't mean he has been juicing.

Ol' No. 2
02-09-2005, 11:51 AM
I think we should all be careful in throwing names around without the evidence though. It would be naive to think these few people juiced, hell Marvin Bernard tested positive. All teams have players that experimented, the White Sox included. A certain balding first baseman who developed a nice size ridge on his forehead has been a big part of the southside the past 3 years, but that doesn't mean he has been juicing.So you don't think people should be throwing names around, then insinuate something about PK? Sorry, but that's the biggest pile of crap I've read in some time.

spawn
02-09-2005, 11:53 AM
I agree. That's why I'm not willing to believe Canseco's allegations just yet. Yes, I believe steroids was a problem while he was playing. Yes, his allegations could prove to be right on the money. But until a more reliable person comes forward to back up his claims, I just have a hard time believing him. I'm not willing to throw everyone under the bus just yet.

jackbrohamer
02-09-2005, 11:57 AM
Canseco is a goof, but no matter how credible he is at the moment, Baseball has a problem. Perception is everything and the game will have to do something about this issue. Attacking Canseco won't cut it. Everyone is under suspicion now, and all records are tainted. A PR spin will not solve the problem.

I agree on all counts, but MLB, the players, ESPN and the rest of the media all have a $$$ interest in doing whatever it takes to show MLB is "pure" and Bonds, Sosa, etc. are "heroes". Look for an all-out attack on everything Canseco says about anyone.

white sox bill
02-09-2005, 12:01 PM
As long as there is a competition, some athletes will break the rules to get an edge. It's human nature. What shocks me is the large amounts these guys are taking. I won a Mr. Illinois bodybuilding title in the 80's. Back then, the rule of thumb was to double the dose suggested in the Physicians Desk Reference. By the time I quit, it was 10X, and guys started dying. All for a $20 trophy. I am still ashamed for my sport and how things got so dangerous. Baseball and football are due to have some very dirty laundry aired out.

I'll get in trouble saying this, but under a Dr.'s care, sane doses, and blood work, it's not going to harm a healthy athlete. But these guys are buying blackmarket, taking insane amounts, not testing, and paying a terrible price. I know that drug tests are beatable, and when a new test is invented, a new drug is developed to beat it. I'd rather see athletes under a Dr.'s care.

That said, I hate steroids, but I think medical supervision is the only solution.


Hey Homer,
Since you competed, whatever became of Ira Hurley, pres. of IPA? Or Walt Rivers who put on several contests I was in? Back in the 80's, I saw the AAU starting to play second fiddle to the NPC, so I went w/them. Did OK 'till I ran into one of the Smith brothers in the Mr Central USA States, then a HUGE dude from California (suprise!) in the Mid-America!Ahhhh!

spawn
02-09-2005, 12:06 PM
The only problem is, Canseco isn't exactly a credible source. The guy repeatedly denied using steroids when he played, then backed off his stance of 80% of the players in the game used. And from what I heard, in the book he still uses the 08% claim. Canseco may have done Selig and MLB a favor in releasing this book. He's given them a bad guy to point fingers at.

shoota
02-09-2005, 12:10 PM
Not necessarily. It would be hard for Canseco to prove they were on the juice, and it would be equally as hard for these guys to prove they weren't. A lbel suit would do them no good. And it would give more publicity to Canseco's book, which something I'm sure none of the parties involved would want. I'm sorry...I'm not a big fan of Rodriguez, but I just don't buy Canseco's story. Palmeiro doesn't look like he used. But then, it wouldn't surprise me. Now here's what ticks me off. There have always been whispers Bonds was on roids, and, obviously, rightfully so. But it seems as if no one wants to believe McGwire juiced. I don't mean to make it a race battle, but it's like McGwire is the All-American, flag-waving, apple pie eating hero that can do no wrong. After all, he did save baseball. Bonds, meanwhile is the typical anti-hero. Granted, he doesn't help his image out at all by being a surly a-hole, but c'mon. People are so ready and willing to believe McGwire never juiced.

I don't think it's racism (at least not by the media, maybe some fans). I think McGwire gets more of a pass because he had been retired and out of baseball by the time all this BALCO and steroid talk began. Also, you mentioned Bonds' attitude towards media which didn't help his defense. And unlike Bonds, McGwire came into MLB as a power hitter and left as a power hitter. I mean, McGwire hit 49 home runs in his first full season in MLB at age 23. Though you could argue he was on steroids from day 1.

But the biggest factor why media have attacked Bonds more than McGwire is because it is an admitted fact that Bonds took steroids.

MUsoxfan
02-09-2005, 12:16 PM
I have no reason to doubt Canseco. It was brought up earlier (and yesterday on MJ&H) that if these allegations are false, then there would be lawsuits already flying around. Palmeiro just says "Uhhh...I didn't do any steroids" and leaves it at that. I don't believe him for a second. I don't believe McGwire wasn't on 'roids either. He clearly was, but he gets sort of a "free pass" when mentioned with Bonds, Sosa, etc because he no longer plays in the league and he's not on the top of everyone's mind anymore. I don't buy a "race" issue because Giambi is as white as they come and people were ready and willing to burn him at the stake during their steroid witchhunt before it was known he admitted to it in court.

mjharrison72
02-09-2005, 12:17 PM
If McGwire, Rodriguez, and Palmeiro don't sue for libel, it will speak volumes IMO, regardless of what they say publicly.
Someone brought this up on the radio this morning... the problem with having a libel case is they have to have incontrovertable proof to the contrary. Essentially, these guys would have to have negative steriod tests from, what, every week/month for the period in question. Further, then they have to prove that Canseco and the publisher published these falsehoods maliciously.
Libel is notoriously difficult to prove... absent proof of malice or absolute proof that the allegations are false, Mac, I-Rod and Raffi have no legal standing... but it also doesn't stand that if they don't sue for libel, the allegations are true. They probably just wouldn't want to spend money on a case they couldn't win. But watch them all sue for libel and lose, just because of the public perception of not suing.

Mickster
02-09-2005, 12:29 PM
Someone brought this up on the radio this morning... the problem with having a libel case is they have to have incontrovertable proof to the contrary. Essentially, these guys would have to have negative steriod tests from, what, every week/month for the period in question. Further, then they have to prove that Canseco and the publisher published these falsehoods maliciously.
Libel is notoriously difficult to prove... absent proof of malice or absolute proof that the allegations are false, Mac, I-Rod and Raffi have no legal standing... but it also doesn't stand that if they don't sue for libel, the allegations are true. They probably just wouldn't want to spend money on a case they couldn't win. But watch them all sue for libel and lose, just because of the public perception of not suing.

The publisher of Canseco's book knows what it is doing and has publicly stated that they "stand by" Conseco's allegations. I libel suit would not be just against Canseco, but against the publisher as well. I will assume that the publisher has, in some way, corroborated the allegations by some 3rd party witnesses. I find it very difficult to believe that if the allegations are indeed correct, that no other individual heard or saw anything in any of the clubhouses where the alleged acts took place.

Remember that a libel suit requires proof "beyond a preponderance of the evidence" and not proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" that is required in a criminal case. Basically, Jose would have to show that his statements are more likely true than not true in his defense.

spawn
02-09-2005, 12:30 PM
I don't buy a "race" issue because Giambi is as white as they come and people were ready and willing to burn him at the stake during their steroid witchhunt before it was known he admitted to it in court.
True, but Giambi didn't save baseball, McGwire did, that's why he gets a pass, in my opinion. McGwire seems untochable. And even before Bonds admitted he unknowingly used, there was the usual rumors that he was juiced. McGwire admitted the andro use, and everyone left it at that.

And unlike Bonds, McGwire came into MLB as a power hitter and left as a power hitter.

Yeah, but if you look at pictures of McGwire when he came in the league and then look at him when he left, there is a noticeable difference.

Maximo
02-09-2005, 12:31 PM
If McGwire, Rodriguez, and Palmeiro don't sue for libel, it will speak volumes IMO, regardless of what they say publicly.

Not an attorney.....perhaps the WSI members who are more familiar with the law will weigh in on this.....but for what it's worth.

As far as possible civil actions with regard to libel and slander, I imagine nothing will happen until at least the book is made available to the public. However, when that time comes, my guess will be that any attorney representing players named in the book will advise them to sit tight, keep their mouth shut, and wait for most of the storm to blow over. Thereby letting time work against Jose Canseco who obviously has a reputation for being one of dullest "knives in the drawer".

Canseco has apparently made a lot of accusations against several ball players. IMO, anyone attempting to win a libel suit would have to prove that Canseco has fabricated either all or a certain part of the story.

What's a player to do who was mentioned for several specific acts? "I'll sue for this reason and that one because they are lies, but I won't sue for this other thing he said." What kind of implication does that leave on the minds of the general public? Furthermore, if you're going to go to the expense of suing someone to save your reputation, don't you have to win? What happens if you lose?

My guess is that anyone implicated in Canseco's book will be advised to do nothing and it will be left to each of us to decide how much truth there is to what he wrote.

Problem is.....what the hell can we do with that stuff after we make up our mind? I made up my mind about it several years ago and with the exception of looking at athletes with a bit more cynicism.....I'm still a fan of the game.

And yeah....it pisses me off sometimes that I still am.

AZChiSoxFan
02-09-2005, 12:32 PM
I agree. That's why I'm not willing to believe Canseco's allegations just yet. Yes, I believe steroids was a problem while he was playing. Yes, his allegations could prove to be right on the money. But until a more reliable person comes forward to back up his claims, I just have a hard time believing him. I'm not willing to throw everyone under the bus just yet.

The interesting thing is that we now have 3 former MVP's (Canseco, Caminiti, and Giambi) who have admitted to using steroids. Combine that with the obvious increased physical stature of several players and it would be totally naive to believe lots of players aren't involved. I understand that Canseco is not the world's most credible source, but the fact that he got somebody to publish the book and stand behind it does add something to the credibility of the book, IMO. By the way, I totally agree that it is hypocritical for people to hate Bonds and accuse him of using the juice and at the same time, love McGwire and give him a free pass.

chaz171
02-09-2005, 12:35 PM
Can anyone Say Libel Suit?

spawn
02-09-2005, 12:40 PM
The interesting thing is that we now have 3 former MVP's (Canseco, Caminiti, and Giambi) who have admitted to using steroids. Combine that with the obvious increased physical stature of several players and it would be totally naive to believe lots of players aren't involved. I understand that Canseco is not the world's most credible source, but the fact that he got somebody to publish the book and stand behind it does add something to the credibility of the book, IMO. By the way, I totally agree that it is hypocritical for people to hate Bonds and accuse him of using the juice and at the same time, love McGwire and give him a free pass.
Correction: it's 3 former and MVP's and 1 current (Bonds).:D:

Nick@Nite
02-09-2005, 12:41 PM
Someone brought this up on the radio this morning... the problem with having a libel case is they have to have incontrovertable proof to the contrary. Essentially, these guys would have to have negative steriod tests from, what, every week/month for the period in question. Further, then they have to prove that Canseco and the publisher published these falsehoods maliciously.

This morning, Roger Cossack on ESPN radio pointed out that because the publisher isn't some podunked company weighs heavily toward Canseco's credibility. HarperCollins Publishers wouldn't put something out that would be a libel slam dunk.

JoseCanseco6969
02-09-2005, 12:52 PM
I'm gonna wait till I read the book personally to make my judgements, but I never thought of the big mac thing as a racist deal, but it just might be that. But the argument I can think of against that is that the Bonds backlash had a lot to do with him being such a miserable ass. Mac was a nice guy and didnt seem to have much ill will throughout baseball. But my money for now would be that all that have been named did roids and I hope that these people are exposed because steroid have become a huge problem in all of sports, even in entertainment with WWE. These weird early deaths of wrestlers I grew up watching in the 80's and early 90's are dropping like flies, coincidence? I think not.

By the way, just curious, anyone here buying the book or already pre-ordered it??? and no jokes about me being jose, ive heard them all, hehe.

Nick@Nite
02-09-2005, 01:00 PM
By the way, just curious, anyone here buying the book or already pre-ordered it??? and no jokes about me being jose, ive heard them all, hehe.

I will check it out while sitting on the couch at B & N. I probably won't buy it though. My mind was made up years ago as to whether MLB players were using illegal drugs.

MUsoxfan
02-09-2005, 01:05 PM
I will check it out while sitting on the couch at B & N. I probably won't buy it though. My mind was made up years ago as to whether MLB players were using illegal drugs.

There's just something about the revelation that Canseco shot 'roids into McGwire's bare ass in the bathroom stall that makes me wonder what else Canseco has to say. I just know that Canseco has nothing to lose, so this will be a great tell-all book.

Nick@Nite
02-09-2005, 01:07 PM
There's just something about the revelation that Canseco shot 'roids into McGwire's bare ass in the bathroom stall that makes me wonder what else Canseco has to say. I just know that Canseco has nothing to lose, so this will be a great tell-all book.

I agree but I'm just damn cheap to buy it. :D:

D. TODD
02-09-2005, 01:41 PM
So you don't think people should be throwing names around, then insinuate something about PK? Sorry, but that's the biggest pile of crap I've read in some time. I used PK as an example of the endless names that could be and are open for speculation. It is obvious that many have at least dabbled in roids, but to pick and choose who we think did is pointless.

gosox41
02-09-2005, 01:43 PM
If McGwire, Rodriguez, and Palmeiro don't sue for libel, it will speak volumes IMO, regardless of what they say publicly.

I'm no lawyer, but have heard it is difficult to win a libel case. The hurt parties need to show damages that they suffered as a result of the comments. Plus for some players (specificaly McGwire) there have been doubts about how he got so bigto begin with. If Jose say him shoot up (or shot him up) wouldn't he just be a witness to callobrate the story?


Bob

TheBull19
02-09-2005, 02:07 PM
Plus for some players (specificaly McGwire) there have been doubts about how he got so bigto begin with. If Jose say him shoot up (or shot him up) wouldn't he just be a witness to callobrate the story?


Bob

Didn't McQwire admit to using steroids, just ones that were at the time legal?

Nick@Nite
02-09-2005, 02:14 PM
Didn't McQwire admit to using steroids, just ones that were at the time legal?

Big Mac was supposedly using androsteione(sp?) I'm not familiar with andro, but I heard it's a steroid precursor, whatever that means.

Flight #24
02-09-2005, 02:20 PM
Big Mac was supposedly using androsteione(sp?) I'm not familiar with andro, but I heard it's a steroid precursor, whatever that means.

Precursor = a drug that while itself is not a steroid, breaks down into one in the body.

So while you can say "I didn't TAKE" steroids, they still ended up in your body with the standard effects. I don't think it's a stretch that a guy who'd take andro would take the actual thing.

TheBull19
02-09-2005, 02:22 PM
Big Mac was supposedly using androsteione(sp?) I'm not familiar with andro, but I heard it's a steroid precursor, whatever that means.

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/8495E8093D9873FE85256F9300474D56?opendocument

According to this site a ban by the federal government as an anabolic steroid took effect in jan/2005.

Nick@Nite
02-09-2005, 05:10 PM
Eric Kuselias on ESPN radio just said Canseco will appear on 60 minutes... the circus-maximus is alive and well! :cool:

batmanZoSo
02-09-2005, 05:28 PM
Fortunately I neither looked up to nor rooted for any of these jerks.

This stuff makes Frank's accomplishments all the more respectable--to have done it without roids. I often wondered in the past why such a big guy never won a home run title, smashed 56 homers or chased Roger Maris, while all these other guys--Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, etc--were doing it. And now I know.

Homer J Simpson
02-10-2005, 01:04 PM
Hey White Sox Bill, sorry it's taken a long time to reply, but yeh, I remember those promoters! Small world! I was an NPC guy because I would do better in a weight class rather than a hight class. The Mr. Indiana University show (88) was a AAU event, and I gave up 50lbs. to the heaviest guy in the hight class! And yup, there were only a few bodybuilders that even went to IU. I won my class and lost the overall to a student from Purdue. And then there is always that big Californian dude who can ruin your day. And yeah, he kept me from a Mr. Midwest title. The judges have no sense of geography.

How many times did you compete, Bill? Any favorite memories? I trained for years with the late Pete Kutsagarous (Mr USA, Mr Universe) and that was a challenge. He was a lightheavy weight, and I was a lightwieght - and Pete made me use his wieghts. Another special time was relaxing backstage at the Mr. Illinois (88) with the guest poser, Glaydes Portuguese. She was gorgeous, smart.... and I helped her put stickem on her posing suit! I have not washed my hands since then. Once I had trained with Eddie Cohen while he was the strongest man in the world, at his gym. It was brutal.

Sorry to bore you guys.

Jaffar
02-10-2005, 04:14 PM
ESPN's Pedro Gomez was on Mike & Mike this morning and said Canseco told him in the late 90's that he will release a tell all book after he retires and it will blow the pants off MLB. Canseco will be on 60 minutes Sunday and Pedro has an exclusive with him on Tuesday. All of the sportwriters and announcers that are saying Canseco is a Media Hungry, attention getting liar need to wake up and realize he is on the record talking about this book since before he retired. Even Dan Patrick mentioned how Canseco told him about his tell all, naming names book about 5 years ago. I am excited the release moved up a week to the 14th(valentines day for all guys who forgot) because I am very excited to read it.

ps. I am wanting to tailgate on opening day and was hoping to meet up with people to get ready for a great year as a Sox fan(oh yeah, I'm an optomistic).

Unregistered
02-10-2005, 07:17 PM
Now according to Boston Dirt Dogs, Canseco is naming Nomar Garciaparra as a steroid user... No wonder he had so many nice things to say about Shammy... :cool:

Jabroni
02-10-2005, 07:32 PM
Now according to Boston Dirt Dogs, Canseco is naming Nomar Garciaparra as a steroid user... No wonder he had so many nice things to say about Shammy... :cool:Interesting. Here's the link...

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/2005/02/nomar_garciapar_1.html

NSSoxFan
02-10-2005, 07:35 PM
Interesting. Here's the link...

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/2005/02/nomar_garciapar_1.html

ESPN 1000 is also reporting this...

Nick@Nite
02-10-2005, 07:58 PM
Now according to Boston Dirt Dogs, Canseco is naming Nomar Garciaparra as a steroid user... No wonder he had so many nice things to say about Shammy... :cool:

I'm part of the crowd that thinks most MLB players (pitchers too) have been using steroids for a long, long time. People can call me cynical, negative or whatever, but I've always guessed these guys have been juiced since the early-mid 80's (at least).

Now Nomar is part of Canseco's circus-maximus. But wait! Mr. Hamm doesn't look all 'roided up! He's just a SS who isn't weighing in at a bloated 235lbs?

I'm more disgusted with MLB's hypocrisy toward drugs than the revelations of one sorry individual blatantly trying to sell books. MLB & the players have sidestepped steroid question for so long it's ridiculous. Just the mere fact MLB banned steroids recently despite being illegal in this country without a prescription since 1990 is pathetic.

:tomatoaward

daveeym
02-10-2005, 09:58 PM
I'm part of the crowd that thinks most MLB players (pitchers too) have been using steroids for a long, long time. People can call me cynical, negative or whatever, but I've always guessed these guys have been juiced since the early-mid 80's (at least).

Now Nomar is part of Canseco's circus-maximus. But wait! Mr. Hamm doesn't look all 'roided up! He's just a SS who isn't weighing in at a bloated 235lbs.

I'm more disgusted with the MLB's hypocrisy to toward drugs than the revelations of one sorry individual blatantly trying to sell books. Players have sidestepped steroid questions for so long it's ridiculous. Just the mere fact MLB banned steroids recently despite being illegal in this country without a prescription since 1990 is pathetic. When i was playing ball in college, every guy that got drafted or signed to the minors came back and said 50% plus in the minors were using it and if you weren't one that was using you stood almost no chance at making it particularly for position players.

Rocklive99
02-11-2005, 04:21 PM
According to ESPNEWS, more excerpts in the NY Daily News and all they said was Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens, and Barry Bonds were mentioned, but no proof was given, but what was exactly written wasn't said.

They also showed a clip from 60 minutes Sunday where Canseco is saying injected McGwire in the butt at least twice for sure

Nick@Nite
02-11-2005, 04:26 PM
ESPN radio keeps playing an audio blurp from the 60 Minutes interview that will
air this Sunday. Canseco sounds like a total lightweight compared to Mike Wallace.

Rocklive99
02-11-2005, 04:30 PM
I might have to visit the library for this, I wonder if there are any Sox player mentions since he played for us for a little.

Ol' No. 2
02-11-2005, 04:31 PM
According to ESPNEWS, more excerpts in the NY Daily News and all they said was Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens, and Barry Bonds were mentioned, but no proof was given, but what was exactly written wasn't said.

They also showed a clip from 60 minutes Sunday where Canseco is saying injected McGwire in the butt at least twice for sureHeading downhill....picking up speed....

daveeym
02-11-2005, 04:56 PM
The problem with steroids is so deeply ingrained in the sport and goes much further than the lack of a steroid policy and it's never been talked about or analyzed as far as I know. It starts with the draft. Baseball is the one sport (and don't say basketball cuz the numbers don't even come close to making them similar) that players can be drafted without attending college. On top of this there's 40-60 rounds of the draft putting even a greater number of players into this situation every year than all professional sports combined. But basically you have thousands of kids every year being thrust into the minors (and even the independant leagues) that are coming straight out of high school, from Latin America, the nations farm belt etc. that are being told and shown that this is your money ticket, if you take steroids you'll make millions of dollars, can take your family off the streets of the dominican republic, be a hero to and make your countryman's lives better (if latin american) etc. etc. etc. For the American's it's all the same but a different pressure of I now gave up going to college, I have to make it or i'll be selling fries, or I couldn't have gone to college so I need to make it etc. Then guys like bonds that have a legacy to live up to see joe schmo on roids starting to out do them, and the "hell no, that's not gonna happen" competitive drive kicks in on them. While any sport is player driven and that's where the **** is gonna hit the fan, the problem was created and perpetuated by the owners, mlb and mlbpa.

With canseco's story coming out everyone keeps looking for the lawsuits to start flying over libel etc. I'm waiting for the first lawsuit by a player or players against a professional sports team, league or players association to happen.

Nick@Nite
02-11-2005, 05:28 PM
The problem with steroids is so deeply ingrained in the sport and goes much further than the lack of a steroid policy and it's never been talked about or analyzed as far as I know. It starts with the draft. Baseball is the one sport (and don't say basketball cuz the numbers don't even come close to making them similar) that players can be drafted without attending college. On top of this there's 40-60 rounds of the draft putting even a greater number of players into this situation every year than all professional sports combined. But basically you have thousands of kids every year being thrust into the minors (and even the independant leagues) that are coming straight out of high school, from Latin America, the nations farm belt etc. that are being told and shown that this is your money ticket, if you take steroids you'll make millions of dollars, can take your family off the streets of the dominican republic, be a hero to and make your countryman's lives better (if latin american) etc. etc. etc. For the American's it's all the same but a different pressure of I now gave up going to college, I have to make it or i'll be selling fries, or I couldn't have gone to college so I need to make it etc. Then guys like bonds that have a legacy to live up to see joe schmo on roids starting to out do them, and the "hell no, that's not gonna happen" competitive drive kicks in on them. While any sport is player driven and that's where the **** is gonna hit the fan, the problem was created and perpetuated by the owners, mlb and mlbpa.

With canseco's story coming out everyone keeps looking for the lawsuits to start flying over libel etc. I'm waiting for the first lawsuit by a player or players against a professional sports team, league or players association to happen.

Nice post. I agree with the general premise of what you're saying, but I have a couple questions;

1. I thought the minor leagues had a steroid policy in place for quite some time?

2. Is your scenario about a player suing a team, league, or players association because a player could claim being disadvantaged in comparison to his juiced peers (and condoned by the team) to maintain a living in proprotion to his talents?

daveeym
02-11-2005, 05:36 PM
Nice post. I agree with the general premise of what you're saying, but I have a couple questions;

1. I thought the minor leagues had a steroid policy in place for quite some time?

2. Is your scenario about a player suing a team, league, or players association because a player could claim being disadvantaged in comparison to his juiced peers (and condoned by the team) to maintain a living in proprotion to his talents? The minor league policy is almost as big of a joke as the major league policy from what i hear. While they may have stricter guidelines and penalties I highly doubt the money, technology and effort was put behind it to give it teeth. Look how hard it is for something like the IFOC to enforce and they allegedly "try" to strictly enforce their rules.

2. I was thinking actually more along the lines of any of the associations being negligent, unofficially condoning it, complicit in the use of steroids that would effect the players well being. Potentially players filing the suits, or even families of deceased players that can link steroid use to their deaths. But the way lawsuits occur you're theory is as good as anyone's guess on what possible suits could occur.

I'd imagine that at some time and place in football, baseball or another league it could be shown that steroids where supplied by team trainers. The NU death over the ephidrine use and the lawsuit that stemmed from that is just an example.

Nick@Nite
02-11-2005, 05:51 PM
I'd imagine that at some time and place in football, baseball or another league it could be shown that steroids where supplied by team trainers. The NU death over the ephidrine use and the lawsuit that stemmed from that is just an example.

Yeah, I can see that happening eventually, but when? ... 2 years from now? ... 10 years? ...

With all the pharmaceuticals out there, I'm surprised more athletes don't keel over dead. Too me, Lyle Alzado wasn't all that long ago.

daveeym
02-11-2005, 07:11 PM
Yeah, I can see that happening eventually, but when? ... 2 years from now? ... 10 years? ...

With all the pharmaceuticals out there, I'm surprised more athletes don't keel over dead. Too me, Lyle Alzado wasn't all that long ago. I hear ya, Alzado seems like just yesterday to me also. The problem is it takes years for roids to kill em and there's not that many large studies on it. Combined with players saying hey it ultimately was my choice, i made a lot of money from it and i don't want to ruin my legacy/appear like a cheater. Real sticky situation these guys get themselves into/ pushed into as we're seeing right now with Canseco. Just as many people think he's a moron and a liar as believe he's telling the truth. He's an attention grabbing whore but I bet about 90% plus of what he's saying is the truth. Others our spreading false rumors and it's getting blamed on canseco. It's a game of politics at this point, not about the truth.

charlotteknights
02-11-2005, 07:27 PM
I am good friends with the clubhouse manager in Charlotte and when Canseco was here trying to make his "comeback" in baseball, he never gave a spread to the guys there and could barely make it around the field for his warm up run. He also bolted not paying his clubhouse dues which is the number one sin, especially in the minors. When he came back to Charlotte for a radio interview about a year later, he didn't even remember ever having played for the Knights. He needs to worry about himself. Buy hey, misery loves company.....:angry:

samram
02-11-2005, 07:33 PM
I am good friends with the clubhouse manager in Charlotte and when Canseco was here trying to make his "comeback" in baseball, he never gave a spread to the guys there and could barely make it around the field for his warm up run. He also bolted not paying his clubhouse dues which is the number one sin, especially in the minors. When he came back to Charlotte for a radio interview about a year later, he didn't even remember ever having played for the Knights. He needs to worry about himself. Buy hey, misery loves company.....:angry:

Yeah, Jose was always known as a prima donna.

By the way, welcome aboard. I think that makes two of us in the Queen City.:welcome:

psyclonis
02-11-2005, 07:48 PM
http://nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/279973p-239878c.html

Nick@Nite
02-11-2005, 08:03 PM
I hear ya, Alzado seems like just yesterday to me also. The problem is it takes years for roids to kill em and there's not that many large studies on it. Combined with players saying hey it ultimately was my choice, i made a lot of money from it and i don't want to ruin my legacy/appear like a cheater. Real sticky situation these guys get themselves into/ pushed into as we're seeing right now with Canseco. Just as many people think he's a moron and a liar as believe he's telling the truth. He's an attention grabbing whore but I bet about 90% plus of what he's saying is the truth. Others our spreading false rumors and it's getting blamed on canseco. It's a game of politics at this point, not about the truth.

Your comment on there not being many large studies on steroids is so right on that it makes me wonder why MLB doesn't simply adhere to federal laws pertaining to all drugs. That in itself would have kept things like BALCO from happening in the first place, or at the very least made it easier for MLB to exercise damage control. My rhetorical question is... what would the MLBPA have done back in 1990/91, fought against the government decision that made possesion/use of steroids without a prescription illegal?

Btw, does anyone remember the quote Alzado had on the SI cover that showed his face all emaciated while wearing a doo-rag? I do... it was Lyle saying "I Lied". What was he lying about? Alzado was coming clean about the use of HGH, iirc. When did he die? ... 1992? What year is it now?

Canseco was just as much a liar back in the day as todays players lying about drugs. But because Canseco appears to have very few powerful or influential friends (if any) to watch his back, he will get dumped on by anyone and everyone wanting to sweep the steroid issue under the rug and keep things the way they are.

I believe he is telling the truth, spiked with a little embellishment. The problem with Canseco is he seems to be a terrible story teller. That will give his enemies ammunition to attack his credibility.

Eventually, the truth with come out... might be next week or many years from now. How ironic would it be for everything to blow over except for the labels affixed to Canseco's already tarnished image. Then only to find out that the allegations were not only true, but steroids were more prevalent anyone imagined.

misty60481
02-11-2005, 08:26 PM
Is Conseco still on the juice,it looks like the others who quit shrunk to half there original size---he still looks pumped up....

ChiWhiteSox1337
02-11-2005, 08:31 PM
But again, he writes, he remembers "thinking" that Sosa's body changed more dramatically that McGwire's did before the home run summer of 1998. "It seemed so obvious, it was a joke," Canseco writes.

Wow....I wish I could release a book about players who I think are or were juicing, although I'd have to agree with the part about Sosa. :D:

Nick@Nite
02-11-2005, 08:41 PM
http://nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/279973p-239878c.html

A few thoughts... excerpts are in blue;

Randy Hendricks, one of Clemens' agents, responded angrily today, telling the Daily News: "Neither Roger nor I have seen the book, but any such suggestion is absurd on its face. It's a wonder Canseco didn't name the Pope, given he named President Bush. Roger has not taken any illegal drugs or substances. He has passed all tests and will continue to do so in 2005. In 2004, with stricter testing, he passed the tests and won a record 7th Cy Young Award."

Canseco has yet to finger the Pope? Give him time, February still has 3 weeks left in it. Nothing against Rajah, but the "has not taken illegal drugs or substances" and "with stricter testing, he passed the [drug] tests" blasts carry little weight with me. Greenies are not banned by MLB, but a componet of them [ephedra] is banned banned by the federal government. Therefore, Clemens could be using them. Steroids? See my take on post #114. HGH? ... not touched with 10-foot pole by MLB.

"I don't know Sammy Sosa personally," he writes, "so I can't say for a fact that he ever took steroids." But again, he writes, he remembers "thinking" that Sosa's body changed more dramatically that McGwire's did before the home run summer of 1998. "It seemed so obvious, it was a joke," Canseco writes.

Am I going out on a limb if I say that everyone here agrees with that blast?

He also says he injected pitcher Wilson Alvarez and outfielder Dave Martinez when they were teammates in Tampa.

Two ex-Sox players... I wish Canseco had gotten hold of Chris Sabo.

Clemens spoke to the Daily News about steroids and related subjects in June, denying at the time he had done anything illegal to develop his physique.

BoSox fans would disagree. Before Rajah fled to Canada, his reputation at the time was not working hard in the off-season. I read that it pissed off BoSox fans that Clemens got his big ass back into shape, and staying in shape, while winning Cy Young awards again.

daveeym
02-11-2005, 08:56 PM
Your comment on there not being many large studies on steroids is so right on that it makes me wonder why MLB doesn't simply adhere to federal laws pertaining to all drugs. That in itself would have kept things like BALCO from happening in the first place, or at the very least made it easier for MLB to exercise damage control. My rhetorical question is... what would the MLBPA have done back in 1990/91, fought against the government decision that made possesion/use of steroids without a prescription illegal?

Technically that was their policy back then and the players then would undergo counseling as if they tested positive for cocaine. That's why it's a crock when people try to say it was legal in MLB. No it was illegal in MLB, there just wasn't a whole system put into use to police steroids.

Jabroni
02-11-2005, 09:06 PM
He also says he injected pitcher Wilson Alvarez and outfielder Dave Martinez when they were teammates in Tampa.This is why I would tend to believe Canseco. Why would he lie about injecting Wilson Alvarez and Dave Martinez? They aren't exactly top players. Dave Martinez played until he was 37 and Wilson Alvarez is still pitching at 35. Remember that steroids can help players heal from injuries much quicker and prolong their careers.

Jabroni
02-12-2005, 03:53 AM
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?leaguenum=&sport=MLB&id=4344Latest News Feb. 12, 2005 - 3:25 am et

In addition to Mark McGwire, Ivan Rodriguez, Rafael Palmeiro and Juan Gonzalez, Jose Canseco suggested that Sammy Sosa, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Bret Boone, Wilson Alvarez and Tony Saunders were steroid users in his book.
A report that Nomar Garciaparra was named in the book seems to be incorrect. Canseco doesn't claim to have witnessed Sosa, Clemens, Bonds, Tejada or Boone doing steroids, but he named them anyway. He said he injected Alvarez and Dave Martinez when they were teammates in Tampa.

Source: New York Daily News (http://nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/279973p-239878c.html)Tony Saunders (http://baseball-reference.com/s/saundto01.shtml) is the pitcher who broke his arm twice while throwing pitches. He just signed a minor league contract with the Orioles.

daveeym
02-12-2005, 09:09 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1989654 What a ridiculous response by Alderson and MLB. I'm not expecting them to say, hey we'll look into it asap, and I know Canseco and McGwire were on his watch at Oakland, but come on. These statements make it look like MLB is saying they don't have a steroid problem and none of these guys were on steroids WHEN WE ALREADY KNOW BONDS AND GIAMBI WERE.

Also, Anyone hear Dan Patrick talking to David Justice yesterday? Justice was pretty brutal and was indirectly calling out bonds and a bunch of others.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2005, 09:24 AM
What a ridiculous response by Alderson and MLB. I'm not expecting them to say, hey we'll look into it asap, and I know Canseco and McGwire were on his watch at Oakland, but come on. These statements make it look like MLB is saying they don't have a steroid problem and none of these guys were on steroids WHEN WE ALREADY KNOW BONDS AND GIAMBI WERE.


Omigod... they're in complete denial. Alderson must have spent the last 2 months in outer space to make such a demented comment.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, folks... it will get much much worse. You only need to read what Selig and Alderson are saying to know just how bad it is going to get.

MLB isn't trying to get ahead of this scandal. For chrissakes the Commissioner's Office is still pretending like the ****ing scandal doesn't exist! They haven't even gotten beyond the denial stage.

Idiots... absolute ****ing idiots... Selig is going down.

daveeym
02-12-2005, 01:00 PM
Omigod... they're in complete denial. Alderson must have spent the last 2 months in outer space to make such a demented comment.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, folks... it will get much much worse. You only need to read what Selig and Alderson are saying to know just how bad it is going to get.

MLB isn't trying to get ahead of this scandal. For chrissakes the Commissioner's Office is still pretending like the ****ing scandal doesn't exist! They haven't even gotten beyond the denial stage.

Idiots... absolute ****ing idiots... Selig is going down. No kidding, I mean come on, how about a no-comment, or just blow off Canseco, but to basically give all of them a blaket pass and vote of confidence is ridiculous. Alderson needs to go back and take PR 101 again. I almost feel like he made this to cover his own ass since he was at Oakland during all of Canseco's "moments" and MLB should be looking at having this clown resign.

Ol' No. 2
02-12-2005, 01:22 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1989654 What a ridiculous response by Alderson and MLB. I'm not expecting them to say, hey we'll look into it asap, and I know Canseco and McGwire were on his watch at Oakland, but come on. These statements make it look like MLB is saying they don't have a steroid problem and none of these guys were on steroids WHEN WE ALREADY KNOW BONDS AND GIAMBI WERE.

Also, Anyone hear Dan Patrick talking to David Justice yesterday? Justice was pretty brutal and was indirectly calling out bonds and a bunch of others.UN-****ING-BELIEVABLE. There's plenty of blame to go around here, folks, and IMO, if Selig goes down, a few big trees at the MBLPA will go with him. Canseco is right on in this statement:

On the players' association: "I believe that plenty of people within the Players Association must have known exactly which players were on steroids. And they did not care. If all you care about is hiking up players' salaries, why would you try to stop the steroid groundswell? Don't rock the boat. Think about it this way: If Don Fehr really believed that his players weren't doing steroids, wouldn't he have said: Okay, let a true drug testing program begin? Nothing like the joke we had during the 2004 season, for example."
No one is going to convince me that nobody knew. With the scale on which this went on you'd have to be completely out to lunch to not have noticed. That includes managers, coaches and other players. But no one would violate the code of silence. Well, the silence is pretty much broken now.

SoxEd
02-12-2005, 02:02 PM
The really frustrating thing about the game's steroid problem is its extent - if Canseco's claims about the percentage of MLB players 'using' are even half true, then to get steroids out of the sport is going to take a real long time.

If Canseco is telling the truth, and MLB were to institute a rigorous testing programme right now ( la IAAF), then they'd wipe out a huge number of currrent players and destroy the sport.

I think that the only practicable solution is to state that rigorous testing will commence on date 'x', and that any player failing a test after that date will face severe penalties. Obviously, date 'x' has to be set far enough in the future for any current players who are juiced up to get the crap out of their system and adjust to playing without it.

IIRC, that is what happened last year, although the suggested testing/punishment regime has way too few teeth.

I really want drugs out of Baseball*, and I think that the drug issue should be central to the arrangements with MLBPA for the new players' agreement in 06.


*I am not so naive that I don't know that there will always be chemists coming up with new, undetectable, drugs to enhance performance, I just hope that the ethos of drug use in sport becomes thoroughly unacceptable, in the way that DUI has on public roads.

darklord23
02-12-2005, 03:02 PM
i should go pick up this book tomorrow

Fenway
02-12-2005, 03:32 PM
more from Jose

http://www.nydailynews.com/images/heads/rope0212.jpg (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/280146p-240068c.html)

JoseCanseco6969
02-12-2005, 05:01 PM
more from Jose

http://www.nydailynews.com/images/heads/rope0212.jpg (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/280146p-240068c.html)
"Canseco says he injected pitcher Wilson Alvarez and outfielder Dave Martinez when they were teammates in Tampa. He writes that Tampa pitcher Tony Saunders, who made national news when his arm snapped in mid-pitch during a game, abused steroids. Alvarez's agent, Jaime Torres, told the Daily News Canseco's allegations are not true; reps for the other players did not return phone calls. "

Good ol Wilson Alvarez...at least it wasnt when he was here. I wonder if he talks about players with the Sox in here, hopefully not. Cant wait to read it!

Nick@Nite
02-12-2005, 08:48 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1989654 What a ridiculous response by Alderson and MLB. I'm not expecting them to say, hey we'll look into it asap, and I know Canseco and McGwire were on his watch at Oakland, but come on. These statements make it look like MLB is saying they don't have a steroid problem and none of these guys were on steroids WHEN WE ALREADY KNOW BONDS AND GIAMBI WERE.

Also, Anyone hear Dan Patrick talking to David Justice yesterday? Justice was pretty brutal and was indirectly calling out bonds and a bunch of others.

Omigod... they're in complete denial. Alderson must have spent the last 2 months in outer space to make such a demented comment.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, folks... it will get much much worse. You only need to read what Selig and Alderson are saying to know just how bad it is going to get.

MLB isn't trying to get ahead of this scandal. For chrissakes the Commissioner's Office is still pretending like the ****ing scandal doesn't exist! They haven't even gotten beyond the denial stage.

Idiots... absolute ****ing idiots... Selig is going down. .

Alderson's statements [at the conivvance of Selig] are nothing but pre-damage control considering the 60 Minutes interview is tomorrow. I'm guessing that Selig is banking on Canseco looking like a goof ball during the interview in contrast with Mike Wallace. If that happens, Alderson's comments will resonate with sheep who want to believe MLB isn't tainted with 'roids to the 1000th degree.

OTOH, if the sheep believe Canseco, the whole thing will blow sky high like Krakatoa x 1000.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-12-2005, 09:21 PM
I'm not going to downplay the importance of McGwire's fellow Bash Bro, Jose Canseco, to this budding scandal. He has definitely been an important catalyst for creating the sort of headlines that keep driving the story forward in the media. I'm also under no false illusions about his motives. He is strictly in it for himself (big surprise there, right?) and figures to make a few spare nickels and dimes ratting out everyone else.

However anyone suggesting this scandal is basically a Jose Canseco scandal is even more delusional than Sandy Alderson and Bud Selig. Canseco is hardly more significant than a pimple on a gorilla's ass for how big this story is likely to become.

Hell, not even the BALCO grand jury has begun to scratch the surface of all the potential cheats in baseball. Bonds and Giambi are the only two trapped so far. The single-biggest juicer of them all hasn't been touched at all: Sosa!

Do you people have any idea how much dirt is going to fly about that cheat? I'm beginning to truly wonder because some of the posts around here are beyond ridiculous. The Cheat just got traded! There is a whole clubhouse filled with ex-teammates (one of them busted his boom box) just waiting to spill their guts about him. And let's not forget it was the Cubune that showed the videotape of Sosa leaving the ballpark early just to catch him in a lie. These are the same people who made the barrel end of his corked bat mysteriously disappear just two years ago!

GET A ****ING CLUE!!!!

Do you have any idea how many potential stories can be dug up in a third world pisshole the size of Santo Domingo with nothing more than a few thousand dollars U.S. and a handful of American visas and work permits? That cheating ****er is going down as soon as the hounds finally start sniffing...

You think this scandal is going away after opening day and Canseco is done selling his book??? In your wettest most delusional dreams...

:tool
"Make that MY wettest most delusional dreams."

Nick@Nite
02-12-2005, 09:43 PM
I'm not going to downplay the importance of McGwire's fellow Bash Bro, Jose Canseco, to this budding scandal. He has definitely been an important catalyst for creating the sort of headlines that keep driving the story forward in the media. I'm also under no false illusions about his motives. He is strictly in it for himself (big surprise there, right?) and figures to make a few spare nickels and dimes ratting out everyone else.

With me, you're preaching to choir... but what about the court of public opinion? I have a bad feeling that Canseco will come across like a lightweight with no credibility tomorrow night with old & crusty Mike Wallace asking the questions. If that happens, the lay-person will simply believe the MLB propaganda spewed forth by Selig & his BB-cronies.

I want this thing explode. I want all the drug using frauds, regardless of who they are & what teams they play for, to get exposed.

Ol' No. 2
02-12-2005, 09:49 PM
I'm not going to downplay the importance of McGwire's fellow Bash Bro, Jose Canseco, to this budding scandal. He has definitely been an important catalyst for creating the sort of headlines that keep driving the story forward in the media. I'm also under no false illusions about his motives. He is strictly in it for himself (big surprise there, right?) and figures to make a few spare nickels and dimes ratting out everyone else.

However anyone suggesting this scandal is basically a Jose Canseco scandal is even more delusional than Sandy Alderson and Bud Selig. Canseco is hardly more significant than a pimple on a gorilla's ass for how big this story is likely to become.

Hell, not even the BALCO grand jury has begun to scratch the surface of all the potential cheats in baseball. Bonds and Giambi are the only two trapped so far. The single-biggest juicer of them all hasn't been touched at all: Sosa!

Do you people have any idea how much dirt is going to fly about that cheat? I'm beginning to truly wonder because some of the posts around here are beyond ridiculous. The Cheat just got traded! There is a whole clubhouse filled with ex-teammates (one of them busted his boom box) just waiting to spill their guts about him. And let's not forget it was the Cubune that showed the videotape of Sosa leaving the ballpark early just to catch him in a lie. These are the same people who made the barrel end of his corked bat mysteriously disappear just two years ago!

GET A ****ING CLUE!!!!

Do you have any idea how many potential stories can be dug up in a third world pisshole the size of Santo Domingo with nothing more than a few thousand dollars U.S. and a handful of American visas and work permits? That cheating ****er is going down as soon as the hounds finally start sniffing...

You think this scandal is going away after opening day and Canseco is done selling his book??? In your wettest most delusional dreams...

:tool
"Make that MY wettest most delusional dreams."I hope you're right, George. As much as it will hurt the game, the only way this mess gets cleaned up is if it becomes a huge scandal. Otherwise, they'll continue with the fig leaf of a testing program and nothing will change.

But I wouldn't count on players ratting out other players. Maybe Sosa's ex-teammates don't like him much, but they also know that if this blows up, a lot of other players they do like are going to go down with him. That's why they've maintained the code of silence this long - and I don't see them breaking it that easily. I think it's a lot more likely they'll close ranks than start pointing fingers. Nor do I see the Cubune being in much of a hurry for this to become a big scandal that would hit them in the pocketbook.

If this reaches a crisis, it's going to have to be from information gained from outside. Snooping reporters. Another grand jury. Something like that. If someone doesn't come up with something to corroborate Canseco's stories, all that's left is Bonds and Giambi. Can't have much of a witch hunt with only two witches.

Like I said, I hope you're right. But I've seen people throw blankets over bigger scandals than this.

Ol' No. 2
02-12-2005, 09:52 PM
With me, you're preaching to choir... but what about the court of public opinion? I have a bad feeling that Canseco will come across like a lightweight with no credibility tomorrow night with old & crusty Mike Wallace asking the questions. If that happens, the lay-person will simply believe the MLB propaganda spewed forth by Selig & his BB-cronies.

I want this thing explode. I want all the drug using frauds, regardless of who they are & what teams they play for, to get exposed.Remember, the producers have a lot of ability to control how Canseco comes off, i.e. the way they shoot, the type of questions asked, what gets cut out and what gets shown. They have every incentive to have him look believable (fodder for a dozen more stories) and no incentive to have him look like a boob.

Norberto7
02-12-2005, 10:37 PM
I might be in the severe minority here, but my reaction to the Canseco allegations is a shrug. I just don't care. Even if the statements are true, so what? I don't know why I should be shocked. I don't delude myself into thinking that all these ballplayers are model citizens, so I'm rarely surprised when it becomes apparent that certain players are revealed to be a criminal, a liar, a cheat, etc.

These allegations are fodder for the media, so they can write more columns full of mock indignation. Frankly, I don't find this to be that much of an outrage.

I'm in your severe minority. I just get the feeling that this really isn't going to blow up like many think it will, kind of like the predicted blizzard that leaves 2 inches. Nobody but the naive can profess themselves surprised, and if they didn't care before, why care so much more now? Personally I'd like to see the steroid users gone and their records removed, but I'd be far more surprised to see this happen than it not.

Cubbiesuck13
02-13-2005, 12:19 AM
Blame whoever you want for the (lack of) action taken by MLB but also spread it about the fans. We support their choices with our money. Everyone here is pretty much in agreement that some players are on the juice yet we watch the games and we spend money on hats and jerseys. We faithfully pull for our team while spending money supporting it. In doing so we are saying the same thing that MLB is. "We are not going to take any action" If you really feel that strongly about Selig being too greedy to punish anyone or you think that the Players association turn a blind eye to anything that makes the players more moeny then boycott the games. That's the only way anything will be done about it. I want a clean, fair and balanced game but am not willing to take make a statement with my money because I enjoy the game too much to stay away from. If they keep this up, however, it may be a different story. In my eyes, this could get way worse than the strike did in relation to pissing of the fans. And college baseball is looking better and better every day the MLB stands by and lets this crap keep going.

Nick@Nite
02-13-2005, 08:12 AM
Blame whoever you want for the (lack of) action taken by MLB but also spread it about the fans. We support their choices with our money. Everyone here is pretty much in agreement that some players are on the juice yet we watch the games and we spend money on hats and jerseys. We faithfully pull for our team while spending money supporting it. In doing so we are saying the same thing that MLB is. "We are not going to take any action" If you really feel that strongly about Selig being too greedy to punish anyone or you think that the Players association turn a blind eye to anything that makes the players more moeny then boycott the games. That's the only way anything will be done about it. I want a clean, fair and balanced game but am not willing to take make a statement with my money because I enjoy the game too much to stay away from. If they keep this up, however, it may be a different story. In my eyes, this could get way worse than the strike did in relation to pissing of the fans. And college baseball is looking better and better every day the MLB stands by and lets this crap keep going.

Blame the fans? Why? The fans aren't breaking federal laws prohibiting the use & possession of steroids without a prescription.

Blame the fans... is that you Jerry?

PaleHoseGeorge
02-13-2005, 09:15 AM
Blame whoever you want for the (lack of) action taken by MLB but also spread it about the fans. We support their choices with our money. ...

I would rip on this point of view (blame the fans) if I hadn't already seen it offered in print by a sportswriter, namely the Cubune's Mike Downey. His job is to write about sports to a a sports fan audience.

So when he fails to report the news fairly and accurately, who does he blame? His audience, of course. We made him do it. It's a crock of **** and the kind of mediocre thinking we all have come to know and loathe about these insufferable jerks in the Chicago sports mediocracy.

Dan Patrick came close to admitting his transgressions last week on his radio show. He admitted he wants to believe the lies and he admits he keeps believing the lies even when this own eyes are shocked by the mounting evidence. 73 home runs? From an aging and fading home run star?

You won't get anything half as honest from the Downeys of this world. They're the gatekeepers. Not even the fans right here who pour hundreds of hours of our time to build and maintain this website have the sort of access (forget about the resources) these sports mediots take for granted.

Blame it on the fans? Go soak your head.

Ol' No. 2
02-13-2005, 12:28 PM
I would rip on this point of view (blame the fans) if I hadn't already seen it offered in print by a sportswriter, namely the Cubune's Mike Downey. His job is to write about sports to a a sports fan audience.

So when he fails to report the news fairly and accurately, who does he blame? His audience, of course. We made him do it. It's a crock of **** and the kind of mediocre thinking we all have come to know and loathe about these insufferable jerks in the Chicago sports mediocracy.

Dan Patrick came close to admitting his transgressions last week on his radio show. He admitted he wants to believe the lies and he admits he keeps believing the lies even when this own eyes are shocked by the mounting evidence. 73 home runs? From an aging and fading home run star?

You won't get anything half as honest from the Downeys of this world. They're the gatekeepers. Not even the fans right here who pour hundreds of hours of our time to build and maintain this website have the sort of access (forget about the resources) these sports mediots take for granted.

Blame it on the fans? Go soak your head.While I don't agree with the "blame the fans" viewpoint, neither do I agree with "blame the sportwriters". Certainly they failed to report what was going on, and they have to accept responsibility for that. But really, is there anyone who didn't already know what was going on?

Let's keep the blame where it belongs. The owners and the players knew what was going on and most importantly, they're the ones that had the power to do something about it. Not the fans and not the sportwriters.

daveeym
02-13-2005, 05:21 PM
Baseball is like a teflon ceiling fan. When the **** finally hits the fan it's just gonna slide off and spread around and everyone's gonna get a little dirty but the game itself will survive. I imagine we'll see numbers start to decline a bit, the mounds lowered, the juiced ball era shuffled back in and some fences being moved in over the next few years (or possibly the opposite to occur, mounds raised, fences moved back and MLB to say we wanted to level out the playing field for pitchers) while at the same time a steroid policy gets adapted and changed and put into place. I imagine the strike zone will shrink or expand as well depending on how they want to explain away the lack of offense.

Some of the best known juicers are nearing the ends of their careers anyway. Stories will be told, more mistresses will be heard from and the bonds and sosas will quietly slip out of baseball. Other juicers season or two of greatness will be explained away by subsequent injuries or just a "fluke" season. The real hubbub will be when mac, bonds, sosa are up for hall of fame consideration and if the sportswriters had any balls at all, none of them get voted in.

Cubbiesuck13
02-14-2005, 01:11 AM
I would rip on this point of view (blame the fans) if I hadn't already seen it offered in print by a sportswriter, namely the Cubune's Mike Downey. His job is to write about sports to a a sports fan audience.

So when he fails to report the news fairly and accurately, who does he blame? His audience, of course. We made him do it. It's a crock of **** and the kind of mediocre thinking we all have come to know and loathe about these insufferable jerks in the Chicago sports mediocracy.

Dan Patrick came close to admitting his transgressions last week on his radio show. He admitted he wants to believe the lies and he admits he keeps believing the lies even when this own eyes are shocked by the mounting evidence. 73 home runs? From an aging and fading home run star?

You won't get anything half as honest from the Downeys of this world. They're the gatekeepers. Not even the fans right here who pour hundreds of hours of our time to build and maintain this website have the sort of access (forget about the resources) these sports mediots take for granted.

Blame it on the fans? Go soak your head.

You point out a media giant as someone who claimed some responsibility for not doing anything about the elephant in the room but still refuse to blame yourself for doing the same thing. As I said in my previous post, the owners, MLBPA and MLB should shoulder the blame but when they fail to we (including myself) should step up and stop supporting them and quit giving them our money for a product that we find huge faults with. But we don't and that is our fault (the reason I don't is because even with the faults it has I still enjoy it). How can you be so blind to this? You wouldn't shop at a store that sold something you didn't like right? You get what you pay for and for the last decade or so we have been paying for the game that brings us monster sized players and monster sized homeruns and monster sized egos and monster sized salaries and monster sized problems.

voodoochile
02-14-2005, 08:36 AM
You point out a media giant as someone who claimed some responsibility for not doing anything about the elephant in the room but still refuse to blame yourself for doing the same thing. As I said in my previous post, the owners, MLBPA and MLB should shoulder the blame but when they fail to we (including myself) should step up and stop supporting them and quit giving them our money for a product that we find huge faults with. But we don't and that is our fault (the reason I don't is because even with the faults it has I still enjoy it). How can you be so blind to this? You wouldn't shop at a store that sold something you didn't like right? You get what you pay for and for the last decade or so we have been paying for the game that brings us monster sized players and monster sized homeruns and monster sized egos and monster sized salaries and monster sized problems.

I don't think most serious students of the game are that shocked by this stuff. At least, I know I'm not. You don't haver rules against the use of steroids in the CBA or an effective testing policy and then you glorify home runs over everything else ("Chicks dig the long ball") and build huge marketing campaigns aroung the guys who hit them. Then you see salaries for big sluggers go through the roof and McGwire starts talking about andro and creatine and now people are surprised?

Casual fans might have a reason to be surprised, but there has been enough smoke to say "hey, there's a fire" for several years. Steroid suspicions have been rampant and yes here at WSI most of those suspicions have focused on a certain slugger from that other team, but you'd have to be an ostrich to think ShamME* is the only guy cheating.

I honestly wish I was more shocked by all of this, but it's been dragging on for years now. I just assumed it was going to get worse. Canseco's book (true or not) is sad, but not unexpected. People cheat. You pay the cheaters a LOT more money than the non-cheaters and guess what... more people start cheating.

It's that simple.

Baseball will survive, but they are going to probably have to do something about the records they have created. This time and asterisk would be fully justified. Otherwise, Ben Johnson is still the fastest man in the world...

PaleHoseGeorge
02-14-2005, 08:58 AM
You point out a media giant as someone who claimed some responsibility for not doing anything about the elephant in the room but still refuse to blame yourself for doing the same thing. As I said in my previous post, the owners, MLBPA and MLB should shoulder the blame but when they fail to we (including myself) should step up and stop supporting them and quit giving them our money for a product that we find huge faults with. But we don't and that is our fault (the reason I don't is because even with the faults it has I still enjoy it). How can you be so blind to this? You wouldn't shop at a store that sold something you didn't like right? You get what you pay for and for the last decade or so we have been paying for the game that brings us monster sized players and monster sized homeruns and monster sized egos and monster sized salaries and monster sized problems.

You're really veering into crackpot territory with this one.

If the players are cheating and the owners know they're cheating, and the owners and players conspire to keep the truth from the public, and the truth is hidden from the public because sportswriters refuse to use their access to bring the truth forward -- then the public is to blame? We made them do it?

You want to be an enabler? No problem. Just step right up and declare for the rest of us that McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds were the greatest of the great home run hitters in the greatest home run hitting period in baseball history. Go ahead, say it. That's when you become part of the problem and that's when you have something to apologize for.

Some of us have been railing about suspected cheats for a long long time. We're laughing our asses off at anyone who helped perpetrate this fraud. Don't count me in your number.

Rocklive99
02-14-2005, 05:11 PM
I was gonna start a thread on this but decided against it since we have this one. I hope this isn't bordering Roadhouse material, but just speculation.

Call me crazy, but I kind of believe Canseco, and think a lot of it makes sense. With all the allegations coming out, former players' admissions and the dancing around questions of others, stories heard here and other places about how it starts at the minors, explosion of numbers, hearing something like Dante Bichette on ESPN Radio last night saying that he really noticed it at the All Star Game when a majority of players had body acne and that he came close to taking them because he wanted to become HOF worthy but then didn't because his wife threatened to leave him, etc etc etc, it sounds like a lot of the players in baseball do this and a majority stick to their guns about the whole pact the secrecy of what happens in a clubhouse.

So with all that said, it really makes me question any player now (even the ones that don't look huge, I saw a special on a minor leaguer who took steroids and then commited suicide and they linked it to steroids, and he was no bigger than the average guy who works out). I know this is unfair, but especially a guy like Albert Pujols, who is obviously built and athletic, and comes from no where or single A, and now is a yearly legit MVP candidate. I know, he's a great hitter who can go to all fields and everything, but it makes me wonder if something helped him speed up. Just too bad that it's come to this, it's kind of like finding out about Santa Claus and all that, and though some people disagree, I just hope they can clean it up because I am one of those people who loves a 2-1 pitcher's duel (Unless the good pitchers are all juiced too :whiner: )

Also, I should check out the book sometime, but no time right now with all the stuff I have to read for school, post comments and anything interesting you come across.

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 05:14 PM
I was gonna start a thread on this but decided against it since we have this one. I hope this isn't bordering Roadhouse material, but just speculation.

Call me crazy, but I kind of believe Canseco, and think a lot of it makes sense. With all the allegations coming out, former players' admissions and the dancing around questions of others, stories heard here and other places about how it starts at the minors, explosion of numbers, hearing something like Dante Bichette on ESPN Radio last night saying that he really noticed it at the All Star Game when a majority of players had body acne and that he came close to taking them because he wanted to become HOF worthy but then didn't because his wife threatened to leave him, etc etc etc, it sounds like a lot of the players in baseball do this and a majority stick to their guns about the whole pact the secrecy of what happens in a clubhouse.

So with all that said, it really makes me question any player now (even the ones that don't look huge, I saw a special on a minor leaguer who took steroids and then commited suicide and they linked it to steroids, and he was no bigger than the average guy who works out). I know this is unfair, but especially a guy like Albert Pujols, who is obviously built and athletic, and comes from no where or single A, and now is a yearly legit MVP candidate. I know, he's a great hitter who can go to all fields and everything, but it makes me wonder if something helped him speed up. Just too bad that it's come to this, it's kind of like finding out about Santa Claus and all that, and though some people disagree, I just hope they can clean it up because I am one of those people who loves a 2-1 pitcher's duel (Unless the good pitchers are all juiced too :whiner: )

Also, I should check out the book sometime, but no time right now with all the stuff I have to read for school, post comments and anything interesting you come across.I would rather not get into gossiping about players where there is NO real evidence.

santo=dorf
02-14-2005, 06:39 PM
Jose's attorney is on Chicago Cubune: Live, and naturally the photo they are using is Canseco in a Sox uniform. :rolleyes:

Supposedly Frank Thomas is in the book, but Jose just talks about how he and Frank were in a Ferrari going 130 MPH, and wiping out. :o:

Rocklive99
02-14-2005, 08:14 PM
I would rather not get into gossiping about players where there is NO real evidence.

Ehh, I think it's fair for me to do, with numerous MVP winners admitting to steroids (including to a federal judge) and after all these revelations. I mean, with some it was almost obvious, but I still feel lied to after finding out the truth, and was lied to by Giambi and Bonds. Yeah, it's real unfair to the clean ones, but I'm questioning which could be the clean ones (So far all I trust is Frank, he has always been outspoken about it, and Canseco didn't name him as a user, yeah he may not be credible, but that's all I have to go by right now). Anyways, I'd also suspect Manny Ramirez (did you see all those shots way over the green monster, and a possible Juan Gonzalez connection), even though he was one of my favorite hitters :(

Cubbiesuck13
02-14-2005, 08:51 PM
You're really veering into crackpot territory with this one.

If the players are cheating and the owners know they're cheating, and the owners and players conspire to keep the truth from the public, and the truth is hidden from the public because sportswriters refuse to use their access to bring the truth forward -- then the public is to blame? We made them do it?

QUOTE]


I never said that by going to games we made them do it. When I said fans have to take some responsibility for standing by and supporting the game that was full of roids I never said that we forced it upon them. I did say that at some point when you know it's going on, and you call them out on it, and they don't do anything about it more needs to be done. They have a new steroid policy in place but what if they decided not to enforce it? What would be the next step as a fan? Would you let things be or would you say enough is enough and stop going to the games? The point of my original post was some fans are not going to go to the games if the new steroid policy is taken as a joke. There will be a fan base that wont come back, just as there was after the strike.

[QUOTE]
You want to be an enabler? No problem. Just step right up and declare for the rest of us that McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds were the greatest of the great home run hitters in the greatest home run hitting period in baseball history. Go ahead, say it. That's when you become part of the problem and that's when you have something to apologize for.

Some of us have been railing about suspected cheats for a long long time. We're laughing our asses off at anyone who helped perpetrate this fraud. Don't count me in your number.[/



I am part of the problem even though I never declared those guys were the best of all time. I am part of the problem because I support the game that refuses to address the problem. You may be laughing your ass off but you also have your head in the sand if you don't think you are just as guilty as the people who drooled over the steroid induced homer because you spent your money watching it. Note: Never said the fans should hold as much of the blame as the media or the MLB or the players.

Ol' No. 2
02-14-2005, 09:03 PM
Ehh, I think it's fair for me to do, with numerous MVP winners admitting to steroids (including to a federal judge) and after all these revelations. I mean, with some it was almost obvious, but I still feel lied to after finding out the truth, and was lied to by Giambi and Bonds. Yeah, it's real unfair to the clean ones, but I'm questioning which could be the clean ones (So far all I trust is Frank, he has always been outspoken about it, and Canseco didn't name him as a user, yeah he may not be credible, but that's all I have to go by right now). Anyways, I'd also suspect Manny Ramirez (did you see all those shots way over the green monster, and a possible Juan Gonzalez connection), even though he was one of my favorite hitters :(There are guys who are fair game, either because they've admitted it or the evidence is strong. But where I would draw the line is speculating about players where there is NO evidence. At that point it's nothing more than gossip. Where does it stop? Rowand? Konerko? Shingo?

PaleHoseGeorge
02-14-2005, 09:11 PM
I am part of the problem even though I never declared those guys were the best of all time. I am part of the problem because I support the game that refuses to address the problem. You may be laughing your ass off but you also have your head in the sand if you don't think you are just as guilty as the people who drooled over the steroid induced homer because you spent your money watching it. Note: Never said the fans should hold as much of the blame as the media or the MLB or the players.

Thanks for the explanation. It's all beginning to make sense how you reached your conclusions.

I'm "just as guilty" as the juice droolers who are less guilty as still others for reasons I'm sure you can enlighten us about in another post.

Clear as mud, really...

Nick@Nite
02-15-2005, 01:35 PM
The FBI told MLB ten years ago that their players were using steroids. However, MLB is denying it.

Report follows allegations in Canseco's book (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1992029)

All I want to know is when did Brian Cashman start working for Bud Selig?

thepaulbowski
02-15-2005, 04:29 PM
Somewhere former MLBPA chief Marvin Miller is trying to get interviews so he can keep stating that steroids do not help an athlete play baseball. The union is as much to blame as the owners on this issue.

white sox bill
02-15-2005, 04:31 PM
Hey White Sox Bill, sorry it's taken a long time to reply, but yeh, I remember those promoters! Small world! I was an NPC guy because I would do better in a weight class rather than a hight class. The Mr. Indiana University show (88) was a AAU event, and I gave up 50lbs. to the heaviest guy in the hight class! And yup, there were only a few bodybuilders that even went to IU. I won my class and lost the overall to a student from Purdue. And then there is always that big Californian dude who can ruin your day. And yeah, he kept me from a Mr. Midwest title. The judges have no sense of geography.

How many times did you compete, Bill? Any favorite memories? I trained for years with the late Pete Kutsagarous (Mr USA, Mr Universe) and that was a challenge. He was a lightheavy weight, and I was a lightwieght - and Pete made me use his wieghts. Another special time was relaxing backstage at the Mr. Illinois (88) with the guest poser, Glaydes Portuguese. She was gorgeous, smart.... and I helped her put stickem on her posing suit! I have not washed my hands since then. Once I had trained with Eddie Cohen while he was the strongest man in the world, at his gym. It was brutal.

Sorry to bore you guys.

Homer,
Yea Glades was one SMOKIN' babe! I was backstage for Corey Everson/Barry Demay one year--Corey:D: !! Anyway, don't wanna hijack thread, so I'll PM you when I get back home. I'll got a few "light" moments while competing too!

guillen4life13
02-15-2005, 11:40 PM
Thanks for the explanation. It's all beginning to make sense how you reached your conclusions.

I'm "just as guilty" as the juice droolers who are less guilty as still others for reasons I'm sure you can enlighten us about in another post.

Clear as mud, really...




Jesus Christ, get a grip!

I'm not going to go back and read the whole thread over again, but I will assume that you had an idea that steroid use was going on in the MLB before it became a topic of great public attention.

I'll use a different context to explain what CubbieSucks13 is saying. The second and third situations are hypothetical but based on truths.

Hakeem Olajuwon recently made headlines because a mosque that he founded in the Houston area donated sums of at least $80,000 to organizations posing as charities that were later found to be giving money collected through donations to terrorist organizations such as Al-Qaeda. Olajuwon claims that he did not know that this money was going into such causes. However, he has indirectly become a part of that problem. Do I place blame on him? Hell friggin' no! Did his money go into a terrorist cause? Unfortunately, yes. Now this is a very extreme example, but the parallels are there.

OR

There is a clothes company that has been under suspicion for using sweatshops in Thailand. You yourself have a feeling that this company is doing so, and you think it's wrong. Even with these suspicions, you still decide that you want to buy a pair of jeans made by this company. You have just supported a company that practices things you deem wrong. The company has made a very sizable profit off of your purchase, encouraging them to continue their practices. You are officially a part of the problem.

now, let's transition that into baseball:

You suspect (you don't know) that many major league stars are using steroids. You still go to MLB games, paying $25/ticket to see your favorite team play. The players who use steroids get bigger paychecks because their performance is better, which is because they use steroids. Their salary comes, however indirectly, from the money you spent on that ticket (among other things). So, now you, however indirectly, are a part of the problem. This is similar to the example with a clothes company. If you did not suspect that these guys were juicing (and if this is the case, your head was really in the sand on this one), then the situation is similar to Olajuwon's situation.

If you care so much about the sanctity of the game, you would stop supporting it until it cleaned up its act (at least to the point where you can feel comfortable that cheating is not rampant). Stop just dismissing Cubbiesucks as a total dumbass and spinning everything he says because his post has meaning. We are not the problem, but we are a small part of it. The owners, the MLBPA, and the players themselves are much more accountable than we are, but we still must understand that we are indirectly responsible.

I am not prepared to ween myself from baseball, and I assume none of you are prepared to do so either.

What we as fans have to do is this:

1) Write letters of outrage to any parties of importance (MLBPA, MLB, etc.).

2) Get off our high horses and resign ourselves to the very distinct possibility that some White Sox players may be using steroids. After all, it came out that Armando Rios was on the juice. He didn't look like he was a huge guy, so I've come to the conclusion that you never know who is or who isn't using this stuff.

3) Unfortunately, it may have a significant effect if we were to stop purchasing tickets. This is a double edged sword though, so I will not encourage people to do this because then JR could realistically come out and say that he had a good team put together and the fans still didn't show.

4) At the games, heckle the hell out of the obvious ones (this point is pretty obvious in itself).

Cubbiesuck13
02-16-2005, 01:12 AM
Gullien4life13, the only people who don't see what you mean are the people who don't want to. There are many groups of people to be blamed and if someone wants to leave out the fans then so be it. I think that the best thing for baseball in the long run would be for MLB to do a total 'clean house' so to speak and acually get rid of those found guilty in any medium (grand jury, MLB investigation, FBI investigation, etc...) That will not happen if no one forces them to and from the looks of it no one is going to. It may not even be legal for MLB to ban players because of info from those mediums. The new steroid policy (10 game ban if 1 failed test) won't even be in place for the start of the season (per ESPN.com) so they are bending over backwords to protect Bonds, SoSo, Sheffield and all the others who are suspected of using. The longest half life of a drug I can think of is 30 days so I doubt roids would take that long to get out of your system which means people could still be using right now! Outrageous huh? But we will still go to the games regardless. Heck, I am planning a trip with my brothers and my dad with the sole purpose to give spend money on MLB. I am as bad as everyone else, perhaps worse. But at least I know I am am a hypocrite.

guillen4life13
02-16-2005, 08:42 AM
Gullien4life13, the only people who don't see what you mean are the people who don't want to. There are many groups of people to be blamed and if someone wants to leave out the fans then so be it. I think that the best thing for baseball in the long run would be for MLB to do a total 'clean house' so to speak and acually get rid of those found guilty in any medium (grand jury, MLB investigation, FBI investigation, etc...) That will not happen if no one forces them to and from the looks of it no one is going to. It may not even be legal for MLB to ban players because of info from those mediums. The new steroid policy (10 game ban if 1 failed test) won't even be in place for the start of the season (per ESPN.com) so they are bending over backwords to protect Bonds, SoSo, Sheffield and all the others who are suspected of using. The longest half life of a drug I can think of is 30 days so I doubt roids would take that long to get out of your system which means people could still be using right now! Outrageous huh? But we will still go to the games regardless. Heck, I am planning a trip with my brothers and my dad with the sole purpose to give spend money on MLB. I am as bad as everyone else, perhaps worse. But at least I know I am am a hypocrite.

Exactly. Some people, I tell you!


Oh yeah, I'm gonna guess the 30 day half life your mentioned is the marijuana half life. That is not true. Marijuana's half life is somewhere in the 1.5 week range. It takes 28-30 days for it to not be detectable on a drug test, which is the relevant point.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-16-2005, 09:07 AM
Jesus Christ, get a grip!

I'm not going to go back and read ....

Boy, talk about needing to get a grip. :rolleyes:

Since you would rather rant than read, you'll just have to take my word that Suck wants to draw distinctions in level of guilt right up until it comes to a fan like me pissed off about this scandal and other fans Suck described as "drooling" over the home runs the steroid freaks hit. To hear Suck tell it, we're all equally guilty.

He's a real reasoned sort of guy... kind of like you.

:kukoo:

Ol' No. 2
02-16-2005, 10:14 AM
Jesus Christ, get a grip!

I'm not going to go back and read the whole thread over again, but I will assume that you had an idea that steroid use was going on in the MLB before it became a topic of great public attention.

I'll use a different context to explain what CubbieSucks13 is saying. The second and third situations are hypothetical but based on truths.

Hakeem Olajuwon recently made headlines because a mosque that he founded in the Houston area donated sums of at least $80,000 to organizations posing as charities that were later found to be giving money collected through donations to terrorist organizations such as Al-Qaeda. Olajuwon claims that he did not know that this money was going into such causes. However, he has indirectly become a part of that problem. Do I place blame on him? Hell friggin' no! Did his money go into a terrorist cause? Unfortunately, yes. Now this is a very extreme example, but the parallels are there.

OR

There is a clothes company that has been under suspicion for using sweatshops in Thailand. You yourself have a feeling that this company is doing so, and you think it's wrong. Even with these suspicions, you still decide that you want to buy a pair of jeans made by this company. You have just supported a company that practices things you deem wrong. The company has made a very sizable profit off of your purchase, encouraging them to continue their practices. You are officially a part of the problem.

now, let's transition that into baseball:

You suspect (you don't know) that many major league stars are using steroids. You still go to MLB games, paying $25/ticket to see your favorite team play. The players who use steroids get bigger paychecks because their performance is better, which is because they use steroids. Their salary comes, however indirectly, from the money you spent on that ticket (among other things). So, now you, however indirectly, are a part of the problem. This is similar to the example with a clothes company. If you did not suspect that these guys were juicing (and if this is the case, your head was really in the sand on this one), then the situation is similar to Olajuwon's situation.

If you care so much about the sanctity of the game, you would stop supporting it until it cleaned up its act (at least to the point where you can feel comfortable that cheating is not rampant). Stop just dismissing Cubbiesucks as a total dumbass and spinning everything he says because his post has meaning. We are not the problem, but we are a small part of it. The owners, the MLBPA, and the players themselves are much more accountable than we are, but we still must understand that we are indirectly responsible.

I am not prepared to ween myself from baseball, and I assume none of you are prepared to do so either.

What we as fans have to do is this:

1) Write letters of outrage to any parties of importance (MLBPA, MLB, etc.).

2) Get off our high horses and resign ourselves to the very distinct possibility that some White Sox players may be using steroids. After all, it came out that Armando Rios was on the juice. He didn't look like he was a huge guy, so I've come to the conclusion that you never know who is or who isn't using this stuff.

3) Unfortunately, it may have a significant effect if we were to stop purchasing tickets. This is a double edged sword though, so I will not encourage people to do this because then JR could realistically come out and say that he had a good team put together and the fans still didn't show.

4) At the games, heckle the hell out of the obvious ones (this point is pretty obvious in itself).This is classic "blame the victim" crap. If you weren't walking around that neighborhood after dark you wouldn't have gotten mugged, so in a way it's your fault. Horsefeathers! The responsibility lies squarely with the players who took the stuff and the owners who were so happy with all the money coming in that they gladly looked the other way. THEY are the ones who had the means to do something about it. If you think my not buying a ticket was going to have the slightest effect, you're nuts.

misty60481
02-16-2005, 10:55 AM
Add comissioners office and players union to that list

guillen4life13
02-16-2005, 05:07 PM
This is classic "blame the victim" crap. If you weren't walking around that neighborhood after dark you wouldn't have gotten mugged, so in a way it's your fault. Horsefeathers! The responsibility lies squarely with the players who took the stuff and the owners who were so happy with all the money coming in that they gladly looked the other way. THEY are the ones who had the means to do something about it. If you think my not buying a ticket was going to have the slightest effect, you're nuts.

Look. It's like voting. Your vote may have the smallest effect, but in large numbers, lots of people with little power=lots of power.

Let me also say this: I'm not blaming the fans other baseball supporters. It's not our fault. All I am saying, is that regardless of whether we want it to be so or not, our money goes into the hands of the parties who are directly responsible. That tells them that whatever they are doing is selling.

Ol' No. 2
02-16-2005, 05:41 PM
Look. It's like voting. Your vote may have the smallest effect, but in large numbers, lots of people with little power=lots of power.

Let me also say this: I'm not blaming the fans other baseball supporters. It's not our fault. All I am saying, is that regardless of whether we want it to be so or not, our money goes into the hands of the parties who are directly responsible. That tells them that whatever they are doing is selling.I see...
I bought a ticket to see the Cubs vs. Sox...so I'm responsible for Sosa beating his wife
I bought a ticket to a movie...so I'm responsible for the lifestyle choices of the actors
I bought a ticket to a rock concert...so I'm responsible for the musicians' drug use

Omigod...I just realized...I bought a ticket to watch O. J. Simpson!!!!!

Aiiieeeee!!!!!

guillen4life13
02-16-2005, 06:22 PM
I see...
I bought a ticket to see the Cubs vs. Sox...so I'm responsible for Sosa beating his wife
I bought a ticket to a movie...so I'm responsible for the lifestyle choices of the actors
I bought a ticket to a rock concert...so I'm responsible for the musicians' drug use

Omigod...I just realized...I bought a ticket to watch O. J. Simpson!!!!!

Aiiieeeee!!!!!

Yep. It's all your fault. 100% of the blame rests squarely on your shoulders for all of these problems.

1. Does Sosa beating his wife directly influence his on the field play, which is what we see and pay for? No. Does his alleged steroid use? Yes. What are we buying? Tickets to see him hit a homerun with his steroid aided biceps, or beat his wife? What does he get his money for doing?

2. Do the lifestyle choices of actors directly influence the product they make (movies)? Again, no.

3. The musician issue may be closest to the baseball issue. I myself am a very serious musician so I'm going to be as objective as possible on this. It's a reality that most famous (or otherwise) acts are not exactly the type that buy into the "Just Say No" thing. It may or may not influence the creativity of the artists. Some claim it does, so we will assume that it does. Then yes, by supporting their music, you are INDIRECTLY encouraging their addiction. Are you to blame? As I said earlier, hell friggin no! Do you enjoy the products that these guys produce? Yes. However, are you contributing to the problem, however indirectly? Yes. But here's a little difference: most, if not all of these musicians who use drugs harbor addictions. Most of them have tried to shed these addictions, and of those, most of them have failed. These addictions are products of stupid mistakes that they made when they were younger--mistakes they wish they had never made. They hate their addiction but the drug is, by their perception when they are withdrawn, what keeps them sane.

As far as I know, steroids are not psychologically or physically addictive, or if they are, the symptoms don't even come close to rivaling those of cocaine, heroin, meth or alcohol. That is why I have much less sympathy for a long term steroid abuser than a long term drug abuser.


Getting back to the point:
It's called boycotting--you stop supporting a product or organization that does something that you don't agree with. Once a company realizes that what it is doing is hurting sales, it has no choice but to reform itself. If you need examples, consult your nearest American history book that mentions Martin Luther King Jr.


If you decide that you don't want to even make an attempt to see the rationale behind what we are trying to say, then there's nothing more I can do.

Ol' No. 2
02-16-2005, 09:10 PM
Yep. It's all your fault. 100% of the blame rests squarely on your shoulders for all of these problems.

1. Does Sosa beating his wife directly influence his on the field play, which is what we see and pay for? No. Does his alleged steroid use? Yes. What are we buying? Tickets to see him hit a homerun with his steroid aided biceps, or beat his wife? What does he get his money for doing?

2. Do the lifestyle choices of actors directly influence the product they make (movies)? Again, no.

3. The musician issue may be closest to the baseball issue. I myself am a very serious musician so I'm going to be as objective as possible on this. It's a reality that most famous (or otherwise) acts are not exactly the type that buy into the "Just Say No" thing. It may or may not influence the creativity of the artists. Some claim it does, so we will assume that it does. Then yes, by supporting their music, you are INDIRECTLY encouraging their addiction. Are you to blame? As I said earlier, hell friggin no! Do you enjoy the products that these guys produce? Yes. However, are you contributing to the problem, however indirectly? Yes. But here's a little difference: most, if not all of these musicians who use drugs harbor addictions. Most of them have tried to shed these addictions, and of those, most of them have failed. These addictions are products of stupid mistakes that they made when they were younger--mistakes they wish they had never made. They hate their addiction but the drug is, by their perception when they are withdrawn, what keeps them sane.

As far as I know, steroids are not psychologically or physically addictive, or if they are, the symptoms don't even come close to rivaling those of cocaine, heroin, meth or alcohol. That is why I have much less sympathy for a long term steroid abuser than a long term drug abuser.


Getting back to the point:
It's called boycotting--you stop supporting a product or organization that does something that you don't agree with. Once a company realizes that what it is doing is hurting sales, it has no choice but to reform itself. If you need examples, consult your nearest American history book that mentions Martin Luther King Jr.


If you decide that you don't want to even make an attempt to see the rationale behind what we are trying to say, then there's nothing more I can do.Listen, sonny, I don't need to consult a history book. I was there. I've logged more miles of protests, sit-ins, marches and boycots than you'll ever see.

But I'll try this one more time with an example in the hopes that this time I'll get through, because this is important way beyond baseball.

Suppose I buy a ticket to a dogfight. Dogs get injured and killed at dogfights. That's what I'm paying for - to have the dogs fight, injure and kill each other so that I can watch. Am I responsible for the abuse of these animals? You bet I am. I'm not paying to watch the dogs dance. The abuse is a fundamental and inseparable part of the dogfight that I'm paying for.

When I buy a ticket to a baseball game, am I paying to see them shoot up with steroids? Hell, no. I'm paying to watch a baseball game. Steroids are NOT a fundamental and inseparable part of baseball. In fact, it's AGAINST THE RULES. Even when there were no formal rules against it, it was still generally understood to be against the rules. Why do you think they hid it? I am in no way, shape or form responsible for these players personal choices.

If you want to boycot baseball, knock yourself out. If everyone did it for just one day, there's no doubt MLB would get the message, but I'm not holding my breath. But not boycotting doesn't make you responsible for what goes on. It's about personal responsibility, and you're turning personal responsibility on its head.

guillen4life13
02-16-2005, 11:21 PM
Listen, sonny, I don't need to consult a history book. I was there. I've logged more miles of protests, sit-ins, marches and boycots than you'll ever see.

But I'll try this one more time with an example in the hopes that this time I'll get through, because this is important way beyond baseball.

Suppose I buy a ticket to a dogfight. Dogs get injured and killed at dogfights. That's what I'm paying for - to have the dogs fight, injure and kill each other so that I can watch. Am I responsible for the abuse of these animals? You bet I am. I'm not paying to watch the dogs dance. The abuse is a fundamental and inseparable part of the dogfight that I'm paying for.

When I buy a ticket to a baseball game, am I paying to see them shoot up with steroids? Hell, no. I'm paying to watch a baseball game. Steroids are NOT a fundamental and inseparable part of baseball. In fact, it's AGAINST THE RULES. Even when there were no formal rules against it, it was still generally understood to be against the rules. Why do you think they hid it? I am in no way, shape or form responsible for these players personal choices.

If you want to boycot baseball, knock yourself out. If everyone did it for just one day, there's no doubt MLB would get the message, but I'm not holding my breath. But not boycotting doesn't make you responsible for what goes on. It's about personal responsibility, and you're turning personal responsibility on its head.

I see your point, and I meant no offense when I said "consult a history book."

The bottom line is that, rules or not, athletes have gotten the message that using steroids can either get them a major league slot, or significantly increase their salaries because of their on the field performance boost and the financial value it has to the team.

Your analogy to dogfights is valid. I see where you're coming from when you say that it's different from steroids, but let me just tell you where I'm coming from, then I'll just drop this whole issue. We aren't paying to see them inject themselves with steroids. We are paying to see the results of them injecting themselves with steroids.

For the steroid using ballplayer or the club that knows and does not do anything to prevent steroid use, it's like this:

steroids=better/flashier on the field performance=more fans=higher revenue+advertisement deals=fatter paycheck=more concieved happiness

The more fans part is where we fit in. Regardless of whether we knew it was going on or not, a very small fraction of our money went to that steroid using ballplayer or official who didn't do anything to prevent or stop the steroid use.

If/when Sammy Sosa gets exposed for the juicer that we all think he is, I can easily see his excuse (just like the corked bat excuse) being, "I did it to put a show on for the fans." However despicable it is for him to blame it on us, the fact remains that the fans bought into it and he got bloody rich off of it. If that isn't encouragement to continue doing it, then I don't know what is. Is it our fault that his ethics are completely up the wazoo? No. That's his fault, and his alone. Is it the fans' fault that, even with all of the evidence (suddenly becoming so muscular, acne, tantrums, etc.), they still continued to support the balloonhead? Sadly, yes.

Sox fans are in a somewhat different position because there are no known steroid users on our team, nor are there any on whom legitimate suspicions could be cast. The closest is probably Konerko, and that's probably a longshot. However, Cubs fans buying into all of the Sosa hype, and fans nationwide buying into all of the Bonds hype was encouragement, whether we like it or not.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't blame the fans nor do I hold them accountable for the state of affairs on this issue.

I've also said before that I don't think I'm capable of giving up/boycotting baseball longterm. Like CubbieSucks, I'm saying that this is just the way things are, and I'm not prepared to make a personal sacrifice to change things because my part in the whole equation is so miniscule.

I just want to reiterate this one more time: I am not blaming the fans for the current situation. I don't even want to portray the fans in a negative light because it's not something they/we deserve. What I am saying, is that whether we knew it or not, our money was contributing to it. We were scammed just like Olajuwon was scammed. We aren't at fault, but we got conned and our money fueled unethical practices.

The fact that MLB execs have still not taken serious measures to crack down on this epidemic shows how much regard they have for their rules. They're only rules if they're enforced. Somehow they need to get the message loud and clear so that they may finally take it seriously.

I think that maybe even a single day boycott of MLB would be a good thing. As you said, they would definitely get the message, and we aren't making too big a sacrifice to do something like that.

Wow. Think about how much money they could lose if all 30 parks were empty for one day.

Lets say the average price of a ticket leaguewide is around $25. Average seating capacity of a park is 40000.

30x40,000x25=30,000,000. Factor in the lost concession sales and you are talking even bigger bucks. Obviously a completely empty park is unrealistic, but if there's only a 20% turnout leaguewide, that would mean a loss of 24mil.

Again, No. 2, I see where you're coming from, but I think we both look at it slightly differently.

Jjav829
02-16-2005, 11:35 PM
I don't know where to put this, so I figured I'd just add it to this thread. A little while back I saw a TV special about celebrities using a certain workout program to tone/build muscle and get in great shape. Intrigued by this, and after seeing the results, I decided to buy the book to see if I can get similar results. Well the book, titled Hot Point Fitness, came in the mail today. I just read the back of the book and it has quotes by a few MLB players who had some good years; Jeff Cirillo and Jeffrey Hammonds. This is what they say.


"Whatever your needs, this book will outline a personal workout program that will improve your physical and mental performance." - Jeff Cirillo, All-Star, Seattle Mariners

"These routines are like nothing I have experienced on the collegiate or even professional level. Zim's specially-designed program helped me put some power behind my swing, and as a consequences, I hit more home runs last season than I ever hit in my life." -Jeffrey Hammonds, All-Star, Milwaukee Brewers

Of course, the fact that they are listed as All-Stars on this is quite amazing, but it was the Hammonds quote that caught my eye. In fairness, the year he is talking about, which was the best of his career, also came in Coors. I'm sure that helped tremendously. It really makes you wonder how many players owe their success to a strict workout program such as this, and how many are getting some extra help. I just thought the quote was kind of interesting.

Ol' No. 2
02-16-2005, 11:46 PM
I see your point, and I meant no offense when I said "consult a history book."

The bottom line is that, rules or not, athletes have gotten the message that using steroids can either get them a major league slot, or significantly increase their salaries because of their on the field performance boost and the financial value it has to the team.

Your analogy to dogfights is valid. I see where you're coming from when you say that it's different from steroids, but let me just tell you where I'm coming from, then I'll just drop this whole issue. We aren't paying to see them inject themselves with steroids. We are paying to see the results of them injecting themselves with steroids.

For the steroid using ballplayer or the club that knows and does not do anything to prevent steroid use, it's like this:

steroids=better/flashier on the field performance=more fans=higher revenue+advertisement deals=fatter paycheck=more concieved happiness

The more fans part is where we fit in. Regardless of whether we knew it was going on or not, a very small fraction of our money went to that steroid using ballplayer or official who didn't do anything to prevent or stop the steroid use.

If/when Sammy Sosa gets exposed for the juicer that we all think he is, I can easily see his excuse (just like the corked bat excuse) being, "I did it to put a show on for the fans." However despicable it is for him to blame it on us, the fact remains that the fans bought into it and he got bloody rich off of it. If that isn't encouragement to continue doing it, then I don't know what is. Is it our fault that his ethics are completely up the wazoo? No. That's his fault, and his alone. Is it the fans' fault that, even with all of the evidence (suddenly becoming so muscular, acne, tantrums, etc.), they still continued to support the balloonhead? Sadly, yes.

Sox fans are in a somewhat different position because there are no known steroid users on our team, nor are there any on whom legitimate suspicions could be cast. The closest is probably Konerko, and that's probably a longshot. However, Cubs fans buying into all of the Sosa hype, and fans nationwide buying into all of the Bonds hype was encouragement, whether we like it or not.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't blame the fans nor do I hold them accountable for the state of affairs on this issue.

I've also said before that I don't think I'm capable of giving up/boycotting baseball longterm. Like CubbieSucks, I'm saying that this is just the way things are, and I'm not prepared to make a personal sacrifice to change things because my part in the whole equation is so miniscule.

I just want to reiterate this one more time: I am not blaming the fans for the current situation. I don't even want to portray the fans in a negative light because it's not something they/we deserve. What I am saying, is that whether we knew it or not, our money was contributing to it. We were scammed just like Olajuwon was scammed. We aren't at fault, but we got conned and our money fueled unethical practices.

The fact that MLB execs have still not taken serious measures to crack down on this epidemic shows how much regard they have for their rules. They're only rules if they're enforced. Somehow they need to get the message loud and clear so that they may finally take it seriously.

I think that maybe even a single day boycott of MLB would be a good thing. As you said, they would definitely get the message, and we aren't making too big a sacrifice to do something like that.

Wow. Think about how much money they could lose if all 30 parks were empty for one day.

Lets say the average price of a ticket leaguewide is around $25. Average seating capacity of a park is 40000.

30x40,000x25=30,000,000. Factor in the lost concession sales and you are talking even bigger bucks. Obviously a completely empty park is unrealistic, but if there's only a 20% turnout leaguewide, that would mean a loss of 24mil.

Again, No. 2, I see where you're coming from, but I think we both look at it slightly differently.If there was to be a one-day boycott so that the fans could voice their opinion on the shameful state the players and owners have put baseball in, I'd gladly join. If I thought it would make a difference, I'd burn my opening day tickets on the corner of 35th and Shields. But I'm not holding my breath.

As for the doofus fans who turned a blind eye to what was so obvious so they could swoon over Scammy Sosa and his ridiculous act, there really is a sucker born every minute and I've long since stopped worrying about them. No, those who could see all along what was going on weren't scammed. But sometimes you have no choice but to take the bad with the good. I go to see baseball. The fortunate part is that as much as they try, the cheats and money-grabbers can't ruin it. With all its flaws, it's still a beautiful game. And it will survive.

guillen4life13
02-17-2005, 08:23 AM
And it will survive.

I damn well hope so. I don't want to see the MLB turn into the NHL. When does this CBA expire again? 2006, right?

Ol' No. 2
02-17-2005, 10:45 AM
I damn well hope so. I don't want to see the MLB turn into the NHL. When does this CBA expire again? 2006, right?The CBA runs through 2006. But they can't afford to wait that long to get serious about the problem. The current testing program looks good only in comparison to the joke they had before. It's a fig leaf. They test for only certain steroids (and they provide a list so everyone knows which ones are safe), there's no blood test, which is needed to detect HGH and some others, and the penalties are still too weak. There are well-established protocols for international sports. MLB needs to align their program with those.